人类是否有足够的生物学差异来进行种族分类或亚种分类?
正文翻译
Do humans have enough biological differences to be grouped into races or subspecies?
人类是否有足够的生物学差异来进行种族分类或亚种分类?
Do humans have enough biological differences to be grouped into races or subspecies?
人类是否有足够的生物学差异来进行种族分类或亚种分类?
评论翻译
如果你知道人类起源于非洲，而且几千年后，其中一些人离开了那片大陆，那么这种模式就不奇怪了。科学家们认为，现代欧洲人和亚洲人是5 - 7万年前离开非洲的人的后代。考虑到我们的物种起源于大约25万年前，我们所有人都有很深的非洲血统。
These charts are slightly misleading in that they don’t show that people from different human groups have always married each other. Some of that was due to people marrying neighbors and some was due to invaders marrying newly conquered peoples. (Or whatever people did back then instead of marriage.) As a result, there aren't many pure races or groups.
This chart depicts one people, the Yamnaya, invading Europe from the East, and mixing their genes with those of existing people or even largely replacing them. The small pie charts show the degree to which they replaced existing peoples. Invasions like that have happened over most of the world many times.
Based on modern genetics, the classic division of humanity into a handful of mostly non-African races makes no sense at all.
That guy in the lower left of this picture represents most of the world’s genetic variation. The other four guys are just recent descendants of Northeast Africans. They look different but looks are only skin deep.
这些图表有一点误导，因为它们没有表明来自不同人类群体的人总是彼此通婚。一些是由于人们与邻居结婚，一些是由于侵略者与新征服的民族结婚(或者是当时人们会去做的任何事情)。因此，没有很多纯粹的种族或群体。
这张图描绘了一个民族——颜纳亚人，自东方入侵欧洲，将他们的基因与现有的人混合，甚至在很大程度上取代了他们。小饼状图显示了他们取代现有民族的程度。像这样的入侵在世界大部分地区都发生过很多次。
基于现代遗传学，将人类划分为少数几个非非洲种族的经典说法毫无意义。
图片左下角的那个家伙代表了世界上大部分的基因变异。其他四个人都是东北非洲人的后代它们看起来不同，但外表只是表面。
Ygor Coelho
Excellent answer! Just a minor correction: technically, considering the usually agreed upon border of Europe is in the Urals and the western Kazakh semi-desert, then the Yamnaya were an East European people/culture, for their initial range was between the Dniester and the Volga, and a bit later between the eastern Balkanic coast of the Black Sea (Dobruja and the Bulgarian coast) and the Middle-Upper Volga.
优秀的答案！
稍微修正一下:技术上，考虑到欧洲的边界通常在乌拉尔和西哈萨克戈壁，颜纳亚人属于东欧民族/文化，因为他们最初的活动范围在德涅斯特河和伏尔加河之间，稍后在黑海的巴尔干东部海岸(多布鲁加和保加利亚海岸)和伏尔加河中上游之间。
Claire Jordan
Races - what in other groups we call localities - just about, so long as we remember that what are *traditionally* thought of as races, especially in the US, are nonsense. Biologically speaking, a white Norwegian and an ethnic Pakistani are undoubtedly the same “race”, while a Khoisan and a Somali are undoubtedly different races.
Sub-species, no, with the possible exception of the various groups of pygmy, whose physical difference from the majority is striking enough that if we saw it in another species we probably would call it a sub-species.
种族——在其他群体中我们称之为聚居地——只要我们记住，传统上被认为是种族的东西，尤其是在美国，都是无稽之谈。
从生物学上讲，一个挪威白人和一个巴基斯坦人无疑是同一个“种族”，而一个科伊桑人（位于南非）和一个索马里人无疑是不同的种族。
亚种，不，可能各种各样的侏儒群体例外，他们与大多数人的身体差异足够显著，如果我们从另一个物种角度上看它，我们可能会把它称为亚种。
Races - what in other groups we call localities - just about, so long as we remember that what are *traditionally* thought of as races, especially in the US, are nonsense. Biologically speaking, a white Norwegian and an ethnic Pakistani are undoubtedly the same “race”, while a Khoisan and a Somali are undoubtedly different races.
Sub-species, no, with the possible exception of the various groups of pygmy, whose physical difference from the majority is striking enough that if we saw it in another species we probably would call it a sub-species.
种族——在其他群体中我们称之为聚居地——只要我们记住，传统上被认为是种族的东西，尤其是在美国，都是无稽之谈。
从生物学上讲，一个挪威白人和一个巴基斯坦人无疑是同一个“种族”，而一个科伊桑人（位于南非）和一个索马里人无疑是不同的种族。
亚种，不，可能各种各样的侏儒群体例外，他们与大多数人的身体差异足够显著，如果我们从另一个物种角度上看它，我们可能会把它称为亚种。
Jake Williams
No. To do so is to ignore the vast differences in the same species.
We create subspecies when there are significant differences in two populations that, nonetheless, are still capable of producing fertile young and/or otherwise have enough similarities to still be the same species.
Dogs and wolves are the same species, canis lupus, however the domestic dog is the subspecies canis lupus familiaris. This is because even though they are perfectly capable of successfully breading, they very rarely do so, and thus have almost perfectly separated (speciation), and while they are very similar, there are differences in their biology and psychology that are meaningful; dogs, for example, don't fully 'grow', remaining at a developmental stage wolves pass through, which is why they continue to wag their tails even though wolves cease this behaviour at around 3 years of age.
I would perhaps continue this to create the analogy that different 'races' therefore more accurately breeds, but even that would be overstating it. Breeds of dog can be several times larger than others, and have vastly different phenotypes. Races of human do not have anywhere near this amount of variation; it's safe to say two beagles could be as different as any two humans.
'Race' is an arbitrary system of differentiation, and beyond that not a reliable one. 90% of human variation is found in Africa, two people who would be called 'black' could be more distantly related to each other than a white person and a Native American.
