捷克人和斯洛伐克人会因被称为东欧人而不是西欧人而感到冒犯。是因为他们看不起东欧人而崇拜西欧人吗?
正文翻译
Czechs and Slovaks get offended when they're called Eastern European but not when they're called Western European. Is that because they look down on real Eastern Europeans and worship Western Europeans?
捷克人和斯洛伐克人会因被称为东欧人而不是西欧人而感到冒犯。是因为他们看不起东欧人而崇拜西欧人吗?
Czechs and Slovaks get offended when they're called Eastern European but not when they're called Western European. Is that because they look down on real Eastern Europeans and worship Western Europeans?
捷克人和斯洛伐克人会因被称为东欧人而不是西欧人而感到冒犯。是因为他们看不起东欧人而崇拜西欧人吗?
评论翻译
Ani Lav, lives in Slovakia
Because by geographical and political citeria, we are Central Europeans.
Even by historical criteria, the Austro-Hungarian Kindom was thought of as Central European kingdom and both nations - Czech and Slovak were part of it.
The only thing that connects us with Eastern Europe is the specific time period (47 years if I´m not mistaken), when the Iron Curtain was a thing in Europe. To some people these 47 year seems like an eternity, when they still think it exists. Thats all
Who told you we don`t get offended when somebody calls us Western European? 1. nobody does that, and when they do (once in a blue moon), they are corrected, just like the people who call us Eastern European.
因为根据地理和政治标准，我们是中欧人。
即使按照历史标准，奥匈帝国也被认为是中欧王国，捷克和斯洛伐克都是其中的一部分。
唯一能把我们和东欧联系起来的是那个特定的时期(如果我没弄错的话，是47年)，当时铁幕还在欧洲存在。对一些人来说，这47年似乎是永恒的，但他们仍然认为它存在。仅此而已。
谁告诉你别人叫我们西欧人我们不会生气的?
1. 没有人会这么做，当他们这么做的时候(罕见)，他们就会被纠正过来，就像那些称我们为东欧人的人一样。
Because by geographical and political citeria, we are Central Europeans.
Even by historical criteria, the Austro-Hungarian Kindom was thought of as Central European kingdom and both nations - Czech and Slovak were part of it.
The only thing that connects us with Eastern Europe is the specific time period (47 years if I´m not mistaken), when the Iron Curtain was a thing in Europe. To some people these 47 year seems like an eternity, when they still think it exists. Thats all
Who told you we don`t get offended when somebody calls us Western European? 1. nobody does that, and when they do (once in a blue moon), they are corrected, just like the people who call us Eastern European.
因为根据地理和政治标准，我们是中欧人。
即使按照历史标准，奥匈帝国也被认为是中欧王国，捷克和斯洛伐克都是其中的一部分。
唯一能把我们和东欧联系起来的是那个特定的时期(如果我没弄错的话，是47年)，当时铁幕还在欧洲存在。对一些人来说，这47年似乎是永恒的，但他们仍然认为它存在。仅此而已。
谁告诉你别人叫我们西欧人我们不会生气的?
1. 没有人会这么做，当他们这么做的时候(罕见)，他们就会被纠正过来，就像那些称我们为东欧人的人一样。
We don`t worship Western Europeans. We are able to precieve Western Europe with a sober and critical thinking. We have the most in common with V4 countries (Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, Czechia) who are in the middle, geographically and politically. Seriously people, what`s so difficult to understand here?
We have culural similarities to Eastern Europe, but some of our values are leaning more towards Western Europe, which are pretty much non-compatible with Eastern Europe. Sometimes the descxtion of “people with Eastern European culture and Western European values” seems like the most fitting descxtion of both Czechia and Slovakia. We are our own countries, no need to fight for the rope with “west” on one end and “east” on the other end. Who gave you this rope? Its old, throw it away!
I can only assume that “Anonymous” is a Russian, they usually make similar claims of EU Slavic countries lickin Germany`s butt (their words, not mine), so it only makes sense the question is comming from over there.
我们不崇拜西欧人。我们能够以冷静和批判性的思维来看待西欧。我们与V4国家(斯洛伐克、匈牙利、波兰、捷克)在地理和政治上都处于中间。说真的，这里有什么难以理解的吗?
我们在文化上与东欧相似，但我们的一些价值观更倾向于西欧，这与东欧几乎不相容。有时，“具有东欧文化和西欧价值观的人”似乎是对捷克和斯洛伐克最合适的描述。我们都是自己的国家，没有必要争夺一端是“西方”、另一端是“东方”的绳子。这绳子是谁给你的? 它旧了，扔掉它!
我只能假设“匿名者”是俄罗斯人，他们通常会说欧盟斯拉夫国家舔德国的屁股(这是他们的说法，不是我的)，所以这个问题只有来自俄罗斯才说得通。
We have culural similarities to Eastern Europe, but some of our values are leaning more towards Western Europe, which are pretty much non-compatible with Eastern Europe. Sometimes the descxtion of “people with Eastern European culture and Western European values” seems like the most fitting descxtion of both Czechia and Slovakia. We are our own countries, no need to fight for the rope with “west” on one end and “east” on the other end. Who gave you this rope? Its old, throw it away!
I can only assume that “Anonymous” is a Russian, they usually make similar claims of EU Slavic countries lickin Germany`s butt (their words, not mine), so it only makes sense the question is comming from over there.
我们不崇拜西欧人。我们能够以冷静和批判性的思维来看待西欧。我们与V4国家(斯洛伐克、匈牙利、波兰、捷克)在地理和政治上都处于中间。说真的，这里有什么难以理解的吗?
我们在文化上与东欧相似，但我们的一些价值观更倾向于西欧，这与东欧几乎不相容。有时，“具有东欧文化和西欧价值观的人”似乎是对捷克和斯洛伐克最合适的描述。我们都是自己的国家，没有必要争夺一端是“西方”、另一端是“东方”的绳子。这绳子是谁给你的? 它旧了，扔掉它!
我只能假设“匿名者”是俄罗斯人，他们通常会说欧盟斯拉夫国家舔德国的屁股(这是他们的说法，不是我的)，所以这个问题只有来自俄罗斯才说得通。
What we have in common with Eastern Europe are the roots of our languages, pre-Christian traditions, being sided as “eastern block” for the period of 47 years.
