欧盟圈讨论:母语非英语者如何看待英语词取代母语词/英语语法污染母语语法的现象?
2022-07-24 yzy86 5821
正文翻译

i am specifically curious about two situations
if your language already has word that can express certain meaning, but people prefer to choose the equivalent english word
when people translate english into your language, it might contain grammar which only exist in english and not in your language. but as these kind of translations become more and more, people get used to it, or even integrate these newfound grammar into your language

我特别想知道以下两方面的情况:
1)如果在你的语言中已经存在能表达特定含义的单词,但人们更愿意选用与之对应的英语单词
2)当人们把英语翻译成你的语言时,可能会包含只存在于英语中而不存在于你的语言中的语法,但是,随着这种翻译方式越来越常见,人们渐渐习惯了,甚至把这些新发现的语法融入了你的语言中。

评论翻译
Assark
People definetly use English words even though there is a Swedish equivalent, its mostly teenagers that do this but there are still few words older people use instead of Swedish. I dont think English has had larger effect on Swedish grammar as most European languages have more complicated language "rules" and if you were to speak with English grammar you would sound like youre just starting to learn Swedish.

(瑞典)就算在瑞典语中存在相对应的单词,人们也肯定会选用英语单词,这么干的大多是青少年,但仍有少数几个词老年人会选用英语而不是瑞典语。我不认为英语对瑞典语语法的影响更大,因为大部分欧洲语言有着更为复杂的语言“规则”,如果你用英语语法讲瑞典语,听起来就像是你刚开始学习瑞典语。

We have this too when it comes to Swedish speaking folk in Finland. Although it isn't universal. Mostly spoken by Helsinki area teenagers. And even then it isn't that general. I think we have the same name for it too, so "svengelska".

(回,芬兰)芬兰那些说瑞典语的人群中也有这种情况。虽然并不普遍。这么说话的主要是赫尔辛基地区的青少年。即便如此,这种情况也不太普遍。我记得我们也是用同样的名字来称呼它的,即“svengelska”(即Swenglish,指掺入了英语发音和英语式表达的瑞典式伪英语)。
原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处


Surprisingly the immigrants that do speak Swedish tend not to use a lot of English. They tend to use more words from their native languages. Whether speaking Finnish or Swedish really. I'm guessing it's because English is difficult to use with Finnish, and because that's the main language most don't use English at all. The ones that do tend to be local and have a good grasp of both languages.

(回,芬兰)令人惊讶的是,那些说瑞典语的移民往往不会大量使用英语。他们使用更多的往往是他们母语中的词汇。无论是说芬兰语还是瑞典语,都是如此。我猜这是因为英语很难掺在芬兰语中使用,也因为芬兰语是主要语言,所以大多数人根本就不用英语。那些会去使用英语的人往往都是本地人,而且同时精通这两种语言。

I think people often change to English when there isn't a direct translation of a word, or if it's uncommon

(回,瑞典)我认为,当一个词无法直译或是很生僻时,人们往往就会改用英语。

aagjevraagje
Lazy but understandable if someone went to a university where English was mainly used. Driving wedge between people who go to uni's that just do bachelor ( hogeschool) and practical education ( Mbo) while not seeming all that classy at the same time.
English grammar in Dutch sounds incredibly childish.

(荷)
1)如果某人上的大学是那种主要使用英语的大学,那这种偷懒的做法也是可以理解的。也由此在只去大学念个学士的人和接受实践(职业)教育的人之间打入了楔子(译注:即作出区隔),同时又不会显得太过高雅。
2)在荷兰语中使用英语语法,听上去幼稚得要死。

Yeah a lot of people seem to use English because it's "cool". Especially in office speak. I'm talking to my manager about a meeting with stakeholders to improve the workflow. Our office newsletter needed a new name so they chose an English one for no reason at all, all our employees speak Dutch. People just think it makes it sound cool.
And yup on point 2. Most English words get changed to fit Dutch grammar.

(回)是的,很多人使用英语貌似是因为这样“很酷”。在办公室里讲话时就更是如此了。我正在和我的经理谈和股东开会的事情,为的是优化工作流程。之前我们的办公室通讯需要取一个新名字,所以他们毫无理由地选了一个英文名字,而我们所有员工说的都是荷兰语。人们就是觉得英语听起来很酷。
第2点也属实。大部分英语单词为了适应荷兰语语法都经过了改动。

well I only use 'fuck' 'nice' 'dammit' 'shit' in a sentence that would sound harsh in german or just out of trend. instead of "Der scheiß ist schön/geil" I would say "Der shit ist schon (sehr) nice" it's easier to say and would sound in person less weird than the former if you are amongst <40yr olds.. I would even say that it's socially more acceptable to use english swear words than german.
never liked to use 'manager' etc. 'Geschäftsführer' 'Abteilungsleiter' 'Leiter' and so on sound much more professional and got way more weight behind it than the english equivalent imho.