不，人类无法进行种族或亚种区分。这样做忽略了同一物种之间的巨大差异。
当两个种群之间存在显著差异时，我们就创造了亚种，尽管如此，它们仍然能够产生可生育的后代，并且/或在其他方面有足够的相似性，从而仍然是同一个物种。
狗和狼是同一物种，然而家狗是狼的亚种。这是因为尽管它们完全有能力成功繁殖，但它们很少这样做，因为几乎完全隔离(物种形成)。虽然它们非常相似，但它们在生物学和心理学上的差异是有意义的; 例如，狗还没有完全“长大”，只停留在狼经历的发育阶段，这就是为什么狼在3岁左右就停止摇尾巴的行为，而狗仍会继续摇尾巴。
狗的品种可以是其他品种的数倍，并且有非常不同的表现型。人类的种族没有接近这个数量的变异;可以肯定地说，任何两个人之间的差异可能和两只小猎犬之间的差异差不多。
“种族”是一种武断的区分方法，它并不可靠。90%的人类变异是在非洲发现的，两个被称为“黑人”的人之间的亲缘关系可能比一个白人和一个印第安人之间的亲缘关系更远。
No. To do so is to ignore the vast differences in the same species.
We create subspecies when there are significant differences in two populations that, nonetheless, are still capable of producing fertile young and/or otherwise have enough similarities to still be the same species.
Dogs and wolves are the same species, canis lupus, however the domestic dog is the subspecies canis lupus familiaris. This is because even though they are perfectly capable of successfully breading, they very rarely do so, and thus have almost perfectly separated (speciation), and while they are very similar, there are differences in their biology and psychology that are meaningful; dogs, for example, don't fully 'grow', remaining at a developmental stage wolves pass through, which is why they continue to wag their tails even though wolves cease this behaviour at around 3 years of age.
I would perhaps continue this to create the analogy that different 'races' therefore more accurately breeds, but even that would be overstating it. Breeds of dog can be several times larger than others, and have vastly different phenotypes. Races of human do not have anywhere near this amount of variation; it's safe to say two beagles could be as different as any two humans.
'Race' is an arbitrary system of differentiation, and beyond that not a reliable one. 90% of human variation is found in Africa, two people who would be called 'black' could be more distantly related to each other than a white person and a Native American.
不，人类无法进行种族或亚种区分。这样做忽略了同一物种之间的巨大差异。
当两个种群之间存在显著差异时，我们就创造了亚种，尽管如此，它们仍然能够产生可生育的后代，并且/或在其他方面有足够的相似性，从而仍然是同一个物种。
狗和狼是同一物种，然而家狗是狼的亚种。这是因为尽管它们完全有能力成功繁殖，但它们很少这样做，因为几乎完全隔离(物种形成)。虽然它们非常相似，但它们在生物学和心理学上的差异是有意义的; 例如，狗还没有完全“长大”，只停留在狼经历的发育阶段，这就是为什么狼在3岁左右就停止摇尾巴的行为，而狗仍会继续摇尾巴。
狗的品种可以是其他品种的数倍，并且有非常不同的表现型。人类的种族没有接近这个数量的变异;可以肯定地说，任何两个人之间的差异可能和两只小猎犬之间的差异差不多。
“种族”是一种武断的区分方法，它并不可靠。90%的人类变异是在非洲发现的，两个被称为“黑人”的人之间的亲缘关系可能比一个白人和一个印第安人之间的亲缘关系更远。
Israel Ramirez
Sure, but you won’t like the result if you are committed to older views on race.
Modern geneticists have tried to reconstruct our recent evolutionary history and development into races or ethnic groups. They typically get charts like this one, showing that most human variation is among Africans and all other peoples are a branch of Northeast Africans.
That pattern shouldn’t be surprising if you understand that humans originated in Africa and that, many thousands of years later, some of them left that continent. Scientists think that modern Europeans and Asians descend from peoples that left Africa 50,000–70,000 years ago. Given that our species originated roughly 250,000 ago, all of us have deep African ancestry.
当然可以把人类区分开来，但是如果你坚持旧的种族观点，你不会喜欢这样的结果。
现代遗传学家试图把我们最近的进化史和发展重建成种族或民族群体。他们通常会得到像这样的图表，显示大多数人类变异是在非洲人之间发生的，而其他民族都是东北非洲人的一个分支。
Sure, but you won’t like the result if you are committed to older views on race.
Modern geneticists have tried to reconstruct our recent evolutionary history and development into races or ethnic groups. They typically get charts like this one, showing that most human variation is among Africans and all other peoples are a branch of Northeast Africans.
That pattern shouldn’t be surprising if you understand that humans originated in Africa and that, many thousands of years later, some of them left that continent. Scientists think that modern Europeans and Asians descend from peoples that left Africa 50,000–70,000 years ago. Given that our species originated roughly 250,000 ago, all of us have deep African ancestry.
当然可以把人类区分开来，但是如果你坚持旧的种族观点，你不会喜欢这样的结果。
现代遗传学家试图把我们最近的进化史和发展重建成种族或民族群体。他们通常会得到像这样的图表，显示大多数人类变异是在非洲人之间发生的，而其他民族都是东北非洲人的一个分支。
如果你知道人类起源于非洲，而且几千年后，其中一些人离开了那片大陆，那么这种模式就不奇怪了。科学家们认为，现代欧洲人和亚洲人是5 - 7万年前离开非洲的人的后代。考虑到我们的物种起源于大约25万年前，我们所有人都有很深的非洲血统。
These charts are slightly misleading in that they don’t show that people from different human groups have always married each other. Some of that was due to people marrying neighbors and some was due to invaders marrying newly conquered peoples. (Or whatever people did back then instead of marriage.) As a result, there aren't many pure races or groups.
This chart depicts one people, the Yamnaya, invading Europe from the East, and mixing their genes with those of existing people or even largely replacing them. The small pie charts show the degree to which they replaced existing peoples. Invasions like that have happened over most of the world many times.