What we don´t have in common with Eastern Europe is the religion, democracy index, government type, peace index, freedom of press index, cuisine, etc. etc.
Theres another identity “Slavic” which is an inter-regional phenomenon of belonging to a group of countries with similar language roots and ancient origins. These people are in parts of Eastern, Central and Southern Europe today. (oh, btw. do you know Southern Europe too? No? only west-east?)
Modern Slavic people create many countries with their own languages and their own socio-political dynamics which may vary. Speaking of genetic herritage, you will find different influences in Western Slavic people than in Eastern Slavic people.
我们与东欧的共同之处是我们的语言根源，基督教之前的传统，在47年的时间里被视为“东方集团”。
我们和东欧没有共同点的是宗教、民主指数、政府类型、和平指数、新闻自由指数、美食等等。
还有一个身份是“斯拉夫”，这是一种跨地区的现象，属于一个有着相似的语言根源和古代起源的国家群体。这些人现在生活在东欧、中欧和南欧的部分地区。(哦,顺便说一句。你也知道南欧吗?没有?只有西欧?)
现代斯拉夫人民创造了许多国家，他们有自己的语言和自己的社会政治动态，这可能是不同的。说到遗传，你会发现西斯拉夫人和东斯拉夫人受到的影响是不同的。
What we don´t have in common with Eastern Europe is the religion, democracy index, government type, peace index, freedom of press index, cuisine, etc. etc.
Theres another identity “Slavic” which is an inter-regional phenomenon of belonging to a group of countries with similar language roots and ancient origins. These people are in parts of Eastern, Central and Southern Europe today. (oh, btw. do you know Southern Europe too? No? only west-east?)
Modern Slavic people create many countries with their own languages and their own socio-political dynamics which may vary. Speaking of genetic herritage, you will find different influences in Western Slavic people than in Eastern Slavic people.
我们与东欧的共同之处是我们的语言根源，基督教之前的传统，在47年的时间里被视为“东方集团”。
我们和东欧没有共同点的是宗教、民主指数、政府类型、和平指数、新闻自由指数、美食等等。
还有一个身份是“斯拉夫”，这是一种跨地区的现象，属于一个有着相似的语言根源和古代起源的国家群体。这些人现在生活在东欧、中欧和南欧的部分地区。(哦,顺便说一句。你也知道南欧吗?没有?只有西欧?)
现代斯拉夫人民创造了许多国家，他们有自己的语言和自己的社会政治动态，这可能是不同的。说到遗传，你会发现西斯拉夫人和东斯拉夫人受到的影响是不同的。
Why does everyone seek to clump people in a box that fits them personally from their point of view without actually respecting the people`s self-identity? If Czechs and Slovaks identify themselves as Central Europeans, it`s not like they woke up one day, met with fellow Hungarians and Poles and said “you know guys, let`s call ourselves Centrals for absolutely no reason haha. Just to piss off some Western and Eastern peeps lol”. Trust me, if groups of people that happen to be close to each other all together independently agree on the same identity, they must have some reasons for that. If that doesnt make sense to you, why not ask them, politely, for those reasons in order for you to be able to understand?
Europe is a continent of more than 44 countries, languages and cultures. How does it make sense to speak about two regions only? How descxtive is it of a country to call it only a “western european” or “eastern european” ? There are many regions in Europe, welcome to 2020, and also, welcome to pre-WW Europe.
EDIT: but I'm glad you referred to the countries East of czechia and Slovakia as “real Eastern Europeans” because you just admitted that Czechs and Slovaks are not real Eastern Europeans. Than what's this whole thing about?
为什么每个人都在不尊重人们的自我认同的情况下，试图把人们塞进一个符合他们个人观点的盒子里?
如果捷克人和斯洛伐克人认为自己是中欧人，他们不会有一天醒来，见到匈牙利人和波兰人，然后说:“伙计们，让我们毫无理由地称自己为中欧人吧，哈哈。只是为了激怒一些西方和东方的欧洲人，哈哈”。 相信我，如果一群碰巧彼此很亲近的人在一起独立地同意相同的身份，他们一定是有原因的。如果这对你来说没有意义，为什么不礼貌地问他们，为了你能理解他们?
欧洲是一个拥有超过44个国家、语言和文化的大陆。只说两个区域有什么意义?一个地区只被称为“西欧”或“东欧”，如何描述整个面貌?欧洲有很多地区，欢迎来到2020年，也欢迎来到世界大战前的欧洲。
补充：但我很高兴你把捷克和斯洛伐克以东的国家称为“真正的东欧人”，因为你刚刚承认捷克人和斯洛伐克人不是真正的东欧人。这到底是怎么回事?
Europe is a continent of more than 44 countries, languages and cultures. How does it make sense to speak about two regions only? How descxtive is it of a country to call it only a “western european” or “eastern european” ? There are many regions in Europe, welcome to 2020, and also, welcome to pre-WW Europe.
EDIT: but I'm glad you referred to the countries East of czechia and Slovakia as “real Eastern Europeans” because you just admitted that Czechs and Slovaks are not real Eastern Europeans. Than what's this whole thing about?
为什么每个人都在不尊重人们的自我认同的情况下，试图把人们塞进一个符合他们个人观点的盒子里?
如果捷克人和斯洛伐克人认为自己是中欧人，他们不会有一天醒来，见到匈牙利人和波兰人，然后说:“伙计们，让我们毫无理由地称自己为中欧人吧，哈哈。只是为了激怒一些西方和东方的欧洲人，哈哈”。 相信我，如果一群碰巧彼此很亲近的人在一起独立地同意相同的身份，他们一定是有原因的。如果这对你来说没有意义，为什么不礼貌地问他们，为了你能理解他们?
欧洲是一个拥有超过44个国家、语言和文化的大陆。只说两个区域有什么意义?一个地区只被称为“西欧”或“东欧”，如何描述整个面貌?欧洲有很多地区，欢迎来到2020年，也欢迎来到世界大战前的欧洲。
补充：但我很高兴你把捷克和斯洛伐克以东的国家称为“真正的东欧人”，因为你刚刚承认捷克人和斯洛伐克人不是真正的东欧人。这到底是怎么回事?
