加拿大人提问:生活在跨欧亚国家的各位,你们感觉自己更接近亚洲人还是欧洲人?
2021-03-30 yzy86 19299
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1、I speak russian which kinda makes me feel like a european, but i'm technically asian

(哈萨克斯坦)我说的是俄语,这一点会让我感觉自己是欧洲人,但严格说我算亚洲人

Almaty very much has the feel of a European city, something I don't get from Bishkek, Tashkent, Dushanbe, etc., but do get from Yekaterinberg, Novosibirsk, Irkutsk, and Vladivostok.

(回复)(美)阿拉木图颇有些欧洲城市的感觉,这种感觉,我在比什凯克、塔什干、杜尚别等地是找不到的,但确实能在叶卡捷琳堡、新西伯利亚、伊尔库茨克和符拉迪沃斯托克找到。

2、I live in the European part of Kazakhstan and I'm certainly an Asian. Still, I feel close to Eastern Europe.

(哈萨克斯坦)我生活在哈萨克斯坦的欧洲部分,毫无疑问我是亚洲人。不过,感觉上我还是更亲近东欧。

3、I feel like I have more in common with Balkan and Eastern European countries than I do with Middle Eastern or East Asian ones. I can understand references to Bible or Ancient Greek mythology, but I haven't read a single word of Quran. Even reading Kazakh classical books is challenging because they have lots of references to Arabic/Persian philosophy.

(哈萨克斯坦)我感觉,自己和巴尔干国家以及东欧国家的共同点要多过和中东国家以及东亚国家。那些圣经和古希腊神话里的典故我都能明白,但可兰经我还一个字都没读过呢。就连阅读哈萨克语的古书都很有挑战性,因为其中会提及很多阿拉伯/波斯哲学里的内容。

4、We're not trans-continental at all and most Israelis won't identify as European (although I suspect a sizeable minority would, or at least would identify as an Aspiring European).

(以色列)我们根本就不是跨大洲的存在,而且大部分以色列人不会把自己认定为欧洲人,虽然我怀疑有相当数量的少数人会这样认定,至少也会认定自己是一个有抱负的欧洲人。

But- When faced with the above choice, most Israelis would say the feel more European than Asian. Even though we're not even partially in Europe, funnily enough.

但是在面临上述的选择时,大部分以色列人会说他们感觉自己更像欧洲人而非亚洲人。尽管我们没有一寸土地位于欧洲,这也够搞笑的了。

I guess it stems mostly from the fact that traditionally Israeli was banned from many competitions/organizations in the area (Soccer championships, Olympics Qualification, Basketball Leagues, Music Competitions, UN Security Council Regional Group, etc). So in many aspects, especially culturally, Israel is more related to Europe than to Asia/The Middle East.

我猜这主要是源于这样一个事实:传统上,该地区的很多比赛和组织会禁止以色列参与(足球锦标赛、奥运会资格赛、篮球联赛、音乐比赛、联合国安全理事会的地区组织等等)。所以在很多方面,特别是文化方面,以色列和欧洲的关系更近,而不是亚洲或中东。
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As an Asian, it confused me why you're not part of the Asian Games but you join European tournaments and Eurovision (and sometimes win in them). But then, I looked into your neighbors and some of our Muslim-majority neighbors and I understood why.

(回复)作为亚洲人我是很困惑的,为什么你们不参加亚洲比赛,但却参加了欧锦赛和欧洲歌唱大赛(有时候还会拿冠军)。不过后来,我研究了一下你们的邻国以及我们那些以穆斯林为主体的部分邻国,然后我就明白原因了。

The thing is, as an Israeli, I can say the majority of Israelis, of European descent or not, do identify as Middle Eastern. Just not as Asian. To Israelis, as in the US, “Asianess” is tied to certain racial markers. However, the majority of Jewish Israelis are descended from refugees from the Middle East and North Africa, while the Arab Israelis are just straight up Arab. So really, neither European nor Asian is correct—we’re Middle Eastern. It’s even said in this famous Tel Aviv pride song, where the singers say “welcome to the Middle East”.