Based on modern genetics, the classic division of humanity into a handful of mostly non-African races makes no sense at all.
That guy in the lower left of this picture represents most of the world’s genetic variation. The other four guys are just recent descendants of Northeast Africans. They look different but looks are only skin deep.
这些图表有一点误导，因为它们没有表明来自不同人类群体的人总是彼此通婚。一些是由于人们与邻居结婚，一些是由于侵略者与新征服的民族结婚(或者是当时人们会去做的任何事情)。因此，没有很多纯粹的种族或群体。
这张图描绘了一个民族——颜纳亚人，自东方入侵欧洲，将他们的基因与现有的人混合，甚至在很大程度上取代了他们。小饼状图显示了他们取代现有民族的程度。像这样的入侵在世界大部分地区都发生过很多次。
基于现代遗传学，将人类划分为少数几个非非洲种族的经典说法毫无意义。
图片左下角的那个家伙代表了世界上大部分的基因变异。其他四个人都是东北非洲人的后代它们看起来不同，但外表只是表面。
Ygor Coelho
Excellent answer! Just a minor correction: technically, considering the usually agreed upon border of Europe is in the Urals and the western Kazakh semi-desert, then the Yamnaya were an East European people/culture, for their initial range was between the Dniester and the Volga, and a bit later between the eastern Balkanic coast of the Black Sea (Dobruja and the Bulgarian coast) and the Middle-Upper Volga.
优秀的答案！
稍微修正一下:技术上，考虑到欧洲的边界通常在乌拉尔和西哈萨克戈壁，颜纳亚人属于东欧民族/文化，因为他们最初的活动范围在德涅斯特河和伏尔加河之间，稍后在黑海的巴尔干东部海岸(多布鲁加和保加利亚海岸)和伏尔加河中上游之间。
Israel Ramirez
I have seen these people described as Central Asian but you are correct. I removed the word Asian but describe them as coming from the East.
Thanks.
我见过这些人被描述为中亚人，但你是对的。我去掉了“亚洲人”这个词，把他们描述成来自东方。
谢谢。
I have seen these people described as Central Asian but you are correct. I removed the word Asian but describe them as coming from the East.
Thanks.
我见过这些人被描述为中亚人，但你是对的。我去掉了“亚洲人”这个词，把他们描述成来自东方。
谢谢。
Frank Jens
The Yamnaya were Eurasian. During high Antiquity, The Greeks had the border of Europe set on the Don River, not the Ourals.
The Yamnaya had no conception of being European least geographically, let alone culturally.
Europe was an arbitrary definition. It didn't mean anything related to ancestry or culture or religion like it somewhat does now.
Proof is there were Greeks of Asia, and Greeks of Europe, on top of Greeks of Libya and Aegyptus.
This is all a modern invention to decide that there was “white civilisation” West of Eurasia, and something else elsewhere.
If the Yamnaya were Europeans then many people in Asia including Iranians Syrians Uighurs North Indians and Mountain Pakistani are Europeans.
That's pure nonsense.
The Yamnaya were part of Europe s history. And of Asia s history, in pure geographical terms. But they were not a European people or nation as such concept did not exist then.
The only thing this post shows is that the step white Proto Indo European civilisation that was Yamnaya spread across both Europe and Asia, in geographical terms.
颜纳亚人是欧亚人。在古代，希腊人把欧洲的边界定在顿河上，而不是乌拉尔河。
颜纳亚人在地理上没有欧洲人的概念，更不用说在文化上了。欧洲是一个武断的定义。它的意思不像现在这样与祖先、文化或宗教有关。
证据是，在利比亚和埃及的希腊人之上，有亚洲的希腊人，也有欧洲的希腊人。所谓的欧亚大陆以西等地存在“白人文明”，是一种现代发明。
如果颜纳亚人是欧洲人，那么包括伊朗人、叙利亚人、北印度人和山地巴基斯坦人在内的许多亚洲人都是欧洲人。这纯粹是无稽之谈。
颜纳亚人是欧洲历史的一部分。从纯粹的地理角度来说，也是亚洲的历史。但他们不是欧洲民族或国家，因为当时还不存在这样的概念。
这篇文章唯一显示的是原始印欧文明颜纳亚在地理上跨越了欧洲和亚洲。
The Yamnaya were Eurasian. During high Antiquity, The Greeks had the border of Europe set on the Don River, not the Ourals.
The Yamnaya had no conception of being European least geographically, let alone culturally.
Europe was an arbitrary definition. It didn't mean anything related to ancestry or culture or religion like it somewhat does now.
Proof is there were Greeks of Asia, and Greeks of Europe, on top of Greeks of Libya and Aegyptus.
This is all a modern invention to decide that there was “white civilisation” West of Eurasia, and something else elsewhere.
If the Yamnaya were Europeans then many people in Asia including Iranians Syrians Uighurs North Indians and Mountain Pakistani are Europeans.
That's pure nonsense.
The Yamnaya were part of Europe s history. And of Asia s history, in pure geographical terms. But they were not a European people or nation as such concept did not exist then.
The only thing this post shows is that the step white Proto Indo European civilisation that was Yamnaya spread across both Europe and Asia, in geographical terms.
