网友讨论:日本咖喱由英国人引入日本,咖喱在日本被归为西方菜肴
2021-07-03 wuhaowsh 11109
正文翻译


Curry is a variety of dishes originating in the Indian subcontinent that use a complex combination of spices or herbs, usually including ground turmeric, cumin, coriander, ginger, and fresh or dried chilies. In southern India, where the word originated, curry leaves, from the curry tree, are also an integral ingredient.Turmeric is known as the main spice in curry, which has a warm, bitter taste and is frequently used to flavor or color curry powders, mustards, butters, and cheeses.Curry is generally prepared in a sauce.

咖喱是一种起源于印度次大陆的菜肴,使用复杂的香料或草药组合,通常包括磨碎的姜黄,孜然,香菜,生姜,新鲜或干的辣椒。在印度南部,这个词的起源,咖喱叶,从咖喱树上摘下来的,也是一个不可或缺的成分。姜黄是众所周知的咖喱的主要香料,它有一种温和的、苦的味道,经常用于给咖喱粉、芥末、黄油和奶酪调味,咖喱通常是用酱料做的。

评论翻译
Gemmabeta
Japanese Curry started out in the Imperial Japanese Navy in the late 1800s. The naval rations of the day was almost entirely white rice*, and the diet was giving sailors and soldiers beriberi (thiamine/vitamin B1 deficiency). In the worst days, at any given time, about 1/4 to 1/3 of the IJN naval personnel were slowly dying of beriberi. If you are on a long voyage, the captain was basically in race to finish his mission and get his men back on land before they were all incapacitated. In the Russo-Japanese War, 27k Japanese personnel died of beriberi, compared 47k who died in combat.
English-style curry was cheap, and it contained enough flour and meat to provide sufficient thiamine. Friday is still curry day in the modern Japanese Navy.

日本咖喱起源于19世纪末的日本帝国海军。海军当天的口粮几乎全是白米,这种饮食会导致水手和士兵患脚气病(硫胺素/维生素B1缺乏症)。在任何时候,在最糟糕的日子里,大约1/4到1/3的海军人员都因脚气病而慢慢死去。如果你在一次长途航行中,船长基本上都在努力完成他的任务,在他的船员全部丧失行动能力之前把他们带回陆地。在日俄战争中,有2.7万日本人死于脚气病,而在战斗中死亡的人数为4.7万人。
英式咖喱很便宜,而且含有足够的面粉和肉来提供足够的硫胺素。在现代日本海军中,星期五仍然是海军咖喱日。

SuperCarbideBros
I can't remember where I read this and it seems to be pretty anecdotal, but back when Japan just finished the Meiji Restoration, many poor farmer boys decided to join the military so they can be well fed, mostly by processed white rice because that apparently was the shit to them. When they were provided with cooked wheat berries or something of the "whole grain" nature, they refused because that was considered as the sub-par food for the poor.
There was also a debate between two schools of doctors (from the IJA and the IJN, respectively) on the cause of beriberi. The IJA believed that it was bacterial, and the IJN believed that it was nutritional. Long story short, the Navy got rid of beriberi while the Army suffered from it for a longer period of time.
I also heard that the IJN chose curry over other type of food because on a rocking ship in the ocean, the thick sauce makes it difficult to spill over.

它似乎是很有趣的,当日本刚刚明治维新时,许多贫困的农民男孩决定加入军队,这样他们可以衣食无忧了,吃的大部分是经过加工的白米。当给他们提供煮熟的小麦浆果或“全谷物”性质的食物时,他们会拒绝,因为这被认为是穷人的次等食物。
关于脚气病的起因,两所医学院(分别来自IJA和IJN)也进行了辩论。IJA(日本帝国陆军)认为它是细菌,IJN(日本帝国海军)认为它有营养。长话短说,海军摆脱了脚气病,而陆军却长期遭受脚气病的折磨。
我还听说IJN选择咖喱而不是其他类型的食物,因为在海上摇晃的船上,浓稠的酱汁很难溢出来。

windingtime
I'm not a food historian, but I wonder if that's why japanese curry has a bit of a western brown gravy taste to it.

我不是一个食物历史学家,但我想知道为什么日本咖喱有一点西方棕色肉汁的味道。

Gemmabeta
Japanese curry was originally a dish served in the Japanese navy to deal with beri-beri (low thiamine/Vitamin B1)--wheat flour contained lots of thiamine so they would put a crap-ton of the stuff in there and basically turn the curry sauce into a butter-roux.
People like the taste, and that stuck over the century.