(回复)问题在于,作为一个以色列人,我可以说无论有没有欧洲血统,大部分的以色列人其实会认为自己是中东人。绝对不会自视为亚洲人。在以色列人看来(就和美国的情况一样),“亚洲人”是和特定的种族性状联系在一起的。然而,大部分犹太裔以色列人是那些来自中东和北非的难民的后代,而阿拉伯裔以色列人则是如假包换的阿拉伯人。所以,说我们是欧洲人或亚洲人都是不对的,我们是中东人。在那首很有名的特拉维夫骄傲月之歌中,甚至还唱到“欢迎来到中东”。


Well, of course they identify as Middle-eastern. That's where Israel, the Promised Land, the whole point of Zionism is. But at the same time, one thing is where your identity is centred, due to history and religion. Another thing is where the bulk of your cultural customs and norms come from. Huge numbers of Israelis, particularly during the founding period, came from Europe and were for all intents and purposes European. It might not be the identity of their descendants, but the effect will still be that when you look at, say, a Frenchman, and then a Saudi Arab, you will still find more similarities with the former than the latter.

(回复)(丹麦)好吧,他们当然会把自己看成中东人了。那是以色列、应许之地的所在地,也是犹太复国主义的全部意义所在。但同时,由于历史和宗教的原因,有一个问题是你的身份认同是以哪个地方为中心的。另一个问题是你的大部分文化习俗和文化规范是从何而来的。有大量的以色列人来自欧洲,而且曾经是彻头彻尾的欧洲人,尤其是以色列建国时期的那批人。欧洲人可能不是他们后代的身份认同,但这种影响还是在的,比如说当你看向一个法国人,然后再看向一个沙特阿拉伯人,你还是会发现你和前者的相似之处比后者多。
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I’m not denying the influence of European culture at all, however I would say we are definitely a blend of both influences. European-descended people certainly are more culturally European and vice versa for say, Moroccan Jews. But we have been a country long enough to have produced a new flavor. And something that can’t be forgotten, due to our location and the unique threats we face, is the Middle Eastern aspect. I think we are like the Turks in this sense. A Turkish person here said that you can’t really look out Turkish culture without considering both sides. Israeli culture is vastly different than Eastern and Western European culture. We are most like the Greeks, Cyprus, Turkey, etc. But we also have a dichotomy; many places in Israel are far more like Jordan than Napoli, for example. Really depends where.

(回复)(层主)我完全不否认欧洲文化的影响,但是我想说我们是两种影响混合作用的产物,这是毫无疑问的。欧洲后裔在文化上当然会更偏向欧洲,反之亦然,比如说摩洛哥犹太人。但我们这个国家的存在时间已经长到产生了一种新的味道。由于我们的地理位置和所面临的各种独一无二的威胁,我们身上中东的那一面是不可以忘记的。我觉得我们在这个意义上和土耳其人是一样的。这个帖子里有位土耳其人说过:如果没有同时考虑两方面的影响,那你对土耳其文化真正做到心领神会便是不可能的。以色列文化是大异于东欧和西欧文化的。我们最像希腊人、塞浦路斯人、土耳其人等等。但在我们内部也是存在天壤之别的,比如以色列很多地方和约旦的相像程度远超那不勒斯。这个真的是取决于具体的地区。

Even though Jews lived in Europe they were never ever seen as European by Europeans for over 1000 years.
This idea that they are just as European as everyone else is entirely the result of people not wanting them in Israel and changing their mind.

(回复)(德)哪怕曾经生活在欧洲,但一千多年来,欧洲人也从来没有把犹太人看成欧洲人。
“他们像其他所有人一样都是欧洲人”的这种想法,完全是不希望他们留在以色列并且改变了他们想法的人造成的。

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Also Jews from Europe or who've had parents or grandparents who once lived in Europe have become a minority among Jews in Israel.