Jakub Štopl, studied Law at Masarykova Univerzita (2021)
It is a complicate subject, since it revolves around identity and the conflict of self-perception and how other perceive us. There are not many clear-cut boundaries in Europe. Categories overlap, coexist and change depending on a context.
From my point of view, it is a lot about context. When someone is using the classic cold war east/west dichotomy, so be it. I do not really have a problem with being considered eastern European in that case. While this binary division is simplistic and it puts together very different countries culturally, historically and economically (for example Albania and Estonia), it does the same thing in western Europe, where you have countries so different as Portugal and Norway lumped together. So it is simplistic division, but I understand why it is used. It provides one with some basic context and contrary to what some people often claim, it actually does have roots in older concepts than just the cold war.
It is the division between the mostly maritime and mostly land based Europe, mostly Germanic and Latin and mostly Slavic (but not just, obviously) Europe, the Europe that mostly had overseas colonies and the Europe that did not and was often itself included in large multinational empires (except Russia which did not had overseas colonies but colonised others by just expanding its borders), Europe that experienced communism and Europe that did not and also, while some people do not like to hear it, the Europe that is mostly really rich and developed and the Europe that is not that rich and developed.
这是一个复杂的话题，因为它围绕着身份、自我认知和他人如何看待我们的冲突。在欧洲没有很多明确的界限。类别重叠、共存并根据上下文变化。
在我看来，这与背景有关。当有人使用经典的东西方冷战二分法时，那就随他去吧。在这种情况下，我被认为是东欧人并没有什么问题。虽然这种二元划分过于简单，它把文化、历史和经济上非常不同的国家放在一起(例如阿尔巴尼亚和爱沙尼亚)，但在西欧也做了同样的事情，在那里也把葡萄牙和挪威这样非常不同的国家放在一起。所以这是简单的划分，但我理解为什么要用它。它提供了一些基本的背景，与一些人经常声称的相反，它实际上植根于比冷战更古老的概念。
它划分了以海洋和陆地为主的欧洲，以日耳曼为主的欧洲、拉丁为主的欧洲和斯拉夫为主的欧洲(但不只是，很明显)，主要有海外殖民地的欧洲和没有海外殖民地的欧洲，通常本身就包括在大型跨洲际帝国中。除了俄罗斯，它没有海外殖民地,但有通过扩大边界来殖民其他国家。经历过共产主义的欧洲和没有经历过共产主义的欧洲，虽然有些人不喜欢听，但是前者大部分是富裕和发达的，而后者则不是那么富裕和发达。
我对这种划分的质疑在于，它被联合国采纳了。
It is a complicate subject, since it revolves around identity and the conflict of self-perception and how other perceive us. There are not many clear-cut boundaries in Europe. Categories overlap, coexist and change depending on a context.
From my point of view, it is a lot about context. When someone is using the classic cold war east/west dichotomy, so be it. I do not really have a problem with being considered eastern European in that case. While this binary division is simplistic and it puts together very different countries culturally, historically and economically (for example Albania and Estonia), it does the same thing in western Europe, where you have countries so different as Portugal and Norway lumped together. So it is simplistic division, but I understand why it is used. It provides one with some basic context and contrary to what some people often claim, it actually does have roots in older concepts than just the cold war.
It is the division between the mostly maritime and mostly land based Europe, mostly Germanic and Latin and mostly Slavic (but not just, obviously) Europe, the Europe that mostly had overseas colonies and the Europe that did not and was often itself included in large multinational empires (except Russia which did not had overseas colonies but colonised others by just expanding its borders), Europe that experienced communism and Europe that did not and also, while some people do not like to hear it, the Europe that is mostly really rich and developed and the Europe that is not that rich and developed.
这是一个复杂的话题，因为它围绕着身份、自我认知和他人如何看待我们的冲突。在欧洲没有很多明确的界限。类别重叠、共存并根据上下文变化。
在我看来，这与背景有关。当有人使用经典的东西方冷战二分法时，那就随他去吧。在这种情况下，我被认为是东欧人并没有什么问题。虽然这种二元划分过于简单，它把文化、历史和经济上非常不同的国家放在一起(例如阿尔巴尼亚和爱沙尼亚)，但在西欧也做了同样的事情，在那里也把葡萄牙和挪威这样非常不同的国家放在一起。所以这是简单的划分，但我理解为什么要用它。它提供了一些基本的背景，与一些人经常声称的相反，它实际上植根于比冷战更古老的概念。
它划分了以海洋和陆地为主的欧洲，以日耳曼为主的欧洲、拉丁为主的欧洲和斯拉夫为主的欧洲(但不只是，很明显)，主要有海外殖民地的欧洲和没有海外殖民地的欧洲，通常本身就包括在大型跨洲际帝国中。除了俄罗斯，它没有海外殖民地,但有通过扩大边界来殖民其他国家。经历过共产主义的欧洲和没有经历过共产主义的欧洲，虽然有些人不喜欢听，但是前者大部分是富裕和发达的，而后者则不是那么富裕和发达。
我对这种划分的质疑在于，它被联合国采纳了。
I believe that if we one leave the binary dichotomy and start to create more categories, central Europe should be included as a region on its own. The countries that were part of of eastern bloc, but are using latin scxt and are mostly catholic and not orthodox, should be acknowledged. The differences between western slavic countries and other countries that were mostly parts of Austria-Hungary (Croatia, Slovenia etc.), and orthodox countries more to the east (Ukraine, Russia) are very clear and present. To clearly acknowledge the differences between western, northern and southern Europe, but not between central and eastern Europe, is giving a message of not really taking that divisions seriously and just glossing over them. That would obviously anger people. But the differences between orthodox eastern Europe and catholic (and partly also protestant) central Europe are as pronounced, if not more, as the differences between let's say Sweden and Italy.
I also do not have a problem with being seen as Eastern European, when intra-EU issues are discussed. Inside EU, we just are the new eastern members and there is lot of differences in terms of perception of certain issues (migration, green revolution, where the EU should be headed, amount of sovereignty for member states and other subjects). So it makes sense to just talk that way about us.
