笑谈俄国熊:英国是如何成功打造出象征俄罗斯的动物的?
2021-06-29 yzy86 20815
正文翻译


视频简介:发布于2020年7月2日,发布者为俄罗斯人Setarko,点赞6906,点踩146~
楼主口述内容(楼主自称26代纯血俄罗斯人):
=熊硕大、凶残还喜欢雪,俄罗斯人很愿意让自己和这些特质联系在一起,但现实中的熊很怂,但哪有十全十美的事,法国人选了一只连帽子都不需要戴的鸟(鸡冠),中国人选出的熊猫连交配都懒得,而西班牙人选出的公牛还不定期被他们公开屠杀取乐呢
=表面原因可以在异教中找到,古斯拉夫人确实崇拜熊,古代俄罗斯人中确实存在拜熊教
=深层原因:俄国熊是近两百年前由英国人发明且极为成功的宣传工具,相关历史脉络:
-在16世纪神圣罗马帝国的男爵西吉斯蒙德·冯·赫伯斯坦的莫斯科游记《notes on muscovite affairs》中,熊在这些鲜活、富有异国情调且让人难忘的莫斯科故事中占有一席之地,比如受过训练的熊参加俄罗斯展览会,以及在1526年那格外漫长的寒冬中,饥饿的熊(包括受过训练的熊)开始攻击人并破屋而入,这个故事成了俄罗斯的熊在俄罗斯城市里逛来逛去等相关meme的起源,后世的其他作家在此基础上加工改编,使该故事失去了原意,并进一步强化了这个刻板印象;
-后来欧洲人发现伊凡雷帝有时候会用熊来处决犯人,此时熊已然成为俄罗斯的一种特征,但尚未变成国家的象征
-18世纪时,在印刷业中占据主导地位的英国炮制出一系列版画,其中用熊来表现俄罗斯,而从《欧罗巴种族》系列开始,俄罗斯开始以熊的形象出现于数百张英国的讽刺版画中
-俄国熊的负面形象在西方世界中最终成形,是因为克里米亚战争(1853),英法祭出的各种文宣对其完成了最后的润色
-和俄欧关系不同,19世纪时的俄美关系非常牢靠,此时俄国熊的象征意义在美国仍是正面的,直到冷战,当时讽刺画中的苏联成了一只咄咄逼人的熊
=19世纪前的俄罗斯人并不会把自己和熊联系在一起
=欧洲人印象中的熊是嗜血野兽,这是因为在大部分欧洲童话故事中,熊大多是反派角色;但在俄国的传说中,熊虽粗野但是仁慈的猛兽,所以俄罗斯人可以接受这种勾连,也从来不去和熊撇清关系,如今,熊经过美化已经成为了现代俄罗斯的象征,更成了统一俄罗斯党党徽的一部分

评论翻译
FelixDzerzhinsky
in west europe whe know that all russians have one bear, one tank and one AK

我们西欧人都知道每一个俄罗斯人都有一头熊,一辆坦克和一把AK

And a Lada

(回复)还有辆拉达车

And nukes in the barn.

(回复)而且谷仓里都藏着核武器哦
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Don't forget their universal grandmother Babushka!

(回复)可别忘了他们那些能横行宇宙的俄罗斯老大娘!

Pb 207.2
As an American who grew up during the “Cold War”, I always thought the bear symbolized strength, and I thought the Soviets chose it. This is very interesting!

作为一个在“冷战”期间长大的美国人,我一直都以为熊象征着力量,我还以为是苏联人选了它呢。视频很有意思!
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British propaganda is much more powerful than many gives it credit. Especially in anglosphere. If you think Napoleon was short, check where it came from... ;)

(回复)英国人的文宣远比很多人以为的强大。在英语圈尤其如此。要是你想到拿破仑就会觉得他是个矮子,那可以去查查这种印象的出处…

kloic
A great french humorist (colluche) said "Do you kbow why the cock is the symbol of the France ? Because it's the only animal that still sing with the two feet in his own shit"

有位伟大的法国幽默作家曾说过,“你们知道为什么法国的象征是公鸡吗?因为这是唯一一种会在唱歌时把两只脚踩进自己排泄物的动物”
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101jir
The kicker is that apparently the Unicorn was believed to be a natural enemy of lions, England's symbol. So very Scottish.

神来之笔是:显然,独角兽据信是狮子的天敌,而狮子是英格兰的象征。这就很像苏格兰人干出的事了。


England: We chose the lion as a symbol of majesty and power, what do you have for your national symbol Scotland?
Scotland: Well in that case we will pick the natural enemy of lions.
England: Hyenas?
Scotland: No silly, unicorns!

