爱尔兰人和英国人的冲突可以追溯到多久以前？
正文翻译
Living in Northern Ireland and living in a area with salty old twats with bided views against the British, I’m curious as to how far back the Irish-British conflict goes
Can anyone input on this regard?
我生活在北爱尔兰，是个一直顽固反对英国的地方，我很好奇爱尔兰和英国的冲突能追溯到多久以前。大家有什么见解？
Living in Northern Ireland and living in a area with salty old twats with bided views against the British, I’m curious as to how far back the Irish-British conflict goesCan anyone input on this regard?
我生活在北爱尔兰，是个一直顽固反对英国的地方，我很好奇爱尔兰和英国的冲突能追溯到多久以前。大家有什么见解？
评论翻译
Chew_Becca_
I think ever since the Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland in 1169. Yep thats a long time back
我认为是从1169年盎格鲁-诺曼人入侵爱尔兰开始。那是很久以前了
I think ever since the Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland in 1169. Yep thats a long time back
我认为是从1169年盎格鲁-诺曼人入侵爱尔兰开始。那是很久以前了
Spank86
Further than that. There's evidence of raiding and settlement back and forth all the way back to the roman era.
比这还早。有证据表明，早在罗马时代，就有过多次突袭和定居的证据。
Further than that. There's evidence of raiding and settlement back and forth all the way back to the roman era.
比这还早。有证据表明，早在罗马时代，就有过多次突袭和定居的证据。
Torugu
That depends on whether you count those people as “English”.
这取决于你是否把这些人算作“英国人”
That depends on whether you count those people as “English”.
这取决于你是否把这些人算作“英国人”
Spank86
True, but then english wasn't part of the question as such.
确实，但那时英国还不算是个问题
True, but then english wasn't part of the question as such.
确实，但那时英国还不算是个问题
BrobdingnagLilliput
Note that the Picts and the Britons were [EDIT] generally thought not to be distinct peoples.
请注意，皮克特人【苏格兰人的先住民】和布立吞人【古代不列颠南部凯尔特人的一支】通常被认为没有区别。
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Note that the Picts and the Britons were [EDIT] generally thought not to be distinct peoples.
请注意，皮克特人【苏格兰人的先住民】和布立吞人【古代不列颠南部凯尔特人的一支】通常被认为没有区别。
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Atanar
Not nearly as distinct as they both were from subsequent invading Romans, Saxons, Danish and Normans.
与后来入侵的罗马人、撒克逊人、丹麦人和诺曼人相比，他们几乎没有区别。
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Not nearly as distinct as they both were from subsequent invading Romans, Saxons, Danish and Normans.
与后来入侵的罗马人、撒克逊人、丹麦人和诺曼人相比，他们几乎没有区别。
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serpentjaguar
There's a genetic divide roughly between the eastern "Anglo-Saxon" half of the British Isles and the western "Celtic" side that has its origins in the last glacial maximum of the ice age. The eastern side --and again, this is more of a tendency than a hard and fast rule-- has genetic origins from an ice-age refuge north of the Black Sea, whereas the western side --again, not a hard and fast rule-- has genetic origins from an ice-age refuge in the western Mediterranean. Complicating the picture are the various cultural features that have been superimposed on the two populations over the course of thousands of years --things like language and religion, etc-- but the vast majority of British and Irish people are descended from these two ancient populations and not from later invaders as was once imagined.
Anyhow, this division has always existed and it's plausible that it's been a line of conflict since prehistoric times. In any event, it's definitely the case that the two populations have a turbulent history of interactions.
不列颠群岛东部的“盎格鲁-撒克逊人” 和西部的“凯尔特人”之间存在着一定的遗传差异，后者起源于冰河时代的最后一个冰期。东部的基因起源于黑海北部的冰河期避难所，而西部的基因起源于地中海西部的冰河期避难所。复杂的是数千年来这两个民族所具有的各种文化特征——如语言和宗教等，但绝大多数不列颠人和爱尔兰人都是这两个古老民族的后裔，而不是曾经想象的后来入侵者的后裔。
无论如何，这种分裂一直存在，而且似乎从史前时代起就一直有冲突，这两个族群都有着动荡的互动历史。
There's a genetic divide roughly between the eastern "Anglo-Saxon" half of the British Isles and the western "Celtic" side that has its origins in the last glacial maximum of the ice age. The eastern side --and again, this is more of a tendency than a hard and fast rule-- has genetic origins from an ice-age refuge north of the Black Sea, whereas the western side --again, not a hard and fast rule-- has genetic origins from an ice-age refuge in the western Mediterranean. Complicating the picture are the various cultural features that have been superimposed on the two populations over the course of thousands of years --things like language and religion, etc-- but the vast majority of British and Irish people are descended from these two ancient populations and not from later invaders as was once imagined.