我认为，如果我们抛开二元二分法，开始创建更多的类别，中欧应该作为一个单独的区域被包括进来。应该承认那些曾是东欧集团的一部分，但使用拉丁字母，而且大多是天主教而不是东正教的国家。西斯拉夫国家和其他曾经是奥匈帝国一部分的国家(克罗地亚，斯洛文尼亚等)，以及东正教国家的(乌克兰，俄罗斯)之间的差异是非常明显的。
明确承认西欧、北欧和南欧之间的差异，而不是中欧和东欧之间的差异，传递出的信息是，没有真正认真对待这些分歧，只是粉饰它们。这显然会激怒人们。但是，东正教东欧和天主教(部分也包括新教)中欧之间的差异，就像瑞典和意大利之间的差异一样，如果不是更明显的话。
在讨论欧盟内部问题时，我也不介意被视为东欧人。在欧盟内部，我们只是新加入的东欧成员国，在某些问题(移民、绿色革命、欧盟应向何处发展、成员国的主权数量和其他问题)上存在很多看法分歧。所以这样谈论我们是有道理的。
I also do not have a problem with being seen as Eastern European, when intra-EU issues are discussed. Inside EU, we just are the new eastern members and there is lot of differences in terms of perception of certain issues (migration, green revolution, where the EU should be headed, amount of sovereignty for member states and other subjects). So it makes sense to just talk that way about us.
我认为，如果我们抛开二元二分法，开始创建更多的类别，中欧应该作为一个单独的区域被包括进来。应该承认那些曾是东欧集团的一部分，但使用拉丁字母，而且大多是天主教而不是东正教的国家。西斯拉夫国家和其他曾经是奥匈帝国一部分的国家(克罗地亚，斯洛文尼亚等)，以及东正教国家的(乌克兰，俄罗斯)之间的差异是非常明显的。
明确承认西欧、北欧和南欧之间的差异，而不是中欧和东欧之间的差异，传递出的信息是，没有真正认真对待这些分歧，只是粉饰它们。这显然会激怒人们。但是，东正教东欧和天主教(部分也包括新教)中欧之间的差异，就像瑞典和意大利之间的差异一样，如果不是更明显的话。
在讨论欧盟内部问题时，我也不介意被视为东欧人。在欧盟内部，我们只是新加入的东欧成员国，在某些问题(移民、绿色革命、欧盟应向何处发展、成员国的主权数量和其他问题)上存在很多看法分歧。所以这样谈论我们是有道理的。
There is also one problem with the term central Europe that I personally often see. Is Germany and Austria included or not? Usually, the term central Europe includes these countries and the clear 1000 years of Germanic cultural influence on its eastern members is often taken as a mark of central Europe (or Mitteleuropa). That is of course true. But it is also fair to say, that when we talk about lot of contemporary divisions and issues, it just does not make that much sense to lump Germany and its eastern members together, because they often have very different views on those issues. So it is also practically problematic to use the term central Europe when discussing certain things. And what I often see in advertisement in Czech republic, my home country, is a poster or some TV or radio spots claiming that some place in Czech republic (like music club or a health facility or something) are best, biggest or most modern in central Europe, but they clearly does not take Germany into account, because then the advertisement could often not be true. It always means best, biggest or most modern in Visegrad countries.
关于中欧这个词，我个人经常看到一个问题。德国和奥地利是否包括在内?通常，中欧一词包括这些国家，而1000年的日耳曼文化对其东部成员的影响通常被视为中欧的标志。这当然是真的。但公平地说，当我们谈论当代的许多分歧和问题时，把德国及其东欧成员国混为一谈是没有多大意义的，因为它们在这些问题上的观点往往非常不同。
因此，在讨论某些事情时，使用中欧这个术语实际上也是有问题的。在我的祖国捷克共和国，我经常在广告中看到的是一幅海报或一些电视或广播广告，声称捷克共和国的某个地方(比如音乐俱乐部或医疗设施等)是中欧最好的、最大的或最现代化的。但他们显然没有把德国考虑在内，因为如此一来广告往往是不真实的。它总是指维谢格拉德国家集团中最好的，最大的或最现代化的。
（注：维谢格拉德集团（英文：Visegrád Group）或V4，是一个文化性和政治性国家联盟，成立于1991年2月14日，由波兰共和国、匈牙利、捷克共和国和斯洛伐克共和国四国组成。）
关于中欧这个词，我个人经常看到一个问题。德国和奥地利是否包括在内?通常，中欧一词包括这些国家，而1000年的日耳曼文化对其东部成员的影响通常被视为中欧的标志。这当然是真的。但公平地说，当我们谈论当代的许多分歧和问题时，把德国及其东欧成员国混为一谈是没有多大意义的，因为它们在这些问题上的观点往往非常不同。
因此，在讨论某些事情时，使用中欧这个术语实际上也是有问题的。在我的祖国捷克共和国，我经常在广告中看到的是一幅海报或一些电视或广播广告，声称捷克共和国的某个地方(比如音乐俱乐部或医疗设施等)是中欧最好的、最大的或最现代化的。但他们显然没有把德国考虑在内，因为如此一来广告往往是不真实的。它总是指维谢格拉德国家集团中最好的，最大的或最现代化的。
（注：维谢格拉德集团（英文：Visegrád Group）或V4，是一个文化性和政治性国家联盟，成立于1991年2月14日，由波兰共和国、匈牙利、捷克共和国和斯洛伐克共和国四国组成。）
So it goes both ways. We often use the term central Europe with Germany excluded, which also does not make that much sense. I would say, that probably the most fitting term that I sometimes see used is east central Europe. It is probably the only term that clearly states that while there are very important differences between ex-communist central European countries and Germany/Austria, it also understands that you have another very important division between Visegrad countries and Belarus/Ukraine.
But I understand that the term might sound somewhat strange to people and it is not that widely used (usually by political scientists or historians with some interests in the region). And to get to the meat of the question, I personally do not get offended by being called eastern European, but I also have very distinct identity that is clearly separate from countries more to the east. And I can honestly say, that Russia is much more exotic place to me than UK or France. I do not see myself as a typical westerner, but I also do not see myself as an eastern European. I do not look down on eastern Europeans or worship western Europeans. I see myself as an intermezzo of sort. Thus, central European. But I also do not have an ambition to change mental maps of people, so I really am not one of those “we are central European, not eastern, CENTRAL!” people, that get triggered every time French/British/Spanish or Swedish person calls my country eastern Europeans. We won't change it anyway, so why bother.