日本咖喱最初是日本海军供应的一道菜,用来对付低硫胺素/维生素B1——小麦粉中含有大量的硫胺素,所以他们会在里面放上大量的小麦粉,基本上把咖喱酱变成了面粉糊。
人们喜欢这种味道,这种味道延续了一个世纪。

pucklermuskau
yeah, i'm so used to thai and indian approaches to curry, japanese curry is a different beast altogether.

是的,我非常习惯泰国和印度的咖喱,日本的咖喱是完全不同的。

ConeCandy
I had some sort of brown curry with a pork cutlet in Japan and it was the best curry I'd ever had and I have no idea how to replicate it or where to get it in California. I tried some boxed japanese curry, but it wasn't the same at all. What I had in Japan was super creamy and much like a gravy.

我在日本吃了一种棕色咖喱配猪排,这是我吃过的最好的咖喱,我不知道如何做,也不知道在加州哪里可以买到。我试过盒装的日本咖喱,但一点都不一样,我在日本吃的咖喱奶油味很浓,很像肉汁。

DauntlessFencer93
Yeah it tastes like beef stew to my American palate. I love it (not a fan of Indian curry).
Edit: by saying Indian curry, I’m mostly talking about anything that tastes like the curry powder you can buy from local grocery stores. Wikipedia says it’s A mix of coriander, turmeric, cumin, fenugreek, and chili peppers. I don’t like that taste.

对我的美国味蕾来说,它尝起来像炖牛肉。我喜欢它(不喜欢印度咖喱)。说到印度咖喱,我主要是指任何味道像咖喱粉的东西,你可以在当地的杂货店买到。维基百科上说它是香菜、姜黄、孜然、胡芦巴和红辣椒的混合物。我不喜欢那种味道。

MarineHauptmann
The Brits have always had a thing for the spices which make up a curry. In fact, the shift towards blander food in Europe was in the 1600s because the French upper class didn’t like that new trade routes with India meant that the poor could gasp afford to buy cardamom and cinnamon!!! So it became “proper” to use as little spice as humanly possible to show your wealth. “Look, My meat is of such high quality I don’t need to marinade it” was the idea.

英国人对咖喱的调味料总是情有独钟,事实上,欧洲转向更清淡的食物是在17世纪,因为法国上层阶级不喜欢与印度的新贸易路线,这意味着穷人可以买得起豆蔻和肉桂!因此,尽可能少用香料来显示你的财富就成了“恰当”的做法。他们的想法是:“看,我的肉这么好,不需要腌制。”

Bararaatekwar
People give britain shit about bland food. But I lived by the Curry mile for a couple of months and they were the best tasting months if my life.

人们对英国人的淡而无味的食物嗤之以鼻。但我吃了几个月的咖喱,那是我这辈子最美味的几个月。

Asher_the_atheist
This startled me when I visited England as a teenager. There we were, eating dinner at the hotel, only to be served curry! I was quite a Francophile as a kid, so a lot of what I saw in England genuinely took me by surprise. I’ve now happily joined the Anglophile ranks.

当我十几岁访问英国时,这让我很吃惊。我们就在那里,在酒店吃晚餐,结果却吃到了咖喱!我小时候非常喜欢法国,所以我在英国看到的很多东西都让我大吃一惊。我现在很高兴地加入了亲英派的行列。

crooktimber
Indian-derived food for sure. As a white male brit I've had veg curry and rice more than any other meal by a long distance. Literally thousands of curries. I bloody love it.

当然是来自印度的食物。作为一名英国白人男性,我吃蔬菜咖喱和米饭的次数远远超过其他任何一餐,成千上万的咖喱,我太喜欢了。

RappScallion73
And Japan makes some damn good curry. If you haven't tried some good Tonkatsu with curry then you are missing out.

日本的咖喱也很好吃。如果你还没有尝过一些美味的咖喱豆腐,那你就错过了这道美食。
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pippydigg
Tonkatsu is delicious and tastes like it’s come straight out of a british chippy

炸猪排很美味,尝起来就像直接从英国快餐店里拿出来的一样

ShootyMcStabbyface
Had spicy miso katsu curry in Nagoya and still think about it. A lot.