而且,从欧洲来的犹太人或是父母和祖父母曾生活在欧洲的人在以色列已经成为了少数派。

I believe Israel is part of the UN "Western Europe and others" group too. Because of their neighbours Israel usually associates itself more with Europe (like in Eurovision)

(回复)(瑞典)我还记得,以色列被归到了联合国的“西欧和其他地区”这一组别。因为邻国的关系,以色列和欧洲的交往会更多(比如欧歌赛就是如此)
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5、I'm starting to not even consider the middle east Asia. Our definition of asia is based on the Greeks that said 'yeah asia is just everything east' despite the fact that the middle east and south Asia are geographically and culturally their own continents.

(英)我都慢慢开始不把中东看成是亚洲了。我们对亚洲的定义是基于希腊人的说法:“是啊,亚洲就是和东方有关的一切”,尽管事实是中东和南亚地区在地理上和文化上自成一洲。

I don't think the concept of continents works well as discreet cultural areas at all tbh. Eurasia (and you can even add Africa into the mix) is more like a spectrum than a series of neat boxes as I see it. You have cultural zones that extend and fade into one another, not an X and a Y.

(回复)(英)老实说,我觉得大洲这个概念根本无法归置不起眼的文化地区。在我看来,欧亚大陆(你甚至都可以把非洲加入这坨混合物)更像是一套光谱,而不是一系列规整的箱子组成的。你能看到的是各文化区彼此延伸乃至浑合无迹,并不是X和Y的关系。

Yup, people often think of East Asia when you say "Asia". Who's the most famous Asian of all time? Few would immediately realize that the correct answer is "Jesus".

(回复)(挪)是啊,当你说到“亚洲”时,人们往往会想到东亚。东亚人始终是最出名的亚洲人?只有极少数人会立刻意识到正确的回答是“耶稣”。

6、The big question here is; should israel be allowed into the eurovision song contest, since its technically not in europe?

(瑞典)这里存在一个很大的问题:是否应该允许以色列参加欧歌赛,因为严格说以色列并不在欧洲?

You guys let in Australia, a country literally on the other side of the planet so why not let Israel in?

(回复)你们这些家伙都让澳大利亚参赛了,这个国家完全是在地球的另一边,所以为什么不能让以色列参赛呢?
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Eurovision is technically not a European contest but a contest between (representatives of the national broadcasters of countries that are) active members of the European Broadcasting unx, which covers the European Broadcasting Area which extends to parts of the Middle East and North Africa. Israel is a member. Countries like Lebanon and Libya are technically eligible if they want. Morocco has participated before, incidentially in the only year Israel did not participate...

(回复)严格说,欧歌赛并不是欧洲人的比赛,而是在欧洲广播联盟活跃成员(各国广播公司的代表)之间展开的一场比赛,涵盖了欧洲广播地区,其范围延伸到了中东和北非地区。以色列是其中一个成员。只要想参赛,黎巴嫩和利比亚这样的国家也是有资格参赛的。摩洛哥以前就参加过,那年恰巧是以色列唯一一次缺席…
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All this is before they started inviting Australia which broke the traditional rules, but that was initially supposed to be a special case given they've broadcast Eurovision for decades.

所有这些都发生于他们开始邀请澳大利亚之前,而这破坏了传统规则,但这在当初本该是一个特例,因为他们转播欧歌赛已经几十年了。

7、I don't necessarily feel that I belong to one category or the other, but if I had to choose one, I'd say I feel 85% European. My family is from Bandirma (map lix), which we visit often, and I grew up in a suburb of Istanbul about 30 km east of the city center - so, in very technical terms all of this is in Asia, if barely. To be honest, and I know this may annoy some people, when I visit Greece or the Balkans I don't feel much out of place, it feels mostly similar to home. I've been to almost every country in Europe and lived in 3 of them, and though of course there were certain differences from what I'm used to it was never a struggle to fit in. I haven't been to any Asian countries so far (unless Georgia counts, which, I don't think so?) but I don't think I would personally find it as easy to adjust to living in any of them.