Anyhow, this division has always existed and it's plausible that it's been a line of conflict since prehistoric times. In any event, it's definitely the case that the two populations have a turbulent history of interactions.
不列颠群岛东部的“盎格鲁-撒克逊人” 和西部的“凯尔特人”之间存在着一定的遗传差异，后者起源于冰河时代的最后一个冰期。东部的基因起源于黑海北部的冰河期避难所，而西部的基因起源于地中海西部的冰河期避难所。复杂的是数千年来这两个民族所具有的各种文化特征——如语言和宗教等，但绝大多数不列颠人和爱尔兰人都是这两个古老民族的后裔，而不是曾经想象的后来入侵者的后裔。
无论如何，这种分裂一直存在，而且似乎从史前时代起就一直有冲突，这两个族群都有着动荡的互动历史。
[dexed]
People have mentioned the Norman invasions in the 1100's, but I think a lot of the strong sectarian animosity nowadays goes back to Cromwell's invasion of Ireland during the war of the three kingdoms, which was the first explicitly protestant attempt at eradication of Catholicism in the country.
大家已经提到11世纪诺曼人的入侵，但我认为现在强烈的宗派仇恨可以追溯到克伦威尔在三国战争中入侵爱尔兰，这是新教徒首次明确的试图消灭爱尔兰的天主教。
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People have mentioned the Norman invasions in the 1100's, but I think a lot of the strong sectarian animosity nowadays goes back to Cromwell's invasion of Ireland during the war of the three kingdoms, which was the first explicitly protestant attempt at eradication of Catholicism in the country.
大家已经提到11世纪诺曼人的入侵，但我认为现在强烈的宗派仇恨可以追溯到克伦威尔在三国战争中入侵爱尔兰，这是新教徒首次明确的试图消灭爱尔兰的天主教。
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Brickie78
There was also the Plantation of Ulster in the early 1600s by both English and Scottish settlers.
It's the reason that present-day Northern Ireland is so divided.
还有17世纪早期英格兰和苏格兰定居者开拓的阿尔斯特种植园。这也是如今北爱尔兰如此分裂的原因。
There was also the Plantation of Ulster in the early 1600s by both English and Scottish settlers.
It's the reason that present-day Northern Ireland is so divided.
还有17世纪早期英格兰和苏格兰定居者开拓的阿尔斯特种植园。这也是如今北爱尔兰如此分裂的原因。
Harsimaja
From earlier through to later.
And the Tudor invasions before that, with the Flight of the Barons Earls (I blame two Old Fashioneds for this).
And numerous laws enforced through to the 1700s to early 1800s, which oppressed Irish people in everything from food to jobs to worship to marriage to where they could live.
Cromwell indeed, and later the Battle of the Boyne.
And famines where the plantation system most Irish were trapped in did not help, one more famous than the rest, where a third of Ireland died despite supposedly being part of the richest country in the world.
And uprisings from 1798 through the Fenians to the Easter Rising... and the responses to them.
And then of course the Troubles.
So honestly not sure which of this was the ‘most’ influential, since it’s been a long chain of all of the above.
从古到今一直存在。还有都铎王朝在此之前的入侵，以及伯爵的逃亡。
从18世纪到19世纪初颁布了许多法律，在各方面压迫着爱尔兰人，从食物到工作，从宗教信仰到婚姻，再到他们可以在什么地方生活等。
确实有克伦威尔的原因，还有后来的博因河战役。
因种植园制度导致大部分爱尔兰人陷入饥荒，其中有一场最著名，有三分之一的人死于饥荒，尽管据说当时的爱尔兰是世界上最富裕国家之一。
还有从1798年的芬尼亚起义到复活节起义……以及由此而来的应对。
当然还有“北爱尔兰问题”。【北爱尔兰问题，简称北爱问题，即北爱尔兰的归属问题。经常以不同的方式被称作一场多方冲突，一场游击战，一场低烈度冲突，甚至一场内战。】
老实说，我不确定哪一个最具有影响力，因为这是一条长链条。
From earlier through to later.
And the Tudor invasions before that, with the Flight of the Barons Earls (I blame two Old Fashioneds for this).
And numerous laws enforced through to the 1700s to early 1800s, which oppressed Irish people in everything from food to jobs to worship to marriage to where they could live.
Cromwell indeed, and later the Battle of the Boyne.
And famines where the plantation system most Irish were trapped in did not help, one more famous than the rest, where a third of Ireland died despite supposedly being part of the richest country in the world.
