如果在美国由于独立战争在流行文化中将英国国王乔治三世描述为压迫者和暴君那么他在加拿大是被如何评价的?他是被骄傲的效忠派视为加拿大的国父而赞美吗?(二)
2023-02-05 sassbs 7978
正文翻译
Brian Stark
King George III is NOT portrayed in American history as a tyrant? What planet is this version of America on? The Declaration of Independence in America in which I’m presently residing is one long screed against the usurpations of George III. George III, and ONLY King George, is the Snidely Whiplash villain of the peace. When I was in school that was the narrative, because that is what one of two documents that created America said — explicitly

乔治三世国王在美国没有被描述为暴君?这个版本的美国在哪个星球上?反正我现在所在的美国《独立宣言》是一篇反对乔治三世篡夺行为的长篇大论。乔治三世,并且只有乔治三世是批判和平的尖刻恶棍。在我上学时就是这种叙事,因为这就是两个创造了美国的文件中其中一个说的-明白无误。

Now it may be true that George was made the personification of America's grievances against Britain, which more accurately should have been aimed at the House of Lords But that is merely a tactic of messaging. But in the American psyche, George is the fount of all that we rebelled against

现在来说可能乔治确实被作为美国对英国不满的化身,更准确的说是针对上议院,但这只是一种传达信息的策略。但是就美国精神而言,乔治就是我们所反抗的一切的根源。
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And is someone trying to say that this has all been debunked in the American mind by the musical, “Hamilton”? If thats the case, has the fact that all the signers of the Declaration and all the key players in the American Revolution were white Europeans been debunked as well. What about the fact that African Americas at the time were either slaves or second class citizens (if that) Has that been “debunked” as well by “Hamilton”?

这时是不是有人想说这点已经被音乐剧“汉密尔顿”从美国人的心中揭穿了?如果真是这样,美国独立宣言的所有签署者和美国革命的所有关键参与者都是欧洲白人也被揭穿了。那么当时的非洲裔美洲人要么是奴隶,要么是二等公民(如果是的话),这也被“汉密尔顿”“揭穿”了吗?

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评论翻译
Wes Frank
Okay, you do realize that the Declaration of Independence was written two hundred and forty years ago and is not used as the sole basis for history texts in the United States? American history narratives are generated by scholarly research using many sources, official documents, personal accounts, archived records, etc., just like every other nation’s history.
The Declaration of Independence is just one document in the history of the Revolutionary Crisis and American students are taught how Jefferson, in writing it, cleverly focused on the king as the personification and executive head of the British government, rather than diluting his message by jumping between the king, his ministers, and parliament. A brilliant creation, really, establishing a moral argument for revolution, listing the issues involved, and also serving as a polemic that could be read in public to promote the cause.

好吧,你能意识到独立宣言是240多年前写成的东西并且在美国也不被当作主要的根据性历史文本吧?美国的历史叙事是由学术研究产生的,它采用了许多来源,官方文件,个人纪录,存档档案等,就像其他所有国家的历史一样。
《独立宣言》只是革命危机历史中的一份文件。而美国学生们被教导杰弗逊在撰写时巧妙地奖国王当作英国政府的化身和行政首脑,而不是在国王,大臣和议会之间浪费笔墨来稀释他所要传达的信息。一个智慧性的创举,真的,为这场革命树立起一个道德性论点,列举出所涉及的问题,同时也能够作为一篇演讲在公共场合宣读以促进独立事业。

Roger King
The British were trying to protect the American colonies from an invasion by the French. The Americans did not want to contribute to the cost of their defence and hence rebelled.

英国当时试着要从法国入侵中保卫美洲殖民地。而美国人不想为这一事业作出贡献以保护自己同时就这样发动了反叛。

Wes Frank
You have the sequence of events all wrong.