(土耳其)我倒未必会把自己归属到某个特定的类别,但如果一定要让我选一个,那我会说我感觉自己是85%的欧洲人。我的家族来自班德尔玛,我们经常会造访那里,而且我是在距离伊斯坦布尔市中心30公里的郊区长大的,所以严格说,这整片地方都是位于亚洲的,如果勉强可以算的话。老实说,我也知道我这么说可能会惹恼一些人,在我造访希腊或是巴尔干地区时,我并没有感觉自己很格格不入,那里的感觉大都挺接近我的祖国。欧洲每一个国家我差不多都去过,也在其中三个国家生活过,虽然和我熟悉的地方肯定是存在差异的,但融入从来都不困难。到目前为止我还没有去过任何一个亚洲国家(除非格鲁吉亚算的话,我感觉它不算吧?),但我觉得要让我经过调整去任何一个亚洲国家生活,不会像之前那些国家那么容易。

8、Neither but I'm from western part of the country and from what I've gathered it seems like Greece is culturally the closest country even more so than Azerbaijan so if I had to choose, I'd say European.

(土耳其)都不是,但我来自这个国家的西半边,我在那里的发现是,那里感觉上很像希腊,在文化上,希腊是最接近我们的国家,超过了阿塞拜疆,如果一定要我选,我会说我是欧洲人。

I agree. Turkey feels more like balkan-middle east mix depending on where you are.

(回复)(阿塞拜疆)我同意,土耳其感觉上更像巴尔干国家和中东国家的混合,取决于你具体在哪儿。

9、Turkey is a special case. I don't live in Turkey but as a Turk I feel the need to explain us.

土耳其是一个很特别的地区。我并不在土耳其生活,但作为一个土耳其人,我感觉有必要向你们解释一下我们的情况。

Turks are European (Balkan), Asian (Turkic), Anatolian, Caucasian, Middle Eastern (Persian) and Mediterranean.

土耳其人是欧洲人(巴尔干)、亚洲人(突厥人)、安纳托利亚人、高加索人、中东人(波斯人)和地中海人。
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We are not one single thing, we are the embodiment of all of these things mixed together. You just can't classify us as one single entity. So one doesn't feel more European or Asian, one feels everything together.

我们不是一种单一的存在,我们是所有这些元素混合在一起的示现。你绝对不能把我们归到一种单一的实体上。所以,一个土耳其人不会觉得自己更像欧洲人或亚洲人,而是会觉得自己像所有这些人。

To give you an idea, Turkey borders 7 countries with 7 different alphabets (if you count Persian and Azerbaijani as different). So, we are a melting point. Almost whole Europe uses the Latin alphabet, like Turkey, and most of countries doesn't have a neighbour with a different alphabet in Europe, yet we have 7 countries with 7 different.

为了让你们有点概念,土耳其和七个国家接壤,被七套不同的字母表包围(如果你把波斯文和阿塞拜疆文算成两套的话)。所以,我们就是一个熔炉。像土耳其一样,几乎所有的欧洲国家都使用拉丁字母,而大部分欧洲国家并没有使用不同字母表的欧洲邻国,而我们却有使用七套不同字母表的七个邻国。

We share similar vibes like Spanish, French, Italian, Egyptian, Greek etc. people as a Mediterranean country which makes us feel close to them compared to North European countries.

我们在气质上和西班牙人、法国人、意大利人、埃及人、希腊人等人类似,我们是地中海国家,这一点也让我们更亲近这些国家,而非北欧国家。

And we ruled Balkans for so long that we basically share a very similar culture and feel East-European (or they feel like us to be more precise).

而且我们统治巴尔干的时间那么久,所以基本上我们的文化都是非常类似的,感觉上是东欧人(更准确地说,是他们自觉更像我们)

That is our European part.

这是我们的欧洲部分。

On the other hand Anatolia has a unique culture. It was a homeland for many civilizations even before the Greeks and Persians ruled there. Till this day the inner-Anatolia feels different than the other parts of Turkey for a reason. That unique culture lingers on.