所以它是双向的。我们经常使用不包括德国的中欧一词，但这也没有什么意义。我想说，我有时看到的最合适的术语是中欧东部。它可能是唯一一个清楚表明，尽管前共产主义中欧国家与德国/奥地利之间存在非常重要的差异，但它也明白，维谢格拉德集团与白俄罗斯/乌克兰之间同样也存在非常重要的差异。
但我知道，这个词可能听起来有些奇怪，它并没有被广泛使用(通常局限于对该地区有一些兴趣的政治科学家或历史学家)。说到问题的实质，我个人不介意被称为东欧人，但我也有非常明显的身份，这与更东方的国家明显不同。我可以诚实地说，对我来说，俄罗斯比英国或法国更具异国情调。我不认为自己是一个典型的西方人，但也不认为自己是一个东欧人。我没有看不起东欧人，也不崇拜西欧人。我把自己看作是某种间奏曲，也就是欧洲中部。
但我也没有改变人们心理地图的野心，所以我不会搞得像——“我们是中欧人，不是东欧人，是中欧人!” 然后每当法国人、英国人、西班牙人或瑞典人说我的国家是东欧人时，我就会被激怒。
反正我们也不会改，那又何必费事呢。
But I understand that the term might sound somewhat strange to people and it is not that widely used (usually by political scientists or historians with some interests in the region). And to get to the meat of the question, I personally do not get offended by being called eastern European, but I also have very distinct identity that is clearly separate from countries more to the east. And I can honestly say, that Russia is much more exotic place to me than UK or France. I do not see myself as a typical westerner, but I also do not see myself as an eastern European. I do not look down on eastern Europeans or worship western Europeans. I see myself as an intermezzo of sort. Thus, central European. But I also do not have an ambition to change mental maps of people, so I really am not one of those “we are central European, not eastern, CENTRAL!” people, that get triggered every time French/British/Spanish or Swedish person calls my country eastern Europeans. We won't change it anyway, so why bother.
所以它是双向的。我们经常使用不包括德国的中欧一词，但这也没有什么意义。我想说，我有时看到的最合适的术语是中欧东部。它可能是唯一一个清楚表明，尽管前共产主义中欧国家与德国/奥地利之间存在非常重要的差异，但它也明白，维谢格拉德集团与白俄罗斯/乌克兰之间同样也存在非常重要的差异。
但我知道，这个词可能听起来有些奇怪，它并没有被广泛使用(通常局限于对该地区有一些兴趣的政治科学家或历史学家)。说到问题的实质，我个人不介意被称为东欧人，但我也有非常明显的身份，这与更东方的国家明显不同。我可以诚实地说，对我来说，俄罗斯比英国或法国更具异国情调。我不认为自己是一个典型的西方人，但也不认为自己是一个东欧人。我没有看不起东欧人，也不崇拜西欧人。我把自己看作是某种间奏曲，也就是欧洲中部。
但我也没有改变人们心理地图的野心，所以我不会搞得像——“我们是中欧人，不是东欧人，是中欧人!” 然后每当法国人、英国人、西班牙人或瑞典人说我的国家是东欧人时，我就会被激怒。
反正我们也不会改，那又何必费事呢。
Karol Siska, works at The White House
I've never heard one person in my entire life refer to Czechs as western Europeans so I have no idea where u got that from.
Also, Czechs are offended to be called eastern European and not central when their capital is farther west than vienna, they were historically part of the holy Roman empire, historically Roman catholic, and historically united with Austria and Bavaria yet get lumped with orthodox countries like Russia and Ukraine just because of communism and the fact that they speak a Slavic language.
If you said you were from the U.S and people said “oh that's cool I love the queen” you would think that was absurd right? Well imagine if everyone from Europe assumed America was under the queen, it would get pretty annoying wouldn't it?
One of the comments here claimed transylvania is more similar to the Czech republic than the Czech republic is to Bavaria or Austria. When people hear stufff like this they are just amazed by the ignorance.
我这辈子从来没听过有人把捷克人说成是西欧人，所以我不知道提问者从哪学来的。
此外，鉴于捷克首都在比维也纳更远的西边，所以捷克人会在被称为东欧人而不是中欧而感到冒犯。他们历史上是神圣罗马帝国的一部分，历史上是罗马天主教的一部分，历史上与奥地利和巴伐利亚联合，但却被归为俄罗斯和乌克兰等东正教国家，仅仅因为共产主义和他们说斯拉夫语。
如果你说你来自美国，人们说“哦，太酷了，我爱女王”你会认为这很荒谬，不是吗?想象一下，如果每个欧洲人都认为美国是在女王统治下，那将会非常恼人，不是吗?
这里有一条评论说特兰西瓦尼亚与捷克共和国的相似度要高于捷克共和国与巴伐利亚或奥地利的相似度。当人们听到这样的事情时，他们会为自己的无知感到惊讶。
I've never heard one person in my entire life refer to Czechs as western Europeans so I have no idea where u got that from.
Also, Czechs are offended to be called eastern European and not central when their capital is farther west than vienna, they were historically part of the holy Roman empire, historically Roman catholic, and historically united with Austria and Bavaria yet get lumped with orthodox countries like Russia and Ukraine just because of communism and the fact that they speak a Slavic language.
If you said you were from the U.S and people said “oh that's cool I love the queen” you would think that was absurd right? Well imagine if everyone from Europe assumed America was under the queen, it would get pretty annoying wouldn't it?
One of the comments here claimed transylvania is more similar to the Czech republic than the Czech republic is to Bavaria or Austria. When people hear stufff like this they are just amazed by the ignorance.
我这辈子从来没听过有人把捷克人说成是西欧人，所以我不知道提问者从哪学来的。
此外，鉴于捷克首都在比维也纳更远的西边，所以捷克人会在被称为东欧人而不是中欧而感到冒犯。他们历史上是神圣罗马帝国的一部分，历史上是罗马天主教的一部分，历史上与奥地利和巴伐利亚联合，但却被归为俄罗斯和乌克兰等东正教国家，仅仅因为共产主义和他们说斯拉夫语。
如果你说你来自美国，人们说“哦，太酷了，我爱女王”你会认为这很荒谬，不是吗?想象一下，如果每个欧洲人都认为美国是在女王统治下，那将会非常恼人，不是吗?
