网友讨人:为什么东南亚比东亚更穷?有什么原因吗?
2022-01-13 IPmod 26996
正文翻译


亚洲人一般都很努力,但我确实认为我们东南亚人通常不如东亚人努力。然而,我不想像东亚人那样努力工作,因为我认为这太过分了,因为尽管他们的国家正在发展,但他们不得不长时间工作。如果一个发达国家让你不开心(韩国人称韩国为“地狱朝鲜”),那么我不希望我们的国家是发达国家。

评论翻译
---第1节---

Layla May, Writes at beautyrabbithole.com (perfumes, skincare, makeup)
Asians are generally hardworking, but I do think that we Southeast Asians are generally less hardworking than East Asians. However, I don’t aspire to be as hardworking as East Asians because I think it’s excessive, as they have to work long hours despite their countries being developed. If a developed country makes you unhappy (Koreans call Korea “Hell Joseon”) then that’s not the developed country I want our country to be.
Southeast Asians have less sense of urgency. It’s common if something starts at 5, many of us would come at around 5.10. Strangely, some would even arrive much later lol. Japanese people on the other hand are super punctual. Koreans are also known for their pali pali pali culture.
Southeast Asians are less ambitious and less materialistic. I’m not sure about Japanese, but Koreans and Chinese are very materialistic and worldly so they strive hard to achieve all that as those things matter the most to them. There’s a saying that Chinese religion is money. Southeast Asians don’t care too much about materialism which I think a part of it is due to us being more religious and spiritual. So to many of us there is more to life than being the richest and most successful so we don’t give our all to be number 1 in material success all the time. Seems like many of us are quite content or actually aim to have a comfortable, simple life like having work-life balance, family, etc.
I agree the hot weather plays a role. I once saw a video about Singapore’s Prime Minister, Lee Kuan Yew. When asked which invention helped to develop Singapore the most, he said it’s the air conditioner because it enables people to work during day time. I’ve never thought about how important the air conditioner is to develop hot countries!!!

亚洲人一般都很努力,但我确实认为我们东南亚人通常不如东亚人努力。然而,我不想像东亚人那样努力工作,因为我认为这太过分了,因为尽管他们的国家正在发展,但他们不得不长时间工作。如果一个发达国家让你不开心(韩国人称韩国为“地狱朝鲜”),那么我不希望我们的国家是发达国家。
东南亚人没有那么有紧迫感。如果一件事情从5点开始,我们中的很多人都会在5点10分左右开始。奇怪的是,有些人甚至会晚到很多,哈哈。另一方面,日本人非常准时。韩国人也以他们的pali文化而闻名。
东南亚人没有那么雄心勃勃,也没有那么物质主义。我对日本人不太确定,但韩国人和中国人都很物质化和世俗化,所以他们努力做到这一切,因为这些事情对他们来说最重要。俗话说中国人的宗教就是金钱。东南亚人不太在乎物质主义,我认为这其中一部分原因是因为我们有更多的宗教性和精神性。所以对我们中的许多人来说,生活不仅仅是最富有和最成功,所以我们不会一直把所有的精力都放在物质成功的第一位。似乎我们中的很多人都很满足,或者说我们的目标是过一种舒适、简单的生活,比如平衡工作、生活、家庭等等。
我同意炎热的天气起了一定作用。我曾经看过一段关于新加坡总理李光耀的视频。当被问及哪项发明对新加坡的发展最有帮助时,他说是空调,因为它能让人们在白天工作。我从来没想过空调对发展热带国家有多重要!!!
---第2节---

Abhishek Das
, Young businessman/entrepreneur
As an Indian I hope I can lend my proper views.
The work ethic is a bit different in east Asian countries like Japan, Korea and China.
This might offend some south East Asian people what I am about to say. Singapore and Malaysia is definitely developed in South East Asia but Malaysia is not progressing further because of bhumiputro policy.
And a trend which I have seen in thais and Filipinos and little bit in Indonesians . They glorify malls. Whats with the craziness for malls?
They even think mall is a infrastructure. No my friend mall is just Entertainment . When I go to Bangkok or manila I see plenty of malls but no universities or public libraries. Maybe they are there but not visible. On that front Vietnam cherish books more than thais and Filipinos. I go to mall for watching movie , buying some clothes etc , end of day how big malls are doesn't matters .