颜纳亚人是欧亚人。在古代，希腊人把欧洲的边界定在顿河上，而不是乌拉尔河。
颜纳亚人在地理上没有欧洲人的概念，更不用说在文化上了。欧洲是一个武断的定义。它的意思不像现在这样与祖先、文化或宗教有关。
证据是，在利比亚和埃及的希腊人之上，有亚洲的希腊人，也有欧洲的希腊人。所谓的欧亚大陆以西等地存在“白人文明”，是一种现代发明。
如果颜纳亚人是欧洲人，那么包括伊朗人、叙利亚人、北印度人和山地巴基斯坦人在内的许多亚洲人都是欧洲人。这纯粹是无稽之谈。
颜纳亚人是欧洲历史的一部分。从纯粹的地理角度来说，也是亚洲的历史。但他们不是欧洲民族或国家，因为当时还不存在这样的概念。
这篇文章唯一显示的是原始印欧文明颜纳亚在地理上跨越了欧洲和亚洲。
Ygor Coelho
Yes, of course, but since we live in the 21st century and our concept of Europe is a specific one that differs from that used by the ancient Greeks more than two millennia ago, then it’s useful to give their correct location for readers to understand where they really lived. If you say “Asia”, most people who never heard about the Yamnaya will never figure that by “Asia” what is meant is southern Ukraine and southwwestern Russia.
“颜纳亚人是曾经是欧亚人……”
是的，当然，但由于我们生活在21世纪，我们对欧洲的概念是一个特定的概念，不同于两千多年前古希腊人使用的概念，所以给出他们的正确位置，让读者了解他们真正生活的地方，这是很有用的。
如果你说“亚洲”，大多数从未听说过颜纳亚的人永远不会明白所谓的“亚洲”实际指的是乌克兰南部和俄罗斯西南部。
Yes, of course, but since we live in the 21st century and our concept of Europe is a specific one that differs from that used by the ancient Greeks more than two millennia ago, then it’s useful to give their correct location for readers to understand where they really lived. If you say “Asia”, most people who never heard about the Yamnaya will never figure that by “Asia” what is meant is southern Ukraine and southwwestern Russia.
“颜纳亚人是曾经是欧亚人……”
是的，当然，但由于我们生活在21世纪，我们对欧洲的概念是一个特定的概念，不同于两千多年前古希腊人使用的概念，所以给出他们的正确位置，让读者了解他们真正生活的地方，这是很有用的。
如果你说“亚洲”，大多数从未听说过颜纳亚的人永远不会明白所谓的“亚洲”实际指的是乌克兰南部和俄罗斯西南部。
It is extremely anachronistic to describe the Yamnaya as “Slavic” just because they had somewhat overlapping territories IN THE LAST FEW CENTURIES (yep, because until the 16th-17th century Slavs barely lived in the Pontic-Caspian steppes occupied by Turkic peoples that actually enslaved and sold Slavic people in port cities of Crimea, the upper Volga and elsewhere).
“这篇文章唯一显示的是原始印欧文明颜纳亚在地理上跨越了欧洲和亚洲。”
仅仅因为颜纳亚人在过去的几个世纪里与斯拉夫人有一些重叠的领土，就把他们描述为“斯拉夫人”是极其不合时宜的。（是的，因为在16 -17世纪之前，斯拉夫人几乎不生活在波旁-里海大草原上，这些草原被突厥人占领，他们实际上在克里米亚、伏尔加河上游和其他地方的港口城市奴役和贩卖斯拉夫人）
“这篇文章唯一显示的是原始印欧文明颜纳亚在地理上跨越了欧洲和亚洲。”
仅仅因为颜纳亚人在过去的几个世纪里与斯拉夫人有一些重叠的领土，就把他们描述为“斯拉夫人”是极其不合时宜的。（是的，因为在16 -17世纪之前，斯拉夫人几乎不生活在波旁-里海大草原上，这些草原被突厥人占领，他们实际上在克里米亚、伏尔加河上游和其他地方的港口城市奴役和贩卖斯拉夫人）
Frank Jens
Labels like Slavic or European is what contemporaneous writers, academics, researchers and historians ascribe to the forebears, in need of a historical notional definition area.
We are aware they were nothing Slavic. It didn't exist at the time.
They were steppe pontic pastoralist/herders.
In fact the Yamnaya were ancestors to modern continental Europeans. Sardinians and Sicilians have relatively poor genetic contribution from the Yamnaya.
That's to say Europe as a geographical entity had genetically diverse streams. So Europe as a concept never reflected any idea of cultural uniformity of “race” or physical type.
They were also ancestral to Central Asians and near Easterners including Syrians and North Iranians, as well as Uyghurs.
The Tocharian the semi sedentary ancestors of the Uighurs are noted for their tartans and knowledge of wool manufacturing, which bears strong resemblance to that of the Celts.
Lastly Chess was found to be either invented in India or in Ireland, albeit separately. The Yamnaya are noted to have entered India across the HIndu Kush
同时代的作家、学者、研究人员和历史学家为其祖先贴上斯拉夫人或欧洲人这样的标签，是基于一个历史概念定义的区域的需要。
我们知道他们不是斯拉夫人。那时候这样的概念还不存在。
他们是草原的牧民。
事实上，颜纳亚人是现代欧洲大陆人的祖先（撒丁岛人和西西里人从颜纳亚人那里获得的基因贡献相对较少）。也就是说，欧洲作为一个地理实体存在着基因多样性。因此，欧洲作为一个概念，从来不曾反映任何“种族”或身体类型的文化一致性的想法。
他们也是中亚人和近东人的祖先，包括叙利亚人和北伊朗人，以及维吾尔人。吐火罗人是维吾尔人的半定居祖先，以他们的格子呢和羊毛制造的知识而闻名，这与凯尔特人有很大的相似之处。
最后，国际象棋被发现不是在印度就是在爱尔兰发明的，尽管各自是分开的。颜纳亚人是通过兴都库什山脉进入印度的。
Labels like Slavic or European is what contemporaneous writers, academics, researchers and historians ascribe to the forebears, in need of a historical notional definition area.
We are aware they were nothing Slavic. It didn't exist at the time.
They were steppe pontic pastoralist/herders.
In fact the Yamnaya were ancestors to modern continental Europeans. Sardinians and Sicilians have relatively poor genetic contribution from the Yamnaya.
That's to say Europe as a geographical entity had genetically diverse streams. So Europe as a concept never reflected any idea of cultural uniformity of “race” or physical type.
