网帖翻译

@Aya Shawn
Living in Singapore, professional investorJan 29
Two keywords are mentioned in this question: history and myth
Historical documents are very serious matters to the Chinese. It does not mean that just randomly discovering some stone carvings, scxtures, or parchment scrolls can be called "historical documents." The "historical documents" recognized by the Chinese are actually is very limited. Basically they are serious, formal historical archives and books.
The xia Dynasty is the first dynasty recorded in Chinese historical documents, there is no earlier one.

这个问题提到了两个关键词：历史和神话
历史文献对于中国人来说是非常严肃的事情。并不是说随便发现的一些石刻、经文、羊皮卷轴就可以称为“历史文献”。中国人承认的“历史文献”其实非常有限。基本上它们是严肃的、正式的历史档案和书籍。
夏朝是中国历史文献记载的第一个王朝，没有更早的王朝。

In addition to formal historical documents, other civilizations, countries or dynasties before the xia Dynasty will of course be recorded. However, in the Chinese view of history, these records can only be classified as "myths" or "unofficial histories", and they are not recognized by history.
In order to respect the historical habits of the Chinese people, I think it is inappropriate to use mythology and unofficial history to discuss the civilization before the xia Dynasty.
But this issue can be discussed using archaeological findings. Although in the eyes of the Chinese, simple archaeological discoveries cannot be regarded as trustworthy history. But their credibility is higher than myths and unofficial histories.

除了正式的历史文献之外，夏朝之前的其他文明、国家或朝代当然也会有记载。但在中国人的历史观中，这些记载只能归为“神话”或“野史”，不被历史所承认。
为了尊重中国人的历史习惯，我认为用神话和野史来讨论夏朝之前的文明是不合适的。
但这个问题可以用考古发现来讨论。虽然在中国人看来，简单的考古发现并不能算是值得信赖的历史。但它们的可信度高于神话和野史。

1. Liangzhu Civilization
Existing in today's Zhejiang Province, China, it appeared 5,000 years ago and lasted for 500 years, 1,000 years earlier than the establishment of the xia Dynasty.
Archaeologists have discovered large-scale urban ruins here, tens of thousands of acres of rice fields, granaries with hundreds of thousands of kilograms of rice, huge dams and palace ruins. Countless tombs, jades and pottery.
UNESCO has designated the archaeological finds here as a World Cultural Heritage. After measuring the scale of houses, tombs, and rice fields, archaeologists estimate that tens of thousands of people once lived in and around this city. It was the capital of an ancient country.
But there is not a single word about it in Chinese historical documents.
1. Liangzhu Civilization

良渚文化存在于今天的中国浙江省，它出现于5000年前，持续了500年，比夏朝的建立早了1000年。
考古学家在这里发现了大规模的城市遗址、数万亩稻田、储存数十万公斤稻米的粮仓、巨大的水坝和宫殿遗址。无数的坟墓、玉器和陶器。
联合国教科文组织已将这里的考古发现列为世界文化遗产。在测量了房屋、坟墓和稻田的规模后，考古学家估计这座城市及其周围曾经居住过数万人。它是一个古老国家的首都。
但中国历史文献中对此只字未提。

2. Sanxingdui Civilization
Sichuan Province, which exists in today's China, appeared 4,800 years ago and lasted for 1,400 years. It was 800 years earlier than the establishment of the xia Dynasty, and its existence spanned the xia Dynasty and the Shang Dynasty.
Not only ancient Stone Age ruins were discovered here, but also a large number of relics from the Bronze Age. Huge, complex and exquisite bronzes, ivories, and jades filled the sacrificial pits.
UNESCO has designated the archaeological finds here as a World Cultural Heritage.
However, there is no detailed record of it in Chinese historical documents. There are only some approximate accounts, and they cannot be completely confirmed.
2. Sanxingdui Civilization

位于今天中国的四川省，出现于4800年前，延续了1400年。比夏朝的建立早了800年，其存在跨越了夏朝和商朝。
这里不仅发现了远古石器时代遗址，还发现了大量青铜时代的遗物。祭祀坑中布满了巨大、复杂、精美的青铜器、象牙、玉器。
联合国教科文组织已将这里的考古发现列为世界文化遗产。
但中国历史文献中并无详细记载。只有一些大概的说法，并不能完全证实。

3. Longshan Civilization
There are multiple sites that exist in today's Shandong and Henan provinces of China.
It appeared 5,000 years ago and lasted for 100 years, 1,000 years earlier than the establishment of the xia Dynasty.
A lage number of jades, pottery, architectural and urban ruins have been discovered in multiple sites of the Longshan Civilization. Because of its location and cultural relic style, it has a certain connection with the xia Dynasty. Archaeologists tend to believe that it is the predecessor of the xia Dynasty.
However, there is no record of it in Chinese historical documents, only some vague records, and they cannot be completely confirmed.
In addition, China has also discovered the remains of many ancient civilizations that date back to earlier times, such as the DwenkouCivilization, Yangshao Civilization, Hemudu Civilization, Hongshan Civilization, and Majiayao Civilization. The earliest urban ruins discovered so far date back to about 8,000 years ago.
However, there is no record of these civilizations and their cities in Chinese historical documents. Therefore, they are not regarded as "official history" by Chinese historical circles, but are uniformly classified as: "prehistoric civilization"