这里有一条评论说特兰西瓦尼亚与捷克共和国的相似度要高于捷克共和国与巴伐利亚或奥地利的相似度。当人们听到这样的事情时，他们会为自己的无知感到惊讶。
Jiri Maly, knows Czech
Original question: Czechs and Slovaks get offended when they’re called Eastern European but not when they’re called Western European. Is that because they look down on real Eastern Europeans and worship Western Europeans?
There are fundamental cultural and historical reasons why Czechs and Slovaks are Western European (I prefer the term Central European, but am not fussy on this point). The incorrect belief that we’re Eastern Europeans is based on a line that was drawn as a result of a deal made by Churchill and Roosevelt to appease Stalin at the Yalta conference in February 1945 (the only reason the demarcation between East and West was drawn where it was in the second half of the 20th century). Slovaks please forgive my Czech centric answer.
A quick inspection of a map shows that Prague is west of Vienna (and obviously Athens) and also today’s border between Poland and Germany. Bratislava is a short drive from Vienna (just under 1 hour I believe if traffic is good).
Bohemia at a minimum was a fully integral part of western European economy and culture dating back at least to the 12th century (i.e., far preceding it’s membership in the Hapsburg Empire, and certainly the Warsaw Pact). To give a very simple example, Mozart lived in Prague for many of his most productive years at a time when national borders meant less than social and cultural perceptions. Prague was an important center of western European culture and so a perfectly acceptable and respectable home for him. Many artists and intellectuals moved freely between Bohemia and other regions of western Europe. Yes they might also visit Moscow or St Petersburg, although that was viewed as a much more exotic adventure. Prague was just down the road from Vienna, Salzburg, Nuremberg, or Berlin.
捷克人和斯洛伐克人是西欧人(我更喜欢中欧人这个词，但对这一点并不挑剔)，这是有根本的文化和历史原因的。认为我们是东欧人的错误信念是基于1945年2月在雅尔塔会议上丘吉尔和罗斯福为了安抚斯大林而达成的一项协议。
斯洛伐克人请原谅我以捷克为中心的回答。
快速浏览一下地图，就会发现布拉格（前捷克斯洛伐克首都，现捷克首都）位于维也纳(显然也在雅典西边)的西边，也是今天波兰和德国的边界。伯拉第斯拉瓦（斯洛伐克首都）离维也纳很近(如果交通状况好的话，我相信不到1小时)。
波西米亚至少是西欧经济和文化的完整组成部分，至少可以追溯到12世纪(也就是说，远远早于它成为哈布斯堡帝国的成员，当然也早于华沙条约组织)。举个简单的例子，莫扎特在布拉格度过了他最有成就的许多年，当时国家的边界并不意味着社会和文化的认知。布拉格是西欧文化的一个重要中心，因此对他来说是一个完全可以接受和受人尊敬的家园。许多艺术家和知识分子在波西米亚和西欧其他地区之间自由流动。
是的，他们可能也会去莫斯科或圣彼得堡，尽管那被视为一种更具异国情调的冒险。布拉格离维也纳、萨尔茨堡、纽伦堡或柏林不远。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Original question: Czechs and Slovaks get offended when they’re called Eastern European but not when they’re called Western European. Is that because they look down on real Eastern Europeans and worship Western Europeans?
There are fundamental cultural and historical reasons why Czechs and Slovaks are Western European (I prefer the term Central European, but am not fussy on this point). The incorrect belief that we’re Eastern Europeans is based on a line that was drawn as a result of a deal made by Churchill and Roosevelt to appease Stalin at the Yalta conference in February 1945 (the only reason the demarcation between East and West was drawn where it was in the second half of the 20th century). Slovaks please forgive my Czech centric answer.
A quick inspection of a map shows that Prague is west of Vienna (and obviously Athens) and also today’s border between Poland and Germany. Bratislava is a short drive from Vienna (just under 1 hour I believe if traffic is good).
Bohemia at a minimum was a fully integral part of western European economy and culture dating back at least to the 12th century (i.e., far preceding it’s membership in the Hapsburg Empire, and certainly the Warsaw Pact). To give a very simple example, Mozart lived in Prague for many of his most productive years at a time when national borders meant less than social and cultural perceptions. Prague was an important center of western European culture and so a perfectly acceptable and respectable home for him. Many artists and intellectuals moved freely between Bohemia and other regions of western Europe. Yes they might also visit Moscow or St Petersburg, although that was viewed as a much more exotic adventure. Prague was just down the road from Vienna, Salzburg, Nuremberg, or Berlin.
捷克人和斯洛伐克人是西欧人(我更喜欢中欧人这个词，但对这一点并不挑剔)，这是有根本的文化和历史原因的。认为我们是东欧人的错误信念是基于1945年2月在雅尔塔会议上丘吉尔和罗斯福为了安抚斯大林而达成的一项协议。
斯洛伐克人请原谅我以捷克为中心的回答。
快速浏览一下地图，就会发现布拉格（前捷克斯洛伐克首都，现捷克首都）位于维也纳(显然也在雅典西边)的西边，也是今天波兰和德国的边界。伯拉第斯拉瓦（斯洛伐克首都）离维也纳很近(如果交通状况好的话，我相信不到1小时)。
波西米亚至少是西欧经济和文化的完整组成部分，至少可以追溯到12世纪(也就是说，远远早于它成为哈布斯堡帝国的成员，当然也早于华沙条约组织)。举个简单的例子，莫扎特在布拉格度过了他最有成就的许多年，当时国家的边界并不意味着社会和文化的认知。布拉格是西欧文化的一个重要中心，因此对他来说是一个完全可以接受和受人尊敬的家园。许多艺术家和知识分子在波西米亚和西欧其他地区之间自由流动。
是的，他们可能也会去莫斯科或圣彼得堡，尽管那被视为一种更具异国情调的冒险。布拉格离维也纳、萨尔茨堡、纽伦堡或柏林不远。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Someone with more economic knowledge will be able to comment better on economic integration to the west but I’ll make two observation. Bohemia was one of the most industrialized regions in the world before WW2 and it’s world leading manufacturing base was seized by Nazi Germany at the start of the war as a key strategic obxtive after Czechoslovakia, a western ally, was sold out by Chamberlain at the Munich conference. Second, railways in the Czech and Slovak regions have always been the western gauge, not the narrower Russian gauge (although parts of Slovakia’s system were converted by the Soviets as they plundered the region’s resources).