在名古屋吃过辣味咖喱,现在还在想吃。

PapaRacoon
Well India is still west I suppose. Also depends what curry, some U.K. Indian food is not authentic Indian dishes

我想印度还是属于西方,也要看咖喱是什么,一些英国的印度菜不是真正的印度菜

ataacc0091
90% of dishes would be western for the Japanese haha

对日本人来说,90%的菜肴都是西式的,哈哈

gogoluke
All countries adapt food though. It might not a "authentic" but that does not mean it is inferior... thoufh to be honest you can get some horrible horrible gloopy shit. There are a lot of very good curries in Britain and British style curry has been increasing in popularity in India as well as interest in recipes - more indians, look at the UK curry site Mamtas Kitchen than Brits.
No one would say a Katsu curry was "inauthentic" in Britain - its a Japanese version of an indian dish, so its odd that so many Brits have to feal that a well made Tikka Massala is "inauthentic"

所有国家都对食物进行了改造。它可能不是“正宗的”,但这并不意味着它是劣质的……虽然说实话,你可以得到一些可怕的黏糊糊的大便。英国有很多好吃的咖喱,英式咖喱在印度越来越受欢迎,人们对食谱也越来越感兴趣——看看英国咖喱网站Mamtas Kitchen,印度人比英国人还多。
在英国,没有人会说日式咖喱是“不正宗的”,因为这是印度菜的日本版,所以奇怪的是,这么多英国人不得不认为做得很好的红咖喱是“不正宗的”。

DangerousCalm
I'd say baltis are a distinctly British dish as they developed in and around Birmingham and catered for British tastes.
Some curry recipes have existed in Britain longer than recipes for coq au vin in France.

我想说baltis(巴尔蒂锅菜)是一道独特的英国菜,因为它们是在伯明翰和周边地区发展起来的,是为英国人的口味而制作的。
有些咖喱食谱在英国出现的时间比法国的红葡萄酒还要长。

FrighteningJibber
I’ve heard Scottish Indian food is it’s own category all on its own.

我听说苏格兰印度菜有自己的特色。

more_beans_mrtaggart
Some Indian curry dishes aren’t authentic Indian curry dishes. Some were created by the British to suit their (more meaty) requirements, and still eaten there today.

一些印度咖喱菜不是真正的印度咖喱菜。有些是英国人为了满足他们(更多肉)的需求而创造的,至今仍在那里食用。

PineapplePandaKing
It wasn't until my teenage years that I was introduced to Indian curries. I just thought Japanese curry was the standard. I love all versions but Japanese curry holds a special place in my heart! I always have a stockpile of Golden Curry in the pantry

直到我十几岁的时候,我才接触到印度咖喱。我还以为日式咖喱是标准的呢。我喜欢所有的版本,但是日本咖喱在我心中占有特殊的位置!我总是在食品柜里储备一些金色的咖喱

CardAnarchist
Funny story.. I was traveling in Japan and I met this extremely awesome German guy. He had been to Japan a bunch of times and was showing me around some cool spots in Tokyo. He said there was this amazing curry place we had to try, I think it was Coco Ichibanya. I don't mind curry so I said sure. We go to the place, order some dishes and tuck in. He is LOVING it. "It's nothing like regular curry is it?! It's so much better!". All I taste is completely fine but regular curry like I've had a million times before in the UK. I just smiled.

有个有趣的事……我在日本旅行时遇到了一个非常棒的德国人。他去过日本很多次,带我参观了东京一些很酷的地方。他说有一个很棒的咖喱店,我们必须尝试一下,我想是Coco Ichibanya餐厅。我不介意咖喱,所以我说没问题。我们去了那个地方,点了一些菜,大吃起来,他很喜欢,“它一点也不像普通的咖喱,是吗?”“这样好多了!”我吃的都很好,其实只是普通的咖喱,就像我以前在英国吃过的一样,我只是对他笑了笑。

lawrencelewillows
Did it taste like chip shop curry? Katsu curry reminds me of it

它尝起来像薯条店的咖喱吗?咖喱让我想起了它

infodawg
Most curry I've had in Japanese restaurants (in the pacific northwest) doesn't have that traditional curry flavor that people associate. It's more of a mild sauce, not bad but not what you'd expect.

我在日本餐馆吃过的大多数咖喱都没有人们联想到的那种传统咖喱味,这是一种温和的酱料,味道不错,但不是你想的那样。
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opisska
I had curry in Japan, in a local place, and it was indeed mild and different to what an Indian restaurant will serve me in Europe (never been to India). But it was still a nice thing to have, a familiar dish in a sea of weird things.

我在日本当地吃过咖喱,味道确实很清淡,和我在欧洲(从没去过印度)的印度餐馆吃的不一样。但这仍然是一件美好的事情,在一大堆奇怪的东西中有一道熟悉的菜。

Revydown
Maybe it was adapted to that region's tastes, like how american chinese food is really sweet?

也许是为了适应那个地区的口味,比如美国的中国菜真的很甜?

teenagealex
The best Indian food I’ve ever had was at a British Indian cafe in Tokyo. I still dream of it.