你把事件的发生次序全搞错了
Between 1688 and 1763 Britain and France fought four major European wars. Their international rivalry over trade and power around the world was part of those conflicts. 在1688年到1763年期间英国与法国之间发生了4次主要的欧洲战争。他们之间在全世界世界贸易和权力上的国际竞争也是这些冲突的一部分。 The North American theater of those wars involved all the French and British colonies in North America. The twelve (and eventually thirteen) British agricultural colonies on the Atlantic coast of North America provided Britain with logistical support and manpower. The French colonies of what we now call Canada served as a base for constant, vicious border raids directed against the Thirteen Colonies by indigenous mercenaries and Canadian militia. 这些战争在北美战区将北美所有的法国和英国殖民地卷入其中。位于北美大西洋沿岸的12个(最终是13个)英国农业殖民地为英国提供了后勤支持和人力。法国的各殖民地既今天我们称之为加拿大的地方被作为原住民雇佣军和加拿大民兵对十三州殖民地边境进行持续、恶毒袭击的基地。 The last of these wars ended in 1763 with the British conquest of Canada. At this point, something like a quarter of the adult male population of New England were war veterans. The French had never been able to win victories that could do serious damage to the Thirteen Colonies and they now had a prosperous population a million strong, larger than that of Scotland. With that population doubling every twenty years, they would eventually be a powerful source of manpower and resources for the British Empire in Europe as well as the Americas. 这些战争在1763年英国征服加拿大后结束。这种情况下,新英格兰地区的成年男性中大约有四分之一都是退伍军人。法国人在这些战斗中从没有赢得过能够对13州殖民地造成严重破坏的胜利而现在它们繁荣昌盛比苏格兰的人口还多。随着人口每二十年翻一番,它们最终将会成为大英帝国在欧洲与美州强力的人力资源和自然资源的来源。 The war that ended in 1763 left the British government at peace, a major world power, and the wealthiest nation in Europe, but heavily in debt. As part of a colonial government reform program, Parliament decided to directly tax the Thirteen Colonies, overriding their traditional charters and the taxing authority that had always been vested in their elected assemblies. 在1763年结束的战争令英国政府保住了和平,成为了世界性的大国和欧洲最富裕的国家,但严重负债。作为殖民地政府改革计划的一部分,议会决定直接对13个殖民地征税,推翻他们的传统的特许权和一直由他们自己选举的集会所拥有的的征税权。 The declaration of Parliament that it could void colonial charters and the rights of the colonists was considered a breach of faith by the people of the colonies, some of which had been self-governing for over a century. Political arguments and protests continued for a decade, neither side willing to back down on this key issue. (英国)议会宣言宣称它有权废除殖民地宪章和殖民者的权力,而这被殖民地的人民看作对其信仰的破坏,其中一些人已经自治超过一个世纪了。政治争论和抗议持续了十年,没有任何一方愿意在这一关键问题上让步。 The dispute between Parliament and the Thirteen Colonies broke into violent conflict in 1775. British colonial authority collapsed from Maine to Georgia. All thirteen colonial assemblies seized control of their territory from royal governors, but still hoped for reconciliation. In October, however, King George III and his ministers declared them all traitors, vowing to reconquer the colonies and hang all of their leaders. (英国)议会和13个殖民地之间的争端在1775年爆发为暴力冲突。从缅因州到乔治亚州英国殖民当局的统治崩溃了。.所有13个殖民地的议会均从皇家总督手中夺取了其领土的控制权,但依然希望能够和解。然而在10月,乔治三世国王和他的大臣们宣布他们都是叛徒,并发誓要重新征服各殖民地同时绞死他们所有的领导者。 The British army and navy failed to reconquer any substantial territory in North American over the next eight years. France and Spain, sensing the opportunity to damage the rising British power and possibly regain lost territories from them, supported the rebellion of the Thirteen Colonies, France officially declaring war on Britain in 1778. 在接下来的8年里,英国陆军和海军未能实质性重新征服北美的任何领土。法国和西班牙意识到有破坏正在崛起中英国势力的机会,还可能从他们手中夺回失去的领土,为了支持13个殖民地的叛乱,法国于1778年正式对英国宣战。 The war officially ended in 1783, with the United States independent. The conflict between the Americans and British had been ongoing for twenty years, but Britain was only at war with France for the last five of those years. 1783年,随着美国的独立,战争正式结束。美国人和英国人之间的冲突已经持续了20年,但英国只在最后的5年中才与法国交战。

Bill H
Great summary- my only comment would be that the British recaptured plenty of territory during the war, but mostly just cities, as they were unable to get the support of the majority outside of the cities.

很棒的总结-我唯一要发表的意见是英国的确在战争期间夺回了大量领土,但大部分都是城市,因为他们无法得到城市外大多数人的支持。

Wes Frank
The British never managed to hold more than three at a time. What most histories don’t mention is that the state militias kept up a loose siege around those port cities, preventing the British from obtaining food, horses and supply locally. That made every outpost a drain on the British treasury, as most logistical support had to be drawn across the Atlantic from Ireland.

