网帖翻译

1. Schuano
Japan had very little that Europe wanted in the 19th century.
The Americans forcibly opened the country with admiral Matthew Perry, but there was no commodity they wanted in particular.
China was different.
China grew tea.
China was the only place in the world that grew tea in any quantity.

在19世纪，日本几乎没有欧洲想要的东西。
美国人与海军上将马修·佩里强行打开了这个国家，但他们没有特别想要的商品。
中国与众不同。
中国种茶。
中国是世界上唯一种植极大数量茶的地方。

The British wanted tea
The Chinese didn't want anything the British had.
The British paid for the tea with silver.
The British started running out of silver.
The British then formalized the production and sale of opium...

英国人想要茶
中国人不想要英国人拥有的任何东西。
英国人用银买了茶。
英国人开始耗尽白银。
然后英国人正式开始了鸦片的生产和销售。

The British also discovered that tea could be grown in Northeast India.
The Chinese started paying for the opium with silver.
The Chinese tried to ban the trade.
The British said no and fought a war to keep opium legal.
China then had one of the top 3 deadliest wars in world history in the 1850s.

英国人还发现印度东北地区可以种植茶。
中国人开始用白银为鸦片买单。
中国人试图禁止这种贸易。
英国人说不，并为保持鸦片合法而战。
然后，中国招致了1850年代世界历史上三大最致命的战争之一。

The British then fought another war to sell even more opium.
Then Russia took an area the size of France and Germany combined by threatening China when it was involved in the aforementioned wars.
Then there was a war with France where China lost suzerainty over Vietnam.
Then the northwest part of China revolted. (Though the Chinese won this war)

然后，英国人发动了另一场战争，以出售更多的鸦片。
然后，俄罗斯在参与上述战争时威胁中国，占领了中国相当于法国和德国加起来的面积。
然后中国与法国发生战争，中国失去对越南的宗主权。
然后，中国西北地区起义。（不过中国人赢得了这场战争）

Then there was a war with Japan... Which China lost.
Japan had the consolidation before the Meiji restoration.. But it never had foreigners actively trying to destabilise it and take territory.
China was larger, more unstable, and the foreign powers were usually fanning the flames.

然后与日本发生战争……中国输了。
日本在明治维新之前就进行了巩固。但是从来没有外国人积极试图破坏它的稳定并占领其领土。
中国更大，更不稳定，外国大国经常在煽风点火。

2. crazybear_the_druid
Thank you for this concise breakdown of events. I have always been confused by exactly what happened between Europe and China in the 1800s, and you've provided an excellent summary. Much appreciated.

谢谢你对事件的简要介绍。我一直对1800年代欧洲和中国之间发生的确切事情感到困惑，并且你提供了出色的总结。非常感激。

3. TheFalseDimitryi
Not to mention this entire time the Japanese looked across the sea and thought “holy shit we got to make preparations or that will happen to us”

更不用说日本人整天望着大海，想着 “日恁娘，我们必须做好准备，否则这种事情会发生在我们身上”

4. TheEnragedBushman
If you look at the history of the two to understand why Japan was able to adapt quicker than China I think. China had a long history of dominance in Asia and saw no need to adopt these new western ideas. Japan on the other hand had a history of taking Chinese ideas and adapting it into their own culture and society. When Japan (which was not split by multiple clans at the time btw) was forced open by the Americans, they quickly realized how outclassed they were and so decided to modernize in order to defend itself. Japan's history of adapting foreign ideas made it easy for them to take and adapt Western ideas to fit in with Japanese society.

如果你看一下两者的历史，就可以理解为什么日本能比中国更快地适应。中国在亚洲具有悠久的统治历史，无需采用这些西方新思想。另一方面，日本有吸收中国思想并将其适应自己的文化和社会的历史。当日本（当时并没有由多个宗族分裂）被美国人强行开放时，他们很快意识到美国人有多强大，因此决定现代化以保卫自己。日本适应外国思想的历史使他们很容易接受和适应西方思想，以适应日本社会。

5. tomahawk3001
Japan realized how behind they were and sent scholars abroad all over the world to learn and come back. Japan then adapted purposefully to become more westernized and are now as successful if not more so than all western countries

