为什么法国与其他西方发达国家(经济、政治、社会等)异常不同。比如和英国、美国、加拿大、德国、澳大利亚等等?
2021-07-05 兰陵笑笑生 15658
正文翻译

Why has France been unusually different from the rest of the Western developed nations overall (economically, politically, socially, etc.) like the UK, USA, Canada, Germany, Australia, etc?

为什么法国与其他西方发达国家(经济、政治、社会等)异常不同。比如和英国、美国、加拿大、德国、澳大利亚等等?

评论翻译
Andréa Mathias
, Master Literature & Journalism, University of Paris (1996)

巴黎大学文学与新闻学硕士

France is a thousand years old.
Get that into your head.
She can, at a pinch, ask herself what makes her different from her British neighbour who is the same age:
but she is not comparing herself with little girls born in the 18th or 19th century.
The aim of the game is survival. Let's see if you'll all still be around in a thousand more years

法兰西是一个有一千年历史的国家。
把这一点记在脑子里。
再有必要的时候,她可以问自己,她与同龄的英国邻居有何不同。
但她并没有必要与18或19世纪出生的小女孩进行比较。
这场游戏的目的是生存。让我们看看再过一千年,你们是否都还在。

John Kim
I’m not saying US is perfect, but when people underestimate her like that… it’s hard to take it seriously considering the enormity of the nation compared to France in almost every way

我不是说美国是完美的,但当人们像这样低估她的时候真的很......考虑到这个国家在几乎所有方面与法国相比都很巨大,很难认真对待这种比较。

Ross Brannigan
Just remember who won the war of independence for the rebels agains the British crown. It was the French.

记住一件事,是谁帮叛军从英国的皇冠上取得了独立。是法国。

Angel Gomez
The Americans won the war, they had 40,000 troops, French did contribute, but the balk of the fighting was by Americans.
The allies the U.S had didn’t even offset the German and Indian allies the British empire had.
It was a team effort, but it was mostly the Americans who won and beat the British.

是美国人赢得了战争,他们有4万军队,法国人确实做出了贡献,但战斗的主力是美国人。
美国的盟友甚至没有抵消大英帝国的德国和印度盟友。
这是一个团队努力的结果,但主要是美国人赢得了胜利并击败了英国人。

Kaspar Pena
Nope. Not only did the French supply much materiel and troops to the thirteen colonies, but both France and Spain expanded the war to include much of the Western Hemisphere. French naval power is what disrupted British sea routes long enough for the victory at Yorktown, and for many other engagements. The British actually shifted their focus to the Caribbean, reflecting the reality that the war had expanded to become a land grab free for all, and they wanted to seize some of the most profitable real estate in the world.
The United States should more be credited for doggedly holding on in the face of repeated defeats and the capture of many of their important cities, rather than the final defeat of the British, which came with serious foreign assistance and British distraction. That is to say: the United States would probably have won the war anyways, but the image we have today of their clear-cut conventional victory would not have been possible without the French.

不。法国不仅向13个殖民地提供了大量的物资和军队,而且法国和西班牙都将战争扩大到了西半球的大部分地区。法国的海军力量扰乱了英国的海上航线,足以使约克城战役和其他许多战役取得胜利。英国人实际上把重点转移到了加勒比地区,这反映了这样一个现实:战争已经扩大到成为一场免费的土地掠夺战,他们想夺取世界上最有利可图的一些地皮。
美国更应该归功于其在屡战屡败和许多重要城市被攻占的情况下仍然可以顽强地坚持下来,而不是在严重的外国援助和英国的分心下最终打败了英国人。也就是说:美国很可能无论如何都会赢得战争,但如果没有法国人,我们今天对他们那些明确取得的常规胜利的印象是不可能存在的。

Daniel Eyre
Ah not quite.
The “Continental army” had almost all of its equipment supplied by France, without which the rebellion probably would’ve fizzled.
And the French contribution at Yorktown was decisive, without it Cornwallis would’ve won the battle and the war would not have ended there and then. The American rebels had been fighting the British for 8 long years without much overall success and it took French intervention to force an end.

