英国首相约翰逊告诉希腊，英国是帕台农神庙大理石雕的合法所有者
正文翻译
(The Parthenon Marbles, a collection of stone obiects, inscxtions and sculptures, also kmown as the Elgin Marbles, are displayed at the British Museum in London October 16, 2014.)
（2014年10月16日在伦敦大英博物馆展出的帕台农大理石雕，包括许多石制品、碑文和雕塑，也被称为埃尔金大理石雕。）
新闻：
Britain is legitimate owner of Parthenon marbles, UK's Johnson tells Greece
英国首相约翰逊告诉希腊，英国是帕台农神庙大理石雕的合法所有者
英国首相约翰逊告诉希腊，英国是帕台农神庙大理石雕的合法所有者
(The Parthenon Marbles, a collection of stone obiects, inscxtions and sculptures, also kmown as the Elgin Marbles, are displayed at the British Museum in London October 16, 2014.)
（2014年10月16日在伦敦大英博物馆展出的帕台农大理石雕，包括许多石制品、碑文和雕塑，也被称为埃尔金大理石雕。）
新闻：
Britain is the legitimate owner of the Parthenon marbles, British Prime Minister Boris Johnson told a Greek newspaper, rebuffing Greece’s permanent request for the return of the 2,500-year-old sculptures.
英国首相鲍里斯·约翰逊对希腊一家报纸说，英国是帕台农神庙大理石雕像的合法所有者。他拒绝了希腊永久归还这些有2500年历史的雕塑的要求。
英国首相鲍里斯·约翰逊对希腊一家报纸说，英国是帕台农神庙大理石雕像的合法所有者。他拒绝了希腊永久归还这些有2500年历史的雕塑的要求。
Since independence in 1832, Greece has repeatedly called for the repatriation of the treasures - known in Britain as the Elgin Marbles - that British diplomat Lord Elgin removed from the Parthenon temple in Athens in the early 19th century, when Greece was under Ottoman rule.
自1832年独立以来，希腊多次呼吁归还这些宝藏——在英国被称为埃尔金大理石雕塑——这些宝藏是英国外交官埃尔金勋爵在19世纪早期希腊处于奥斯曼帝国统治时期从雅典的帕台农神庙运走的。
自1832年独立以来，希腊多次呼吁归还这些宝藏——在英国被称为埃尔金大理石雕塑——这些宝藏是英国外交官埃尔金勋爵在19世纪早期希腊处于奥斯曼帝国统治时期从雅典的帕台农神庙运走的。
But the British Museum in London has refused to return the sculptures, roughly half of a 160-meter (525-foot) frieze which adorned the 5th century BC monument, saying they were acquired by Elgin under a legal contract with the Ottoman Empire and are part of everyone’s “shared heritage”.
但是位于伦敦的大英博物馆拒绝归还这些雕塑，并说它们是埃尔金根据与奥斯曼帝国的法律合同获得的，是所有人“共同遗产”的一部分。
但是位于伦敦的大英博物馆拒绝归还这些雕塑，并说它们是埃尔金根据与奥斯曼帝国的法律合同获得的，是所有人“共同遗产”的一部分。
In an interview with Ta Nea newspaper released on Friday, Johnson, a former student of the Classics much given to quoting Latin and Greek, reiterated that the British Museum was the legitimate owner of the marbles.
在周五公布的《塔尼亚报》的采访中，曾是古典文学专业学生，喜欢引用拉丁语和希腊语的约翰逊重申大英博物馆是这些大理石雕的合法所有者。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
在周五公布的《塔尼亚报》的采访中，曾是古典文学专业学生，喜欢引用拉丁语和希腊语的约翰逊重申大英博物馆是这些大理石雕的合法所有者。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
He said he understood the feelings of many Greeks about the issue but said Britain had a “firm and long-standing” position about the sculptures. “They were acquired legally by Lord Elgin, in line with the laws that were in force at that time,” he said.
他说，他理解许多希腊人对这个问题的看法，但他表示，英国对这些雕塑有着“坚定和长期”的立场。“它们是埃尔金勋爵合法获得的，符合当时的法律，”他说。
他说，他理解许多希腊人对这个问题的看法，但他表示，英国对这些雕塑有着“坚定和长期”的立场。“它们是埃尔金勋爵合法获得的，符合当时的法律，”他说。
Greece’s conservative government has stepped up pressure for a return of the marbles since it took power in 2019, a campaign it has said would be intensified by Britain’s departure from the European unx.
自2019年上台以来，希腊保守党政府加大了要求英国归还大理石雕塑的压力，并称英国退出欧盟将加剧这场运动。
自2019年上台以来，希腊保守党政府加大了要求英国归还大理石雕塑的压力，并称英国退出欧盟将加剧这场运动。
Culture Minister Lina Mendoni, who has previously referred to Elgin as a “serial thief”, said Johnson appeared to be unaware of recent historical evidence showing the former envoy had not acquired the marbles legitimately.
文化部长莉娜· 蒙多莉之前曾说埃尔金是一个“连环窃贼”，她说约翰逊似乎不知道最近的历史证据表明这位前大使并不是合法获得了这些大理石雕。
文化部长莉娜· 蒙多莉之前曾说埃尔金是一个“连环窃贼”，她说约翰逊似乎不知道最近的历史证据表明这位前大使并不是合法获得了这些大理石雕。
“For Greece, the British Museum does not have legitimate ownership or possession of the Sculptures,” she said in a statement.
她在一份声明中说：“在希腊看来，大英博物馆没有这些雕塑的合法所有权。”
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
她在一份声明中说：“在希腊看来，大英博物馆没有这些雕塑的合法所有权。”
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
In 2019, Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said he would be willing to lend important artefacts to London in return for putting the marbles on display in Athens in 2021, when Greece marks the 200th anniversary of its independence.
