对数百个家庭的研究发现,养父母对被收养者成年后的智商基本上没有影响
2021-09-15 骑着毛驴到处走 18481
正文翻译
atridir
I know that epigenetic changes are affected by environmental factors so to me it stands to reason that slight epigenetic variations during development from the fetal stage all the way through adolescence would play a part in determining how one’s mind works.

我知道表观遗传变化会受到环境因素的影响,所以在我看来,从胎儿期到青春期的发育过程中,微小的表观遗传变化将在决定一个人的思维智力方面发挥作用。

评论翻译
throwaway901617
Yeah I'm wondering this too.
Study says adoptive parents have no impact on intelligence, but also find 58% impact comes from "other factors" which someone else said is environmental impact ie epigenetic expression.
So then, is it actually reasonable to say adoptive parents have "no" impact when they have a major effect on the environment (physical, social, emotional) in which the child is raised for a significant portion of its life?

我也在想这个问题。
研究表明,养父母对收养者的智力没有影响,但也发现有58%的影响来自“其他因素”,有人说是环境影响,即表观遗传表达。
那么,当养父母对收养者的(身体、社交、情感)产生重大影响时,说他们“没有”对被收养者的智商产生影响真的合理吗?孩子成长的大部分时间都是在养父母创造的环境中度过的。

Tysseract
I think it means the impact of the adoptive parents' IQ specifically, and not the adoptive parents' care, attention, income, assets, location, choice of school, etc.

我认为这具体是指养父母智商的影响,而不是养父母的关心、关注、收入、资产、家庭地点、学校选择等

yoyoma333
Which is interesting because one would imagine/assume that (and we certainly have some data to back up that they’re much more likely to) two genius level IQ adoptive parents are taking their kids to museums, investing in their education, reading tons, hiring tutors, giving their babies long chain fatty acids.
Does it matter? Meh. If I adopted a kid I would care so much more that they felt loved and supported, and would still give them every opportunity to succeed.

这很有趣,因为人们会假设两个拥有天才级智商的养父母,带他们的养子去博物馆,在教育上大量投资,从小做大量阅读训练,招聘家庭教师,给宝宝吃含长链脂肪酸的食物。
如果我收养了一个孩子,我会更加关心他们,让他们感受到爱和支持,并且会给他们一切取得成功的机会。这些对养子的智商有影响吗?

reallylovesguacamole
If you read about “feral children,” or children who were severely isolated during critical years of development due to neglect/abuse, you’ll see that environment and nurture is incredibly important to human development. In fact, it seems that children who miss out on proper interaction and engagement during this period (seems to be infancy - 5, sometimes earlier/later) suffer from emotional issues.

如果你读过《野孩子》,或者是那些在成长的关键时期由于忽视/虐待而被严重孤立的儿童的研究报告,你就会发现环境和教养对人的发展非常重要。事实上,在这一时期(婴儿期到5岁时,也可能更早或更晚)缺乏参与适当家庭/社会互动的孩子,会出现情感方面的问题。

ttk12acd
I feel like it have more to do with personality of the parents. I know very smart people who are aloof and less hands on with parenting. Being a genius does not necessarily make a person a good parent.

我觉得智商和父母的性格有很大关系。我认识一些非常聪明的人,他们很冷漠,不怎么关心孩子的养育。成为一个天才并不一定能成为一个好父母。
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hagy
Here are some details from Wikipedia summarizing how the science is well established that there is a high heritability of IQ, even when removing all environmental impacts. This has been investigated for over a half a century and the results are quite robust.
IQ goes from being weakly correlated with genetics for children, to being strongly correlated with genetics for late teens and adults. The heritability of IQ increases with age and reaches an asymptote at 18–20 years of age and continues at that level well into adulthood.

以下是来自维基百科的一些细节,总结了科学是如何证实智商具有高遗传性的。对此已经进行了半个多世纪的研究,结果相当可靠。
对于儿童来说,智商与基因的相关性很弱,而对于青少年和成年人来说,智商则与基因的相关性很强。智商的遗传性随着年龄的增长而增加,在18-20岁时达到渐近线,并在成年期一直保持这个水平。

LordBlimblah
Why is this controversial?