作为一个印度人,我希望我能提出正确的看法。
在日本、韩国和中国等东亚国家,职业道德与东南亚有些不同。
我要说的话可能会冒犯一些东南亚人。新加坡和马来西亚肯定能在东南亚发展起来,但由于“bhumiputro”的政策,马来西亚没有取得进一步的进展。
我在泰国人和菲律宾人身上看到过这种趋势,在印度尼西亚人身上也看到过这种趋势。他们崇拜商场,为购物中心的疯狂是怎么回事?
他们甚至认为购物中心是一种基础设施。不,我的朋友,购物中心只是娱乐设施。当我去曼谷或马尼拉时,我看到很多购物中心,但没有大学或公共图书馆。也许它们有,但我没看见。在这方面,越南比泰国人和菲律宾人更珍视书籍。我会去购物中心看电影,买衣服等等,一天下来,购物中心有多大对我来说并不重要。

And Thailand is talking of 4.0 industry but don't see the push from people. I have seen expats in Thailand mostly of yoga , sexpats, retirees , food or in hotel business. But very few in investments in software.
Indonesia has a good manufacturing yet not enough for the population same like India but they don't even have a good service economy too.
Some East Asian countries develop all other cities from every front . Their capital city is not everything but some southeast Asia countries seems to worship their capital cities, other cities are not underdeveloped but major wealth creation happens in thier capital cities.
East Asian countries worship education and technology. Some southeast countries are happy with resources but east countries are heavily investing in technology of future.
And corruption is very less in East Asian countries. Vietnam has not been able to build a metro yet .

泰国正在谈论工业4.0,但看不到人们的推动。我在泰国见过很多外国人,他们主要从事瑜伽、*爱、养老、食品或酒店业务。但在软件方面的投资很少。
印度尼西亚有着良好的制造业,但就像印度一样,相对于其人口规模还不够,而且他们甚至没有良好的服务型经济。
一些东亚国家会从各个方面开发所有其他城市,他们的首都并不是一切,但一些东南亚国家似乎崇拜他们的首都,虽然它们的其他城市并非不发达,但主要财富创造都发生在他们的首都。
东亚国家崇拜教育和技术。一些东南亚国家对资源感到满意,但东亚国家正在大力投资未来的技术。
东亚国家的腐败现象也非常少,而越南还没有能力建造地铁。
---第3节---

Ryan S
I don't mean to offend anyone. But here are my assumptions.
I think that Southeast Asians have a hard time coping with the weather due to humid. Therefore, making them lose their energy and capacity to work. I also think that there is not much organization in private companies or governance. It isn't organized as well as it should be, there isn't a rule where you should do this and not do that. And even if there is, I don't think it's followed as much. My guess is if you could try and make people be held accountable for their actions more then people would start working more and trying harder.
On the other hand, I think that the government needs to do more and encourage various diverse exports, and tax the most generating cashed companies to generate welfare for the people. Look at South Korea it relies on a chaebol system of family run companies to help it survive. That's the beauty of capitalism once you can master the concept you can make the country rich and trustworthy.

我无意冒犯任何人,但以下是我的假设。
我认为东南亚人很难应付潮湿的天气。因此,他们失去了工作的精力和能力。我还认为东南亚国家在私营公司或治理方面没有太多的组织。它没有组织得很好,没有一个规则规定你应该这样做而不是那样做。即使有,我也不认为会有那么多人遵守。我的猜测是,如果你能让人们对自己的行为承担更多的责任,那么人们就会开始更加努力地工作。
另一方面,我认为政府需要做更多的工作,鼓励各种各样的出口,并对现金收入最高的公司征税,为人民创造福利。看看韩国,它依靠家族企业组成的财阀系统来帮助它生存。这就是资本主义的美妙之处,一旦你掌握了这个概念,你就能使这个国家变得富有和值得信赖。
---第4节---

Muhammad Satria Jaya, studied Law at Universitas Indonesia (2018)
I’m trying to give you an obxtive answer based on my limited knowledge and experience. Keep in mind that this is merely my personal opinion.
I think the main reason why Southeast Asia is poorer than in East Asia is the difference in regional political circumstances.
It’s lucky for Southeast Asia to have ASEAN as it helps to reduce political tensions among Southeast Asian countries. ASEAN has contributed to problem-solving and maintaining stability in Southeast Asia. The peaceful condition creates no urgency for Southeast Asian countries to develop itself. Except for Singapore, who has been excluded from Malaysia. Singapore needs to empower itself in order to survive and stand against its much-larger neighbours.