2019年，希腊总理基里亚科斯·米佐塔基斯曾表示，他愿意将重要的文物借给伦敦，以换取2021年在雅典展出这些大理石，届时希腊将庆祝独立200周年。
2019年，希腊总理基里亚科斯·米佐塔基斯曾表示，他愿意将重要的文物借给伦敦，以换取2021年在雅典展出这些大理石，届时希腊将庆祝独立200周年。
评论翻译
Voharav United Kingdom
I feel like this specific case just highlights an issue much bigger than the marbles or the British Museum. And ignoring issues such as legal ownership and acquisition (which I don't think should be relevant), the question to ask is simple:
What should be the purpose of modern day museums?
Should they be hubs of collective worldwide history and display artifacts that were discovered all around the world? Or should they be used to display only local history and artifacts that were discovered locally?
Personally I'm undecided, though I imagine it'd be fairer to go with the local option as most of the artifacts that were displaced are now in a handful of European countries.
Either way, I feel like there needs to be some kind of international agreement on the issue (not going to be easy, I know).
我觉得这个具体的案例凸显了一个比大理石雕塑或大英博物馆更大的问题。并且撇开了法律所有权和收购（我不认为这很重要）等问题不谈，我们要问的问题很简单：
现代博物馆的目的应该是什么？
它们是否应该成为世界范围内的历史集散地，并展示在世界各地发现的文物？还是它们应该只用于展示本地的历史和本地发现的文物？
就我个人而言，我还没有决定答案，虽然我认为选择本地的选项会更公平，因为大多数被转移的文物现在都集中在少数几个欧洲国家。
不管怎样，我觉得在这个问题上需要达成某种国际协议（我知道这并不容易）。
I feel like this specific case just highlights an issue much bigger than the marbles or the British Museum. And ignoring issues such as legal ownership and acquisition (which I don't think should be relevant), the question to ask is simple:
What should be the purpose of modern day museums?
Should they be hubs of collective worldwide history and display artifacts that were discovered all around the world? Or should they be used to display only local history and artifacts that were discovered locally?
Personally I'm undecided, though I imagine it'd be fairer to go with the local option as most of the artifacts that were displaced are now in a handful of European countries.
Either way, I feel like there needs to be some kind of international agreement on the issue (not going to be easy, I know).
我觉得这个具体的案例凸显了一个比大理石雕塑或大英博物馆更大的问题。并且撇开了法律所有权和收购（我不认为这很重要）等问题不谈，我们要问的问题很简单：
现代博物馆的目的应该是什么？
它们是否应该成为世界范围内的历史集散地，并展示在世界各地发现的文物？还是它们应该只用于展示本地的历史和本地发现的文物？
就我个人而言，我还没有决定答案，虽然我认为选择本地的选项会更公平，因为大多数被转移的文物现在都集中在少数几个欧洲国家。
不管怎样，我觉得在这个问题上需要达成某种国际协议（我知道这并不容易）。
Rolten The Netherlands
It shouldn't be that clear cut. I think the Rijksmuseum has a number of items we gained through war. One is an artwork that was part of a British ship we captured, and if I'm bit mistaken they also have Napoleon's pistols.
Not local, yet not exactly rightfully France's or England's either.
这个问题不应该这么泾渭分明。我认为荷兰国立博物馆也藏有一些我们当年通过战争得到的藏品。其中一个是我们俘获的一艘英国船上的艺术品，如果我没记错的话，他们还有拿破仑的手枪。
虽然不是我们本地的，但也不算法国或英国的。
It shouldn't be that clear cut. I think the Rijksmuseum has a number of items we gained through war. One is an artwork that was part of a British ship we captured, and if I'm bit mistaken they also have Napoleon's pistols.
Not local, yet not exactly rightfully France's or England's either.
这个问题不应该这么泾渭分明。我认为荷兰国立博物馆也藏有一些我们当年通过战争得到的藏品。其中一个是我们俘获的一艘英国船上的艺术品，如果我没记错的话，他们还有拿破仑的手枪。
虽然不是我们本地的，但也不算法国或英国的。
voharav United Kingdom
That's a fair enough opinion. The status quo of decisions being made about individual artifacts may still be the best option. I suppose what I was thinking about was a definitive solution to try and put an end to debates like this.
这个观点很合理。觉定对单个藏品维持现状可能仍然是最好的选择。我想我在思考的是一个最终的解决方案来结束这样的争论。
That's a fair enough opinion. The status quo of decisions being made about individual artifacts may still be the best option. I suppose what I was thinking about was a definitive solution to try and put an end to debates like this.
这个观点很合理。觉定对单个藏品维持现状可能仍然是最好的选择。我想我在思考的是一个最终的解决方案来结束这样的争论。
Oxygenisplantpoo Finland
I feel like the only agreement to be made here is "if you'll allow it we'll display them and take care of them, but if you want them back then here you go."
I don't see any other reasonable course of action here.
我觉得这里唯一能达成的协议就是“如果你同意，我们会展示并照顾它们，但如果你想要它们回去，那就换给你吧”
我看不出还有其他合理的办法。
I feel like the only agreement to be made here is "if you'll allow it we'll display them and take care of them, but if you want them back then here you go."
I don't see any other reasonable course of action here.
我觉得这里唯一能达成的协议就是“如果你同意，我们会展示并照顾它们，但如果你想要它们回去，那就换给你吧”
我看不出还有其他合理的办法。
voharav United Kingdom
Perhaps I should've made it more clear, but I was talking about the issue of displaced artefacts in general, and not specifically the Parthenon Marbles.
Just as a hypothetical (as difficult as it may be to achieve in reality) if all countries could agree that all historical artefacts should be returned to the closest place of known origin, then it would settle debates like this.
Alternatively it could be decided that museums are places that display artefacts which originate from many different places around the world. In which case, there'd be no requirement to return the marbles.
Ultimately I think there needs to be some kind of international agreement about what kind of purpose museums should have.