啊哈,不完全是这样。
“大陆军”几乎所有的装备都是由法国提供的,如果没有这些装备,这场叛乱可能就会泡汤了。
法国在约克镇的贡献是决定性的,如果没有它,康沃利斯就会赢得这场战斗,战争就不会在那时结束。美国叛军与英国人作战长达8年之久,却没有取得多少全面的成功,是法国的干预才迫使其结束。

SG Clarke
The thing that is almost always ignored by us Americans, is that one of the biggest inducements for the British to end the war in America, was the threat of the French (1778–83), Spanish (1779–83) and Dutch (1780–84) in Europe and beyond. The Royal Navy was not at its peak at the time, and the combined Franco-Spanish fleet was a serious threat, with an abortive invasion of Southern England in 1779. The Dutch added another 20 ships of the line to the naval forces arrayed against Britain. France and Spain attacked various key British outposts: Minorca, captured in 1782; Gibraltar, under siege from 1779 until 1783, after the war in America was concluded; France along with the Kingdom of Mysore, attacked British outposts in eastern India until peace was concluded in 1784; a planned invasion of Jamaica in 1782, as well as capturing several British islands in the West Indies; and Spain reconquering Florida (which had been ceded to the UK in 1763). For the British, involvement of these European powers changed the American War into a world war and it was one in which Britain struggled. Winding down the war with Americans was necessary for Britain to face its other, more significant, enemies, and eventually regain some of the standing it had already lost.

几乎总是被我们美国人忽视的一点是,英国人结束美洲战争的最大诱因之一,是法国(1778-83)、西班牙(1779-83)和荷兰(1780-84)在欧洲及其他地区的威胁。当时皇家海军并不处于巅峰状态,而法国和西班牙的联合舰队是一个严重的威胁,虽然1779年对英格兰南部的入侵流产了。但荷兰人又为对抗英国的海军力量增加了20艘战舰。法国和西班牙攻击了英国的各个重要前哨基地。米诺卡岛,1782年被占领;直布罗陀,从1779年到1783年美洲战争结束后被围困;法国与迈索尔王国一起攻击英国在印度东部的前哨,直到1784年达成和平;1782年计划入侵牙买加,并占领西印度群岛的几个英国岛屿;西班牙重新征服佛罗里达(1763年被割让给英国)。对英国来说,这些欧洲大国的介入使美国战争变成了一场世界大战,英国在这场战争中十分挣扎。结束与美国人的战争是必要的,这样英国才能面对其他更重要的敌人,并最终恢复它已经失去的一些地位。
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Dev D.
So? Back then France was a powerful nation, one of the most powerful, and it controlled a great deal of land on the American continent. Today is a secondary ally to the United States.
Or did you forget that the US helped liberate France from Nazi Germany? That was much more recent than the American Revolutionary War.
Have you not figured out how time works? It tends to move forwards. 800 years ago, from Mongolia formed the worlds most powerful empire. Today Mongolia is barely of any significance on the world stage.

所以呢?是,当年法国是一个强大的国家,而且是最强大的国家之一,它控制着美洲大陆上的大量土地。但是今天它只是美国的一个次要盟友。
或者你忘记了美国曾帮助法国从纳粹德国手中解放出来?那段时间可比美国革命战争要近多了。
你难道没有弄清楚时间是如何运作的吗?它倾向于往前走。800年前,蒙古形成了世界上最强大的帝国。今天,蒙古在世界舞台上几乎没有任何意义。
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Atitebi Timilehin
There would be no France today if USA didn’t join world war 2. Rest

如果美国不加入第二次世界大战,今天就不会有法国了。就这样。

Daniel Eyre
Nonsense. Nazi Germany lost the war to the Soviet unx and would’ve still lost anyway without US joining.
And the third Reich could never survive economically anyway. There would still be a France today had the USA not joined.

胡说八道。纳粹德国在战争中输给了苏联,如果没有美国的加入,它还是会输。
而且第三帝国无论如何都不可能在经济上生存。如果美国不加入,今天还是会有一个法国。

Dev D.
And then who would take over France? The USSR, I presume? Sounds lovely! Just ask Poland.
France capitulated to Germany, it would not have been able to free itself, no matter what De Gaulle said. The Western allies restored the French government to power.