And uprisings from 1798 through the Fenians to the Easter Rising... and the responses to them.
And then of course the Troubles.
So honestly not sure which of this was the ‘most’ influential, since it’s been a long chain of all of the above.
从古到今一直存在。还有都铎王朝在此之前的入侵，以及伯爵的逃亡。
从18世纪到19世纪初颁布了许多法律，在各方面压迫着爱尔兰人，从食物到工作，从宗教信仰到婚姻，再到他们可以在什么地方生活等。
确实有克伦威尔的原因，还有后来的博因河战役。
因种植园制度导致大部分爱尔兰人陷入饥荒，其中有一场最著名，有三分之一的人死于饥荒，尽管据说当时的爱尔兰是世界上最富裕国家之一。
还有从1798年的芬尼亚起义到复活节起义……以及由此而来的应对。
当然还有“北爱尔兰问题”。【北爱尔兰问题，简称北爱问题，即北爱尔兰的归属问题。经常以不同的方式被称作一场多方冲突，一场游击战，一场低烈度冲突，甚至一场内战。】
老实说，我不确定哪一个最具有影响力，因为这是一条长链条。
purpleovskoff
Imagine a wealthy country being unable/willing to extend their wealth to their poor. Good job we've learnt from history
想象一下，一个富裕的国家无法或不愿意把他们的财富分给穷人。我们从历史中看到了很多次这种情况。
Imagine a wealthy country being unable/willing to extend their wealth to their poor. Good job we've learnt from history
想象一下，一个富裕的国家无法或不愿意把他们的财富分给穷人。我们从历史中看到了很多次这种情况。
EmperorsCourt
thats because the wealthy nation forced the poorer one to continue to export its food products. Ireland produced more than enough food locally to feed themselves, even with the Blight, had their British overlords allowed them to keep it. Instead, Irish exports of food to Britain were at record highs during the Famine. Its why many scholars (and a lot of the Irish population) today see what happened as a forced genocide rather than a tragic famine.
this had nothing to extending wealth or any other such nonsense.
这是因为富国强迫穷国继续出口其食品。爱尔兰本地生产的粮食足以养活自己，只要他们的英国领主允许粮食留在当地，哪怕有天灾也没问题。然而相反，爱尔兰对英国的食品出口在饥荒期间创下历史新高。这就是如今许多学者(和许多爱尔兰人) 把这些事情看作是一场种族灭绝，而不是一场悲惨饥荒的原因。
thats because the wealthy nation forced the poorer one to continue to export its food products. Ireland produced more than enough food locally to feed themselves, even with the Blight, had their British overlords allowed them to keep it. Instead, Irish exports of food to Britain were at record highs during the Famine. Its why many scholars (and a lot of the Irish population) today see what happened as a forced genocide rather than a tragic famine.
this had nothing to extending wealth or any other such nonsense.
这是因为富国强迫穷国继续出口其食品。爱尔兰本地生产的粮食足以养活自己，只要他们的英国领主允许粮食留在当地，哪怕有天灾也没问题。然而相反，爱尔兰对英国的食品出口在饥荒期间创下历史新高。这就是如今许多学者(和许多爱尔兰人) 把这些事情看作是一场种族灭绝，而不是一场悲惨饥荒的原因。
[dexed]
Not always easy or nuanced to perceive English attitudes to Ireland and its people. As a blanket view, the Irish people were viewed as the lowest of life forms. One historical example is that when the West Indies sugar plantations started up, the English who were without a black slaved labour force - used the Irish. The English made up excuses, criminalised Irish nationals and turned them into slaves to be treated incredibly harshly on the newly formed sugar plantations. The death rate was quite high.
Just because you were a Parliamentarian didn't make you safe from the English either viewing you as an existential threat. Here's a few pics about an Irish Parliamentarian - questions arise about taking on the Establishment, fighting central rule. There's no surprise you get treated like a criminal or made to be one.
Edit. For those not aware, Irish prisoners in Australia were political prisoners. And like political prisoners they were considered a threat to the State. The English authorities instructed Prison Governors for the harshest treatment of "Irish State Prisoners except where they thought those Prisoners could be won over.