(回,德)好吧,我只有在听上去很刺耳或不合时宜的德语句子中才会使用fuck/nice/dammit/shit,而我不会说成“Der scheiß ist schön/geil”(“这玩意儿还挺厉害”),而是会说成“Der shit ist schon (sehr) nice”,这么说会更容易,而且,如果你身在不到40岁的人群中,这么说就不会像前者那么奇怪…我甚至可以这么说,相比于德语中的脏话,使用英语中的脏话更容易被社会大众接受。
“manager(经理)”之类的词我从来都不喜欢用。Geschäftsführer(总经理)/Abteilungsleiter(部门主管)/Leiter(头儿)这类词听上去就专业得多了,而且我觉得它们比英语中的对应的词更有分量。

I also hate it when my partner uses english words during sex. "Fick mich" sounds so much more erotic than "fuck me". ¯\\\\\\\\(ツ)/¯

我也很讨厌我的另一半在做爱时冒出英语单词。“Fick mich”听起来远比“fuck me”销魂呢。

Hard disagree on that last point. German can be a very beautiful language, but erotic? Absolutely not. Just sounds vulgar and offensive and silly to me.

(回,德)你说的最后一点我很难同意。德语也可以是一种非常美丽的语言,但你说勾人性欲?绝对不会的。对我来说,这听起来很粗俗,很冒犯,也很愚蠢。

if your partner can't be erotic with german then english won't make it better.
edit: it's even arousing in dialect if done right.

(回,德)如果无法用德语勾起你伴侣的性欲,那么用英语也不会有什么改善。
补充:只要操作得当,用方言也能让人欲火焚身。

People have brain rot from watching too much staged American porn and trying to emulate it . Of course it sounds dumb if you try to talk like that in your language, often direct translating their shitty lines. There's obviously a finer speech register for intimacy in all our languages that any normal person should be able to utilise.

(回,瑞典)人们看了太多表演痕迹过重的美国A片,还试图加以模仿,搞得大脑都生锈了。当然了,如果你试图用你的母语那样去说话,听上去会很傻,往往都是直译他们那些蹩脚的台词。显然,在我们所有的语言中都存在一个更精细的、适用于性关系的语域,任何正常人应该都能加以利用。

Dodecahedrus
I realised earlier today that we exclusively use the word ‘baby’ for a newborn/infant and don’t really have a word of our own that covers it.

(荷)我在今天早些时候意识到,我们只用“baby”这个词来指称新生儿/婴儿,在我们自己的语言中还真没有一个词来指称它。

Lubinski64
Compared to other European languages Polish seems very little affected. Unlike in say German, inserting an English phrase mid sentence is unusual and even if it does happen it is heavily altered to fit Polish pronunciation. Linguistic calques do happen more often but I wouldn't say they affect the grammar.

(波)和其他欧洲语言相比,波兰语受到的影响貌似是微乎其微的。和德语不同,在句子中间插入一个英语短语并不常见,即使有,也会大幅改动以适应波兰语的发音。语言上的转借确实更为常见,但我不认为它们会影响到语法。

listening to german music TV over 10 years ago was like: is this german or english? They used so many english phrases and words even back then already!

(回,德)我在十多年前听德语歌的mv时,心想:这到底是德语还是英语?他们早在那个年代就已经使用了大量的英语短语和单词!

Maybe the fact that both German and English are germanic languages means that combining them is easier and more natural. I'm currently listening to Polish rap and there's barely any English words, even fewer than in average teenager's speech.

(回,波)也许德语和英语同为日耳曼语的事实,意味着将二者结合起来更为容易,也更为自然。我现在听着波兰的说唱音乐,几乎没有任何英语单词,甚至比普通青少年讲话时还要少。

Akosjun
There are numerous English words that have no exact equivalent in Hungarian, in that case we use English words. It's just like it has always been: there were times when we loaned lots of French words, but we also have a lot of German loanwords. Some older people are salty about every single English loanword, and when they get all passive-aggressive doing it, I tend to counter them by correcting them at every word they use that was directly introduced from other languages to point out that it's not just English.