3、龙山文明
在今天的中国山东省和河南省存在多个遗址。
它出现于5000年前，持续了100年，比夏朝的建立还早1000年。
多处龙山文明遗址发现了大量玉器、陶器、建筑和城市遗址。因其地理位置和文物风格，与夏朝有着一定的联系。考古学家倾向于认为它是夏朝的前身。
但中国历史文献中并没有对此的记载，只有一些模糊的记载，并不能完全证实。
此外，中国还发现了敦口文明、仰韶文明、河姆渡文明、红山文明、马家窑文明等许多更早时期的古文明遗迹。迄今为止发现的最早的城市遗址可以追溯到大约8000年前。
然而，中国历史文献中并没有这些文明及其城市的记载。因此，它们不被中国史学界视为“正史”，而是统一归类为：“史前文明”

@Yu Gang
The Sanxingdui ruins are less than 5 kilometers from where my parents live. Welcome to Sichuan and Chengdu.

三星堆遗址距离我父母住的地方不到5公里。欢迎来到四川、成都。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

@Rofocal Lux
I don`t understand about the term civilization and culture.
some said that longshan ,liangzhu are culture, and some said are civilization,
what the point that make the difference between them ?

我不明白文明和文化这个词。
有人说龙山、良渚是文化，有人说是文明，
它们有什么区别呢？

@Aya Shawn
In fact, in the rigorous field of history in China
Civilization and culture are strictly divided
Civilization is used to refer to those higher-level social sites that have no historical records.
Culture is used to refer to lower-level social sites
The difference between them lies in three criteria:
1、The emergence of cities
2、The emergence of wealth differentiation
3、The emergence of kingship
Those that meet the three conditions at the same time are called civilization; those that cannot be fully satisfied are called culture.

事实上，在中国严谨的历史领域
文明与文化是严格划分的
文明用来指那些没有历史记录的高级社会场所。
文化用于指代较低级别的社会场所
它们的区别在于三个标准：
1、城市的出现
2、阶级分化的出现
3、王权的出现
同时满足这三个条件的，称为文明；那些不能完全满足的叫做文化。

@@Rofocal Lux
ooh now I understand, thank you so much

哦现在我明白了，非常感谢

@Kent Chang
Just different words/translation. Tribal culture more correct. Civilization ok too as they were large urban dwellings.

只是不同的词/翻译。部落文化更准确。文明也很好，因为它们有大型城市和住宅。

@@Rofocal Lux
thank you

谢谢你

@Michael Foot
Any grouping of people will have a culture of some sort, even the caveman had a culture. In simple terms a civilisation comes about when the populace is able to produce surplus food on farms, to enable other people to focus on other stuff like crafts, trades, buildings, study etc - so towns and cities were created - as not everyone needed to focus on agriculture

任何人群都会有某种文化，甚至穴居人也有文化。简单来说，当民众能够在农场生产剩余食物，让其他人能够专注于手工艺、贸易、建筑、学习等其他事情时，文明就会出现——因此城镇就被创建了——因为不是每个人都需要这样做专注农业

@Goon Hoong Tatt
Then how come Mahenjo Daro and Harappa in the Indus Valley are considered part of Indian history despite the absence of any written records about them?

那么印度河谷的马亨佐达罗和哈拉帕为何在没有任何文字记录的情况下被认为是印度历史的一部分呢？

@Kirigawa Yoshikuni
There's no relation between them and period apart is huge. LMao

它们之间没有任何关系，而且时间间隔很大。要笑死我

@Changyu
If they don't do this and treat this issue as harshly as the Chinese do, India will have too little history

如果他们不这么做，而是像中国人那么苛刻的对待这个问题，印度的历史就太少了

@Shin Chan
Those guys look pure alien

（三星堆）这些家伙看起来纯粹是外星人

@Bod Ssg
Even the xia Dynasty though mentioned has not been proven.
Chinese civilization starts with the Shang, about 3,200 years ago. About the time of the Minoan Civilization.