要理解英国人对爱尔兰及其人民的态度并不那么容易。总的来说，爱尔兰人被认为是最低等的生命形式。举个历史上的例子，当西印度群岛的甘蔗种植园开始时，没有黑人奴隶作为劳动力的英国人……他们用爱尔兰人。英国人编造借口，将爱尔兰国民定为罪犯，把他们变成奴隶，在新建的甘蔗种植园里受到难以置信的严厉对待。他们的死亡率相当高。
就算你是一名国会议员，也不能让你免受英国人的伤害，照样将你视为生存威胁。这里有几张关于一位爱尔兰议员的照片【链接】——是关于挑战建制，对抗中央统治的问题。毫不奇怪，你会被当作罪犯一样来对待，或者就是罪犯。
给那些不知道的人解释一下，在澳大利亚的爱尔兰囚犯是政治犯。像政治犯一样，他们被认为是对国家的威胁。英国当局指示监狱长，要对“爱尔兰囚犯”以最严厉的对待，除非他们认为这些囚犯可以被争取。
Not always easy or nuanced to perceive English attitudes to Ireland and its people. As a blanket view, the Irish people were viewed as the lowest of life forms. One historical example is that when the West Indies sugar plantations started up, the English who were without a black slaved labour force - used the Irish. The English made up excuses, criminalised Irish nationals and turned them into slaves to be treated incredibly harshly on the newly formed sugar plantations. The death rate was quite high.
Just because you were a Parliamentarian didn't make you safe from the English either viewing you as an existential threat. Here's a few pics about an Irish Parliamentarian - questions arise about taking on the Establishment, fighting central rule. There's no surprise you get treated like a criminal or made to be one.
Edit. For those not aware, Irish prisoners in Australia were political prisoners. And like political prisoners they were considered a threat to the State. The English authorities instructed Prison Governors for the harshest treatment of "Irish State Prisoners except where they thought those Prisoners could be won over.
要理解英国人对爱尔兰及其人民的态度并不那么容易。总的来说，爱尔兰人被认为是最低等的生命形式。举个历史上的例子，当西印度群岛的甘蔗种植园开始时，没有黑人奴隶作为劳动力的英国人……他们用爱尔兰人。英国人编造借口，将爱尔兰国民定为罪犯，把他们变成奴隶，在新建的甘蔗种植园里受到难以置信的严厉对待。他们的死亡率相当高。
就算你是一名国会议员，也不能让你免受英国人的伤害，照样将你视为生存威胁。这里有几张关于一位爱尔兰议员的照片【链接】——是关于挑战建制，对抗中央统治的问题。毫不奇怪，你会被当作罪犯一样来对待，或者就是罪犯。
给那些不知道的人解释一下，在澳大利亚的爱尔兰囚犯是政治犯。像政治犯一样，他们被认为是对国家的威胁。英国当局指示监狱长，要对“爱尔兰囚犯”以最严厉的对待，除非他们认为这些囚犯可以被争取。
[dexed]
That was clearly the obvious tension. The Norman thing was unrelated to religion of course.
那显然是冲突。诺曼人的事与宗教无关。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
That was clearly the obvious tension. The Norman thing was unrelated to religion of course.
那显然是冲突。诺曼人的事与宗教无关。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
beeds
Plus I’m not so sure it’s right to call the Normans ‘British’.
另外，把诺曼人称为“英国人”，我不太确定是否正确。
Plus I’m not so sure it’s right to call the Normans ‘British’.
另外，把诺曼人称为“英国人”，我不太确定是否正确。
TheCooksCook
True. We were taught in school that the Normans became ‘more Irish than the Irish themselves’ by speaking Irish adopting Irish customs and dress and inter marrying with native Irish. Don’t know if they still teach that, it was the 80’s
我们在学校里学到，诺曼人说爱尔兰语、采用爱尔兰习俗和服饰、并与本地爱尔兰人通婚，使得他们变得“比爱尔兰人更像爱尔兰人”。不知道学校里是否还在这么教，那是80年代。
True. We were taught in school that the Normans became ‘more Irish than the Irish themselves’ by speaking Irish adopting Irish customs and dress and inter marrying with native Irish. Don’t know if they still teach that, it was the 80’s
我们在学校里学到，诺曼人说爱尔兰语、采用爱尔兰习俗和服饰、并与本地爱尔兰人通婚，使得他们变得“比爱尔兰人更像爱尔兰人”。不知道学校里是否还在这么教，那是80年代。
mrgonzalez
It was the same network of Norman elites that took over as the ruling class of England not long before. It has some relevance just because it sets up some of the behaviour of English royalty later on.
不久前，诺曼精英们成为了英格兰的统治阶级。他们确立了后来英国皇室的一些行为。
It was the same network of Norman elites that took over as the ruling class of England not long before. It has some relevance just because it sets up some of the behaviour of English royalty later on.
不久前，诺曼精英们成为了英格兰的统治阶级。他们确立了后来英国皇室的一些行为。
[dexed]
Even through they spoke French?
哪怕他们说法语？
Even through they spoke French?
哪怕他们说法语？
Coomb
English isn't a language that's native to Great Britain either.