为什么关于智商遗传的争议一直不休?

jeegte12
It means that we might not be as in control of our children's future, or anything. It also means that intelligence differences will arise between population groups, regardless of the culture and environment that surrounds them. That's the big one that people absolutely will not accept, despite how small and inconsequential the differences actually are.

研究结果意味着我们可能无法控制我们孩子的未来。这也意味着,无论周围的文化和环境如何,不同人群之间的智力差异都会存在。这是人们绝对不会接受的事实,尽管这点智力差异实际上是多么的微小和无关紧要。

bcuap10
Here is the problem with those studies that can overstate the role of genetics.
Essentially, kids with more genetic aptitude early on get positive reinforcement that encourages them to continue practicing and pursuing activities that further developing their IQ.
Basically, the analogy is that if you are tall or athletic, then you will excel at basketball as a young kid compared to the kid who isn’t naturally as gifted. You will probably get the better coaching and be more motivated to practice and continue playing, and in the long run this practice and training turns you into an elite basketball player, not the genetics. The initial genetic aptitude just gave you the push needed to pursue the training.
In academics, if you show more aptitude early on, then you are more likely to like reading or will get more positive reinforcement in school.
For example, Lionel Messi, he was extremely gifted as a kid, which gave him the opportunity to play for Barcelona’s youth program and get the best training in the world. If he never got that training and grew up in a remote village in Mozambique, then he would be a nobody.So, the genetic aptitude is highly correlated with environmental factors.

这些研究的问题在于,它们可能夸大了基因的作用。
从本质上讲,拥有遗传天赋的孩子会得到积极的强化,鼓励他们继续练习和从事提高天赋的活动。
比如说,如果你个子高,或者运动能力强,那么你在小时候就会在篮球方面胜过那些没有天赋的孩子。你可能会得到更好的指导,更有动力去练习打球,从长远来看,这种练习和训练会让你成为一名优秀的篮球运动员,最初的遗传天赋给了你继续训练的动力。
在学术上,如果你在小时候拥有天赋,那么你有可能喜欢阅读,在学校里得到更多的正面强化。
例如,莱昂内尔·梅西,他在孩提时代就极具天赋,这给了他为巴塞罗那青年队踢球的机会,并得到了世界上最好的训练。如果他从小在莫桑比克的一个偏远村庄长大,没有接受任何训练,那么他将是一个无名小卒。因此,遗传能力与环境因素高度相关。

_MASTADONG_
I disagree with your basketball analogy. It is nearly impossible to be an elite player without being tall. No amount of coaching can make you into a tall person. Look up the average height in the NBA, and then tell me how an average height person can compete in that league.

我不同意你的篮球类比。要成为一名优秀的球员几乎不可能个子矮。再多的训练也不能让你变成一个高大的人。看看NBA的平均身高,然后告诉我一个平均身高的人如何在篮球联盟中竞争。

bcuap10
The point wasn’t that genetics don’t matter, but how genetics interact and cofound with nurture principles.
Obviously, height, strength, hand eye coordination, speed, etc are all critical to being a good basketball player, and the likelihood of becoming an NBA player at 6’9”is exponentially higher than becoming an NBA player at 5’9”.
However great of advantage being tall is, I guarantee you there are many 5’9” people who, through lots of practice, are much better players than many 6’9” people (who aren’t in the NBA) who don’t like basketball enough to play and practice regularly.
But, overall the average 6’9” person is better at basketball both because of a genetic advantage and because amongst the 6’9” population, a greater percentage than the 5’9” play basketball seriously.
The NBA analogy is a bit misleading, since the NBA is filled with the best of the best. To be amongst the best of the best in a field as competitive as pro sports you have to be both genetically on the tail end of the distribution and you must have put in a lot of training.
Likewise, kids that excel early in school because of genetic predisposition find intellectually challenging things more interesting, are pushed by teachers into more advanced material, and so on.