英格兰:我们选了狮子作为王权和力量的象征,那你们苏格兰的民族象征是什么呢?
苏格兰:好吧,如果是这样的话,我们会选狮子的天敌。
英格兰:鬣狗吗?
苏格兰:不是哦你这笨瓜,是独角兽!

The Doc BOI
Whenever I think of a bear, two things come to mind
1. Russia
2. The Californian flag

每当我想到一头熊,我的脑海里就会蹦出两个东西:
1)俄罗斯
2)加州州旗

Fun fact: Parts of California were Russian at one point

(回复)有趣的事实:加州的一部分一度属于俄国人

mihanich
Fun fact: mentioning bear in proto-slavic was a taboo, because according to Slavic beliefs, calling a bear by his name will summon him. Hence naming bear by its name was avoided, and epithets like "medveď" i.e. "the honey eater" was used instead of its actual name which was so tabooized it was forgotten long time ago, so the word for "bear" in all Slavic languages is derived from this avoiding epithet "honey eater" or medveď. Its the same story with Germanic words for "bear" - bear, Bär, björn etc, all derived from avoiding epithet "the brown one". The original word for "bear" in the ancestral languages of the above mentioned language groups was likely related to latin "ursus" and greek "arktos".

有趣的事实:在原始斯拉夫语中,提到熊是一种禁忌,因为根据斯拉夫人的信仰,叫了熊的名字就会召唤它。因此,人们会避免用熊的本名来给它命名,而是用“medved”(也即“吃蜂蜜者”)这样的绰号来代替它的真名,由于这种禁忌太过深入人心,原来那个词早就被遗忘了,所以在所有的斯拉夫语言中,“熊”这个词都是由“吃蜂蜜者”或“medved”这样的绰号衍生而来的。日耳曼语中“熊”这个词也是同样的情况,包括bear、Bär、björn等,都衍生于“棕色的那个”这一带有避讳色彩的绰号。在上述语族的祖先语言中,原先表示“熊”的那个词可能和拉丁语中的“ursus”和希腊语中的“arktos”有关。

medvjed/medved actually means "the honey seer" med means honey and vediti means "to know"

(回复)medvjed/medved的意思其实是“蜂蜜先知”,med的意思是蜂蜜,而vediti的意思是“知道”
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gerlindelang
i love how mischa is floating away tied to balloons

我就喜欢米莎(1980年苏联奥运会)系在气球上飘走的样子

ABbanta
The Russian bear is the brown grizzly bear which is different from the black bear.. Black bears tend to be more cowardly than Grizzly bears... grizzly bears usually go after u no matter what.. even if you are running away from it before it even starts chasing you. You can see 99% of the time in posters or whatever that a brown grizzly bear is used to symbolize Russia, not a black one.

俄罗斯的熊是棕色的灰熊,和黑熊是两种东西..黑熊往往比灰熊更怂…通常情况下,无论发生什么灰熊都会去追你…哪怕在它开始追你之前你就已经开始逃跑了。你会发现,在99%的海报中,用来象征俄罗斯的都是灰熊而不是黑熊。

Ben
The association between Russia and bears is also a metaphor about how they fight in wars. To begin their slow and lumbering (like a bear coming out of sleep from hibernation) then they become ferocious and brutal to their adversary. Essentially it's due to the speed of Russian mobilisation due to the vastness of their territory.

俄罗斯和熊之间的联系,也是对俄罗斯人战法的一种隐喻。一开始,他们行动缓慢,而且很笨重(就像一头刚从冬眠中醒来的熊),然后他们会变得很凶悍,对敌人也会很残暴。根本上说,原因在于俄罗斯国土辽阔导致的动员速度。
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random person
it's interesting how various European cultures interprets the bear in their folk stories, in romanian folklore the bear is seen as a dumb and grumpy old man by the name "Moș Martin" (old man Martin/old Martin), he is usually a neutral character who would help the hero only if he gets lots of fish, forest fruts and honey afterwards, there's even an origin story on why his got a short tail, in "the bear tricked by the fox" he wants to get a lot of fish without working so the fox convinces him that if he brakes the ice and sticks it's tail in to the cold water the fish are gonna bite it so that way he can fish without moving a muscle, of course the fox tricks him so his tail got stuck in the frozen water and the only way out was for him to break his long tail off.