然后谁会接管法国?苏联,我猜?听起来真不错!问问波兰就知道了。
法国向德国投降了,无论戴高乐说什么,它都不可能获得自由。是西方盟国恢复了法国政府的权力。

Thomas Adbours
France has a long socialist and communist tradition. The communists were the main political force in France at the time and for the decades to come, they affected greatly the rebuilding of the country after the war. It would not have been a domination of USSR as for Poland or other eastern countries as the French communist party - that fought bravely in the Résistance against nazis, hence having much legitimacy in the eyes of the population - was already recognized by USSR would have likely been put in charge.
The USA and Roosevelt had the plan to impose their own government in France, the “Allied Military Government of Occupied Territories”. It took the audacity of De Gaulle, the obvious reluctance of the French population, and the support of the Brits after some time for the “Gouvernement Provisoire de la République française” to finally lead France after the Liberation.

法国历来有着悠久的社会主义和共产主义传统。共产党是当时法国的主要政治力量,在战后的几十年里,他们对战后国家的重建产生了巨大影响。它不会像波兰或其他东方国家那样被苏联统治,因为法国共产党--在抵抗纳粹的斗争中英勇作战,因此在民众眼中具有很大的合法性--已经获得了苏联的承认,很可能会执掌政权。
美国和罗斯福也曾计划在法国建立自己的政府,即"占领区盟国军事政府"。是戴高乐的大胆、法国民众明显的不情愿、以及英国人在一段时间后的支持,使得"法兰西共和国临时政府"才最终在解放后能够领导法国。

Daniel Eyre
France has no more any “long socialist and communist tradition” than any other developed nation. They have some of the most dynamic private enterprises in the world.

法国和任何发达国家一样没有“长期的社会主义和共产主义传统”。他们有着一些世界上最具活力的私营企业。

Peter Carter
The French communists almost started a civil war before Germany surrendered. Paris has had several communes in the Industrial Age, so yes France does have a communist tradition in their polity (check the history of agricultural and industrial subsidies plus the patent application system)

在德国投降之前,法国的共产主义者几乎发动了一场内战。巴黎在工业时代有几个公社,所以是的,法国在他们的政体中确实有共产主义传统(谷歌一下法国的农业和工业补贴的历史以及专利申请制度)。

Daniel Eyre
What complete nonsense.
It was Germany who reinvigorated Communist movements across Europe when they engineered the beginning of the Bolshevik revolution by setting up Pravda and basically transferring Lenin from Switzerland to St Petersburg. Oner of the most irresponsible war crimes in history. And the disintegration of the German national economy & institutions & society and the rise of Communism in Germany had NOTHING whatsoever to do with France; they were the result of the British naval blockade and the German military mismanaging their economy & governing and the Bolshevik revolution was the last spark needed.
The communes in Paris have nothing directly to do with Communism beyond being paid lip service.
Agricultural and industrial subsidies were commonplace in all developed economies prior to the 1980s and France’s continuation fo them has been no more than most developed nations.

真是一派胡言。
是德国重振了整个欧洲的共产主义运动,他们通过建立《真理报》并基本上将列宁从瑞士转移到圣彼得堡,策划了布尔什维克革命的开始。这是历史上最不负责任的战争罪行之一。德国国民经济、机构和社会的解体以及共产主义在德国的兴起与法国没有任何关系;它们是英国海军封锁和德国军方对其经济和管理不善的结果,而布尔什维克革命是所需的最后的火花。
巴黎的公社除了口惠而实不至外,与共产主义没有直接关系。
在1980年代之前,农业和工业补贴在所有发达经济体中是很常见的,法国对它们的延续也做得也不比大多数发达国家多。
(这两位就法国究竟有没有共产主义传统吵了几十楼,就不往下翻了...)

Gabor Kiss
What is mind-blowing is that in the Saint-Denis Basilica next to Paris, the tomb of the earliest king is that of the Frankish king Clovis I (466–511), the founder of the the founder of the Merovingian dynasty. Yes, Clovis was born 10 years before the Western Roman Empire collapsed!
So the thousand years only is debatable, it’s definitely more.