基于我有限的知识和经验,我试图给你一个客观的答案。但请记住,这只是我个人的看法。
我认为东南亚比东亚贫穷的主要原因是地区政治环境的差异。
东南亚拥有东盟是幸运的,因为它有助于缓解东南亚国家之间的政治紧张局势。东盟为解决东南亚问题和维护东南亚的稳定作出了贡献。和平的环境没有为东南亚国家的发展创造紧迫性,除了新加坡,因为它被排除在马来西亚之外。新加坡需要增强自身实力,才能生存下来并与更大的邻国抗衡。

However, it’s a different story in East Asia. East Asian countries have a long history of conflict, occupation, and war among each other. This kind of condition pushes East Asian countries to stand up for themselves. In other words, self-reliability is a must for them in order to survive. So, they develop their economy and advance their education systems. These efforts consequently lead them to prosperity and advancement.

然而,在东亚,情况就不同了。东亚国家之间有着长期的冲突、占领和战争历史。这种状况促使东亚国家必需自立。换言之,靠自己是他们生存的必要条件。因此,他们发展经济,发展教育体系,这些努力最终使他们走向繁荣和进步。
---第5节---

Rick Almeda, former Assistant Cashier at Metrobank (2001-2003)
Many southeast asians who migrate to east asia are hardworking and talented in their fields of work. If they’re like that, why does Southeast asia remain poor. It’s because of their Governments. Many governments in that area are led by corrupt and inefficient leaders who think only of themselves and not of their fellowmen. Many others are engaged in War that’s why they have no time to uploft the lives of their people. Many of them are import economies and not export oriented economies like China, Japan and Korea. They import more than they export, that’s why they have a deficit in dollar budget.
If only the leaders were disciplined, Southeast asia will be much prosperous.

许多移民到东亚的东南亚人在各自的工作领域都很努力,也很有天赋。如果他们是那样的话,为什么东南亚仍然贫穷呢?这是因为他们的政府。该地区的许多政府由腐败和低效的领导人领导,他们只考虑自己,而不考虑自己的同胞。还有许多人正在进行内斗,这就是为什么他们没有时间改善人民的生活。他们中的许多是进口型经济体,而不是像中国、日本和韩国这样的出口导向型经济体。他们的进口多于出口,这就是为什么他们的预算会出现赤字的原因。
如果领导人受到约束,东南亚就会更加繁荣。
---第6节---

Roberto Rizzo, studied Anthropology
I’m shocked no one has mentioned one of the major issues, which criss-crosses with some of the reasons given by others: colonialism.
With he exception of Thailand, all of Southeast Asia was depleted from any occasion to develop independently or to emulate and rehearse Western models of economy and politics as Japan did. This had enormous consequences even decades after formal de-colonization: unlike Japan or Korea, most countries in the region were left to their own devices overnight on all levels. Obviously, whereas Japanese had already been fluent for some time with terminology like “democracy” and “market economy”, places like Indonesia and Myanmar were still occupied with the huge question of what to do with such a notion as “nation state” in the first place, along borders created by others, which separated communities or, on the contrary, put together very different ethnicities.
That’s why even where the colonial period had left behind some decent infrastructure (as in Myanmar) the political troubles managed to hold the country back from the international economy stage. And even where economy seemed to have burgeoned (Singapore, but mostly because blessed with the deep lixs it established with China) it’s the political climate that’s been kept on hold.

我感到震惊的是,没有人提到其中一个重大问题,这与其他人提出的一些理由重叠:殖民主义。
除了泰国之外,所有东南亚国家在任何情况下都无法独立发展,也无法像日本那样模仿和实践西方的经济和政治模式。即使在正式去殖民化几十年后,这也产生了巨大的后果:与日本或韩国不同,与日本或韩国不同,该地区的大多数国家在各个层面上都只能在一夜之间自行其是。显然,尽管日本人已经流利地使用了“民主”和“市场经济”等术语一段时间,但像印度尼西亚和缅甸这样的地方仍然被一个巨大的问题所占据,即首先如何处理“民族国家”这一概念,沿着被其他国家划定的边界,将分离主义和截然不同的种族团结在一起。
这就是为什么即使在殖民时期留下了一些像样的基础设施的地方(如缅甸),政治问题也成功地将该国从国际经济舞台上拖了下来。即使在经济似乎已经蓬勃发展的地方(新加坡,但主要是因为它与中国建立了深厚的联系),政治问题也一直被搁置。
---第7节---
原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处


Caesar Karl, studied at Peking University
One eazy reason that no body want to admit:RACE.
For the SE countries,the more chinese percent they have,the more developed they are. There is no denying that east Asians are more smart and hard-working than SE asians,if you talk anything about history or climate . There always are vivid examples to contradict you. For history,do you know almost all SE countries are far more wealthy than China before 50s or even 70s,because China was trapped in the war almost 100 years,and China is semicolony as well.. But China has become a huge economy entity since it became to conduct reform and opening-up policyconomy and leave most SE countries behind. For the climate,how singapore is a developed country at the latitud?
In fact ,the essential point that determine a country's development is always it's people rather than anything else. That explains the achievement of Asian four tigers and China.