重点并不是遗传不重要,而是遗传如何与后天培养相互作用,共同塑造天才。
显然,身高、力量、手眼协调能力、速度等都是成为一名优秀篮球运动员的关键要素,6英尺9英寸的身高成为一名NBA球员的可能性,要比5英尺9英寸的身高成为一名NBA球员的可能性高得多。
无论身高的优势有多大,我敢保证,通过大量的训练,有很多5英尺9英寸的人,比许多6英尺9英寸的人(非NBA球员)更优秀。
但是总体来说,平均身高6英尺9英寸的人更擅长打篮球,一方面是基因优势,另一方面是6英尺9英寸人群中认真打球的比例,要比5英尺9英寸的人群高。
NBA这个类比有点误导人,因为NBA运动员是精英中的精英。要想在像职业运动这样竞争激烈的领域中成为佼佼者,你必须首先在基因上处于顶点,而且你必须投入大量的训练。
同样地,在学校时期表现优异的孩子,因为遗传倾向,会更喜欢挑战高智力难题,因此也会被老师当作尖子生培养。

NellucEcon
“other factors" which someone else said is environmental impact ie epigenetic expression.”
Environmental impact can include lots of their things. For example, your mother got sick at a key stage of pregnancy, and not enough of your neural progenitors migrated to the correct spot.
If you are like virtually anybody else, there is some asymmetry in your body — a higher left ear, a slightly longer left leg, etc. these represent defects in the development process due to luck. Humans are pretty robust, which is why virtually all of us have these defects and are fine.

"其他因素"也就是有人说的环境影响,即表观遗传表达。
环境影响可以包括很多东西。例如,你的母亲在怀孕的关键阶段生病了,你的神经祖细胞没有迁移到正确的位置。
又或者你和其他人没什么大差别,只是身体有些不对称——左耳更高,左腿稍长等等,这些都是由于外界因素导致发育过程中出现的小缺陷。人类是相当强壮的,这就是为什么我们几乎所有人都拥有这些缺陷,却仍然可以正常生活。

dsaxton08
As someone that does epigenetics research, my sense is that you might be right but we are nowhere close to having the evidence of it. Ascribing complex traits like intelligence to changes in gene regulation in a complex organism is really difficult. Even just making connections between intelligence and genetic makeup, which should be much easier, has been really hard for researchers.

作为一个做表观遗传学研究的人,我认为你可能是对的,但我们离掌握充分证据还差得很远。在一个复杂的有机体中,把智力这样的复杂特征归因于基因变化是非常困难的。即使只是简单找出智力和基因的对应关系,对研究人员来说也非常困难。

shillyshally
When I was in HS and college in the 60s, DNA was considered inviolate.I swear, most of what I learned 50 years has been shown to not be true. What until you guys live another 50 or 60 years - I cannot even imagine what new things will be on the horizon for you!
Also, here is an interesting bit you might not know. I was common in my grandmother's time to believe that things that happened to the mother could affect the baby. So when my grandfather put my pregnant grandmother in the hospital by smashing an iron into her head, her primary concern was that my mother would be born with a bashed in head.

60年代我在高中和大学的时候,DNA相关的理论被认为是神圣不可推翻的。我发誓,50年来我学到的大部分知识都已经过时了。当你们再活50或60年,我甚至无法想象会有什么新事物出现在你们的地平线上!
此外,还有一件你可能不知道的事情。在我祖母生活的时代,人们通常相信发生在母亲身上的事情会影响到婴儿。我的祖父曾用熨斗砸伤我怀孕祖母的头部,当她被送进医院时,我祖母最担心的就是我母亲的头部会受伤。

Level3Kobold
The genetic component of IQ starts small and grows larger as you reach adulthood.
At age 4, your IQ has more to do with your upbringing and environment.
At age 24, your IQ has more to do with whose DNA you inherited.

基因对智商的影响,小时候很小,当你成年后就会变大。
4岁时,你的智商更多地与你的成长环境有关。
24岁的时候,你的智商与你遗传的DNA有更多的关系。

sneakyveriniki
Yeah, I’ve been working in education for a decade. The variation in how well little kids can focus/learn/etc seems to be overwhelmingly due to their home lives. What’s messed up is people are always talking about kids being innately smart and teachers start to treat those kids as special, and give them more attention, and it becomes this snowball effect.
I live in an overwhelming white region in the US, but I did for a while tutor at Kumon, which has tons of East/South Asian kids. I will say they at least didn’t do this nearly as much. They treated learning as a matter of discipline rather than how “naturally gifted” you are.