也许我应该说得更清楚些，但我说的是一般的文物转移问题，而不是特别指帕台农神庙的大理石雕像。
如果所有的国家都同意将所有的历史文物归还到已知的最近的产地——这只是一个假设（在现实中可能很难实现）——那么它将解决这样的争论。
或者也可以认为博物馆是展示来自世界各地的文物的地方。在这种情况下，就不需要归还大理石像了。
最终，我认为博物馆应该有什么样的目的，需要有某种国际协议。
Perhaps I should've made it more clear, but I was talking about the issue of displaced artefacts in general, and not specifically the Parthenon Marbles.
Just as a hypothetical (as difficult as it may be to achieve in reality) if all countries could agree that all historical artefacts should be returned to the closest place of known origin, then it would settle debates like this.
Alternatively it could be decided that museums are places that display artefacts which originate from many different places around the world. In which case, there'd be no requirement to return the marbles.
Ultimately I think there needs to be some kind of international agreement about what kind of purpose museums should have.
也许我应该说得更清楚些，但我说的是一般的文物转移问题，而不是特别指帕台农神庙的大理石雕像。
如果所有的国家都同意将所有的历史文物归还到已知的最近的产地——这只是一个假设（在现实中可能很难实现）——那么它将解决这样的争论。
或者也可以认为博物馆是展示来自世界各地的文物的地方。在这种情况下，就不需要归还大理石像了。
最终，我认为博物馆应该有什么样的目的，需要有某种国际协议。
Oxygenisplantpoo Finland
Just as a hypothetical (as difficult as it may be to achieve in reality) if all countries could agree that all historical artefacts should be returned to the closest place of known origin, then it would settle debates like this.
I see no problem here, nor a reason why an alternative should be attempted.
And we all know international agreements are always courtesy. Which is something UK has a tremendous lack of in this issue. I don't see why we should have an "all countries agreement" when UK has already refused.
“如果所有的国家都同意将所有的历史文物归还到已知的最近的产地——这只是一个假设（在现实中可能很难实现）——那么它将解决这样的争论”
我看不出有什么问题，也没有理由去尝试另一种选择。
我们都知道国际协议总是礼貌的。而这正是英国在这个问题上所缺乏的。我不明白为什么我们应该有一个“所有国家协议”，英国已经拒绝了。
Just as a hypothetical (as difficult as it may be to achieve in reality) if all countries could agree that all historical artefacts should be returned to the closest place of known origin, then it would settle debates like this.
I see no problem here, nor a reason why an alternative should be attempted.
And we all know international agreements are always courtesy. Which is something UK has a tremendous lack of in this issue. I don't see why we should have an "all countries agreement" when UK has already refused.
“如果所有的国家都同意将所有的历史文物归还到已知的最近的产地——这只是一个假设（在现实中可能很难实现）——那么它将解决这样的争论”
我看不出有什么问题，也没有理由去尝试另一种选择。
我们都知道国际协议总是礼貌的。而这正是英国在这个问题上所缺乏的。我不明白为什么我们应该有一个“所有国家协议”，英国已经拒绝了。
GreekCavalier Greece
How hard is it to just do the moral thing? Like what is holding the UK goverment back from doing this nice gesture? It's not like the British people would care and BoJo will drop in the polls. I doubt anyone would care for more than a day since the announcement either way. Will the museum go bankrupt?
做讲道德的事有多难？比如是什么阻碍了英国政府做出这种友好的姿态？英国人不会在乎的，约翰逊的支持率也不会下降。不管怎么讲，我怀疑没有人会在意这个消息超过一天。博物馆会破产吗？
How hard is it to just do the moral thing? Like what is holding the UK goverment back from doing this nice gesture? It's not like the British people would care and BoJo will drop in the polls. I doubt anyone would care for more than a day since the announcement either way. Will the museum go bankrupt?
做讲道德的事有多难？比如是什么阻碍了英国政府做出这种友好的姿态？英国人不会在乎的，约翰逊的支持率也不会下降。不管怎么讲，我怀疑没有人会在意这个消息超过一天。博物馆会破产吗？
raspberry_smoothie Ireland
They are worried that they will have to give everything in the British Museum back to their rightful owners. I don't think this is simply a fuck you to Greece, it's more of a fuck you to the entire world.
因为他们担心他们将不得不把大英博物馆的一切藏品物归原主。我不认为这只是对希腊的“qnmd”，更像是对全世界的“qnmd”
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
They are worried that they will have to give everything in the British Museum back to their rightful owners. I don't think this is simply a fuck you to Greece, it's more of a fuck you to the entire world.
因为他们担心他们将不得不把大英博物馆的一切藏品物归原主。我不认为这只是对希腊的“qnmd”，更像是对全世界的“qnmd”
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
untergeher_muc Bavaria
Tbf, we have here in Munich an incredible collection of Ancient Greek statues, cause Bavaria and Greece have been very connected. We even have a incredible beautiful museum items to display them.
But the thing is - the display in the museums are all fakes and the real things are in a very secret place in a nuclear bunker.
Why on earth shouldn’t we give Greece all the things back when everything we are seeing are already fakes?
说实话，我们在慕尼黑有一个令人难以置信的古希腊雕像收藏，因为巴伐利亚和希腊是紧密相连的。我们甚至有一个非常漂亮的博物馆展品来展示它们。
但问题是，博物馆里的展品都是赝品，真品都藏在核掩体的一个非常秘密的地方。
既然当我们看到的一切都是赝品的时候，我们为什么不把所有的真藏品都还给希腊呢？
Tbf, we have here in Munich an incredible collection of Ancient Greek statues, cause Bavaria and Greece have been very connected. We even have a incredible beautiful museum items to display them.
But the thing is - the display in the museums are all fakes and the real things are in a very secret place in a nuclear bunker.
Why on earth shouldn’t we give Greece all the things back when everything we are seeing are already fakes?