They were also ancestral to Central Asians and near Easterners including Syrians and North Iranians, as well as Uyghurs.
The Tocharian the semi sedentary ancestors of the Uighurs are noted for their tartans and knowledge of wool manufacturing, which bears strong resemblance to that of the Celts.
Lastly Chess was found to be either invented in India or in Ireland, albeit separately. The Yamnaya are noted to have entered India across the HIndu Kush
同时代的作家、学者、研究人员和历史学家为其祖先贴上斯拉夫人或欧洲人这样的标签，是基于一个历史概念定义的区域的需要。
我们知道他们不是斯拉夫人。那时候这样的概念还不存在。
他们是草原的牧民。
事实上，颜纳亚人是现代欧洲大陆人的祖先（撒丁岛人和西西里人从颜纳亚人那里获得的基因贡献相对较少）。也就是说，欧洲作为一个地理实体存在着基因多样性。因此，欧洲作为一个概念，从来不曾反映任何“种族”或身体类型的文化一致性的想法。
他们也是中亚人和近东人的祖先，包括叙利亚人和北伊朗人，以及维吾尔人。吐火罗人是维吾尔人的半定居祖先，以他们的格子呢和羊毛制造的知识而闻名，这与凯尔特人有很大的相似之处。
最后，国际象棋被发现不是在印度就是在爱尔兰发明的，尽管各自是分开的。颜纳亚人是通过兴都库什山脉进入印度的。
Felix Catlin
Wow, the implicit racism of that last picture is astounding. The white guy being central and looking off heroically into the middle distance. The other four pushed to the side. The 19th Century at its worst.
哇，最后一张照片隐含的种族主义令人震惊。
白人站在中间，英勇地望着远方。其他四个被推到一边。19世纪是最糟糕的时期。
Wow, the implicit racism of that last picture is astounding. The white guy being central and looking off heroically into the middle distance. The other four pushed to the side. The 19th Century at its worst.
哇，最后一张照片隐含的种族主义令人震惊。
白人站在中间，英勇地望着远方。其他四个被推到一边。19世纪是最糟糕的时期。
Ygor Coelho
Indeed. And the artist made all the others from average to ugly, while the Caucasoid guy is (by 19th c. beauty standards) very handsome and elegant. It's not even subtle. Lol
确实。艺术家画下的其他所有人要么普通要么丑陋，而高加索人是非常英俊和优雅(19世纪的美的标准)。
连微妙都谈不善。哈哈
Indeed. And the artist made all the others from average to ugly, while the Caucasoid guy is (by 19th c. beauty standards) very handsome and elegant. It's not even subtle. Lol
确实。艺术家画下的其他所有人要么普通要么丑陋，而高加索人是非常英俊和优雅(19世纪的美的标准)。
连微妙都谈不善。哈哈
Felix Catlin
I particularly like the shifty look to the Chinese guy. They didn't even try did they.
我尤其喜欢那个眼神看着就心里有鬼的中国人。他这里的种族主义甚至是不加掩饰的，不是吗？
I particularly like the shifty look to the Chinese guy. They didn't even try did they.
我尤其喜欢那个眼神看着就心里有鬼的中国人。他这里的种族主义甚至是不加掩饰的，不是吗？
Jake Van Wagoner
I don't see why I wouldn't like the result. This is an interesting result.
“如果你坚持旧的种族观点，你不会喜欢这样的结果。”
我不明白为什么我会不喜欢这个结果。这是一个有趣的结果。
I don't see why I wouldn't like the result. This is an interesting result.
“如果你坚持旧的种族观点，你不会喜欢这样的结果。”
我不明白为什么我会不喜欢这个结果。这是一个有趣的结果。
Israel Ramirez
I was thinking of people who are committed to classic race theories.
我指的是那些致力于经典种族理论的人。
I was thinking of people who are committed to classic race theories.
我指的是那些致力于经典种族理论的人。
Marcos Sheldon Padilla
In support of the marrying people statement, we tend to imagine horse-riding hordes, but they actually were moving much more slowly - note 1000 years from the Ukraine to Portugal etc. While I’m sure it wasn’t all sweetness and light, this was women and children included and pretty slow.
为了支持通婚的说法，我们倾向于想象骑马的部落，但他们实际上移动得慢得多——注意，从乌克兰到葡萄牙要1000年……。
同时我确信这并不全是甜蜜和轻松的，这里包括妇女和儿童，所以相当缓慢。
In support of the marrying people statement, we tend to imagine horse-riding hordes, but they actually were moving much more slowly - note 1000 years from the Ukraine to Portugal etc. While I’m sure it wasn’t all sweetness and light, this was women and children included and pretty slow.
为了支持通婚的说法，我们倾向于想象骑马的部落，但他们实际上移动得慢得多——注意，从乌克兰到葡萄牙要1000年……。
同时我确信这并不全是甜蜜和轻松的，这里包括妇女和儿童，所以相当缓慢。
Rico F Berg
The short answer is no. The only currently existing subspecies of humans is homo sapiens sapiens, full stop.
这个问题的简短回答是否定的。
目前唯一存在的人类亚种是智人，仅此而已。
The short answer is no. The only currently existing subspecies of humans is homo sapiens sapiens, full stop.
这个问题的简短回答是否定的。
目前唯一存在的人类亚种是智人，仅此而已。
Theresa Syn
That’s why skin color and “race” are bs constructs, invented the last 300 to 400 years ago( at least in terms of culture.) Just take a look at your DNA. I have many races in my family tree but I look white so it’s just bs, judging a book by its color is wrong.
这就是为什么肤色和“种族”是狗屁概念，是过去300到400年前发明的(至少在文化方面)。看看你的DNA吧。
我的族谱上有很多种族，但我看起来是白人，所以这纯属是废话。
通过颜色来判断一本书是错误的。
That’s why skin color and “race” are bs constructs, invented the last 300 to 400 years ago( at least in terms of culture.) Just take a look at your DNA. I have many races in my family tree but I look white so it’s just bs, judging a book by its color is wrong.