英语也不是不列颠的本土语言。
English isn't a language that's native to Great Britain either.
英语也不是不列颠的本土语言。
FollowTheLaser
I mean, it is, though. It developed in England - from other languages from elsewhere, sure, but developed in England nonetheless.
我认为英语是本土语言。它是在英格兰发展起来的，尽管是从其他地方的其他语言发展而来，但不管怎样，它仍然是在英格兰发展起来的。
I mean, it is, though. It developed in England - from other languages from elsewhere, sure, but developed in England nonetheless.
我认为英语是本土语言。它是在英格兰发展起来的，尽管是从其他地方的其他语言发展而来，但不管怎样，它仍然是在英格兰发展起来的。
Coomb
What, you think Old Norman French didn't develop over its centuries in England? It did. That's why the language that it developed into is called Anglo-Norman. And it substantially influenced English.
It's interesting to privilege the language of one group of Invaders over another just because one of those groups happened to be more successful at displacing and destroying local culture.
怎么，你认为几个世纪来古诺曼法语在英格兰没有发展吗。它有。这就是它发展成为盎格鲁-诺曼语的原因。它对英语产生了重大影响。
有意思的是，一群入侵者的语言之所以优于另一群入侵者的语言，因为前者更成功地取代和摧毁了当地文化。
What, you think Old Norman French didn't develop over its centuries in England? It did. That's why the language that it developed into is called Anglo-Norman. And it substantially influenced English.
It's interesting to privilege the language of one group of Invaders over another just because one of those groups happened to be more successful at displacing and destroying local culture.
怎么，你认为几个世纪来古诺曼法语在英格兰没有发展吗。它有。这就是它发展成为盎格鲁-诺曼语的原因。它对英语产生了重大影响。
有意思的是，一群入侵者的语言之所以优于另一群入侵者的语言，因为前者更成功地取代和摧毁了当地文化。
FollowTheLaser
You're missing my point. Anglo-norman would be a native British language because it developed in Britain. Old Norman French would not be, because it developed in France.
你没理解我的意思。盎格鲁-诺曼语是英国本土语言，因为它是在英国发展起来的。古诺曼法语不是，因为它是在法国发展起来的。
You're missing my point. Anglo-norman would be a native British language because it developed in Britain. Old Norman French would not be, because it developed in France.
你没理解我的意思。盎格鲁-诺曼语是英国本土语言，因为它是在英国发展起来的。古诺曼法语不是，因为它是在法国发展起来的。
brycly
29% of all English words are of French origin, and another 29% are of Latin origin. Norman French and Old English merged into one language. In fact, more English words are derived from French than the original Germanic language, which is the origin of only 26% of all English words.
29%的英语单词来源于法语，另有29%来源于拉丁语。诺曼法语和古英语融合为一。事实上，来自法语的英语单词比来自原始日耳曼语的单词要多，日耳曼语只占英语单词的26%。
29% of all English words are of French origin, and another 29% are of Latin origin. Norman French and Old English merged into one language. In fact, more English words are derived from French than the original Germanic language, which is the origin of only 26% of all English words.
29%的英语单词来源于法语，另有29%来源于拉丁语。诺曼法语和古英语融合为一。事实上，来自法语的英语单词比来自原始日耳曼语的单词要多，日耳曼语只占英语单词的26%。
FollowTheLaser
I'm not denying that English is made of words from other places. I'm saying it's native to the British Isles because that's where those languages came together and developed into English.
我不否认英语由其他地方的单词组成。我说它起源于不列颠群岛，是因为这些语言在当地融合然后发展成为英语。
I'm not denying that English is made of words from other places. I'm saying it's native to the British Isles because that's where those languages came together and developed into English.
我不否认英语由其他地方的单词组成。我说它起源于不列颠群岛，是因为这些语言在当地融合然后发展成为英语。
Regan-Spor
Well then the answer is when were the British first called British? I believe you can just take it from the Act of unx 1707. Which Ireland was made to join in 1801. You could probably say the when the Act was pass that's when the people of Scotland Wales and England could be first referred to as British.
那么问题来了，英国人什么时候开始被叫做英国人？我相信你可以从1707年的《联合法案》中得到答案，其中爱尔兰是在1801年加入的。也许能认为，当该法案通过时，苏格兰、威尔士和英格兰的人民第一次被称为英国人。
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Well then the answer is when were the British first called British? I believe you can just take it from the Act of unx 1707. Which Ireland was made to join in 1801. You could probably say the when the Act was pass that's when the people of Scotland Wales and England could be first referred to as British.