令人震惊的是,在巴黎旁边的圣丹尼大教堂里,最早的国王的坟墓是法兰克国王克洛维一世(466-511)的坟墓,他是墨洛温王朝的创始人。是的,克洛维出生在西罗马帝国崩溃前的10年!因此,“只有”一千年的说法是有争议的。肯定是更多。

Robert Walker
Britain is only 314 years old. (Act of unx 1706–7)
So France is gloriously 3 times as old.

英国只有314岁。(1706-1707年英格兰苏格兰联合法案)
所以法国的历史“光荣”地是它的三倍。

Anthony Bianco
France has had many governments in that time under the name of France. Administratively, France is very young.

在那段时间里,在法国的名义下有过很多政府。所以在行政上,法国是非常年轻的。

Don
by your standards China has france beat by a margin!

按照你的标准,中国大大地击败了法国!

Christopher Harvey
I dont think the question was supposed to get you this triggered

我不认为这个问题是让你这样回答
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Danielle Zio
, Manager

经理

Answered June 25
Every culture is unique. Trying to label them by development level is scientific but has no use. Why are French are not like Germans? All Europeans used to be closed. Some lived in warmer and in colder climates. French always liked good wine. It is in their culture. They were individualists and highly developed. They are not only were industrious but the first to start to think of revolution. They are not boring like Germans and Englishmen. Their language is elegant. Why are they like that? Your temperament is an unique combination of climate, resources and culture.

每种文化都是独一无二的。试图用发展水平来给它们贴标签是科学的,但没有用。为什么法国人不像德国人那样?所有的欧洲人曾经都是封闭的。有些人生活在温暖的气候中,有些人生活在寒冷的气候中。法国人总是喜欢好酒。这是在他们的文化中。他们是个人主义者,高度发达。他们不仅勤劳,而且是第一个开始考虑革命的人。他们不像德国人和英国人那样无聊。他们的语言很优雅。为什么他们会这样?因为你的气质是气候、资源和文化的独特组合。
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Daniel Eyre
There are a lot of similarities between Germans from the more western regions and French people from the more Northern regions. Alsatian French are culturally German.

来自西部地区的德国人和来自北方地区的法国人有很多相似之处。阿尔萨斯地区的法国人在文化上是德国人。

Daniel Eyre
, New Zealander

新西兰人

Answered June 26
Huh? France has been unusually different from the rest of the Western developed nations?! In what way do you think so?
Because it doesn’t look especially different economically, politically, socially, etc. to the rest of western Europe to me at all!
If anything: It seems to be the most influential of the western European nations, at least in recent centuries. Although I notice that you’re only comparing it to anglophone nations & Germany and not to “western developed nations” in western Europe such as it neighbours Belgium, Spain, Italy, the Netherlands, Switzerland etc. Even given that: France has definitely had an influence on Canada and to a lesser degree the USA. And France of course has always had many fundamental similarities with the British Isles once you scratch the surface.
I don’t think you have a clue what you’re talking about John Kim.

嗯?法国与其他西方发达国家非常不同?你是怎么想到这个的?
因为在我看来,它在经济上、政治上、社会上等方面与西欧其他国家根本没有什么特别的不同!
如果有的话:它似乎是西欧国家中最有影响力的,至少在最近几个世纪。尽管我注意到你只把它与英语国家和德国相比较,而不是与西欧的"西方发达国家"相比较,如它的邻居比利时、西班牙、意大利、荷兰、瑞士等。即使考虑到这一点。法国肯定对加拿大有影响,在较小程度上对美国也有影响。当然,从表面上看,法国与英伦三岛一直有许多基本相似之处。
我认为你根本不知道你在说什么,约翰-金(题主)。

A. Ximab
, former Assistant Professor at San Diego State University (2005-2013)

,曾任圣地亚哥州立大学助理教授(2005-2013年)

Answered June 25
Except for Germany, the countries you mention are all English-speaking and have a family resemblance. And the Germans have had to hide their “specialness” since the Nazi period. If you included Italy and Spain, perhaps France wouldn’t stand out as much.

除了德国,你提到的国家都是讲英语的,有家族相似性。而德国人从纳粹时期开始就不得不隐藏自己的"特殊性"。如果你把意大利和西班牙包括在内,也许法国就不会那么突出了。

Tom Ruthemann
Fri
What are you trying to insinuate in relation to Germany?