说实话，我们在慕尼黑有一个令人难以置信的古希腊雕像收藏，因为巴伐利亚和希腊是紧密相连的。我们甚至有一个非常漂亮的博物馆展品来展示它们。
但问题是，博物馆里的展品都是赝品，真品都藏在核掩体的一个非常秘密的地方。
既然当我们看到的一切都是赝品的时候，我们为什么不把所有的真藏品都还给希腊呢？
Jonstiniho89 United Kingdom
If you think this is a “fuck you” to the world then you’re incredibly naive and probably have very little idea about what you’re talking about ...
如果你认为这是对世界的一种“qnmd”，那么你就太天真了，可能根本不知道自己在说什么……
If you think this is a “fuck you” to the world then you’re incredibly naive and probably have very little idea about what you’re talking about ...
如果你认为这是对世界的一种“qnmd”，那么你就太天真了，可能根本不知道自己在说什么……
FetusTechnician
How are modern Greeks the rightful owners of 2000 year old marble statues exactly? Are modern day Egyptians the 'rightful owners' of 4000 year old Ancient Egyptian artifacts?
现代希腊人凭什么能合法拥有2000年前的大理石雕像呢？现代埃及人是4000年古埃及文物的“合法拥有者”吗？
How are modern Greeks the rightful owners of 2000 year old marble statues exactly? Are modern day Egyptians the 'rightful owners' of 4000 year old Ancient Egyptian artifacts?
现代希腊人凭什么能合法拥有2000年前的大理石雕像呢？现代埃及人是4000年古埃及文物的“合法拥有者”吗？
IngloriousTom France
I may have missed it, but why do Britain get a say in where a piece of art should belong already?
(And France also, yes, I see you coming)
可能是我想歪了，但凭什么由英国来决定一件艺术品应该归属何处？
（还有法国，是的，我看到你正在赶来）
I may have missed it, but why do Britain get a say in where a piece of art should belong already?
(And France also, yes, I see you coming)
可能是我想歪了，但凭什么由英国来决定一件艺术品应该归属何处？
（还有法国，是的，我看到你正在赶来）
raspberry_smoothie Ireland
Every country owns the artifacts within their territory, this isn't even a slightly controversial point... it's in international law. The Greeks own the Parthenon in its entirety in the same way the British own stonehenge in its entirety. Anything of value found within a countries territory is rightfully theirs, oil found in saudi arabia is theirs, diamonds found in south Africa in theirs, antiquities found in greece is theirs. It's delusional to think another country has more of a claim than the country in which an artifact was found.
Yes the Egyptians are the rightful owners of artifacts found on their lands.
每个国家都在自己的领土内拥有这些文物，这一点都没有什么争议。这是国际法规定的。希腊人拥有整个帕台农神庙，就像英国人拥有整个巨石阵一样。在一个国家领土内发现的任何有价值的东西都是他们的，沙特阿拉伯发现的石油也是他们的，南非发现的钻石也是他们的，希腊发现的文物也是他们的。认为另一个国家比发现文物的国家拥有更多的所有权是妄想。
所以是的，埃及人就是在他们的土地上发现的文物的合法拥有者。
Every country owns the artifacts within their territory, this isn't even a slightly controversial point... it's in international law. The Greeks own the Parthenon in its entirety in the same way the British own stonehenge in its entirety. Anything of value found within a countries territory is rightfully theirs, oil found in saudi arabia is theirs, diamonds found in south Africa in theirs, antiquities found in greece is theirs. It's delusional to think another country has more of a claim than the country in which an artifact was found.
Yes the Egyptians are the rightful owners of artifacts found on their lands.
每个国家都在自己的领土内拥有这些文物，这一点都没有什么争议。这是国际法规定的。希腊人拥有整个帕台农神庙，就像英国人拥有整个巨石阵一样。在一个国家领土内发现的任何有价值的东西都是他们的，沙特阿拉伯发现的石油也是他们的，南非发现的钻石也是他们的，希腊发现的文物也是他们的。认为另一个国家比发现文物的国家拥有更多的所有权是妄想。
所以是的，埃及人就是在他们的土地上发现的文物的合法拥有者。
FetusTechnician
Saudi Arabia sells their oil to the rest of the world, South Africans sell diamonds, the Ottomans sold Ancient Greek artifacts, as did Egyptians, 90% of the artifacts in British museums were brought from antique dealers in those respective countries. The modern Greek State has no right to Ancient Greek stuff just because they live in the same area and speak a similar language.
沙特阿拉伯向世界各地出售石油，南非出售钻石，奥斯曼帝国出售古希腊文物，埃及也是如此，英国博物馆90%的文物都是从各自国家的古董商那里买来的。所以现代希腊政府就是没有所有权，仅仅因为他们住在同一个地方并且说着相似的语言并不是理由。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Saudi Arabia sells their oil to the rest of the world, South Africans sell diamonds, the Ottomans sold Ancient Greek artifacts, as did Egyptians, 90% of the artifacts in British museums were brought from antique dealers in those respective countries. The modern Greek State has no right to Ancient Greek stuff just because they live in the same area and speak a similar language.
沙特阿拉伯向世界各地出售石油，南非出售钻石，奥斯曼帝国出售古希腊文物，埃及也是如此，英国博物馆90%的文物都是从各自国家的古董商那里买来的。所以现代希腊政府就是没有所有权，仅仅因为他们住在同一个地方并且说着相似的语言并不是理由。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
raspberry_smoothie Ireland
You are doing some crazy mental gymnastics here? so the Saudi Arabian and South African governments have the right to the geological products of their region? but the greeks don't have the right to the cultural products of their region? because the ottomans pillaged them?
and speak a similar language.
Cop on, Modern Greek is a direct evolution of ancient Greek, as modern English is a direct evolution of old English.
你是在构建疯狂的脑回路吗？所以沙特阿拉伯和南非政府有权拥有他们地区的地质产物，但是希腊人没有权利拥有他们地区的文化产品吗？因为奥斯曼人掠夺了他它们？
“并且说着相似的语言”
其实，现代希腊语是由古希腊语直接演变而来的，正如现代英语是由古英语直接演变而来的。
You are doing some crazy mental gymnastics here? so the Saudi Arabian and South African governments have the right to the geological products of their region? but the greeks don't have the right to the cultural products of their region? because the ottomans pillaged them?
and speak a similar language.