那么问题来了，英国人什么时候开始被叫做英国人？我相信你可以从1707年的《联合法案》中得到答案，其中爱尔兰是在1801年加入的。也许能认为，当该法案通过时，苏格兰、威尔士和英格兰的人民第一次被称为英国人。
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ajaxfetish
The British were first called British during the Roman era. Then, over the centuries, successive waves of immigrants moved in and merged with prior inhabitants, becoming British as well. For later groups, you'd have to specify which one you mean to determine when they became British.
在罗马时代，英国人就首次被称为英国人了。随后的几个世纪，移民浪潮不断涌入，与先前的居民融合，也成为了英国人。对于后来的群体，当他们成为英国人后，你必须明确指定你要说的是哪个群体。
The British were first called British during the Roman era. Then, over the centuries, successive waves of immigrants moved in and merged with prior inhabitants, becoming British as well. For later groups, you'd have to specify which one you mean to determine when they became British.
在罗马时代，英国人就首次被称为英国人了。随后的几个世纪，移民浪潮不断涌入，与先前的居民融合，也成为了英国人。对于后来的群体，当他们成为英国人后，你必须明确指定你要说的是哪个群体。
lsspam
I’d place this as the starting point. The Norman invasion of Ireland waned over time and resulted in a much Norman integration into Ireland as we see in, say, Wales or England itself.
The character of the English/Irish conflict is religious and colonial in nature, and so seems specifically tied to the plantation system which brought foreign Protestants to a specific region (now primarily Northern Ireland).
以17世纪为起始点。随着时间的推移，诺曼人对爱尔兰的入侵逐渐减弱，导致诺曼人融入爱尔兰，就像我们在威尔士或英格兰看到的那样。
英国和爱尔兰的冲突特点带有宗教和殖民性质，因此似乎与种植园制度有关，这种制度将外国新教徒带到特定地区（主要是北爱尔兰）。
I’d place this as the starting point. The Norman invasion of Ireland waned over time and resulted in a much Norman integration into Ireland as we see in, say, Wales or England itself.
The character of the English/Irish conflict is religious and colonial in nature, and so seems specifically tied to the plantation system which brought foreign Protestants to a specific region (now primarily Northern Ireland).
以17世纪为起始点。随着时间的推移，诺曼人对爱尔兰的入侵逐渐减弱，导致诺曼人融入爱尔兰，就像我们在威尔士或英格兰看到的那样。
英国和爱尔兰的冲突特点带有宗教和殖民性质，因此似乎与种植园制度有关，这种制度将外国新教徒带到特定地区（主要是北爱尔兰）。
Regan-Spor
I think you're right. After Cromwell. I thought it was interesting that the Irish supported the Royalist instead of the parliamentarians. It flies in the face of the idea that the Irish wanted to have nothing to do with the English monarchy.
But the sectarianism in northern Ireland is from 1795-1798. Where Belfast went from a United Irishman stronghold to a Loyalist stronghold. And it was the crown forces the sowed the seeds of division. Making the various protestant factions unite for fear of Roman rule.
我认为克伦威尔之后的说法是正确的。有趣的是，爱尔兰人竟然支持保皇党而不支持议员。这与爱尔兰人不想与英国君主制有瓜葛的理念背道而驰。
但北爱尔兰的宗派主义形成于1795-1798年间。当时贝尔法斯特从爱尔兰联合军的据点变成了保皇党的据点。正是王权势力播下了分裂的种子。由于害怕罗马的统治，新教各派联合了起来。
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I think you're right. After Cromwell. I thought it was interesting that the Irish supported the Royalist instead of the parliamentarians. It flies in the face of the idea that the Irish wanted to have nothing to do with the English monarchy.
But the sectarianism in northern Ireland is from 1795-1798. Where Belfast went from a United Irishman stronghold to a Loyalist stronghold. And it was the crown forces the sowed the seeds of division. Making the various protestant factions unite for fear of Roman rule.
我认为克伦威尔之后的说法是正确的。有趣的是，爱尔兰人竟然支持保皇党而不支持议员。这与爱尔兰人不想与英国君主制有瓜葛的理念背道而驰。
但北爱尔兰的宗派主义形成于1795-1798年间。当时贝尔法斯特从爱尔兰联合军的据点变成了保皇党的据点。正是王权势力播下了分裂的种子。由于害怕罗马的统治，新教各派联合了起来。
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AlanFromRochester
And Cromwell's campaign in Ireland was considered brutal even by many at the time, not just a case of judging the past by present standards
克伦威尔征服爱尔兰在当时被许多人认为是残酷的，就算不以现在的标准也是如此。
And Cromwell's campaign in Ireland was considered brutal even by many at the time, not just a case of judging the past by present standards
克伦威尔征服爱尔兰在当时被许多人认为是残酷的，就算不以现在的标准也是如此。
einarfridgeirs
The sectarian animosity goes back before Cromwell. The Irish rebelled because both Charles II and James had worked super hard to squeeze Ireland for all it was worth monetarily and marginalize Catholics(both Gaelic speakers and the "Old English" who had been the invaders pre-Reformation) in all positions of power.