你对德国想暗示些什么?

John Kim
“specialness”?

"特殊性"?

Aurelio Bautista
Answered June 26
In this question there is a pattern: you are willing comparing a country forged by Roman Empire and Catholic Church with countries with an English matrix, lesser Roman influence more anglosaxon and nordic influence, and major Protestant religious influence. Maybe this is one of the main reasons for the difference.

在这个问题中,有一个模式:你在积极地把一个由罗马帝国和天主教会打造的国家与具有英国基质的、罗马的影响较小、盎格鲁撒克逊人和北欧人的影响较大、新教的宗教影响也很大的国家进行比较。也许这就是造成差异的主要原因之一。

Hajo Mueller
, lived in Darmstadt, Germany

住在德国的达姆施塔特

Answered June 26
Every country is different, but France by no means has been unusually different.

每个国家都是不同的,但法国绝不是异常不同的。

Alex Valbel
, A Parisian entrepreneur in China

一个在中国的巴黎企业家

Answered Wed
All Western countries are equally "unusually different" from each other. France is nothing special.

所有西方国家都彼此“异常不同”。法国没有什么特别的。

Vasu Pandian
, former Retired Government Employees at Government (1982-2019)
Answered Thu
France is a unitary semi-presidential republic with its capital in Paris, the country's largest city and main cultural and commercial centre.
Despite the wealth of the nation, an inadequate financial model and inequitable taxation system coupled with endless and costly wars meant that the kingdom was left in a precarious economic situation by the end of the 18th century. Especially costly were the Seven Years' War and American War of Independence. The French Revolution in 1789 saw the fall of the absolute monarchy that characterized the Ancien Régime and from its ashes, rose one of modern history's earliest republics, which drafted the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen. The declaration expresses the nation's ideals to this day.
Following the revolution, France reached its political and military zenith in the early 19th century under Napoleon Bonaparte, subjugating much of continental Europe and establishing the First French Empire. The French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars shaped the course of European and world history. After the collapse of the empire and a relative decline, France endured a tumultuous succession of governments culminating in the establishment of the French Third Republic in 1870 in the midst of the Franco-Prussian War. France was one of the prominent participants of World War I, from which it emerged victorious, and was one of the Allied powers in World War II, but came under occupation by the Axis in 1940. Following liberation in 1944, a Fourth Republic was established and later dissolved in the course of the Algerian War. The Fifth Republic, led by Charles de Gaulle, was formed in 1958 and remains to this day. Algeria and nearly all other French colonies became independent in the 1960s, with most retaining close economic and military connections with France.

法国是一个单一的半总统制共和国,首都在巴黎,是全国最大的城市和主要的文化和商业中心。
尽管国家富裕,但不完善的财政模式和不公平的税收制度,再加上无休止的昂贵战争,意味着到18世纪末,王国的经济状况岌岌可危。尤其是代价高昂的七年战争和美国独立战争。1789年的法国大革命见证了作为旧制度特征的绝对君主制的垮台,并从其灰烬中崛起了现代历史上最早的共和国之一,它起草了《人与公民的权利宣言》。该宣言至今仍表达着国家的理想。
革命之后,法国在拿破仑-波拿巴的领导下于19世纪初达到了政治和军事的顶峰,征服了欧洲大陆的大部分地区,建立了法兰西第一帝国。法国大革命和拿破仑战争塑造了欧洲和世界历史的进程。在帝国崩溃和相对衰落之后,法国经历了一系列动荡的政府,最终在普法战争中于1870年建立了法兰西第三共和国。法国是第一次世界大战的主要参与者之一,并取得了胜利,也是第二次世界大战的盟国之一,但在1940年被轴心国占领。1944年解放后,成立了第四共和国,后来在阿尔及利亚战争中解体。由戴高乐领导的第五共和国成立于1958年,并保持至今。阿尔及利亚和几乎所有其他法国殖民地都在1960年代独立,其中大多数与法国保持着密切的经济和军事联系。