日本意识到了自己的落后，并向世界各地派遣学者学习和回来。然后，日本有目的地进行了调整，以更加西化，如今，与所有西方国家相比，日本取得的成功甚至比他们更大。

6. AztecTwoStep
Slight adjustment:
Japan realized how behind they were and sent scholars abroad all over the world to learn and come back. Japan then adapted purposefully to become more westernized.
They also saw that to achieve proper 'great power' status and have a say on the global stage, they needed to build a colonial empire, like the Westerners. They used their new knowledge and tech to try to conquer a large swatch of Asia and assert themselves as the key regional power. The US bombed the crap out of them. Seeing an emerging new period of tension with the USSR, they realised the strategic value of rebuilding and maintaining a presence in Japan, and so the US reformed and reconstructed the nation into serving as a useful ally and forward base in Asia. The Japanese made the most of the opportunity
and are now as successful if not more so than all western countries

轻微调整一下你的说辞：
“日本意识到了自己的落后，并向世界各地派遣学者学习和回来。然后，日本有目的地进行了调整，以更加西化。”
他们还看到，要获得适当的“大国”地位并在全球舞台上拥有发言权，他们需要像西方人一样建立一个殖民帝国。他们利用自己的新知识和新技术来征服亚洲的一大块地区，并宣称自己是关键的地区力量。美国对他们一顿狂轰滥炸。直达与苏联关系紧张的新时期，他们意识到重建和维持在日本的存在的战略价值，因此美国对日本进行了改革和重建，使其成为亚洲有用的盟友和前进基地。日本人充分利用了这个机会，所以
“如今，与所有西方国家相比，日本取得的成功甚至比他们更大。”

7. PR546
One great difference I would say is decentralization.
Power should never be only measured by resources and military hardware, but also logistic, governing and management.
Japan, for most of her history, never enjoyed a highly centralized government like China. China's education, military, culture, diplomacy, domestic policy, economy etc. were highly dictated or swayed by the dynasties sitting on the throne. While Japan, up until Meiji Era, was highly decentralized. While paying taxing to the central government(Shogun) and sworn for never challenge the governing authority of the Shogun (ultimate loyalty is still the Emperor), these self-ruling domains with their own ruling clans had a lot liberty over education, culture, economy, domestic policy within the boundary of domains. (You can think of this as a confederation with Shogun as the central governing organ and Emperors as the figure head.) In China, when the central government was holding an xenophobic attitude, the local governments had to more or less follow the same mood. While in Japan, even thought the Edo shogun was xenophobic, some local domains had chose to accept and learn from the west. (A great example is the Shimazu clan of Satsuma Domain)

我要说的一个很大的区别是权力下放。
权力绝不仅应该由资源和军事硬件来衡量，还应该由后勤，治理和管理来衡量。
在她的大部分历史中，日本从未有过像中国这样享有高度中央集权的政府。中国的教育，军事，文化，外交，国内政策，经济等都受到统治王朝的高度支配或影响。在明治时代之前的日本高度分散。虽然向中央政府（幕府将军）缴税并且发誓永远不挑战幕府的统治权威（最终忠诚的对象仍然是皇帝），但这些拥有自己统治家族的大名在教育，文化，经济方面享有很大的自由，是其藩内的内部政策。（你可以将其视为以幕府将军为中央统治机构，以天皇为首相的邦联。）在中国，中央政府持仇外态度时，地方政府或多或少都遵循着同样的心情。在日本时，即使江户幕府将军被认为是仇外的，一些当地人还是选择了接受西方并向西方学习。（一个很好的例子是萨摩藩的岛津氏族）

And also while China has always equalizing the State(Dynastic Court) with the Government, Japan has always understood the separation of State(Emperors) and Governments(Shogun families). Westernization and Christianization were put down and censored by the Manchurian Court(Boxer Rebellion). The Court deemed these as defiance of the authority of the Dynasty(State&Government). Meanwhile in Japan, Satsuma Domain and Chōshū Domain chose to revolt against the Edo Shogun(Government) and westernize while proclaiming the loyalty to the Emperor(State).
In China, the Manchurian Court was greatly criticized for it's corruption and lack of the power to reform in the face of Western Challenger. While in Japan, Satsuma and Chōshū were greatly praised for the rebellion against the central government and help Japan to Westernized.
A different attitude was hold by both nations, while China was very anti-western and grudged the "humiliation" brought by the westerners and later Japan, Japan had chose to embrace Western ideas and Western technologies.