(匈)很多英语单词在匈牙利语中没有能恰好对应的词,在这种情况下,我们会使用英语单词。这也正是我们一直以来的做法:曾经有段时间,我们引入了海量的法语借词,但我们也有很多德语借词。一部分上了年纪的人对所有英语借词都心有芥蒂,而当他们开始消极反抗时,我往往会去驳斥他们,方法就是纠正他们使用的每一个直接从其他语言引入的单词,就是为了指出引入的不只是英语词。

IMO, there is such a thing as using too many English words, even for things that have a very good and common Hungarian equivalent. Now that is one of my pet peeves.
As Hungarian is not an Indo-European language, implanting English grammar into Hungarian is not really a thing since they're generally very incompatible.

在我看来,使用过多英语单词的情况是存在的,就连那些在匈牙利语中存在既精当又常见的对应词汇的事物也会使用英语。现在,这成了我无法忍受的事情之一。
由于匈牙利语不属于印欧语系,将英语语法植入匈牙利语其实并不存在,因为通常来说这两者是无法兼容的。

Raphelm
You’re sent to the guillotine if you do that.

(法)如果你这么做,就会被送上断头台。

More seriously, we’re notorious for being a pain about it and it’s true it does tend to hit a nerve in people here. Not so much younger generations, but I’ll admit that even myself, 28, I tend to roll my eyes when an English word is used instead of an already existing French one. Especially if it’s not any simpler/shorter.

更严重的是,我们因为反感这种事而臭名昭著,这种事确实容易触动我们法国人的神经。年轻一代对这个没有那么敏感,但我愿意承认,就算是28岁的我,当一个英语单词被用来代替已经存在的法语单词时,我往往会翻白眼。如果它没有更简单/更短,那就更会是如此了。

The Académie Française that tries to regulate/protect French language sure does not like that. To the extreme. I also think we shouldn’t take the habit of adopting too many English words into French, we already have a fair amount of them, but the Académie is often ridiculous with that.

试图规范/保护法语的法兰西学术院当然不会乐见这种情况。还走向了极端。我还认为我们不应该习惯性地在法语中采用过多的英语单词,我们已经有相当数量的英语单词了,但法兰西学术院对这事的反应往往都很可笑。



(译注:Académie Française(法兰西学术院)由四十名院士组成,集中了法国学术界的最高权威)

There is this famous letter from Charles de Gaulle, writing to his Minister of the armies in 1962 :
"I have noticed, especially in the military field, an excessive use of anglosaxon terminology.
I would appreciate that instructions would be given to forbid the use of foreign words each time a similar french wording exists and can be used ( with added by pen on the letter : "so, in all cases" )."

(回,法)戴高乐写过这么一封很著名的信,是他在1962年写给他的陆军部长的:
“我注意到,特别是在军事领域,存在过度使用盎格鲁萨克逊术语的情况。
如能下指令,每当存在类似的法语措辞且可以使用时禁止使用外语词汇,我会感激不尽的。”(他还在信上用笔加上了一句:“也就是在所有情况下”)

I'm an anglophone (bilingual now) living in France and my French partner works for a big company and shares his experience with me. What I find the most annoying is how English words and phrases are used and misused to sound modern and cool by people who barely speak it as a language. It's like people who use acronyms for everything in daily conversation. Unnecessary and confusing.

(回,旅法加拿大人)我生活在法国,且母语为英语(现在也会双语了),我的法国伙伴在一家大公司里工作,他同我分享了他的体验。我发现最惹人厌的就是:那些几乎从不说英语的人会去使用或误用英语单词和英语短语,只是为了听上去很现代、很酷。这就像是人们在日常对话中,把所有东西都用首字母缩写来替代了。这没有必要,而且令人费解。

As a contrast I work for a bilingual association who goes to great pains to preserve original intentionality of English and French, because each are good in different ways and shouldn't be oversimplified or conflated.

而与之形成对比的是,我为一个双语协会工作,该协会在不遗余力地守护英语和法语的原意,因为每一种语言都各有不同的优点,不应该被过度简化或掺杂在一起。

In my country everyone says that going to France and trying to communicate with someone in English is like announcing that you're going to shit in their garden. Especially with older generations.

(回)在我的国家,所有人都说,去法国并试图用英语和人交流时,就像是在宣布你要在他们的花园里拉屎。老一辈的人尤甚。

Younger generations may not be mad at English but they will point it out and make fun of (or just poke fun at) you if you insert English words. I've lived in an English speaking country for many years now but when I talk to French people (in France) I go to great length to not use any English even if I'm losing my French. And for example my cousins noticed because they said "we can't make fun of you because you actually don't use English in your sentences" (as opposed to another cousin also living abroad who just speaks Frenglish).
So yeah, people care one way or another.