Cop on, Modern Greek is a direct evolution of ancient Greek, as modern English is a direct evolution of old English.
你是在构建疯狂的脑回路吗？所以沙特阿拉伯和南非政府有权拥有他们地区的地质产物，但是希腊人没有权利拥有他们地区的文化产品吗？因为奥斯曼人掠夺了他它们？
“并且说着相似的语言”
其实，现代希腊语是由古希腊语直接演变而来的，正如现代英语是由古英语直接演变而来的。
FetusTechnician
It's not mental gymnastics, your brain is just too smooth to understand.
If Saudi Arabia gets conquered by Iraq, Iraq has every right to sell the oil they find there, if Saudis got independance a few hundred years later it would be silly for them to demand the return of that oil from countries that brought it from Iraq.
The Ottomans has every right to sell the obxt they found in Greece, and modern Greeks have no right to ancient artifacts that have no relation to their modern culture.
这不是脑回路，是你的大脑太简单了，理解不了。
如果沙特阿拉伯被伊拉克占领，那么伊拉克就完全有权利出售他们在那里发现的石油，而如果沙特在几百年后获得独立，他们要求从从伊拉克进口石油的国家归还石油将是愚蠢的。
奥斯曼人完全有权利出售他们在希腊发现的物品，而现代希腊人没有权利去索要与他们的现代文化无关的古代文物。
It's not mental gymnastics, your brain is just too smooth to understand.
If Saudi Arabia gets conquered by Iraq, Iraq has every right to sell the oil they find there, if Saudis got independance a few hundred years later it would be silly for them to demand the return of that oil from countries that brought it from Iraq.
The Ottomans has every right to sell the obxt they found in Greece, and modern Greeks have no right to ancient artifacts that have no relation to their modern culture.
这不是脑回路，是你的大脑太简单了，理解不了。
如果沙特阿拉伯被伊拉克占领，那么伊拉克就完全有权利出售他们在那里发现的石油，而如果沙特在几百年后获得独立，他们要求从从伊拉克进口石油的国家归还石油将是愚蠢的。
奥斯曼人完全有权利出售他们在希腊发现的物品，而现代希腊人没有权利去索要与他们的现代文化无关的古代文物。
Ellinakias
U basically saying “that a person robs another person and then sells the stolen belongings to another person and the last person says that these belongings are legitimate theirs cuz they bought them.”
你基本上是在说“一个人抢劫了另一个人，然后把偷来的东西卖给另一个人，而最后一个人说这些东西是合法的，因为是他花钱买来的。”
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
U basically saying “that a person robs another person and then sells the stolen belongings to another person and the last person says that these belongings are legitimate theirs cuz they bought them.”
你基本上是在说“一个人抢劫了另一个人，然后把偷来的东西卖给另一个人，而最后一个人说这些东西是合法的，因为是他花钱买来的。”
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Three_Trees United Kingdom
Ironically under European Civil Law systems that's exactly what would happen - they protect the right of the buyer to title. Whereas under Common Law the law would protect the right of the original owner to title.
Disclaimer: I do actually think we should give the Marbles back to Greece.
具有讽刺意味的是，在欧洲大陆法律体系下，这正是会发生的事情——它们保护了买家的所有权。而在英美法系下，法律将保护原所有权人的权利。
免责声明：我确实认为我们应该把大理石雕还给希腊。
Ironically under European Civil Law systems that's exactly what would happen - they protect the right of the buyer to title. Whereas under Common Law the law would protect the right of the original owner to title.
Disclaimer: I do actually think we should give the Marbles back to Greece.
具有讽刺意味的是，在欧洲大陆法律体系下，这正是会发生的事情——它们保护了买家的所有权。而在英美法系下，法律将保护原所有权人的权利。
免责声明：我确实认为我们应该把大理石雕还给希腊。
Ellinakias
I think that a guy who is buyin stolen goods and he knows that , is called fence and he is actually a criminal or at least thats what the law is in Greece. Here its about morals Britain should give them back and it should receive a refund but the refund must be given by the ones that benefited out of this , and guess what Turkey will never give money to Britain even if its asked to. Under a government this problem is solved through law enforcement but here there's no government and its beneficial for Britain to keep them so they'll never get back to Greece ,because interests are beyond morals and ideals , this is just another example of democratic governments sacrificing "their" democratic ideals for money. Its sad how people dont understand how things work in this scale and get angry over things like this. Here in greece we value too much our history and people here are not just unpleased by this , they are furious towards Britain and thats just sad how hatred can grow in peoples hearts over things they cant control.
我认为一个明知道是偷来的东西，却还购买的人应该被称为“销赃者”，他实际上也是一个罪犯，至少希腊的法律是这样的。这是道德问题，英国应该把它们还回去，而且应该得到退款，但退款必须由从中受益的人来给，但你猜怎么着，即使英国要求土耳其给钱，土耳其也永远不会给。如果在某国政府之下，这个问题可以通过执法来解决，但这种事情不在政府之下，并且对英国来说留住它们是有好处的，这样它们就永远不会回到希腊，因为利益是超越道德和理想的，这只是民主政府为了钱而牺牲“他们的”民主理想的又一个例子。令人难过的是，人们不理解这种规模的事情是如何运作的，并对这样的事情感到愤怒。在希腊，我们太重视我们的历史了，这里的人们不仅不高兴，他们还对英国感到愤怒。并且令人伤心的是，人们心中的仇恨会因为他们无法控制的事情而继续增长。
I think that a guy who is buyin stolen goods and he knows that , is called fence and he is actually a criminal or at least thats what the law is in Greece. Here its about morals Britain should give them back and it should receive a refund but the refund must be given by the ones that benefited out of this , and guess what Turkey will never give money to Britain even if its asked to. Under a government this problem is solved through law enforcement but here there's no government and its beneficial for Britain to keep them so they'll never get back to Greece ,because interests are beyond morals and ideals , this is just another example of democratic governments sacrificing "their" democratic ideals for money. Its sad how people dont understand how things work in this scale and get angry over things like this. Here in greece we value too much our history and people here are not just unpleased by this , they are furious towards Britain and thats just sad how hatred can grow in peoples hearts over things they cant control.