即使提到的夏朝也没有得到证实。
中华文明始于商代，距今约3200年。大约是米诺斯文明时期。

@Aya Shawn
Whether it is confirmed or not depends on the criteria you use
If according to China's "Three elements" standard, the xia Dynasty did have problems.
1. There is a need for handed down historical documents to accurately record the time and events.
2. Archaeological discoveries, large cities and architectural sites are required
3. It is necessary to find writings in the ruins and prove "I am the XX civilization"
The problem with the xia Dynasty was that the third lix was missing.
But by this standard, Mediterranean and European history before Rome does not exist. There is no such thing as the Minoan civilization.The history of ancient Greece and ancient Egypt is also impossible to confirm.

是否确认取决于您使用的标准
如果按照中国的“三要素”标准，夏朝确实有问题。
1.需要有传世历史文献来准确记录时间和事件。
2.需要考古发现、大城市和建筑遗址
3、需要在废墟中找到文字，证明“我是XX文明”
夏朝的问题就在于缺少了第三个环节。
但按照这个标准，罗马之前的地中海和欧洲历史并不存在。米诺斯文明并不存在，古希腊、古埃及的历史也无法证实。

@Bod Ssg
You were doing well until your last paragraph.

在最后一段之前你都说得很好。

@Changyu
Are there any issues with OP's argument?
Do you think there's some kind of record found in Minoan ruins that proves "My name is Minoan?"
No, not really. The Minoan civilization was also named after a legendary king.
The xia Dynasty is clearly recorded in ancient Chinese historical documents, not only with the name of the country, but also with the names of each king. The credibility of the Minoan civilization was not even as good as that of the xia Dynasty. There is nothing there but ruins. There are some crude symbols, and no one can decipher their meaning.

答主的论述有什么问题吗？
你认为米诺斯文明的遗址中发现了某种记录，证明“我叫米诺斯文明？”
不，并没有，米诺斯文明也是根据传说中一位国王的名字来命名的。
夏朝在中国古代历史文献中有明确的记载，不但有国家的名字，甚至有每一位王的名字。米诺斯文明的可信度连夏朝都不如。那里除了遗址，什么都没有。一些粗糙的符号，也无人能解读他们的意思。

@Kent Chang
Not the same. The facts ancient Egyptians and Minoans AND that prehistoric people lived in present-day China are not in dispute. What is unproven is the claimed ‘dynastic’ nature which requires two pieces of physical evidence. The name of the dynasty (xia) and the name of at least one of its kings that matches the lineage passed down. Neither have been found so far. Miracles do happen like the vase they found to definitively date the Shang Dynasty.

不一样。古埃及人和米诺斯人以及史前人类生活在当今中国的事实是没有争议的。尚未得到证实的是所谓的“王朝”性质，这需要两件物证。王朝名称（夏）以及至少一位与传承血统相匹配的国王的名字。到目前为止，两者都还没有被发现。奇迹确实发生了，就像他们发现的可以确定为商代的花瓶一样。

@Frédéric
So the above cultures listed by OP were not part of Chinese civilization?

那么答主列出的上述文化不属于中华文明吗？

@Aya Shawn
No, in fact judging from the cultural relics found in these sites, they have some connections with the later Shang Dynasty and Zhou Dynasty.
There are many cultural relics that have the same appearance and decoration, or there is an obvious inheritance relationship.
The one on the left is from the Shang Dynasty, and the one on the right is from Sanxingdui
Therefore, there is a high probability that these prehistoric civilizations are also part of the Chinese civilization.

不，其实从这些遗址中发现的文物来看，它们与后来的商周时期有一定的联系。
文物中有不少外观、纹饰相同，或有明显传承关系的文物。
看这个图，左边的是商代，右边的是三星堆的（两个青铜尊，图略）
因此，这些史前文明很有可能也是中华文明的一部分。

@Paki - Killer 9000 (India )
It has not been proven concretely that the Minoans even were a civilization, 3200 years old even…it might have been a cope fake put out by Greeks and later Romans and European we wuzzers to look equal to China in anyiquity

目前还没有具体证明米诺斯人是一个文明，甚至有3200年的历史……这可能是希腊人和后来的罗马人和欧洲人制造的一个骗局，目的是让他们在任何方面都与中国平等。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

@Brian W
Interesting you make it seems like Chinese can only refer to government approved works (official historical documents)

有趣的是，你让中国人看起来只能引用政府批准的作品（官方历史文献）

@Michael Foot
Overtime I’ve read many discussions on how far back Chinese civilisation goes. From an accepted archaeological perspective, Chinese civilisation only goes back about 3500 years, 4000 at a push. There may have been older civilisations, but the same could be said about the rest of the ancient world - but we need accepted archaeological proof before this can be claimed. I’m not sure where the OP gets his information from

随着时间的推移，我已经阅读了许多关于中国文明历史有多久的讨论。从公认的考古学角度来看，中国文明只能追溯到大约3500年前，最多也就是4000年。
可能存在更古老的文明，但对于其他古代世界也是如此——在宣称之前，我们需要公认的考古证据。我不确定答主（原帖作者）从哪里获取他的信息。