这就是为什么肤色和“种族”是狗屁概念，是过去300到400年前发明的(至少在文化方面)。看看你的DNA吧。
我的族谱上有很多种族，但我看起来是白人，所以这纯属是废话。
通过颜色来判断一本书是错误的。
Israel Ramirez
I agree.
我同意。
I agree.
我同意。
Nathan Grossman
I’m no expert, but my impression is that the concept of “race” traditionally used is too broad to be useful. For example, Ashkenazi Jews tend to be more genetically susceptible to certain diseases than other Middle Eastern, North African and Southern European populations, even though they have genetic similarities and have a similar “Mediterranean look”.
Similarly, as I understand it, West Africans tend to have more “fast twitch” muscles than other populations, which can account for the predominance of people of West African descent in Olympic sprinting events. However East Africans don’t have more “fast twitch” muscles, and are not predominant in Olympic sprinting, even though they share a general “Sub-Saharan African look” with West Africans.
In other words, the traditional conceptions of race, which are largely based on looks, fail to take into account that “looks are only skin deep”.
我不是专家，但我的印象是，传统上使用的“种族”概念太宽泛了，没有用。
例如，德系犹太人往往比其他中东、北非和南欧人口在基因上更容易感染某些疾病，尽管他们有基因相似性，并具有类似的"地中海长相"。
同样，据我所知，西非人往往比其他人群拥有更多的肌肉，这可以解释为什么西非人后裔在奥运会短跑项目中占主导地位。然而，东非人不是这样的，在奥运会短跑比赛中也不占优势，尽管他们和西非人一样有一种“撒哈拉以南非洲人的长相”。
换句话说，在很大程度上基于外貌的传统种族观念，没有考虑到“外貌是肤浅的”。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I’m no expert, but my impression is that the concept of “race” traditionally used is too broad to be useful. For example, Ashkenazi Jews tend to be more genetically susceptible to certain diseases than other Middle Eastern, North African and Southern European populations, even though they have genetic similarities and have a similar “Mediterranean look”.
Similarly, as I understand it, West Africans tend to have more “fast twitch” muscles than other populations, which can account for the predominance of people of West African descent in Olympic sprinting events. However East Africans don’t have more “fast twitch” muscles, and are not predominant in Olympic sprinting, even though they share a general “Sub-Saharan African look” with West Africans.
In other words, the traditional conceptions of race, which are largely based on looks, fail to take into account that “looks are only skin deep”.
我不是专家，但我的印象是，传统上使用的“种族”概念太宽泛了，没有用。
例如，德系犹太人往往比其他中东、北非和南欧人口在基因上更容易感染某些疾病，尽管他们有基因相似性，并具有类似的"地中海长相"。
同样，据我所知，西非人往往比其他人群拥有更多的肌肉，这可以解释为什么西非人后裔在奥运会短跑项目中占主导地位。然而，东非人不是这样的，在奥运会短跑比赛中也不占优势，尽管他们和西非人一样有一种“撒哈拉以南非洲人的长相”。
换句话说，在很大程度上基于外貌的传统种族观念，没有考虑到“外貌是肤浅的”。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
George Harrison
Very interesting.
One nitpick about your statement:
“Some of that was due to people marrying neighbors and some was due to invaders marrying newly conquered peoples.”
Inter-racial “marriage” was probably taboo back then as it still is by and large. “Guess who is coming to Dinner” is still true today.
So “marrying” in your statement is an euphemism for mostly rape of women from conquered or defeated tribes.
很有趣。对楼主的陈述进行一点挑剔:
“一些是由于人们与邻居结婚，一些是由于侵略者与新征服的民族结婚。”
跨种族的“婚姻”在当时可能是禁忌，这种禁忌现在仍然是普遍的。“猜猜谁会来吃晚饭”这句话今天仍然适用。（《猜猜谁会来吃晚饭》是上世纪60年代的一部电影，反应了跨种族婚姻对家庭的冲击。）
所以在你的声明中，“结婚”是一种委婉的说法，主要是指强奸来自被征服或战败部落的妇女。
Very interesting.
One nitpick about your statement:
“Some of that was due to people marrying neighbors and some was due to invaders marrying newly conquered peoples.”
Inter-racial “marriage” was probably taboo back then as it still is by and large. “Guess who is coming to Dinner” is still true today.
So “marrying” in your statement is an euphemism for mostly rape of women from conquered or defeated tribes.
很有趣。对楼主的陈述进行一点挑剔:
“一些是由于人们与邻居结婚，一些是由于侵略者与新征服的民族结婚。”
跨种族的“婚姻”在当时可能是禁忌，这种禁忌现在仍然是普遍的。“猜猜谁会来吃晚饭”这句话今天仍然适用。（《猜猜谁会来吃晚饭》是上世纪60年代的一部电影，反应了跨种族婚姻对家庭的冲击。）
所以在你的声明中，“结婚”是一种委婉的说法，主要是指强奸来自被征服或战败部落的妇女。
Israel Ramirez
Your views of inter ethnic marriage may be affected by your own cultural background. Latin Americans have intermarried more freely than North Americans. Some cultures discourage intermarriage and some don't.
Conquest is different from casual intermarriage in that it tends to produce males taking over conquered women. That's why native American mitochondrial DNA is so common in my group, Puerto Ricans. Geneticists see evidence for that sort of thing in some places but not others.
你对异族通婚的看法可能会受到你自身文化背景的影响。拉美人的通婚比北美人更自由。有些文化不鼓励异族通婚，有些则不然。
征服不同于自由的异族婚姻，它往往会导致男性接管被征服的女性。这就是为什么印第安人的线粒体DNA在我的族群波多黎各人中如此普遍。遗传学家在一些地方发现了这种现象的证据，但在另一些地方却没有。
Your views of inter ethnic marriage may be affected by your own cultural background. Latin Americans have intermarried more freely than North Americans. Some cultures discourage intermarriage and some don't.