Ironically the rebellion and how Cromwell et.al reacted to it pushed many Old English to side with their co-religionists rather than their more recently arrived linguistic brethren and thus they became "Irish" in the modern sense of the word.
宗派仇恨可以追溯到克伦威尔之前。由于查理二世和詹姆斯竭尽全力榨取爱尔兰的财富，并将天主教徒排斥出权力圈，导致爱尔兰人叛乱。
讽刺的是，叛乱和克伦威尔等人对此的应对，迫使许多古英国人站在他们的同教一边，而不是站在说同样语言的兄弟一边。因此他们成为了现代意义上的“爱尔兰人”。
The sectarian animosity goes back before Cromwell. The Irish rebelled because both Charles II and James had worked super hard to squeeze Ireland for all it was worth monetarily and marginalize Catholics(both Gaelic speakers and the "Old English" who had been the invaders pre-Reformation) in all positions of power.
Ironically the rebellion and how Cromwell et.al reacted to it pushed many Old English to side with their co-religionists rather than their more recently arrived linguistic brethren and thus they became "Irish" in the modern sense of the word.
宗派仇恨可以追溯到克伦威尔之前。由于查理二世和詹姆斯竭尽全力榨取爱尔兰的财富，并将天主教徒排斥出权力圈，导致爱尔兰人叛乱。
讽刺的是，叛乱和克伦威尔等人对此的应对，迫使许多古英国人站在他们的同教一边，而不是站在说同样语言的兄弟一边。因此他们成为了现代意义上的“爱尔兰人”。
drcubes90
Took Irish history in college, Cromwell and what the Britiah did under him was evil, have also read the Irish famine of the 1800s was intentionally orchestrated by the British to decrease the population and make them easier to control.
我在大学里学过爱尔兰历史，克伦威尔和他的手下的所为很邪恶，还读到19世纪爱尔兰的饥荒是英国人故意策划的，目的是减少人口，让他们更容易被控制。
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Took Irish history in college, Cromwell and what the Britiah did under him was evil, have also read the Irish famine of the 1800s was intentionally orchestrated by the British to decrease the population and make them easier to control.
我在大学里学过爱尔兰历史，克伦威尔和他的手下的所为很邪恶，还读到19世纪爱尔兰的饥荒是英国人故意策划的，目的是减少人口，让他们更容易被控制。
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BestFriendWatermelon
It wasn't orchestrated by the British to decrease the population of Ireland.
The thing to understand is that there had been crop failures and blights in Ireland before 'the' Great Famine. The British government had on those occasions moved swiftly to close Irish ports to prevent the export of food from Ireland and transfer foodstuffs into Ireland to make up for shortfalls.
But during the Great Famine, the British government in power at the time was obsessed with free market capitalism. Merchants lobbied furiously against closing the Irish ports, and against repealing the corn laws which artificially inflated the price of bread. The government was convinced the free market would solve the crisis.
The British didn't cause the famine, nor intentionally orchestrate it. The Irish have every right to be bitter over what the British did and didn't do, without having to exaggerate British intentions.
这不是策划的，也不是为了减少爱尔兰人口。
要了解的是，在“大饥荒”之前，爱尔兰就曾出现过农作物歉收和枯萎病。这种情况下，英国政府迅速采取行动，关闭爱尔兰港口，防止从爱尔兰出口食品，还将食物运送到爱尔兰以弥补短缺。
但在大饥荒期间，当时掌权的英国政府沉迷于自由市场资本主义。商人们激烈地游说，反对关闭爱尔兰港口，反对废除人为抬高面包价格的谷物法。而政府相信自由市场会解决危机。
饥荒不是英国人造成的，也没有故意策划饥荒。爱尔兰人完全有权对英国人的所作所为表示不满，但不应夸大英国人的意图。
It wasn't orchestrated by the British to decrease the population of Ireland.
The thing to understand is that there had been crop failures and blights in Ireland before 'the' Great Famine. The British government had on those occasions moved swiftly to close Irish ports to prevent the export of food from Ireland and transfer foodstuffs into Ireland to make up for shortfalls.
But during the Great Famine, the British government in power at the time was obsessed with free market capitalism. Merchants lobbied furiously against closing the Irish ports, and against repealing the corn laws which artificially inflated the price of bread. The government was convinced the free market would solve the crisis.