我吃过的最好的印度菜是在东京的一家英印咖啡馆,我仍然梦想着它。

HumanTuna
In the UK curry is so popular that I forget that it is Indian. Curry restaurants (curry houses) outnumber any other cuisine at least 1:5 where I live {that's a good thing).
I am always surprised as a Brit abroad (in Europe) at the lack of Indian food (the tastiest food),.

在英国,咖喱太受欢迎了,我都忘了这是印度菜了。咖喱餐厅比其他任何菜式的餐厅都多,在我住的地方至少1:5(这是一件好事)
作为一个在国外(在欧洲)的英国人,我总是对印度食物(最美味的食物)的缺乏感到惊讶。

oreopocky
That's hilarious because the national dish of Japan is basically curry rice

这很好笑,因为日本的国菜基本上就是咖喱饭

Informal_Drawing
Pretty much the same for Britain too.

英国的情况也差不多。

meowthechow
There was a while religion that spread from India to japan much befor that

在那之前有一段时间,宗教从印度传到了日本

Tactical_Moonstone
But mostly because it was a cascading effect where Japan got to adopt it because China and Korea adopted it first. If the Chinese and Koreans didn't adopt Buddhism there was basically no chance for Buddhism to take hold in Japan. There's a reason you don't really see ethnic Japanese Hindus.

但主要是因为这是一种连锁效应,因为中国和韩国首先采用了它,日本才采用了它。如果中国人和韩国人不接受佛教,基本上就没有机会在日本扎根。因此你没有真正看到日本的印度教徒是有原因的。
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The-disgracist
Just got a Japanese curry place in my town. It is a hearty and delicious meal. it’s really good.

我镇上刚开了家日式咖喱店。这是一顿丰盛可口的饭菜。非常好。

Exact_Coat_403
And now somehow in Britain, Japanese style curry is served by Chinese restaurants.

如今,不知何故,在英国,中国餐馆也开始供应日式咖喱了。
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Eat_my_farts__
I wonder how it ended up in Thailand, Thai red curry is my fav curry.

我想知道它是怎么在泰国结束的,泰国红咖喱是我最喜欢的咖喱。

GenericAirBender
Thailand has always been in the Indosphere, the region of the world dominated by Indian influence. Their writing system even comes from India.

泰国一直处于印度圈,即由印度主导的世界区域。他们的书写体系甚至来自印度。

harrisonisdead
Yellow curry (with tofu, sweet potatoes, and regular potatoes, sometimes with various other veggies) is my ultimate comfort food. A local Thai place that I've frequented for years makes the best bowl of yellow curry. I also buy large containers of curry paste to make it at home and while it's not as good as at the restaurant, it still tastes great and is fairly simple to make.
I'm under the impression that Thai curries are different than the India-originating curries that people usually associate with the word, though. What we call "Thai curry" is called "kaeng" in Thailand, while they reserve the word curry (kari) for Indian-style curries.

黄咖喱(加上豆腐、甘薯和普通土豆,有时还加上各种蔬菜)是我的终极安慰食物。我多年来经常光顾的一家泰国当地餐馆做的黄咖喱最好吃。我还买了大盒的咖喱酱在家里做,虽然不像在餐馆做得那么好,但味道很好,做起来也相当简单。
我的印象是,泰国咖喱和人们通常联想到这个词的印度咖喱不同。我们所说的“泰国咖喱”在泰国被称为“kaeng”,而他们保留的词咖喱(kari),是印度风格的咖喱。

jesuschin
Japanese curry is my favorite

日本咖喱是我的最爱

Lord_Gaben_
I mean, India is western to the Japanese

我的意思是,印度对日本来说是西方的国家

Skvora
Rather Japan adjusted the spice blend to suit their mild palette since indian curry was way too strong.

相反,日本调整了香料的混合以适应他们温和的调味,因为印度咖喱太烈了。

PlatinumJester
There's a pretty good chance that it was already adjusted for a milder palette by the British as modern curry powder is a British invention for just that purpose. It's also an often used ingredient in Japanese Curry.

很有可能,英国人已经将咖喱粉调整为一种温和的味道,因为现代咖喱粉正是出于这个目,并且由英国人发明的。它也是日本咖喱的常用配料。

put_on_the_mask
No, the British simplified and adjusted it, creating curry powder and the idea that "curry" was a distinct dish rather than just a word for "sauce". The result of that was then introduced to Japan, which is why Japanese curry tastes a lot like the curry sauce you get in British chip shops.