不同的欧洲文化在其民间传说中对熊的不同诠释还是很有意思的,在罗马尼亚的民间传说中,熊被视为一个愚蠢且脾气很坏的老人,名字叫作“Moș Martin”(老马丁),通常情况下他是一个中性角色,他只有在得到很多鱼、林中果实和蜂蜜以后才会去帮助那个英雄,甚至还有一个关于他为什么有条短尾巴的缘起故事。在《被狐狸欺骗的熊》中,他希望能不努力就抓到很多鱼,于是狐狸就说服他,如果他把冰层弄碎,把它的尾巴伸进冷水里,鱼就会来咬,这样他一动不动也能捕到鱼了,当然了,狐狸是骗他的,所以他的尾巴卡在了结冻的水里,唯一的解脱之法就是把他的长尾巴弄断。

Russia have exact the same story, but here was a wolf instead of bear. In russian stories bears usually positive characters, but somewhat naive and easy to anger.

(回复)俄罗斯也有一模一样的故事,但主角不是熊而是狼。俄罗斯故事中的熊通常是正面角色,但自带几分天真,还易怒。

/
The stereotypes I learned about nations from history classes in my Russian school:

我在俄罗斯学校里的历史课上学到的各国刻板印象是这样说的:

Britain is really clever and well-mannered, you must respect them, and also it is greedy and selfish, so you must respect them but expect to be betrayed by them.
And the USA is not really an enemy, they just don't understand what exactly they are doing.

英国是真的很睿智,而且举止端庄,你必须敬重他们,但英国的另一面是贪婪且自私,所以你必须在敬重他们的同时,做好被他们背叛的准备。
而美国谈不上是真正的敌人,他们只是搞不清楚自己在干什么而已。

America and Russia have always been more a like then most other nations. We were both frontier nations born from rough people fighting against nature. America really likes to larp as west rome and Russia is the same way with east. Both nations still have a large Christian faction with in. Both cover vast amount of land of different types and started mainly as farming nations. These are just some that come to mind..

美国和俄罗斯一直都比其他大多数国家更为相像。我们都是位于边边角角的国家,都是在粗野的人与天斗与地斗中诞生的。美国酷爱喜欢扮演西罗马,而俄罗斯也是一样,酷爱扮演东罗马。基督教集团在这两个国家中势力都很大。这两个国家都拥有海量不同类型的土地,并且大体上都是以农业国家为起点。这些只是我能想到的一些情况。

Russia and France were also the only true allies America had in the early years. It wasn't until the Fed came in to being that we became allies with England.

俄国和法国也是美国早年仅有的真正的盟友。直到出现了美联储,我们才和英国成为了盟友。

Karen O
I am deeply disappointed that I will not be receiving a bear upon my check-in to a hotel in Russia. It's funny how as countries we can easily get stereotyped (source: am Canadian), but if you're going to get an emblematic animal it's better to be a bear than a chicken (or a fur-bearing water rodent LOL).

我在俄罗斯一家宾馆里办入住的时候都没能收到一只熊,这实在是让我失望至极。各国很容易就能得到刻板印象,这也还挺搞笑的(我很懂因为我是加拿大人),但如果会被分到一个象征性的动物,那最好是一头熊,而不是一只鸡,最好也别是一只可以当成毛皮兽的水生啮齿动物呵呵。
(译注:加拿大的国家象征是海狸)

kristianleader11
Fun fact poland had a bear as soldier in the army, Google wotjek the bear.
Germans didnt know what was going on, When the saw slavs with a bear.

有趣的事实:波兰在军队中起用过熊兵,可以搜索wotjek the bear
德国人看到带着一头熊的斯拉夫人时,当时就懵了。
(译注:wotjek是一只叙利亚棕熊,在二战期间隶属于波兰流亡政府第2兵团第22炮兵运补连,在卡西诺战役中协助了士兵搬运弹药)


Club d'affaires Cigares & Bretagne
About the European coat of arms with lions. It is very possible, that it is a christian influence.
The bear was a main totem animal for the Kelts and the Norse.
He was considered as the king of the animals.

关于欧洲盾形纹章中的狮子,这很有可能是来自基督教的影响。
对凯尔特人和挪威人来说,熊是地位重要的图腾动物。
它被认为是万兽之王。

CesarTheKing
I like how depictions change from the Black Bear (cowardice, weakness, clumsiness, etc) to Grizzly Bear (power, strength, ferocity) depending on the country's relationship with and view of Russia. It's a very versatile caricature, and there aren't many that can be used for both weakness and strength.