我在教育行业工作十年了。孩子们在注意力/学习等方面的差异主要取决于他们的家庭环境。糟糕的是,人们总是说一些孩子天生聪明,于是老师们开始把这些孩子当成特殊的孩子,给予他们更多的关注,这就变成了雪球效应。
我住在美国一个白人占多数的地区,但我做过一段时间的家教,那里有很多东亚/南亚的孩子。我想说,他们没有舆论吹的那么神。他们更多的是把学习看成是一种纪律,而不是天生就很聪明。

mjb2012
Armchair psychologist but adoptive parent here.
I don't know if they took this into account, but adoptees tend to have had major stressors adversely affecting their development.
[addendum, 24 hours later:] This comment has gotten a ton of feedback, mostly positive and supportive, so thanks for that!
A few things I want to point out, though:
The study is paywalled. If you are able to see the whole thing, you probably have access through an institution with a subscxtion. For me, the lix in the original post only lets me see the Highlights & Abstract. So I have not seen the entire study. I reacted to just the parts I can see.
I don't doubt the study's specific observations and conclusions; they're surely valid for the sample, and like I said, I'm not a psychologist.
It's just the way it's being reported that's raising eyebrows. We're all mostly bristling at the headline's implication that adoption simply did not help the kids, in terms of IQ and schooling later in life. This seems to contradict the kind of information I got in foster/adoptive parent training, as well as my subjective experience as such a parent.

评论区一堆纸上谈兵的心理学家,我是实打实的养父母。
我不知道他们是否考虑到这一点,被收养者往往承担着极大的压力,这对他们的发展产生不利影响。。
[补充,24小时后]这条评论得到了大量的反馈,大部分都是积极支持的,所以非常感谢!
不过,我想指出几点:
这项研究是付费的。你需要付钱订阅才能浏览完整信息。对我来说,文章链接只能让我看到重点和摘要。所以我没有看到整个研究。我只对我能看到的部分做出理解反馈。
我不怀疑这项研究的具体观察和结论;就像我说的,我不是心理学家。
只是这项研究的报道方式让人吃惊。我们大多数人都对这一标题的暗示感到愤怒,即收养根本无法在智力和教育方面帮助孩子。这与我在养父母培训中得到的信息相矛盾,也与我作为父母的主观经验相矛盾。

In the foster/adoptive parent training I got, they really hammered it home that all stages of development have been shown to be critical to outcomes later in life; their experiences with trauma do tend to adversely affect their development, e.g. creating long-lasting challenges with emotional regulation, which in turn affects other aspects of life
For example, my adopted child, diagnosed with CPTSD, is plagued by nightmares and (if the meds aren't working) waking hallucinations, so they sometimes are very much in a fight-or-flight, anxious state of mind. If you give a traumatized, sleep-deprived, terrified, heavily medicated kid an IQ test or compare their academic progress to that of a "normal" child, then you're going to see the adoptee doesn't fare so well. But assess them on one of their good days (which they have more & more of, thanks to being adopted), and they're sharp as a tack. Sharper and making more progress than a biological kid? No, at best, they're in the same league as their peers, just like the study apparently found. But sharper than they would be if they'd languished in the foster care or a severely abusive home? Almost certainly... and that's the basis of my critique.

在我接受的养父母培训中,他们强调的是,已证明所有的发展阶段,都对以后的生活至关重要。
他们的心理创伤往往会对他们的发展产生不利影响,例如,很难进行自我情绪调节,而这反过来又会影响生活的其他方面。
例如,我收养的孩子被诊断患有CPTSD,他被噩梦所困扰,(如果药物不起作用)还会出现幻觉,所以他们有时会处于一种战斗或逃跑的焦虑状态。如果你给一个精神受创、睡眠不足、恐惧、用药严重的孩子做智商测试,或者把他们的学业进步与“正常”孩子进行比较,那么你会发现被收养的孩子的表现都不太好。
随着时间的推移,收养的孩子会比亲生孩子更聪明,进步更大吗?不,最好的情况是,他们只是与同龄人处于相同水平,就像研究发现的那样。
但与在寄养家庭或遭受严重虐待的家庭相比,他们会变得更坚强吗?答案几乎是肯定的……这就是我评论想表达的意思。