我认为一个明知道是偷来的东西，却还购买的人应该被称为“销赃者”，他实际上也是一个罪犯，至少希腊的法律是这样的。这是道德问题，英国应该把它们还回去，而且应该得到退款，但退款必须由从中受益的人来给，但你猜怎么着，即使英国要求土耳其给钱，土耳其也永远不会给。如果在某国政府之下，这个问题可以通过执法来解决，但这种事情不在政府之下，并且对英国来说留住它们是有好处的，这样它们就永远不会回到希腊，因为利益是超越道德和理想的，这只是民主政府为了钱而牺牲“他们的”民主理想的又一个例子。令人难过的是，人们不理解这种规模的事情是如何运作的，并对这样的事情感到愤怒。在希腊，我们太重视我们的历史了，这里的人们不仅不高兴，他们还对英国感到愤怒。并且令人伤心的是，人们心中的仇恨会因为他们无法控制的事情而继续增长。
Three_Trees United Kingdom
I was obviously talking about a good faith purchase - knowingly buying stolen goods is a crime everywhere!
I think on the subject of the marbles they will only ever go back if British public opinion on the matter changes and most people support their restitution (which I think it will over the next few decades).
Incidentally I don't think the British Museum or government is particularly profiting monetarily from having the marbles. The stance on keeping them is because they cannot return them without opening the Pandora's box of the prospect of returning everything else which came from abroad.
显然，我说的是诚信购买——明知是偷来的东西还买，在哪都是犯罪！
我认为，只有当英国公众对此事的看法发生变化，而且大多数人支持归还大理石的时候，它们才会被还回去（我认为在未来几十年里会看到）。
顺便说一句，我不认为大英博物馆或政府从拥有这些大理石雕塑中特别能赚到钱。保留它们的立场在于：只要不打开“潘多拉的盒子”，那他们就不用归还来自国外的所有藏品了（不然大英博物馆会被掏空）。
I was obviously talking about a good faith purchase - knowingly buying stolen goods is a crime everywhere!
I think on the subject of the marbles they will only ever go back if British public opinion on the matter changes and most people support their restitution (which I think it will over the next few decades).
Incidentally I don't think the British Museum or government is particularly profiting monetarily from having the marbles. The stance on keeping them is because they cannot return them without opening the Pandora's box of the prospect of returning everything else which came from abroad.
显然，我说的是诚信购买——明知是偷来的东西还买，在哪都是犯罪！
我认为，只有当英国公众对此事的看法发生变化，而且大多数人支持归还大理石的时候，它们才会被还回去（我认为在未来几十年里会看到）。
顺便说一句，我不认为大英博物馆或政府从拥有这些大理石雕塑中特别能赚到钱。保留它们的立场在于：只要不打开“潘多拉的盒子”，那他们就不用归还来自国外的所有藏品了（不然大英博物馆会被掏空）。
rtrs_bastiat United Kingdom
I think it's very ambitious to expect public opinion being enough to do it. Unless the entire world of museums can agree upon a cascade effect of returning stolen goods, handing back stolen goods will cause material damage. I can't see that situation ever arising.
我认为期望公众舆论足以做到这一点太过理想化了。除非全世界的博物馆都同意承担返还赃物的连锁效应，否则返还赃物会造成物质损失。所以我认为这种情况永远不会出现。
I think it's very ambitious to expect public opinion being enough to do it. Unless the entire world of museums can agree upon a cascade effect of returning stolen goods, handing back stolen goods will cause material damage. I can't see that situation ever arising.
我认为期望公众舆论足以做到这一点太过理想化了。除非全世界的博物馆都同意承担返还赃物的连锁效应，否则返还赃物会造成物质损失。所以我认为这种情况永远不会出现。
Zhukov-74 The Netherlands
I do hope Greece can have the statue back one day.
1 year ago i went to the Rijksmuseum in The Netherlands to finally see our most famous painting “The Night Watch” and it was absolutely gorgeous words cannot describe how it feels to finale see it with your own eyes. And when talking about these statues i can barely imagine if for example a piece of “The Night Watch” would have been cut out and sent to some other museum in another country.
The Statue should be returned to Greece.
我真的希望有一天希腊能重新拥有这些雕像。
一年前，我去了荷兰国立博物馆，终于看到了我们最著名的画作《守夜人》，那是绝对华丽的，无法用言语来形容亲眼看到它的感觉。当谈到这些雕像的时候，我很难想象，就像，《守夜人》的一部分被剪下来，然后送到另一个国家的其他博物馆。
雕像就应该归还给希腊。
I do hope Greece can have the statue back one day.
1 year ago i went to the Rijksmuseum in The Netherlands to finally see our most famous painting “The Night Watch” and it was absolutely gorgeous words cannot describe how it feels to finale see it with your own eyes. And when talking about these statues i can barely imagine if for example a piece of “The Night Watch” would have been cut out and sent to some other museum in another country.
The Statue should be returned to Greece.
我真的希望有一天希腊能重新拥有这些雕像。
一年前，我去了荷兰国立博物馆，终于看到了我们最著名的画作《守夜人》，那是绝对华丽的，无法用言语来形容亲眼看到它的感觉。当谈到这些雕像的时候，我很难想象，就像，《守夜人》的一部分被剪下来，然后送到另一个国家的其他博物馆。
雕像就应该归还给希腊。
4L3X4NDR0S
The question is not if the marbles were bought “legitimately” by the ottomans, but whether or not the ottomans had any right to sell them in the first place.
I’m sure everyone was frustrated when ISIS demolished a couple of ancient temples, but taken the British stance to its logical extent, ISIS had every right to do whatever they wanted since they occupied the place, right?