Czechs are traditionally Catholics (although few practice now), as are Slovaks and Poles, not Eastern Orthodox, and in fact Bohemian monarchs were elected Holy Roman Emperors. It’s also important to point out that the Protestant reformation had a first failed start in Bohemia under Jan Hus, a full century before Martin Luther. We celebrate Christmas and Easter as well as other holidays on the Gregorian, not Julian, calendar.
Although Czech and Slovak are (western!) Slavic languages, Czechs, like Poles and Slovaks, use the Latin scxt, not Cyrillic (although that choice was less ancient). Bohemia and Moravia, today’s Czech Republic, as well as Silesia, now split between the CR, Poland, and Germany, had traditionally large indigenous German speaking populations, and for many centuries German was often the language of the upper classes and of the government bureaucracy (much as Latin, not Greek or Russian, was the language of the church). Czech has many borrowed words and expressions from German, including some more colourful phrases best not repeated here. Russian was forced on one generation through a school system that pandered to the Soviets but, despite sharing common Slavic roots, was never commonly studied or used. Slovak’s, in fact, have similar affinities to Hungarian leading, I understand, to particularly elaborate profanities.
拥有更多经济知识的人将能够更好地评论与西方的经济一体化，但我想说两点。波西米亚曾是世界上最发达的地区之一,在二战之前,世界领先的制造基地被纳粹德国的战争作为一个关键战略目标后, 捷克斯洛伐克, 西方盟友, 被张伯伦在慕尼黑会议上出卖了。其次，捷克和斯洛伐克地区的铁路一直是西欧轨道，而不是较窄的俄罗斯轨道(尽管斯洛伐克的部分轨道被苏联人改造了，因为他们掠夺了该地区的资源)。
捷克人是传统的天主教徒(尽管现在很少有)，斯洛伐克人和波兰人也是，而不是东正教，事实上波希米亚的君主被选为神圣罗马帝国的皇帝。同样重要的是，新教改革在扬·胡斯领导下的波西米亚第一次失败了，比马丁·路德早了整整一个世纪。我们庆祝圣诞节和复活节以及其他公历节日，而不是儒略历。
虽然捷克人和斯洛伐克人是(西)斯拉夫语，捷克语，像波兰语和斯洛伐克语，使用拉丁字母，而不是西里尔字母。波希米亚和摩拉维亚还有西里西亚，现在分裂为捷克，波兰和德国的一部分，传统上有大量说德语的土著人口，许多世纪以来，德语经常是上层阶级和政府官僚机构的语言(就像教会的语言是拉丁语，而不是希腊语或俄语一样)。
捷克语有许多从德语借用的词汇和表达。在一代人的时间里，俄语被迫通过迎合苏联人而在学校进行了系统学习，但尽管有着共同的斯拉夫根源，却从未被普遍学习或使用。事实上，据我所知，斯洛伐克人与匈牙利人有相似之处，他们特别喜欢说粗话。
Czechs are traditionally Catholics (although few practice now), as are Slovaks and Poles, not Eastern Orthodox, and in fact Bohemian monarchs were elected Holy Roman Emperors. It’s also important to point out that the Protestant reformation had a first failed start in Bohemia under Jan Hus, a full century before Martin Luther. We celebrate Christmas and Easter as well as other holidays on the Gregorian, not Julian, calendar.
Although Czech and Slovak are (western!) Slavic languages, Czechs, like Poles and Slovaks, use the Latin scxt, not Cyrillic (although that choice was less ancient). Bohemia and Moravia, today’s Czech Republic, as well as Silesia, now split between the CR, Poland, and Germany, had traditionally large indigenous German speaking populations, and for many centuries German was often the language of the upper classes and of the government bureaucracy (much as Latin, not Greek or Russian, was the language of the church). Czech has many borrowed words and expressions from German, including some more colourful phrases best not repeated here. Russian was forced on one generation through a school system that pandered to the Soviets but, despite sharing common Slavic roots, was never commonly studied or used. Slovak’s, in fact, have similar affinities to Hungarian leading, I understand, to particularly elaborate profanities.
拥有更多经济知识的人将能够更好地评论与西方的经济一体化，但我想说两点。波西米亚曾是世界上最发达的地区之一,在二战之前,世界领先的制造基地被纳粹德国的战争作为一个关键战略目标后, 捷克斯洛伐克, 西方盟友, 被张伯伦在慕尼黑会议上出卖了。其次，捷克和斯洛伐克地区的铁路一直是西欧轨道，而不是较窄的俄罗斯轨道(尽管斯洛伐克的部分轨道被苏联人改造了，因为他们掠夺了该地区的资源)。
捷克人是传统的天主教徒(尽管现在很少有)，斯洛伐克人和波兰人也是，而不是东正教，事实上波希米亚的君主被选为神圣罗马帝国的皇帝。同样重要的是，新教改革在扬·胡斯领导下的波西米亚第一次失败了，比马丁·路德早了整整一个世纪。我们庆祝圣诞节和复活节以及其他公历节日，而不是儒略历。
虽然捷克人和斯洛伐克人是(西)斯拉夫语，捷克语，像波兰语和斯洛伐克语，使用拉丁字母，而不是西里尔字母。波希米亚和摩拉维亚还有西里西亚，现在分裂为捷克，波兰和德国的一部分，传统上有大量说德语的土著人口，许多世纪以来，德语经常是上层阶级和政府官僚机构的语言(就像教会的语言是拉丁语，而不是希腊语或俄语一样)。
捷克语有许多从德语借用的词汇和表达。在一代人的时间里，俄语被迫通过迎合苏联人而在学校进行了系统学习，但尽管有着共同的斯拉夫根源，却从未被普遍学习或使用。事实上，据我所知，斯洛伐克人与匈牙利人有相似之处，他们特别喜欢说粗话。
As for other aspects of culture, Czech cuisine and architecture for example might seem very similar to Bavaria to North American visitors. No onion shaped domes on our churches and monasteries. And Czech food is quite similar to Austrian and Bavarian with centuries of friendly debate as to who does dumplings better (sorry my Germanic friends). A special shout out to Slovaks for their halúšky s brinzou. And then there’s beer! Sorry Anheuser-Busch, but Budweiser is an ancient Czech beer y’all ripped off. The towns of Budvar and Pilsen (which gives Pilsener beer its name) are squarely in Bohemia. Southern regions of Moravia and Slovakia make wonderful wines, but vodka is at best the tipple of desperate drunks unable to secure higher brow distilled beverages like slivovice, and slick Prague night club denizens (many of whom are Russians come there to party and cause trouble, experiencing western culture on the cheap).