而且，尽管中国一向使国家（朝代宫廷）与政府视作一体，日本却始终了解国家（皇帝）与政府（幕府家族）的分离。西方化和基督教化是由满洲朝廷镇压和审查（义和团运动）的。朝廷认为这些是对王朝（国家和政府）权威的蔑视。同时，在日本，萨摩藩和长州藩选择反抗江户幕府并西化，同时宣布忠于天皇。
在中国，满洲朝廷因其腐败和面对西方挑战者而缺乏改革的能力而受到极大的批评。在日本期间，萨摩番和长州藩因反抗中央政府并帮助日本西化而受到赞扬。
两国持不同的态度，而中国非常反西方，并且对西方人和后来日本带来的“屈辱”怀恨在心，日本选择了接受西方思想和西方技术。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

8. Bakanogami
A couple quick corrections first- while China didn't close their borders like Japan did, they didn't have that great trade routes with Europe. The Suez and Panama canals still hadn't been finished, pirates were still a problem, the overland route was very long, and Europe had long had difficulty finding products China wanted to trade for, their only two real big successes being the Spanish selling them silver from south america and the British selling them opium from India. Japan was also not really "split by multiple clans" at the time. Hokkaido was still held by native Ainu tribes and it was a feudal system that had local daimyo warlords that enjoyed a degree of autonomy, but those were united under a central military dictatorship until they reformed into a democracy towards the end of the 1800s.

首先进行几个快速更正-尽管中国没有像日本那样关闭边界，但它们与欧洲的贸易路线并不理想。苏伊士和巴拿马运河还没有完工，海盗仍然是一个问题，陆路漫长，欧洲长期以来一直难以找到中国想交易的产品，他们仅有的两个真正的大成功是西班牙向他们出售来自南美的白银和英国从印度出售的鸦片。当时日本还没有真正“被多个氏族割裂”。北海道仍然由阿伊努人土著部落控制，这是一个具有封建制度的地方大名，享有一定程度的自治权，但这些人在中央军事独裁统治下统一起来，直到1800年代末改革成民主国家。

Part of the reason Japan did better is because China was so well established. Because they were such a big deal, getting access to trade with them was one of the central goals of outside players like the British, so they targeted them first. The Chinese were meanwhile initially quite dismissive, expecting the British to obey the same tribute system that all of China's neighbors did, because they thought China was the center of the world and greater than all other nations. In reality, they were bloated and rife with corruption, piracy, local warlords, and economic problems and they weren't prepared to challenge British naval power.

日本之所以做得更好，部分原因是因为中国的声名太卓著。因为他们是如此重要，所以与他们进行贸易是英国等外部参与者的主要目标之一，因此他们首先瞄准中国。同时，中国人起初对这些人很不屑一顾，期望英国人遵守中国所有邻国的朝贡制度，因为他们认为中国是世界的中心，比其他所有国家都更大。现实是，他们臃肿，充斥着腐败、海盗、地方军阀和经济问题，他们对挑战英国海军力量尚未做好准备。

Meanwhile from Japan's perspective they'd long since shut out foreigners, worrying that if stuff like Christianity took hold loyalty to the pope would threaten the hold of the military dictatorship there. But that came to an end when the US delegation led by Perry forced the country to open itself to trade. There was no avoiding opening their borders to the world anymore. This happened at about the same time that China was getting beat up by the British and western imperial powers were generally trampling all over everywhere.
Just think about it. The big regional power that's always been bigger than Japan, that Japan's never messed with and from whom they absorbed a lot of culture is getting its shit kicked in by the same people who are now knocking on your door. The world is getting divided into Imperial powers and the lesser countries that are subjugated by them. Which side do you want to be on? They wanted to be on the side that was exploiting others, not the side getting exploited.