Conquest is different from casual intermarriage in that it tends to produce males taking over conquered women. That's why native American mitochondrial DNA is so common in my group, Puerto Ricans. Geneticists see evidence for that sort of thing in some places but not others.
你对异族通婚的看法可能会受到你自身文化背景的影响。拉美人的通婚比北美人更自由。有些文化不鼓励异族通婚，有些则不然。
征服不同于自由的异族婚姻，它往往会导致男性接管被征服的女性。这就是为什么印第安人的线粒体DNA在我的族群波多黎各人中如此普遍。遗传学家在一些地方发现了这种现象的证据，但在另一些地方却没有。
Phil Dunlap
Like Iceland.
比如冰岛。
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Like Iceland.
比如冰岛。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Israel Ramirez
I don’t understand. I thought there wasn’t any native population there when the Europeans arrived.
我不明白你的意思。在我看来欧洲人抵达的时候那里没有土著人。
I don’t understand. I thought there wasn’t any native population there when the Europeans arrived.
我不明白你的意思。在我看来欧洲人抵达的时候那里没有土著人。
Phil Dunlap
Yeah, sorry, it wasn’t about the native population of Iceland. But my understanding is that Iceland was settled by Vikings who stopped by the Shetland islands and “collected” a bunch of Scottish women. So when geneticists studied the current population of Iceland the Y chromosomes can all be traced back to Norway and the mitochondrial DNA to Scotland. I believe someone did a rival human genome project using Icelandic DNA because of this phenomenon. Your comment just reminded me of that.
是的，抱歉。它不是关于冰岛的土著人。我的理解是，冰岛是维京人定居的地方，他们在设得兰群岛停留，抓走了一群苏格兰女人。因此，当遗传学家研究冰岛目前的人口时，Y染色体都可以追溯到挪威，而线粒体DNA则可以追溯到苏格兰。
因为这个现象，我相信有人用冰岛DNA做了一个与之竞争的人类基因组计划。你的评论正好提醒了我。
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Yeah, sorry, it wasn’t about the native population of Iceland. But my understanding is that Iceland was settled by Vikings who stopped by the Shetland islands and “collected” a bunch of Scottish women. So when geneticists studied the current population of Iceland the Y chromosomes can all be traced back to Norway and the mitochondrial DNA to Scotland. I believe someone did a rival human genome project using Icelandic DNA because of this phenomenon. Your comment just reminded me of that.
是的，抱歉。它不是关于冰岛的土著人。我的理解是，冰岛是维京人定居的地方，他们在设得兰群岛停留，抓走了一群苏格兰女人。因此，当遗传学家研究冰岛目前的人口时，Y染色体都可以追溯到挪威，而线粒体DNA则可以追溯到苏格兰。
因为这个现象，我相信有人用冰岛DNA做了一个与之竞争的人类基因组计划。你的评论正好提醒了我。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Israel Ramirez
Yes, I see. Thanks for the clarification. Another ugly story in the peopling of the Western World.
是的,我明白了。谢谢你的澄清。西方世界的另一个丑陋的故事。
Yes, I see. Thanks for the clarification. Another ugly story in the peopling of the Western World.
是的,我明白了。谢谢你的澄清。西方世界的另一个丑陋的故事。
Patrick Coyne
It's nice to blame the “Western World,” but this behavior is universal among humans - the Han among the southern Chinese cultures, the Mongols, the Seoul and Is ammo Turks, etc.
指责“西方世界”很好，但这种行为在人类中是普遍的——在中国南方文化中的汉人、蒙古人、首尔人和土耳其人等等。
It's nice to blame the “Western World,” but this behavior is universal among humans - the Han among the southern Chinese cultures, the Mongols, the Seoul and Is ammo Turks, etc.
指责“西方世界”很好，但这种行为在人类中是普遍的——在中国南方文化中的汉人、蒙古人、首尔人和土耳其人等等。
Walter Libl
Interestingly enough, the European men are probably most likely to intermarry with other races, if we are permitted to call them that. The Asians, especially the Indians or East Asians, are not that keen to mix. Some of it is due to religion, some due to cultural dislike. Of course, we cannot call that racist. That is only for the White Privileged Supremacists as it were…
有趣的是，如果我们允许这样称呼的话，欧洲男人是最有可能与其他种族通婚的。亚洲人，尤其是印度人和东亚人，不太喜欢混在一起。
有些是由于宗教，有些是由于文化上的厌恶。当然，我们不能称之为种族歧视。这只是对白人特权至上主义者来说的定义。
Interestingly enough, the European men are probably most likely to intermarry with other races, if we are permitted to call them that. The Asians, especially the Indians or East Asians, are not that keen to mix. Some of it is due to religion, some due to cultural dislike. Of course, we cannot call that racist. That is only for the White Privileged Supremacists as it were…
有趣的是，如果我们允许这样称呼的话，欧洲男人是最有可能与其他种族通婚的。亚洲人，尤其是印度人和东亚人，不太喜欢混在一起。
有些是由于宗教，有些是由于文化上的厌恶。当然，我们不能称之为种族歧视。这只是对白人特权至上主义者来说的定义。
Israel Ramirez
I don't know how widely that's true. Probability varies by country and circumstances.
我不知道这种说法有多普遍。概率因国家和环境而异。
I don't know how widely that's true. Probability varies by country and circumstances.
我不知道这种说法有多普遍。概率因国家和环境而异。
Richard Cali
You seem to have a difficulty in understanding the huge difference between Bias, conservative culture, repulsion/attraction on one hand and then racism on the other . It’s easy to conflate these because they are subsets of Racism , but one does not equal all. Racism has a supremacy and power dynamic attached to it.
Many people/ cultures are naturally biased to marrying their kind, many are conservative and marry for preservation of norms, others are simply not attracted to features outside of theirs . That is not Racist.