The British didn't cause the famine, nor intentionally orchestrate it. The Irish have every right to be bitter over what the British did and didn't do, without having to exaggerate British intentions.
这不是策划的，也不是为了减少爱尔兰人口。
要了解的是，在“大饥荒”之前，爱尔兰就曾出现过农作物歉收和枯萎病。这种情况下，英国政府迅速采取行动，关闭爱尔兰港口，防止从爱尔兰出口食品，还将食物运送到爱尔兰以弥补短缺。
但在大饥荒期间，当时掌权的英国政府沉迷于自由市场资本主义。商人们激烈地游说，反对关闭爱尔兰港口，反对废除人为抬高面包价格的谷物法。而政府相信自由市场会解决危机。
饥荒不是英国人造成的，也没有故意策划饥荒。爱尔兰人完全有权对英国人的所作所为表示不满，但不应夸大英国人的意图。
opilino
That is correct but you are not taking account of the British reaction to it. This famine was also in Europe where it did not last anything as long because the reaction was different. The Irish were left to starve and it was largely viewed by landlords and the ruling class in Britain as natural and even Gods judgement, as well as bring a useful means to clear the lands.
That is what people are referring to when they say it was orchestrated.
是这样，但你没有考虑到英国人对此的反应。这场饥荒在欧洲也发生了，但由于应对不同，欧洲的饥荒没有英国的持续那么久。爱尔兰人被饿死，而英国的地主和统治阶级认为这是自然的，甚至认为是上帝的审判，是清理土地的有效手段。
大家之所以说这是精心策划的，指的就是这个。
That is correct but you are not taking account of the British reaction to it. This famine was also in Europe where it did not last anything as long because the reaction was different. The Irish were left to starve and it was largely viewed by landlords and the ruling class in Britain as natural and even Gods judgement, as well as bring a useful means to clear the lands.
That is what people are referring to when they say it was orchestrated.
是这样，但你没有考虑到英国人对此的反应。这场饥荒在欧洲也发生了，但由于应对不同，欧洲的饥荒没有英国的持续那么久。爱尔兰人被饿死，而英国的地主和统治阶级认为这是自然的，甚至认为是上帝的审判，是清理土地的有效手段。
大家之所以说这是精心策划的，指的就是这个。
ZackHBorg
Still, if it hadn't been the fact that most of the sufferers were "dirty Irish Catholics", they might have been quicker to bend their adherence to free market principals.
然而，要不是大多数受害者都是“肮脏的爱尔兰天主教徒”，英国人可能会更快地放弃对自由市场原则的坚持。
Still, if it hadn't been the fact that most of the sufferers were "dirty Irish Catholics", they might have been quicker to bend their adherence to free market principals.
然而，要不是大多数受害者都是“肮脏的爱尔兰天主教徒”，英国人可能会更快地放弃对自由市场原则的坚持。
Chapelirl
I'm not sure it was an invasion. The Normans that came were a mercenary force invited and paid for by the King of Leinster, and they were French in any case (though they lived in Britain)
我认为1169年那次不是入侵。来的诺曼人是受伦斯特国王邀请，是花钱雇来的雇佣军，不过怎么说他们都是法国人(尽管他们生活在英国)
I'm not sure it was an invasion. The Normans that came were a mercenary force invited and paid for by the King of Leinster, and they were French in any case (though they lived in Britain)
我认为1169年那次不是入侵。来的诺曼人是受伦斯特国王邀请，是花钱雇来的雇佣军，不过怎么说他们都是法国人(尽管他们生活在英国)
VoultBioy
The Irish and Britons (Romans aswell) had conflict. Then theres some smaller scale Irish/Gaelic and Anglo-Saxon conflict aswell, depends really on what you count as the British. The Irish and the Island of Great Britain have always fought one way or another.
爱尔兰人和英国人（和罗马人）有冲突。然后还有一些较小规模的爱尔兰和盎格鲁-撒克逊冲突，这取决于你认为什么是英国人。爱尔兰人和大不列颠岛一直在以这样或那样的方式打仗。
The Irish and Britons (Romans aswell) had conflict. Then theres some smaller scale Irish/Gaelic and Anglo-Saxon conflict aswell, depends really on what you count as the British. The Irish and the Island of Great Britain have always fought one way or another.
爱尔兰人和英国人（和罗马人）有冲突。然后还有一些较小规模的爱尔兰和盎格鲁-撒克逊冲突，这取决于你认为什么是英国人。爱尔兰人和大不列颠岛一直在以这样或那样的方式打仗。
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