我就喜欢根据某国与俄罗斯的关系以及对俄罗斯看法的嬗变,在描摹上出现了从黑熊(胆小、软弱、笨拙等)到灰熊(权力、力量、凶悍)的变化。这是一副万能的讽刺画,没有多少讽刺画可以同时表达优点和缺点。

PurpleDevil R
Wales: dragon
Scotland: unicorn
England: lion
England chose a lion, the only non-mythical creature to be chosen on the isle.
Should’ve chosen a Griffin.
And Britain overall should be a Phoenix.

威尔士:龙
苏格兰:独角兽
英格兰:狮子
英格兰选了狮子,是这个岛上唯一被选中的非神秘生物。
本该选狮鹫的。
而英国作为一个整体,应该是一只凤凰。

The three lions represent that England was the third property of the Normans, the other two being Normandy (two lions) and Aquitaine (one lion).

(回复)三只狮子代表了英格兰是诺曼人的第三块属地,另两块是诺曼底(两只狮子)和阿基坦(一只狮子)
(译注:阿基坦位于法国西南沿海,南接伊比利亚半岛)


Before the Normans, England was unified under the Kingdom of Wessex, whose main symbol was a golden wyvern. The Welsh tended to symbolise the English in their art as a white wyvern as well.

在诺曼人之前,英格兰统一在威赛克斯(即西撒克逊)王国之下,后者的主要象征是一只金色的双足飞龙。而威尔士人在自己的艺术中,往往会把英格兰人的象征画成一只白色的双足飞龙。
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The earliest symbol of the Anglo-Saxons was probably a white horse, given that it was the flag of Kent (the earliest Anglo-Saxon kingdom) and that the two brothers who conquered Britain for the Anglo-Saxons were named Hengist and Horsa in myth, which translates to Stallion and Horse.

盎格鲁-撒克逊人最早的象征很可能是一匹白马,因为肯特郡(肯特郡是最早的盎格鲁-撒克逊王国)的旗帜就是一匹白马,而在神话中,为盎格鲁-撒克逊人征服英国的两兄弟,名字为Hengist和Horsa,译为公马和马。


Z Z
For Serbs, biggest symbols of Russia are Orthodox religion and alcohol consumption, bear isn't that prominent. Btw. we had dancing bears in Serbia (and the Balkans) in major cities up to the early 2000s. They were usually handled by Gypsies.

对塞尔维亚人来说,俄罗斯的象征是东正教和饮酒量,熊没有那么突出。顺便一提,我们塞尔维亚的大城市(巴尔干地区也是有的)直到二十一世纪初还有会跳舞的熊。通常是吉普赛人带着它们。
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For me the biggest symbol of the balkan slavs is hatred for gyppos.

(回复)在我看来,巴尔干斯拉夫人最重要的象征就是对吉普赛人的憎恨。
黑龍 - Hắc Long

The Chinese symbol used to be the dragon (also for Korea, Japan, and Vietnam), but it became a Panda Bear because of how Europeans view Dragons.

中国的象征本来是一条龙(朝鲜、日本、越南也是),可是因为欧洲人对龙的看法,就变成了熊猫。

Orange Man TM
always thought of the bear as a powerful but humble creature. will generally mind its own business, but when provoked or attacked it will tear your face off.

一直都觉得熊是一种强大却谦逊的生灵。通常情况下是只管自己的,但要是被招惹或攻击了,它就会把你的脸给撕下来。

cvc
I studied in Russia when I lived there for a bit, visited Moscow. I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. A boyfriend beating the hell out of his girlfriend because she made him crash, then a sub sequent huge crowd of males beat the boyfriend, c beams glitter off the Kremlin....but none of that compares to watching a literal bear drive a car around in a circus. All these memories will be lost....like tears in the rain. Until someone else goes and watches the bear drive a car. Time to die.

我在俄罗斯学习的时候,在那里住过一小段时间,当时我造访了莫斯科。
而我见过的胜景是你们这些人类绝对无法相信的。
有个男朋友把他的女朋友往死里打,就因为她害他出车祸了,然后就有乌泱泱一大片男的过来暴打这个男朋友,C射线在克里姆林宫上闪闪发光…但这些都完全没法和眼看着一只如假包换的熊在马戏团里开着辆车转圈圈相比。
所有这些记忆终将消逝…一如泪水消失在雨水之中。直到有另一个人去那里看熊熊开车。死而无憾矣。
(译注:层主套用了电影《银翼杀手》片尾生化人的诗意独白)

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