DogHair_DontCare
Yep, cousin who is adopted from another country at 6 months has attachment issues which the psychiatrist specifically attributes to her not being touched or cared for correctly until 6 months of age. If you cry when you are truly in need and no one ever addresses your needs, it affects you fundamentally, even when you are only a few months old, your brain is working and absorbing your environment.
Edit: search adoptions attachment disorder - it is a well-known issue. My cousin is in her late teens and deals with very self-destructive behaviors

是的,6个月时从外国家收养的表妹就出现了依恋问题,精神病学家把这归因于她在6个月大之前没有被抚慰或正确地照顾。如果你在真正需要帮助时大哭,却没有人满足你的需求,这会从根本上影响你,即使你当时只有几个月大,但你的大脑会根据环境刺激做出不同的反应变化。
搜索收养依恋障碍,这是一个很常见的问题。我的表妹如今快十几岁了,经常有自我毁灭的行为。

__versus
A high heritability also doesn’t mean the trait is mostly genetically determined. Imagine you have two groups of people, 1 group is generally suffering from extreme malnutrition and the other is thriving. Within each group height is measured to very heritable, but group 1 is obviously going to shorter than group 2 on average so even if heritability is extremely high for height within each group it would be foolish to assume that environment bears no impact on height.

高遗传性也并不意味着性状主要是由遗传决定的。假设有两组人,一组人普遍营养不良,另一组人健康状况良好。每一组都遗传了高个基因,那么第一组平均要比第二组要矮,所以即使基因的可遗传性非常高,认为环境没有影响也是愚蠢的。

carlos_6m
IQ represents how easy for you is to learn and absorb knowledge (roughly) but how you choose to do so plays an important role...
You can think about IQ as having a better or worse tool for the job, the job gets done well if you do it well in the end, tool helps but doesn't do the whole job

智商代表了你学习和吸收知识的难易程度(粗略地讲法),但你选择如何学习更重要……
你可以把智商看作是对工作有利的工具,如果你认真做工作,工作就会完成得很好,工具有帮助,但不是百分之百的帮助。

ProbingPossibilities
Yeah but you’re not building rockets any time soon with a plastic wrench. Society needs better support for individuals born with lower levels of intelligence. They’re not going to catch up, no matter how many good wishes you send their way.

是,但你不能在短时间内用塑料扳手造火箭。社会需要对出生时智力水平较低的人提供更好的支持。但不管你给他们送上多少祝福,他们都赶不上你。

Last5seconds
Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard

有天赋却不努力,努力就会打败天赋

InMemoryOfReckful
Theres lots of 130+ IQ folks working dead end jobs with lame pay. And lots of average IQ folks achieving pretty incredible stuff.

有很多智商130以上的人做着没有前途的工作,薪水很低。很多智商一般的人却能取得令人难以置信的成就。

Maephia
Being high IQ without passion or the money to make something out of a passion is a recipe for disaster, because grasping things quickly means you also get bored of a lot of things extremely fast.

高智商却没有激情,或者没有钱将激情付诸实践,这是灾难的根源,因为快速掌握事物意味着你也会以极快的速度对事物感到厌倦。

Orangeflea215
because grasping things quickly means you also get bored of a lot of things extremely fast.
I would argue that it depends on your personality, there are plenty of people that lose interest when they don’t grasp things quickly.

因为快速掌握事物意味着你也会以极快的速度对事物感到厌倦。
我认为这取决于你的个性,很多人对不能快速理解的事物失去兴趣。

YuropLMAO
Theres lots of 130+ IQ folks working dead end jobs with lame pay.
Isn't this pretty much the self proclaimed profile of most redditors? Super high IQ but stuck at the bottom of society?

有很多智商130以上的人做着没有前途的工作,薪水很低。很多智商一般的人却能取得令人难以置信的成就。
这难道不是大多数红迪用户的自我介绍吗?智商超高却被困在社会底层?

rosts
You're conflating knowledge with intelligence. Someone with an IQ of 80 could e.g. be taught the basics of how evolution works and still grasp it. There are people with high IQs that don't have the faintest idea how it works. You can teach people with low IQ a great deal of things, but it generally will be much harder for them than teaching the same things to someone with 120 in IQ.