问题不在于这些大理石是否被奥斯曼人“合法”购买，而在于奥斯曼人一开始是否有权利出售它们。我敢肯定，当ISIS摧毁了一些古老的寺庙时，每个人都很沮丧，但从英国的逻辑角度来看，ISIS完全有权利做他们想做的任何事情，因为他们占领了这个地方，是不是这个逻辑？
The question is not if the marbles were bought “legitimately” by the ottomans, but whether or not the ottomans had any right to sell them in the first place.
I’m sure everyone was frustrated when ISIS demolished a couple of ancient temples, but taken the British stance to its logical extent, ISIS had every right to do whatever they wanted since they occupied the place, right?
问题不在于这些大理石是否被奥斯曼人“合法”购买，而在于奥斯曼人一开始是否有权利出售它们。我敢肯定，当ISIS摧毁了一些古老的寺庙时，每个人都很沮丧，但从英国的逻辑角度来看，ISIS完全有权利做他们想做的任何事情，因为他们占领了这个地方，是不是这个逻辑？
Rulweylan United Kingdom
If that is indeed the question, then a lot more artefacts than just the marbles need to be on the table.
Perhaps a suitable show of good faith from the EU would be to return the obelisk that sits at the centre of Place de la Concorde to Egypt, to demonstrate their commitment to the idea that the Ottomans couldn't give away historic treasures?
如果这确实是问题所在，那么要摆在桌子上（讨论所有权）的文物会比大理石雕多得多。
或许，欧盟展示诚意的合适方式是将位于协和广场中心的方尖碑归还埃及，以表明他们坚持奥斯曼帝国无权赠送历史宝藏的观点。
If that is indeed the question, then a lot more artefacts than just the marbles need to be on the table.
Perhaps a suitable show of good faith from the EU would be to return the obelisk that sits at the centre of Place de la Concorde to Egypt, to demonstrate their commitment to the idea that the Ottomans couldn't give away historic treasures?
如果这确实是问题所在，那么要摆在桌子上（讨论所有权）的文物会比大理石雕多得多。
或许，欧盟展示诚意的合适方式是将位于协和广场中心的方尖碑归还埃及，以表明他们坚持奥斯曼帝国无权赠送历史宝藏的观点。
4L3X4NDR0S
If Egypt is indeed asking it then it should be so. If Egypt is not asking it, perhaps it should be done as a gesture of goodwill nevertheless. If now Egypt allows it to be displayed wherever it is, and is not asking it back (like so many other Greek statues in other places that Greece isn’t requesting) it’s up to them to let them be.
如果埃及确实要求这样做，那么欧盟就应该这样做。如果埃及没有提出要求，或许它应该作为一种善意的姿态去做。如果现在埃及允许它在任何地方展出，而不要求归还（就像希腊没有要求的其他地方的许多希腊雕像一样），那么将它们放在哪里就取决于欧盟。
If Egypt is indeed asking it then it should be so. If Egypt is not asking it, perhaps it should be done as a gesture of goodwill nevertheless. If now Egypt allows it to be displayed wherever it is, and is not asking it back (like so many other Greek statues in other places that Greece isn’t requesting) it’s up to them to let them be.
如果埃及确实要求这样做，那么欧盟就应该这样做。如果埃及没有提出要求，或许它应该作为一种善意的姿态去做。如果现在埃及允许它在任何地方展出，而不要求归还（就像希腊没有要求的其他地方的许多希腊雕像一样），那么将它们放在哪里就取决于欧盟。
Azlan82 England
Except the Ottomans had been in Greece longer than the USA has even existed to this day. Its not like they had just turned up, more than 10 generations of Greeks had been born under Ottoman rule.
除了奥斯曼人在希腊的时间比美国存在的时间还要长。他们并不是刚刚出现的，十多代希腊人都曾出生在奥斯曼帝国的统治下。
Except the Ottomans had been in Greece longer than the USA has even existed to this day. Its not like they had just turned up, more than 10 generations of Greeks had been born under Ottoman rule.
除了奥斯曼人在希腊的时间比美国存在的时间还要长。他们并不是刚刚出现的，十多代希腊人都曾出生在奥斯曼帝国的统治下。
4L3X4NDR0S
And that proves what? Should the US government sell ancient Mayan or Incan parts of the monuments to another country, if they last long enough?
Is it morally right?
这能证明什么？美国政府是否应该将古玛雅或印加遗迹的部分出售给另一个国家，如果美国能够延续足够长的时间的话？
这在道德上正确吗？
And that proves what? Should the US government sell ancient Mayan or Incan parts of the monuments to another country, if they last long enough?
Is it morally right?
这能证明什么？美国政府是否应该将古玛雅或印加遗迹的部分出售给另一个国家，如果美国能够延续足够长的时间的话？
这在道德上正确吗？
raspberry_smoothie Ireland
The british museum, being the worlds foremost collection of illgotten colonial gains, should return artifacts to their home countries should it be requested of them. Other similar museums should follow suit and also return artifacts to their rightful owners.
大英博物馆作为世界上最重要的非法殖民所得的收藏，如果他们被要求归还文物，那么他们就应该将文物归还本国。其他类似的博物馆也应该效仿，将文物归还给其合法的主人。
The british museum, being the worlds foremost collection of illgotten colonial gains, should return artifacts to their home countries should it be requested of them. Other similar museums should follow suit and also return artifacts to their rightful owners.