英国人简化和调整了它,创造了咖喱粉,并认为“咖喱”是一种独特的菜肴,而不仅仅是“酱”。创造出来的咖喱粉被引入了日本,这就是为什么日本咖喱尝起来很像你在英国薯片店买到的咖喱酱一样。

HimejiWataru
The title isn't quite right in saying "Curry in Japan is categorized as a Western dish." As the wiki page says, it was categorized as a Western dish. It very much is not anymore as it's been adapted so much since being introduced to the country. It's considered to be one of Japan's national dishes.

标题说的“咖喱在日本被归类为西方菜肴”不太对。就像维基百科上说的那样,它被归类为一种西餐。自从它被引进这个国家以来,它已经被改编得很好了。它被认为是日本国菜之一。

PM_YOUR_BOOBS_PLS_
Go to Japan. Curry is absolutely considered a Japanese dish, and it's fucking everywhere.

去日本,咖喱绝对是日本菜,到处都是。

Needleroozer
If you order Mexican food in Japan, they substitute curry for chiles. Spicy is spicy, but there's twenty words for "salty." Japan, don't ever change.

如果你在日本点墨西哥菜,他们会用咖喱代替辣椒。“辣”就是“辣”,但是“咸”有二十个字,日本,永远不会改变。

CheeseburgerKarma94
Japanese Curry recipes are delicious. Entirely different taste from Indian/Pakistani recipes. I’m a huge fan.
That being said, I’ve never had it served from a restaurant, only ever made it myself.

日本咖喱很美味。完全不同于印度/巴基斯坦的味道。我是日本咖喱的超级粉丝。
话虽这么说,但我从来没有在餐馆里吃过,只是自己做过。
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lewax00
I've joked before that Japanese curry is making a basic stew then throwing in some curry roux at the end...

我以前开玩笑说日本咖喱只是做基本的炖菜,然后在最后放一些咖喱面粉糊…

Starman562
I mean, with it being Japan, aren't all non-Japanese dishes Western dishes?

我的意思是,既然是日本,那么所有的非日本菜不都是西方菜吗?
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freelanceredditor
Well... the whole entire world is west of japan

嗯…整个世界都在日本的西边

detomato
It shouldn't be called as curry at all as it's really a different thing.

它不应该被称为咖喱,因为它是完全不同的东西

literally_dumb
Well Japan is Eastern most country, it kinda makes sense.

日本是最东方的国家,这有点道理

bluemarketbear
Maybe that's because India is west of Japan?

也许是因为印度在日本的西边?

Revlis-TK421
I'd argue that at this point Japanese curry is so divorced from Indian curry as to be an entirely unique food stuff. Pretty sure if you served Japanese curry to just about anyone on the subcontinent they'd ask what it was, and then ask for some spice.

在这一点上,我认为日本咖喱与印度咖喱是彼此分离的,以至于成为一种完全独特的食物。我敢肯定,如果你给印度大陆上的任何人提供日式咖喱,他们会问你这是什么,然后问你要一些香料。

13foxtrotter
It’s amazing and indeed tastes very western

日本咖喱味道非常棒,尝起来确实很西方化

wolfmanpraxis
Curry is considered a western dish in India as well
There are Koftas and Masalas based dishes that the west would call "curry" though.

咖喱在印度也被认为是一种西方菜肴
不过,有一些以印度混合香料为基础的菜肴,西方人称之为“咖喱”。

luniz420
japanese curry takes 3 days to make and uses apple and banana.

日本咖喱需要3天的时间来制作,使用苹果和香蕉。

ILikeChangingMyMind
That really depends on the recipe; most don't take that long at all.
I've made a Japanese curry roux (the block you can just buy at a Japanese grocery store, if you're not insane like me) from scratch. My recipe used an apple but not a banana (also heavy cream, an onion, tons of spices,etc.), and it only took a few hours.
I don't make it anymore (why waste hours when you can buy something just as good?) ... but the point is you can make curry 100% from scratch in 3 hours, not 3 days.

这取决于食谱;大多数根本不用花那么长时间。
我刚开始做日式咖喱面粉糊(你可以在日本的杂货店买到)。我的食谱用的是苹果而不是香蕉(还有浓奶油、洋葱、大量香料等),而且只花了几个小时。
我已经不再做了(既然你能买到同样好的东西,为什么还要浪费时间呢?)但关键是你可以在3小时内完成咖喱的制作,而不是3天内。
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Rebel_Emperor
I like Japanese curry more than Anglo-Indian. My English relatives would kill me if they knew

比起印度咖喱,我更喜欢日本咖喱。如果我的英国亲戚知道了,他们会杀了我

poopdish
And japanese curry is awesome.
They have breakfast diners that mainly serve beef and curry. It was my favorite thing to eat while I was there.

日本咖喱也很棒。
他们的早餐主要供应牛肉和咖喱。这是我在那里时最喜欢吃的东西。

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