(回,法)年轻一代可能不会因为英语而火大,但如果你插入了英语词,他们会指出并调戏你(或只是取笑)。我已经在英语国家生活了很多年,但是当我和法国人交谈时(用法语),就算我说出口的法语会有所缺失,我也会竭尽所能地不使用任何英语。比如,我的表兄妹们就注意到了,因为他们说:“我们也没办法取笑你,因为你在句子中真的没有使用英语”(而另一个同样生活在国外的表弟就相反,他会直接说法式英语)。
所以是的,人们是在乎这个的,以他们自己的方式。

The_red_spirit
Has been a complete nightmare for basically whole Europe.

(立陶宛)对于整个欧洲来说,这已经成为了一场彻头彻尾的噩梦。

Yep, and it's even more owful when your own country reporters and government pushes it and uses it during any given speech or interviews. So common folks start to misuse them due to guessing or lack of knowledge what these words actually mean in English.

(回)是的,当你自己国家的记者和政府都会在任何一场演讲或采访中推动它、使用它时,情况就更糟糕了。于是,普通人开始误用它们,因为他们只是在猜意思,或者不了解这些词在英语中的实际含义。

For some countries it's not just English. In Lithuania there's still some Russian language enclaves that poison language. Few centuries ago it was Poles who poisoned language. But then a counterargument could be made that Lithuanian language itself is making Samogitian extinct.

(回,立陶宛)对有些国家来说,出现这种情况的可不仅仅是英语。在立陶宛,仍存在一些讲俄语的飞地在污染我们的语言。几个世纪前,则是波兰语在污染我们的语言。但也可以反驳说,立陶宛语也正在让萨莫吉提亚语(译注:多见于立陶宛西部的萨莫吉提亚地区)走向灭绝。

jauznevimcosimamdat
Older people are screaming at clouds because young people use English words too much but the fact is our language is full of words borrowed and transformed from other languages, most notably German.
I don't remember any formal measures against the use of foreign words in informal use of Czech. I think we are not as crazy as French to ban using English words in Czech.

(捷)老人们大呼小叫,因为年轻人使用了过量的英语单词,但事实是,我们的语言充斥着从其他语言借来或经过改头换面的单词,最明显的就是德语了。
我不记得出台过什么正式的措施来打击在非正式使用捷克语时使用外来词的行为。我认为我们没有像法国人那样,疯狂地禁止在捷克语中使用英语单词。

Gwyndolins_Friend
I sometimes get frustrated because I noticed that my italian got noticeably worse the more I got fluent in english, partly because english is sometimes extremely more efficient than italian imo

有时我会感到沮丧,因为我注意到,我的英语越是流利,我的意大利语就会明显变差,部分原因是,我觉得英语有时候远比意大利语高效。
原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处


goodoverlord
It's a natural process and we had the same kind of influence from Greek, German, Dutch, French. Some loanwords and grammar will stick and will become a part of the language, something will fade out. There's nothing wrong with that.

(俄)这是一个很自然的过程,希腊语、德语、荷兰语、法语也以同样的方式影响过我们。一部分借词和语法会持续存在下去,成为这门语言的一部分,另一些则会逐渐消失。这也没有什么不对。

I had a semester of Russian and I was quite surprised how many French words you had.

(回,斯洛伐克)我学过一学期的俄语,让我特别惊讶的是,你们居然有那么多的法语词。

The second half of XVIII century and the first half of XIX were the golden age of French language in Russia. It was expected for a well-mannered person to speak French fluently and the Russian nobility often spoke French better than Russian.

(回,俄)十八世纪下半叶和十九世纪上半叶是法语在俄罗斯的黄金时代。一个有教养的人应该要能说一口流利的法语,俄罗斯贵族的法语,往往说得比俄语还要好。

krmarci
I'm really annoyed by it.
In the 19th century, we actually had a language renewal movement, to purge the language from the German and Latin loanwords.

(匈)这种现象真的很让我心烦。
十九世纪时,我们还搞了一次恢复语言运动,为的是把德语和拉丁语借词从我们的语言中清除出去。

imperialistsmustdie
It is a symptom of globalisation and a serious one at that. It is an existential threat to smaller nations, which is why it is more celebrated by inhabitants of bigger nations and typically resisted by smaller nations.

这是全球化的一种症状,而且是相当严重的症状。对小国来说,这是事关存亡的威胁,这也是为什么这种现象更受大国居民欢迎,而小国通常都会抵制它。

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