大英博物馆作为世界上最重要的非法殖民所得的收藏，如果他们被要求归还文物，那么他们就应该将文物归还本国。其他类似的博物馆也应该效仿，将文物归还给其合法的主人。
DynamoStranraer
I have to say I love looking at the Elgins marbles. Thank God they are in a local museum. In any seriousness, isn't it great that the british museum is the only museum in the world with artefacts from other countries. Love the usual anti-uk agenda of this sub, all UK bad but everyone else are Angel's.... love this, blame the Ottoman empire, we ain't giving shit back to the thieves from the EU
不得不说我喜欢看埃尔金大理石雕塑。谢天谢地，它们在当地的博物馆里。严肃地说，大英博物馆是世界上唯一一家收藏其他国家文物的博物馆，这难道不是很好吗？喜欢这篇文章里的日常反英国的议程——所有英国人都很坏，但其他人都是天使的……喜欢这个，怪奥斯曼帝国吧，我们什么都不会还给欧盟的小偷的
I have to say I love looking at the Elgins marbles. Thank God they are in a local museum. In any seriousness, isn't it great that the british museum is the only museum in the world with artefacts from other countries. Love the usual anti-uk agenda of this sub, all UK bad but everyone else are Angel's.... love this, blame the Ottoman empire, we ain't giving shit back to the thieves from the EU
不得不说我喜欢看埃尔金大理石雕塑。谢天谢地，它们在当地的博物馆里。严肃地说，大英博物馆是世界上唯一一家收藏其他国家文物的博物馆，这难道不是很好吗？喜欢这篇文章里的日常反英国的议程——所有英国人都很坏，但其他人都是天使的……喜欢这个，怪奥斯曼帝国吧，我们什么都不会还给欧盟的小偷的
FilipTheSixth Czech Republic
Don't all national museums have some "stolen" things? Sweedes still have our shit since 17th century and they actually stole them, not bought them, but hey they have it for almost 400 years so whatever, it's theirs now.
难道不是所有的国家博物馆都有一些“被盗”的东西吗？自从17世纪以来，瑞典人仍然拥有我们的东西，他们实际上是偷来的，而不是买的，但是，嘿，他们拥有这些东西已经近400年了，所以不管怎样，现在这些东西就是他们的了。
Don't all national museums have some "stolen" things? Sweedes still have our shit since 17th century and they actually stole them, not bought them, but hey they have it for almost 400 years so whatever, it's theirs now.
难道不是所有的国家博物馆都有一些“被盗”的东西吗？自从17世纪以来，瑞典人仍然拥有我们的东西，他们实际上是偷来的，而不是买的，但是，嘿，他们拥有这些东西已经近400年了，所以不管怎样，现在这些东西就是他们的了。
Golden37
Why in particular are the Parthenon marbles such a wide and outspoken issue?
There are tons of other examples throughout the europeon continent where artifacts should be returned to their cultural heritage site but you don't hear any wide spread support for it.
Take the most famous painting in the world, the mona lisa. Shouldn't there be massive support to return that painting to Italy? It is a massive part of Italian culture and heritage, not so much the french. But nothing.
Just seems like double standards to me, although I do agree If there is precedent for it the Parthenon marbles should be returned.
为什么帕台农神庙的大理石雕塑尤其成了一个广泛而坦率的问题？
在欧洲大陆还有很多其他的例子，文物应该被归还到他们的文化遗产所在地，但你没有听到任何对此放广泛支持。
以世界上最著名的画作《蒙娜丽莎》为例。把那幅画归还意大利不是应该得到大量支持吗？它是意大利文化和遗产的重要组成部分，而不是法国文化。但是任何此类呼声都没有。
我觉得这是双重标准，不过我同意如果有归还先例的话，帕台农神庙的大理石就应该被归还。
Why in particular are the Parthenon marbles such a wide and outspoken issue?
There are tons of other examples throughout the europeon continent where artifacts should be returned to their cultural heritage site but you don't hear any wide spread support for it.
Take the most famous painting in the world, the mona lisa. Shouldn't there be massive support to return that painting to Italy? It is a massive part of Italian culture and heritage, not so much the french. But nothing.
Just seems like double standards to me, although I do agree If there is precedent for it the Parthenon marbles should be returned.
为什么帕台农神庙的大理石雕塑尤其成了一个广泛而坦率的问题？
在欧洲大陆还有很多其他的例子，文物应该被归还到他们的文化遗产所在地，但你没有听到任何对此放广泛支持。
以世界上最著名的画作《蒙娜丽莎》为例。把那幅画归还意大利不是应该得到大量支持吗？它是意大利文化和遗产的重要组成部分，而不是法国文化。但是任何此类呼声都没有。
我觉得这是双重标准，不过我同意如果有归还先例的话，帕台农神庙的大理石就应该被归还。
clainmyn Greece
Greece will never stop asking for the Parthenon marbles, thats typical remind to UK that is a thief as a state. Johnson opinion on the matter is known more than 30 years ago.
希腊永远不会停止索要帕台农神庙大理石雕像，这是对英国的典型提醒：作为一个国家，英国就是一个小偷。约翰逊对此事的看法早在30多年前就为人所知了。
Greece will never stop asking for the Parthenon marbles, thats typical remind to UK that is a thief as a state. Johnson opinion on the matter is known more than 30 years ago.
希腊永远不会停止索要帕台农神庙大理石雕像，这是对英国的典型提醒：作为一个国家，英国就是一个小偷。约翰逊对此事的看法早在30多年前就为人所知了。
VivaciousPie Albion Est Imperare Orbi Universo
If you want them so much then steal them back, easy solution
如果你那么想要，那就把它们再偷回来，简单的解决办法
If you want them so much then steal them back, easy solution
如果你那么想要，那就把它们再偷回来，简单的解决办法
Clainmyn Greece
There is a reason why nobody knows the seller but the buyer. Because they where stolen. Britain is a state of thieves and British museum is a museum of stolen artifacts.
这就是为什么除了买家没人知道卖家的原因。因为它们是被偷来的。英国是盗贼之国，大英博物馆就是一个收藏被盗文物的博物馆。
There is a reason why nobody knows the seller but the buyer. Because they where stolen. Britain is a state of thieves and British museum is a museum of stolen artifacts.
这就是为什么除了买家没人知道卖家的原因。因为它们是被偷来的。英国是盗贼之国，大英博物馆就是一个收藏被盗文物的博物馆。
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