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The University of Cologne canceled a guest professorship with the philosophy professor from The New School. In this interview, she speaks about Germany dividing between “Good Jews” and “Bad Jews,” her politicization in the civil rights movement, and her time in an Israeli kibbutz.

科隆大学取消了这位新学院哲学教授的客座教授职位。在这次访谈中，她谈到了德国的“好犹太人”和“坏犹太人”之分、她在民权运动中的政治化经历以及她在以色列基布兹的生活。

Q : You just got fired from a guest professorship at the University of Cologne because you signed the Philosophy for Palestine statement, which condemns Israel’s “unfolding GENOCIDE” and “system of apartheid.” Can you tell us what happened?

问：您刚刚被科隆大学解雇了客座教授职位，因为您签署了“巴勒斯坦哲学”声明，该声明谴责以色列“正在发生的种族灭绝”和“种族隔离制度”。您能告诉我们发生了什么吗？
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

A : I was invited to Cologne last July. I signed the statement in November. Just last week, even though the statement had been live for a long time, I got an email from Professor Andreas Speer telling me the rector had expressed concern. I thought this was very inappropriate. I was invited on the basis of my scholarly work, which has nothing to do with my views on Israel/Palestine. I wrote back to say that there are many different views, and that there is a lot of pain on all sides — including for me as a Jew. But I emphasized there was no disagreement about the importance of free, open, and respectful discussion, as the rector had put it. My lectures have nothing to do with Israel/Palestine. Within 24 hours, I received an email from the rector: Since I was not willing to renounce my views, he had no choice but to cancel the professorship.

答：我是去年7月被邀请到科隆的。在11月签署了声明。就在上周，尽管声明已经发布了很长时间，我还是收到了Andreas Speer教授的一封电子邮件，告诉我校长对此表示了担忧。我认为这非常不合适。我因我的学术工作而被邀请，与我对以色列/巴勒斯坦问题的看法无关。我回信说，我们有很多不同的观点，对各方来说都很痛苦，包括作为犹太人的我。但我强调，对于校长所说的自由、开放和相互尊重的讨论的重要性，大家并无异议。我的讲座与以色列/巴勒斯坦无关。结果还不到24小时，我就收到了校长的电子邮件：由于我不愿意放弃我的观点，他别无选择，只能取消我的教授职位。

Q : You’ve worked at different German universities over the years. Has this ever come up before?

问：多年来，您在不同的德国大学工作过。以前遇到过这种情况吗？

A : Never, but then again, I haven’t been as outspoken as some of my colleagues. The current situation in Gaza is so extreme that I felt I did need to speak out.

答：从来没有，但话说回来，我不像我的一些同事那样直言不讳。可目前加沙的局势已经非常极端，我觉得我确实有必要说些什么出来。

Q : A few months ago it was revealed that a private lecturer at the same university was at a secret Nazi meeting discussing plans to deport millions of people. The university announced a months-long “investigative process” about his status, which has been going on for several months. Was there such a process with you?

问：几个月前，同一所大学（科隆大学）的一名私人讲师被揭露参加了一个秘密纳粹会议，会议讨论了驱逐数百万人的计划。大学宣布对他的身份进行长达数月的“调查”，也确实调查了几个月了。你有被这样调查过吗？
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

A : No, it was just a handful of emails, and all over within 24 hours. They’re saying this professorship was just an “honor” and not an academic appointment. But this is bogus. I was sexted by a group of professors, and if the rector overrides them, he is infringing on academic freedom. It’s also an attack on political freedom. The message it sends to everybody in Germany is: if you express certain views, your job is in danger.

答：没有，只有几封邮件，24小时内就结束了。他们说这个教授职位只是一种“名誉”，而不是学术任命。但这是谎言。我是被一群教授选中的，如果校长推翻了他们的决定，那他就是在侵犯学术自由。这也是对政治自由的侵犯。它向德国的每个公民传达的信息是：如果你表达了某些观点，你的工作就有危险。

Q : Anyone with views to the left of center could be kicked out of the universities — a dream for right-wing politicians. This is why many academics have protested, including from Germany.

问：任何持中间偏左观点的人都该被踢出大学--这是右翼政客的梦想。这就是包括德国许多学者在内的学者们提出抗议的原因。

A : Right. And the sad part is that Germany claims to be taking responsibility for Jewish people because of the Holocaust. But then these measures are directed against — not only, but also — Jewish intellectuals and artists. There’s a very restricted idea in Germany about the “Good Jews” you should be protecting, and the “Bad Jews” you can repress. I would like to say to the German public sphere: We are all Jews, and don’t equate Germany’s responsibility to us with supporting everything the State of Israel does.

答：没错。可悲的是，德国声称会因为当年的大屠杀而对当今的犹太人负责。但这些措施却不仅对犹太知识分子和艺术家负责了，而且还开始针对他们。在德国有一种非常狭隘的观念，即你应该保护的是“好犹太人”，而你可以镇压的是“坏犹太人”。我想对德国公共领域说：我们都是犹太人，不要把德国对我们的负责跟支持以色列所做的一切等同起来。

Q : This is not the first case in recent months. Jewish people like Judith Butler, Masha Gessen, and Candice Breitz have had awards revoked and shows cancelled.

问：这不是最近几个月发生的第一起案件。朱迪斯-巴特勒、玛莎-格森和坎迪斯-布赖茨等犹太人被取消了奖项和演出。（三人均对以色列表达了批评态度）

A : I very much admire them — I’m proud to find myself in their company, even if that wasn’t my intention. We are very inconvenient to people who want to restrict a real, open discussion of what is going on in Palestine. When Jews like us say we have different views about Israel, that’s an inconvenience, and maybe even a threat.