没有人愿意承认的一个冒犯人的原因:种族。
对东南亚国家来说,他们拥有的华人的比例越高,它们就越发达。如果你谈论历史或气候,不可否认的是东亚人都比东南亚人更聪明、更勤奋。当然也有生动的例子来反驳。在历史上,你知道吗,几乎所有的东南亚国家在50年代前甚至70年代前都比中国富裕得多,因为中国在战争中被困了将近100年,而中国也是半殖民地。但是,改革开放以来,中国已经成了一个巨大的经济实体,把大多数东南亚国家抛在了后面。就气候而言,为什么统一纬度的新加坡是一个发达国家?
事实上,决定一个国家发展的关键是人民,而不是其他任何东西。这就解释了亚洲四小龙和中国大陆的成就。
---第8节---

Donghwan Kim, College Student. Korean Canadian.
Myths:
SEAsians are less hardworking and intelligent.
SEAsia was destroyed much more than EAsia
Reality:
There is not a single developed country(except small ones) in the latitude of SEAsia. Being in hot latitude makes development difficult in many ways. Hot weather makes many hours simply unworkable. Tropical climate leads to very turbulent natural disasters. Tropical diseases cause huge losses as well. 1This leads to the endless bad cycle, causing bad healthcare, poor education, low ethic level, and corruption, which further worsen the economy.
People like to point those factors as the reason why SEAsia is poor, but after all if they were easily fixed, all countries would be rich.

胡说八道:
东南亚人不那么勤劳和聪明。
东南亚被摧毁的程度远远超过东亚。
现实:
东南亚所在的纬度上没有一个发达国家(除了小国)。处于炎热的纬度使发展在许多方面困难重重。炎热的天气使许多时间根本无法工作。热带气候导致非常频繁的自然灾害。热带疾病也会造成巨大损失。这就导致了无休止的恶性循环,导致了糟糕的医疗保健、糟糕的教育、低道德水平和腐败,进一步恶化了经济。
人们喜欢指出这些因素是东南亚贫穷的原因,但毕竟如果这些因素很容易解决,所有国家都会富裕起来。
---第9节---
原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处


Yue Yie, former Advisory Board Member (2017-2019)
Since ancient times SEA civilisations were based on trade and not manufacturing;
During western colonisation, the Dutch and the Brits played a divide and rule policy by bringing in immigrants to play active roles in the economy leaving the natives to their devices and internal politics. In the end the migrants are a step ahead in almost every aspect thanks to their close relationships with the colonial masters. Migrants still hold the keys to trade gateways allowing them to monopolise imports and exports of goods and services especially in Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia causing huge income disparity between the migrants and the natives;
Artificial national boundaries and monopoly tactics created by colonisation slowly destroyed maritime trade networks and ancient city state ports cestablished by the natives within just a century;
The weather allows SEA people to live with less money than those in East Asia. SEA natives don’t have to plan ahead for winter or to buy thick clothes to withstand the cold. In fact it is better to wear less clothes living in such heat leaving almost no room for progress in fashion and apparel.

自古以来,东南亚文明的基础就是贸易而不是制造业;
在西方殖民时期,荷兰人和英国人采取了分而治之的政策,引进移民,使他们在经济中发挥积极作用,让当地人自行管理,听天由命。最后,由于移民与殖民地主人的密切关系,他们几乎在各个方面都领先了一步。移民仍然掌握着贸易通道的钥匙,使他们能够垄断货物和服务的进出口,特别是在印度尼西亚、泰国和马来西亚,这造成了移民和当地人之间巨大的收入差距;
殖民造成的人为国界和垄断策略在短短一个世纪内慢慢摧毁了当地人建立的海上贸易网络和古代城邦港口;
气候使得东南亚人民比东亚人的生活支出更低。东南亚人不必提前计划过冬,也不必买厚衣服御寒。事实上,生活在如此炎热的环境中,少穿衣服会让时尚和服装行业几乎没有进步的空间。
---第10节---