英国人从来没能做到同时对付三个敌人。大多数历史没有提到的是各州民兵们对这些港口城市坚持进行了松散的包围,以阻止英国人在当地获得食物、马匹和补给。这使得每个前哨站都在对英国的财政放血,导致大多数后勤支援必须从爱尔兰跨过大西洋。

Derek Mitchell
so why all the talk of the American Rebellion being about “fighting Tyranny”

所以为什么会有那么多美国反叛是关于“反抗暴政”的说法

Wes Frank
The American Revolution was about fighting tyranny . . . the tyranny of a parliament, aristocracy, and monarch on the far side of the ocean that was taking away the rights of two million free citizens who were, in the words of New Hampshire veteran: “Used to ruling ourselves.”
The British Parliament passed laws abrogating the rights of the colonists and their assemblies and charters. The king and his ministers decided how to enforce them. The king signed the documents ordering the military occupation of Boston and later denouncing the leaders of the colonies as traitors to be tried and executed at his convenience.
The English Civil War was fought over similar principles and every educated colonial was familiar with the events of the English Civil War.

美国独立战争是在反抗暴政…大洋彼岸的议会,贵族和君主的暴政剥夺了200万自由公民的权利,新罕布什尔州的老兵的话来说:“习惯了统治自己。”的权利。
英国议会通过了法律,废除殖民者及其议会和宪章的权利。国王和他的大臣们决定了如何执行它们。国王签署了命令军事占领波士顿的文件,之后又谴责殖民地的领导人是叛徒并会在他能够的时候审判和处决他们 。
英国内战(英国资产阶级革命战争)也是在基于类似原则的情况下战斗的,每个受过教育的殖民者都熟悉英国内战时的事件。

Ken Fayers
OK, but if American do understand the truth about George III why did they still put him in the musical “Hamilton”? It makes it look as if they don’t understand.

好吧,但是如果美国人知道有关乔治三世的真相,为什么他们还把他放在音乐剧《汉密尔顿》里?这让他们看起来好像不明白。

Wes Frank
George, as king, was the designated executive leader of the British government during the crisis from 1765 to 1783, even though he had to let his ministers have the final say. That makes him the logical choice in the play as a spokesperson character for British leadership during the crisis and the war.
Modern myths notwithstanding, King George III was not just a figurehead. He was the last British monarch to actively try to be king, as his mother had apparently told him to be when he was a child. Any detailed history of the War of American Independence is highlighted by his arguments with Lord North about taking a hard line with the colonists, George fearing that an American victory would lead to revolts in Jamaica and Ireland and the destruction of the British Empire. He repeatedly threatened to abdicate if his ministers considered a negotiated settlement and the final defeat in 1783 left him emotionally broken. He was mostly content to let his ministers rule after that.

在1765年至1783年的危机期间,乔治作为国王被指定为英国政府的执行领导人,尽管他只能让他的大臣们拥有最终的决定权。这令他成为了危机和战争期间英国领导者的合理选择。
不提现代的神话,乔治三世国王并不仅仅是一个有名无实的领袖。他是最后一位认真尝试作为实权国王的英国君主,正如他母亲很明显从小时候就告诉他那样。任何详细的美国独立战争历史都强调了他与诺斯公爵关于对殖民者采取强硬立场的争论,乔治担心美国的胜利会导致牙买加和爱尔兰的叛乱和大英帝国的毁灭。他一再威胁说,如果他的大臣们考虑通过谈判解决这个问题,他就退位。1783年的最终失败让他情绪崩溃了。此后他基本上就满足于他的大臣的统治了。

Steve Dutch
Mostly what we hear about George III is the opinions of some Americans of the time. He was not at all a bad king. And the grievances of the colonists revolved around him refusing to open lands west of the Appalachians that were promised to the Indians, and expecting colonists to pay for their own defense.
It was physically impossible for England to rule the colonies by force from the top down. And representation in Parliament was out of the question. Information traveled too slowly and the colonies would soon outnumber England itself. With a bit more savvy, England might have worked out a Commonwealth type solution with functional independence but close ties.

我们听到的关于乔治三世的观点大部分来源于一些当时美国人的看法。他并不完全是一个坏国王。殖民者的不满围绕着他拒绝开放阿巴拉契亚山脉以西被承诺给印第安人的土地,和希望殖民者为自己的防御买单。
从物理上讲,英国不可能从上而下的用武力统治殖民地。而授予在议会中的代表权也是不可能的。信息传播太慢同时殖民地的数量很快就会超过英国本土。如果稍微精明一点,英国可能会制定出一个英联邦式的解决方案,独立运行,但保持密切的联系。

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