你把知识和智商混为一谈了。例如,一个智商为80的人可以被教授进化原理,并且掌握它。有些高智商的人根本不知道这些知识。你可以教低智商的人很多东西,但这比教智商120的人要困难得多。

redhighways
So 16% of the US population has an IQ below 85. That’s 54 million people.
Suddenly politics the last half a decade makes sense…

16%的美国人智商低于85。也就是5400万人。
突然间,过去五年的政治闹剧说的通了……

KindaEdibleMushroom
People also don't realise that there's a reason an IQ test can't reliably be taken online for exemple:
- Does the child/person looks stressed?
- Do they ask for clarifications when they look like they didn't understand the question?
- Do they ask the psychologist to repeat if they forgot something?
- How quickly do they give up?
- Do they try several things before finding/giving the correct answer, or do they always give the correct/wrong one right away?
Global IQ is less and less used, a bit like the average grade in school (I don't know if other countries also use it, but here in France it is a bit controversial). The goal of an IQ test is not to give a single score but to get an idea of what the profile of a person is, and to understand why they are encountering potential difficulties in their life. When you get an IQ test, the global IQ is just a number at the end of several pages of conclusions on how your brain tackles several types of problems and how well.
IQ tests can be a tool to detect dyslexia, dyscalculia and other learning disabilities, but also ADHD or autism. They can help to assess whether bad grades are due to low mental capacities, or personal issues.

人们并没有意识到,网上智商测试不准确是有原因的,例如:
-孩子/人测试时有压力吗?
-当他们不明白问题时,他们能得到对问题的解释吗?
-如果他们忘记了一些东西,他们能得到重复提醒吗?
-他们多久会选择放弃?
-他们是在找到/给出正确答案之前尝试好几种方法,还是马上给出正确/错误的答案?
如今全球智商测试越来越少使用,有点像学校里的平均成绩(我不知道其他国家是否也使用这个词,但在法国,这个词有点争议)。智商测试的目的不是给智商打分,而是了解一个人的概况,了解他们为什么在生活中遇到潜在困难。当你进行智商测试时,分数只是关于你的大脑如何处理几种类型的问题,以及表现如何的几页文字结论末尾的概括数字。
智商测试可以用来检测诵读困难、计算困难和其他学习障碍,也可以用来检测多动症或自闭症。它们可以帮助评估成绩不好是低智力引起的,还是个人问题引起的。

Last5seconds
I was a recruiter for the Navy. I would always ask people a couple questions before they took the test to gauge whether i thought they would pass, questions like “whats 1/2 plus 1/4?” If they could answer that without hesitation they normally would get a 50 or above. So many of them couldnt get a 15. I sucked in school, I barely passed high school, skipped classes etc and I made a 65 on the test and i wasn’t even prepared to take it. Im not smart by no means but damn some people are just dumb.

我是海军的招募人员。我总是在人们参加测试前问他们几个问题,看看他们是否能通过,比如“1/2 + 1/4是多少?”如果他们能毫不犹豫地回答这个问题,他们通常会得到50分或以上。很多人都拿不到15分。我在学校的成绩很差,因为逃课,高中勉强及格,考了65分。我当时甚至没有准备去参加考试。我一点也不聪明,但是有些人就是蠢。

AcademicDifficulty
What's up with all the comments trying to tie this to racial superiority?
An educated average person will out perform a genetically intelligent person who never received a day of education.

那些试图把这件事和种族优越感联系起来的评论是怎么回事?
一个受过教育的普通人会比一个基因上很聪明但从未受过一天教育的人表现得更好。

pen5
higher IQ result in a better life outcome?
Does it result in anything being better for the individual, or even for those around them?
There's more to life than IQ. Music, culture, empathy, honesty, integrity, hard work, theater, sports, how we treat our kids, our friends, our hospitality workers, how we derive our happiness, contentment.
Yeah, psychopaths are very intelligent.

高智商会带来更好的生活结果吗?
对个人,甚至对他们周围的人,会带来更好的结果吗?
生活中有比智商更重要的东西。音乐,文化,同理心,诚实,正直,努力工作,戏剧,体育,我们如何对待我们的孩子,我们的朋友,我们的员工,我们如何获得我们自己的幸福和满足感等等。
是的,很多精神变态都非常聪明。

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