Nabila Shukri, Chemist
aside singapore, malaysia is the only country in south east asia that close to be developed..malaysia have “very high” HDI where as most country in south east asia have medium HDI except thailand..I think the reason that south east asia poor is :
corruption. corruption is very rampant in south east asia..singapore is the only country that have zero corruption hence be a developed country. Only the rich people can have an access to all the money whereas poor people suffer..
Attitude. Attitude in south east asia is more relax and laid back..we are not as hardworking as korean or japanese that is why south east asia lagged behind east asia
Education. Education is also one of the reason that south east asia is poor..I think education is really important to developed a country and be rich but south east asia education is not that good and most people in south east asia except singapore, malaysia and philippine cannot speak english..
Natural disaster. South east asia is situated in the ring of fire and there is a lot natural disaster such as earthquake,volcano and others..country like indonesia and philippines have the worst natural disaster but singapore and malaysia is safe from it..

除了新加坡之外,马来西亚是东南亚唯一一个接近发达的国家。马来西亚的人类发展指数“非常高”,东南亚除泰国外,大多数国家的人类发展指数都处于中等水平。我认为东南亚贫穷的原因是:
腐败:东南亚的腐败非常猖獗。新加坡是唯一一个零腐败的国家,因此它是一个发达国家。大多数东南亚国家只有富人才能拿到所有的钱,而穷人却在受苦。
态度:东南亚人的状态是比较放松和悠闲的。我们不像韩国人和日本人那样勤劳,这就是为什么东南亚落后于东亚的原因。
教育:教育也是东南亚贫穷的原因之一。我认为教育对一个国家的发展和富裕确实很重要,但是东南亚的教育不是很好,除了新加坡、马来西亚和菲律宾,东南亚的大多数人都不会说英语。
自然灾害:东南亚地处环火山带之中,地震、火山等自然灾害频发,印尼、菲律宾等国自然灾害最为严重,但新加坡、马来西亚却不被影响。
---第11节---
Ooi Chai Giap 黄再业, Director for small enterprises at Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

If anything I can generalize why SEA is poorer than East Asia:
China, Japan, Taiwan, HK and South Korea are richer than SEA except Singapore.
Exception is North Korea is even poorer than most of SEA countries.
I choose one factor for the above. That is education.

如果有什么可以概括为什么东南亚比东亚更穷的话那就是:
除新加坡外,中国、日本、台湾地区、香港地区和韩国都比东南亚富有。
例外的是,朝鲜比大多数东南亚国家还要穷。
我为以上选择一个因素,这就是教育。

Look at universities ranking say by THES.
World University Rankings
The quality of education at these countries are top in Asian region (including Singapore) and top Asian Universities within 100 ranking are overwhelmingly from so call Sinosphere countries except North Korea and Vietnam.
All rich and developed countries basically have good quality of education. Therefore good quality education especially STEM fields will provide skills, competent, knowledgable and competitive manpower to steer the country to greater high.
Those country with general low quality of education will loss up in economy development. For example Vietnam, despite having more than 80 universities, but it is not surprising if many of university graduates become low ranking pay job like security guard, receptionist at hotel, taxi drivers, manual job, etc. Despite Vietnam able to attract FDI in manufactoring sector. Most of the factories set up in Vietnam are low technology products assembly, R&D is very negligible.

看看THES上的大学排名:
这些国家的教育质量在亚洲地区(包括新加坡)名列前茅,排名在100名以内的亚洲顶尖大学绝大多数来自所谓的中华圈国家,朝鲜和越南除外。
所有富裕和发达的国家基本上都有良好的教育质量。因此,高质量的教育,特别是STEM领域的教育,将提供有技术、能力、知识和竞争力的人力,引导国家走向更高的水平。
那些教育质量普遍较低的国家,将在经济发展中会遭受损失。例如越南,尽管有超过80所大学,但如果许多大学毕业生成为低级别的薪酬工作,如保安、酒店接待员、出租车司机、体力活等,也就不足为怪了。尽管越南能够在制造业吸引外国直接投资,但在越南设立的工厂大多是低技术的产品组装,研发几乎可以忽略不计。

Another factor greatly affect economic development of the country is corruption level. I dare to generalize that rich and well developed countries normally have low level or neglible corruption issues. There are many potential countries in SEA to be rich like East Asia countries mentioned above or Singapore but due to high level of corruption, these countries are faltered economically!

另一个严重影响国家经济发展的因素是腐败程度。我敢说,富裕和发达的国家的腐败问题一般都是低水平的或可以忽略的。在东南亚有许多潜在的国家可能会像上面提到的东亚国家或新加坡一样富有,但由于高度腐败,这些国家在经济上步履蹒跚!

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