Do you agree that European men have the power dynamics to afford unrestricted foreign travel for many centuries of mans existence and as a result this would make them marry more across the “human spectrum “than any other set of males?
你似乎很难理解偏见、保守文化、排斥/吸引和种族主义之间的巨大差异。我们很容易把它们混为一谈，因为它们是种族主义的一部分，但一个人并不等于所有人。种族主义有一种霸权和权力的驱动因素。
许多人/文化自然偏向于与他们的同类结婚，许多人是保守的，结婚是为了保持规范，其他人只是不被他们以外的特征所吸引。这不是种族歧视。
欧洲男人有能力负担不受限制的国外旅行长达几个世纪，这使他们比任何其他类型的男性都能遇到更多样性的女人，你同意吗？
You seem to have a difficulty in understanding the huge difference between Bias, conservative culture, repulsion/attraction on one hand and then racism on the other . It’s easy to conflate these because they are subsets of Racism , but one does not equal all. Racism has a supremacy and power dynamic attached to it.
Many people/ cultures are naturally biased to marrying their kind, many are conservative and marry for preservation of norms, others are simply not attracted to features outside of theirs . That is not Racist.
Do you agree that European men have the power dynamics to afford unrestricted foreign travel for many centuries of mans existence and as a result this would make them marry more across the “human spectrum “than any other set of males?
你似乎很难理解偏见、保守文化、排斥/吸引和种族主义之间的巨大差异。我们很容易把它们混为一谈，因为它们是种族主义的一部分，但一个人并不等于所有人。种族主义有一种霸权和权力的驱动因素。
许多人/文化自然偏向于与他们的同类结婚，许多人是保守的，结婚是为了保持规范，其他人只是不被他们以外的特征所吸引。这不是种族歧视。
欧洲男人有能力负担不受限制的国外旅行长达几个世纪，这使他们比任何其他类型的男性都能遇到更多样性的女人，你同意吗？
Ygor Coelho
Not necessarily. Exogamy, particularly female exogamy, was very commonplace, with very ample evidence that tribes often exchanged wives that lived even hundreds of km away, without any expansion of one tribe over the territory of those other tribes living very far from them. Tribes did not only have foes. They usually depended heavily on a network of alliances, some of them very distant from their homeland. So, tribal people often did that and assured the endurance of their alliances and trade partnerships by marrying each other. It was much more usual than one thinks even recently. When the Portuguese arrived in Brazil instead of fighting them some tribes decided to instead adopt them into their tribes by marrying their daughters to the new settlers, making alliances and deals with them and even helping them defeat other European rivals vying for the conquest of the Brazilian shores, as well as other indigenous tribes. In their view (not so much in the view of the Europeans, though), by mixing with the settlers they were striking a much stronger alliance and promise of mutual assistance. That was known as “brother-in-lawism" (cunhadismo in Portuguese) and was hugely important for some tribes to get a better position in the new sociopolitical situation.
不一定。异族通婚，尤其是女性异族通婚，非常普遍，有足够的证据表明部落经常交换住在几百公里外的妻子，没有任何一个部落扩张到离他们很远的其他部落的领土。
部落不仅有敌人。他们通常非常依赖一个联盟网络，其中一些联盟远离他们的祖国。所以，部落的人经常这样做，并通过彼此通婚来确保他们的联盟和贸易伙伴关系。这种情况甚至比人们最近想象的还要常见。
当葡萄牙人到达巴西时，一些部落并没有与他们作战，而是决定将他们接纳为自己的部落，把他们的女儿嫁给新的定居者，与他们结盟，与他们打交道，甚至帮助他们击败其他欧洲对手，争夺巴西海岸并征服其他土著部落。在他们看来(尽管欧洲人不这么认为)，通过与定居者融合，他们形成了一个更强大的联盟，并承诺相互帮助。
这被称为“brother-in-lawism”，对一些部落在新的社会政治形势中获得更好的地位至关重要。
Not necessarily. Exogamy, particularly female exogamy, was very commonplace, with very ample evidence that tribes often exchanged wives that lived even hundreds of km away, without any expansion of one tribe over the territory of those other tribes living very far from them. Tribes did not only have foes. They usually depended heavily on a network of alliances, some of them very distant from their homeland. So, tribal people often did that and assured the endurance of their alliances and trade partnerships by marrying each other. It was much more usual than one thinks even recently. When the Portuguese arrived in Brazil instead of fighting them some tribes decided to instead adopt them into their tribes by marrying their daughters to the new settlers, making alliances and deals with them and even helping them defeat other European rivals vying for the conquest of the Brazilian shores, as well as other indigenous tribes. In their view (not so much in the view of the Europeans, though), by mixing with the settlers they were striking a much stronger alliance and promise of mutual assistance. That was known as “brother-in-lawism" (cunhadismo in Portuguese) and was hugely important for some tribes to get a better position in the new sociopolitical situation.
不一定。异族通婚，尤其是女性异族通婚，非常普遍，有足够的证据表明部落经常交换住在几百公里外的妻子，没有任何一个部落扩张到离他们很远的其他部落的领土。
部落不仅有敌人。他们通常非常依赖一个联盟网络，其中一些联盟远离他们的祖国。所以，部落的人经常这样做，并通过彼此通婚来确保他们的联盟和贸易伙伴关系。这种情况甚至比人们最近想象的还要常见。
当葡萄牙人到达巴西时，一些部落并没有与他们作战，而是决定将他们接纳为自己的部落，把他们的女儿嫁给新的定居者，与他们结盟，与他们打交道，甚至帮助他们击败其他欧洲对手，争夺巴西海岸并征服其他土著部落。在他们看来(尽管欧洲人不这么认为)，通过与定居者融合，他们形成了一个更强大的联盟，并承诺相互帮助。
这被称为“brother-in-lawism”，对一些部落在新的社会政治形势中获得更好的地位至关重要。
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