France retains its centuries-long status as a global centre of art, science, and philosophy. It hosts the world's fifth-largest number of UNESCO World Heritage Sites and is the leading tourist destination, receiving over 89 million foreign visitors in 2018.France is a developed country with the world's seventh-largest economy by nominal GDP, and the ninth-largest by PPP. In terms of aggregate household wealth, it ranks fourth in the world.[16] France performs well in international rankings of education, health care, life expectancy, and human development. It remains a great power in global affairs, being one of the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council and an official nuclear-weapon state. France is a founding and leading member of the European unx and the Eurozone, and a member of the Group of 7, North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), the World Trade Organization (WTO), and La Francophonie.
Source:— en.m.wikipedia.org.
France architecture, culture, arts, political thinking and thoughts, individual liberty, free thinking, economy are all unique. They gave thr universe three noble ideals equality, fraternity and liberty and at the same time colonist many countries. Free souls and strong willed. Ruled the world become ruled. Uniqueness thy name is France. And it's valued by its people. Hence they differ from others.

法国作为全球艺术、科学和哲学中心的地位保持了几个世纪之久。它拥有世界上第五多的联合国教科文组织世界遗产,是主要的旅游目的地,在2018年接待了超过8900万外国游客。就家庭财富总量而言,它在世界排名第四。法国在教育、医疗保健、预期寿命和人类发展的国际排名中表现良好。它仍然是全球事务中的一个大国,是联合国安全理事会五个常任理事国之一,也是一个正式的核武器国家。法国是欧盟和欧元区的创始国和主要成员,也是七国集团、北大西洋公约组织(NATO)、经济合作与发展组织(OECD)、世界贸易组织(WTO)和法语国家组织的成员。
来源:- en.m.wikipedia.org.
法国的建筑、文化、艺术、政治思维和思想、个人自由、自由思想、经济都是独一无二的。他们给了宇宙三个崇高的理想:平等、博爱和自由,同时也是许多国家的殖民者。自由的灵魂和坚强的意志。统治了世界,成为被统治者。你的独特之处就是法国。它被它的人民所珍视。因此他们与其他国家不同。

Giovanni Panella
, former Consultant at Sogea of Genova (1987-1996)
Answered Wed
The point is that economicallt, socially and politically France is very close to the countries of Western Europe, the ones that in 1957 signed the Treaty of Rome…

问题是,在经济上、社会上和政治上,法国都非常接近其它西欧国家,即那些在1957年签署《罗马条约》的国家……

Yong Jian-Yi
, lives in Singapore

住在新加坡

Answered Wed
All the countries you listed, have an ‘English’ culture due to recent colonisation, in many cases around 200–300 years ago from Great Britain. The speak the same language, food, religious and work ethic. How many generations would it be until someone from Australia or Canada finds that their ancestral home? 5–8 generations? Probably less. Anyway, the earliest and most numerous cononist set and dictate the cultural norms of their recent countries, and that is English culture (whatever it means)
The outlier in the countries you named is Germany.

你列出的所有国家,都因为最近的殖民统治而拥有“英语”文化,在大多数情况下,这些文化大约在200-300年前来自英国。他们有着同样的语言、食物、宗教和职业道德。在一个来自澳大利亚或加拿大的人找到他们的祖籍之前,本地的会有多少代人呢?5-8代人?可能会更少。无论如何,最早和数量最多的共同主义者制定并规定了他们最近的国家的文化规范,那就是英国文化(不管它意味着什么)
你提到的国家里最离群的是德国。

Prabhachandra Rao
, lives in Bengaluru, Karnataka, India (1948-present)

住在印度卡纳塔克邦的班加罗尔(1948年至今)

Answered Wed
The query shows that you are comparing France in terms of inputs available from mainly english speaking nations. Most of the publications from these countries would not showcase France.

这个问题表明,你是在主要用来自英语国家的国家来和法国作比较。这些国家的大多数都不会展示法国的优点。

Bruce Hyland
France is not unusually different from other developed, Western countries.

法国与其他西方发达国家并没有特别的不同。

Harsh Manral
, former Former Ambassador of India to 7 Countries. (1975-2011)
Because of the Political Awareness and the Hard Working Nature of its Smart Citizens!

因为其聪明的公民的政治意识和努力工作的天性!

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