同时，从日本的角度来看，他们早已将外国人拒之门外，他们担心，如果像基督教这样的东西对万里之遥的教皇保持忠诚，将会威胁那里的军事独裁统治。但是，当佩里率领的美国代表团强迫该国开放贸易时，闭关才结束。他们再也没有避免对世界开放边界。大约在同一时间，中国被英帝国击败，西方帝国大国普遍到处践踏。
思考一下。一个一直比日本强、日本从来都干得不过的、日本还从他们那里吸收了许多文化的地区大国，被别人揍了，而这帮人现在在敲日本的门。世界正在被划分为帝国和被帝国征服的小国。你想站在哪一边？他们想站在剥削他人的一边，而不是被剥削的一边。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

In fact, there was a lot of political turmoil, with the shogunate falling, rebellions, and coup attempts. In the end what they did was make an extremely concerted effort to modernize in a way that most other non-western nations did not. They sent expeditions around the world to research what each country did well, they imported technology and learned to replicate it, they hired experts from western countries to come and teach in their universities, raising a generation of new engineers and leaders. They used the hostility between the UK and Russia to form an alliance with the UK and build a navy.
I should also notice that one major factor in their success at this was that Japan already had a surprisingly good education system when the country was opened. Small temple-based classrooms had been opened across the country during the long peaceful edo period, and Japan boasted one of the higher rates of literacy in the world in the late 19th century.

实际上，日本耶有很多政治动乱，幕府倒台，叛乱和政变企图。最后，他们所做的是以极大的努力去协同，以大多数其他非西方国家所没有的方式进行现代化。他们派遣探险队前往世界各地研究每个国家的出色表现，他们引进了技术并学会了复制技术，并聘请了来自西方国家的专家来他们的大学任教，从而培养了一代新的工程师和领导人。他们利用英俄之间的敌对关系与英国结盟并建立了海军。
我还注意到，其成功的一个主要因素是，日本在开放之时就已经拥有了令人惊讶的良好教育体系。在漫长的和平的江户时代，在全国各地开设了以寺庙为基础的小型教室，日本在19世纪后期成为世界上识字率较高的国家之一。

9. [dexed]
They didn’t, they were just able to invest more money in industry. Japan and the United States before WW2 had the capitalist world’s highest rates of growth, at around 3%. This isn’t fast by today’s standards, but we have to keep in mind that financial institutions and economic theory were far less advanced than they are today, so the allocation of investment was less efficient. Most countries grew at 1% or less. Colonized and semi colonized nations grew at some of the lowest rates.
The centerpiece of Japanese growth was the Zaibatsu corporation. Zaibatsu were formed by merchant clans who generally intermarried into politically influential samurai families after the Meiji restoration. Zaibatsu had their own banks attached to them and government connections to allow for favorable investment conditions. The net debt in the Japanese economy was low compared to the returns of major businesses.

他们没有（比中国更能适应），他们只是能够在工业上投资更多的钱。第二次世界大战之前的日本和美国的资本主义世界增长率最高，约为3％。按照今天的标准，这还算不上快，但是我们必须记住，当时的金融机构和经济理论远没有今天先进，因此投资分配的效率也较低。大多数国家的增长率不超过1％。殖民地和半殖民地国家的增长率更低。
日本增长的核心是财阀公司。财阀由商人宗族组成，这些商人通常在明治维新后与具有政治影响力的武士家庭通婚。财阀拥有自己的银行和政府机构，以提供有利的投资条件。与主要业务的回报相比，日本经济中的净债务较低。

In China, investments went bad for a number of reasons. First, domestic instability and the bloodiest civil war in history greatly disrupted the Qing economy. Next, European competition stifled growth. Finally, China had less inequality and less developed financial institutions than The Zaibatsu, meaning capital was not as concentrated. All these factors ensured that China’s industrialization stagnated.
China was actually aware of European technological superiority in weapons and industry and had its own self strengthening movement that tried in earnest to make things better. However, it failed because it didn’t make sense economically.

在中国，投资失败的原因有很多。首先，国内动荡和历史上最血腥的内战极大地破坏了清朝的经济。接下来，来自欧洲的竞争抑制了增长。最后，中国的不平等程度和金融机构的发达程度低于日本财阀，这意味着资本没有那么集中。所有这些因素确保了中国工业化的停滞。
中国实际上意识到了欧洲在武器和工业上的技术优势，并进行了自己的自我强化运动，以期努力使事情变得更好。但是，它失败了，因为在经济上没有意义。