答：我非常钦佩他们--我很自豪能与他们为伍，尽管这并不是我的本意。对于那些想要阻碍真实、公开地讨论巴勒斯坦问题的人来说，我们是很容易造成麻烦的。当像我们这样的犹太人说我们对以色列有不同看法时，这就是一种麻烦，甚至可能是一种威胁。

Q : How did your biography affect your views?

问：您的履历对您的观点有何影响？

A : I come from an assimilated family that was not very religious at all. My grandparents left Europe in the early 20th century, before the rise of fascism. As a junior high school student, I became engaged in the civil rights movement. In those days, Baltimore was a legally segregated city with Jim Crow laws. African Americans could not eat at the same restaurants or swim in the same swimming pools. I gravitated quickly to the desegregation struggle. I had a classic ’68 generation itinerary, from civil rights to the Vietnam war to SDS [Students for a Democratic Society] to feminism, and so on and so forth. I was never particularly involved with Israel.

答：我来自一个完全没有宗教信仰的归化家庭。我的祖父母在20世纪初离开了欧洲，那时法西斯主义还没有兴起。初中时，我参与了民权运动。当时，巴尔的摩是一个法律上实行种族隔离的城市，有《吉姆-克劳法》。非裔美国人不能在同一家餐馆吃饭，也不能在同一个游泳池游泳。我很快就被打破种族隔离的斗争所吸引。我有一个典型的“68一代”行程，从民权到越战，再到SDS（学生争取民主社会组织），再到女权主义，等等等等。我从未特别参与针对以色列的活动。
（译者注：吉姆·克劳法 (Jim Crow laws) 泛指1876年至1965年间美国南部各州以及边境各州对有色人种（主要针对非洲裔美国人，但同时也包含其他族群）实行种族隔离制度的法律。68一代主要指上世纪60年代末欧美各国的学生运动、民权运动的主体，西方主流给的定性是偏左派思潮，这个词基本上也等同于激进。）

A : I spent six months in a kibbutz in the immediate aftermath of the ’67 war. There was a call for volunteers to come and help with the harvest. I thought a kibbutz had something to do with socialism, but I was rather quickly disillusioned, because I encountered an anti-Arab racism that was very similar to the anti-Black racism in the United States. There was an Arab village across the road, and the kibbutz would not allow the Arab children to use the swimming pool. I thought: “Oh my god, this again?”

答：67年战争刚结束时，我在基布兹待了六个月。当时有人号召志愿者来帮助收割。我以为基布兹与社会主义有关，但很快我就幻灭了，因为我遇到了反阿拉伯种族主义，这与美国的反黑人种族主义非常相似。路对面有一个阿拉伯村庄，基布兹不允许阿拉伯儿童使用游泳池。我当时想“天啊，又要来一遍了？”。
（译者注：基布兹是以色列的一种集体社区，过去主要从事农业生产，现在也从事工业和高科技产业。）

A : That was my close encounter with Israel. When I returned to the United States, I threw myself into the panoply of New Left political engagements, and I did not focus on Palestine.

答：这就是我与以色列的亲密接触。回到美国后，我投身于各种新左派政治活动中，并没有关注巴勒斯坦问题。

Q : Both in the United States and in Germany, the governments are giving strong support to Israel, even if the majority of the population is critical. There is a lot of repression at universities against Palestine solidarity — even when it’s coming from Jewish students. Do the two countries feel similar?

问：无论是在美国还是在德国，政府都大力支持以色列，即使大多数民众对此持批评态度。大学里有很多针对声援巴勒斯坦的镇压行动--即使是来自犹太学生的声援。在德美两国的感受相似吗？

A : We face our own forms of McCarthyism here in the United States. But it’s not as severe because we have succeeded in staging more of a public debate. In previous years, the voices of Palestinians and the solidarity movement were swept under the rug. But now they are being heard and we have a more balanced debate. I hope something like that will emerge in Germany as well.

答：在美国，我们也面临着麦卡锡主义。但没有那么严重，因为我们成功地进行了更多的公开辩论。前些年，巴勒斯坦人和声援运动的声音被掩盖了。但现在，他们的声音被听到了，我们有了一场更加平衡的辩论。我希望德国也能出现类似的情况。

Q : Here in the U.S. we have a large and politically active Jewish population — much larger than in Germany. For decades, the most prominent Jewish voices have been straightforwardly pro-Israel. But in recent years, organizations like Jewish Voice for Peace and Not In Our Name have let Jewish people come out as critics of Israeli occupation. Bernie Sanders is the most prominent Jewish politician. He had been a strong supporter of Israel, but he has changed — lots of people are changing. Some people thought he was too slow to call for a permanent ceasefire, but now he has.

问：在美国，我们有大量活跃于政治领域的犹太人--比德国多得多。几十年来，最著名的犹太人一直直截了当地支持以色列。但近年来，“犹太和平之声”和“不以我们的名义”等组织让犹太人站出来批评以色列的占领。伯尼-桑德斯是最著名的犹太政治家。他一直是以色列的坚定支持者，但他变了--很多人也都变了。有些人认为他在呼吁永久停火方面动作得太慢了，但现在他已经做到了。

A : Pro-Israel forces like AIPAC are losing control of the narrative. And now, with the carnage in Gaza, the voices of critical Jews have been amplified. In Germany, in contrast, everybody is talking about Jews, but not with us.

答：支持以色列的力量，如AIPAC（美国以色列公共事务委员会），正在失去对叙事的控制。现在，随着加沙大屠杀的发生，批评犹太人的声音被放大了。在德国，与此相反，每个人都在谈论犹太人，但不是跟我们谈。

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