Today both the Czechs and Slovaks are part of NATO and the EU, and arguably have more robust democratic institutions than some much older and more powerful western countries. Czechs have stood side by side with our American and British friends and allies throughout the war on terror, forward deploying in Afghanistan and accepting the consequences of that in blood (despite the two above mentioned betrayals by these same friends in the previous century).
至于文化的其他方面，比如对北美游客来说，捷克的美食和建筑可能与巴伐利亚非常相似。我们的教堂和修道院没有洋葱状的圆顶。捷克的食物与奥地利和巴伐利亚的食物非常相似，关于谁做的饺子更好的争论已经持续了几个世纪(抱歉，我的德国朋友们)。还有啤酒!不好意思了，安海斯-布希，但百威是古老的捷克啤酒，所以你被刷掉了。布瓦镇和皮尔森镇(皮尔森啤酒得名于此)正好位于波西米亚。摩拉维亚和斯洛伐克的南部地区出产极好的葡萄酒，而伏特加充其量只能供那些无法喝到slivovice（梅子白兰地）等高级蒸馏酒的绝望醉汉和布拉格夜总会的常客们饮用。
如今，捷克和斯洛伐克都是北约和欧盟的成员，而且可以说比一些历史悠久、实力强大得多的西方国家拥有更健全的民主制度。在整个反恐战争中，捷克一直与我们的美国和英国的朋友和盟友站在一起，向前部署到阿富汗，并接受流血的后果(尽管上个世纪这些朋友曾两次背叛捷克)。
Today both the Czechs and Slovaks are part of NATO and the EU, and arguably have more robust democratic institutions than some much older and more powerful western countries. Czechs have stood side by side with our American and British friends and allies throughout the war on terror, forward deploying in Afghanistan and accepting the consequences of that in blood (despite the two above mentioned betrayals by these same friends in the previous century).
至于文化的其他方面，比如对北美游客来说，捷克的美食和建筑可能与巴伐利亚非常相似。我们的教堂和修道院没有洋葱状的圆顶。捷克的食物与奥地利和巴伐利亚的食物非常相似，关于谁做的饺子更好的争论已经持续了几个世纪(抱歉，我的德国朋友们)。还有啤酒!不好意思了，安海斯-布希，但百威是古老的捷克啤酒，所以你被刷掉了。布瓦镇和皮尔森镇(皮尔森啤酒得名于此)正好位于波西米亚。摩拉维亚和斯洛伐克的南部地区出产极好的葡萄酒，而伏特加充其量只能供那些无法喝到slivovice（梅子白兰地）等高级蒸馏酒的绝望醉汉和布拉格夜总会的常客们饮用。
如今，捷克和斯洛伐克都是北约和欧盟的成员，而且可以说比一些历史悠久、实力强大得多的西方国家拥有更健全的民主制度。在整个反恐战争中，捷克一直与我们的美国和英国的朋友和盟友站在一起，向前部署到阿富汗，并接受流血的后果(尽管上个世纪这些朋友曾两次背叛捷克)。
As a last point, I’ll say that Czechs (and of course the Poles) fought with distinction on the side of the western allies during World War 2. Czechs (including Madeline Albright’s family) fled the Nazis westward, through Germany (!), rather than choosing the seemingly easier route east to Russia. A later generation continued to flee west but for different reasons.
To call Czechs and Slovaks Eastern Europeans is not only wrong but displays profound ignorance of the region’s historical and cultural roots. Other than shared ancestral origins dating back over 2 millennia or more, a shared love of hockey and tennis (more recently), and a brief but brutal occupation by Russian (yes Russian) forces, we really have very little in common with Russia and the rest of Eastern Europe.
最后一点，我要说的是捷克(当然还有波兰)在第二次世界大战中与西方盟国并肩作战。捷克人(包括玛德琳·奥尔布赖特的家人)为了躲避纳粹向西逃跑，他们穿过德国，而不是选择看似更容易的路线向东到达俄罗斯。
把捷克人和斯洛伐克人称为东欧人不仅是错误的，而且显示出对该地区的历史和文化根源的极度无知。除了我们共同的祖先可以追溯到2000多年前，共同热爱曲棍球和网球(更近一些)，以及被俄罗斯(是的，俄罗斯)军队短暂而残酷的占领（brutal occupation）之外，我们与俄罗斯和东欧其他国家没有什么共同点。
To call Czechs and Slovaks Eastern Europeans is not only wrong but displays profound ignorance of the region’s historical and cultural roots. Other than shared ancestral origins dating back over 2 millennia or more, a shared love of hockey and tennis (more recently), and a brief but brutal occupation by Russian (yes Russian) forces, we really have very little in common with Russia and the rest of Eastern Europe.
最后一点，我要说的是捷克(当然还有波兰)在第二次世界大战中与西方盟国并肩作战。捷克人(包括玛德琳·奥尔布赖特的家人)为了躲避纳粹向西逃跑，他们穿过德国，而不是选择看似更容易的路线向东到达俄罗斯。
把捷克人和斯洛伐克人称为东欧人不仅是错误的，而且显示出对该地区的历史和文化根源的极度无知。除了我们共同的祖先可以追溯到2000多年前，共同热爱曲棍球和网球(更近一些)，以及被俄罗斯(是的，俄罗斯)军队短暂而残酷的占领（brutal occupation）之外，我们与俄罗斯和东欧其他国家没有什么共同点。
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