另一方面,安纳托利亚有其独特的文化。那里曾是很多文明的故乡,在时间上甚至比希腊人和波斯人统治那里时还早。安纳托利亚内陆的感觉直到今天都不同于土耳其的其他地区,这也是有原因的。那种独特的文化亘古不绝。

On the other side we have the Middle Eastern influence through the Persians and the Islam. Persians influenced Turkish and Turkic culture very much, probably the main influence till this day (Turks influenced anyone else they came in contact with except for Persians who influenced Turks). And Persians are very different to Arabs, don't mix it up. And we ruled Arab lands (Levantine) for also a long time, so there is that.

另一方面,我们也通过波斯人和伊斯兰教受到了中东的影响。波斯人对土耳其人和突厥文化有过深重的影响,也许直到今天都是最主要的影响来源(土耳其人对他们接触过的所有民族都产生过影响,但波斯人除外,是波斯人影响了土耳其人)。而波斯人和阿拉伯人可是差异很大的,可别搞混了。而且我们长久地统治过阿拉伯人的土地(黎凡特地区),就是这样。
(译注:黎凡特地区是历史上一个模糊的地理名称,广义上指的是中东托鲁斯山脉以南、地中海东岸、阿拉伯沙漠以北和上美索不达米亚以西的一大片地区)

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And finally the "umbrella" of everything, Turkic and minorily Caucasian roots. We came from Central Asia and brought that culture with us to Anatolia and mixed there with everyone around us but that stayed our main identity. So we share all of these things, I feel like all of them together. I see an Italian basically as a christinified Turk as we have very similar cultures except for a different religion. I also see myself as Middle Eastern due to various reasons.

最后,我们是所有民族的“保护伞”,是突厥人和少数高加索人的根。我们来自中亚,并把这种文化带到了安纳托利亚,然后在那里与我们周围的所有民族混合,但突厥仍然是我们的主要身份。所以所有这些东西都是我们共有的,我自觉我是所有这些民族。我觉得意大利人基本上就是被基督化的土耳其人,因为我们除了宗教信仰不同外,文化非常相似。出于各种原因,我也自认为是中东人。
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The closest answer you will get is this: I feel "Turkish" more than anything else.

我能得到的最接近真相的答案会是这个:我是“突厥人”的感觉,要远超我是其他任何一种人的感觉。

PS: Most of European languages are classfied as Indo-European. So they share the same root and are branches of that family. Yet Turkish does not belong to that tree, it has its own tree and family. Even though we are neighbors to Indo-European cultures, neighbor to Semitic countries or to Slavic people or once to Chinese people, Turkic languages are on its own and share no roots with anything else. So, that is probably the main reason we see ourselves as "Turkish", it is its own thing as I tried to explain. We harbor all of these mentioned cultures in us under the umbrella of being Turkish.

备注:大部分欧洲语言都被归入了印欧语系。所以它们是同源的,也都是这个语族的分支。尽管我们和印欧文化、闪族人的国家、斯拉夫人比邻而居,一度还和中国人做过邻居,但突厥语是自成一体的,和其他任何一种语言都不同源。所以,这可能是我们自视为“突厥人”的主要原因,正如我试图解释的,它是自成一体的。我们靠着成为突厥人这顶保护伞,为上述的所有文化提供了庇护。

Azerbaijan uses the Latin Alphabet officially which is how you get to 7 neighbouring alphabets. Which is crazy. Only China has them beat.

(回复)阿塞拜疆是官方使用拉丁字母,这样一来,他们就被七种字母包围了。这就很疯狂了。这方面只有中国打败了他们。

Bulgaria: Cyrillic
Greece: Greek
Syria & Iraq: Arabic
Iran: Persian
Azerbaijan: Latin
Armenia: Armenian
Georgia: Georgian

保加利亚:西里尔字母
希腊人:希腊字母
叙利亚和伊拉克:阿拉伯字母
伊朗:波斯字母
阿塞拜疆:拉丁字母
亚美尼亚:亚美尼亚字母
格鲁吉亚:格鲁吉亚字母

10、I was born and raised in the Asian side of Istanbul, on the seaside looking at the historical peninsula directly. I never felt European or Asian in particular. European identity is kinda obscure and made up in the last couple of generations or so anyway.

(在法土耳其人)我在伊斯坦布尔的亚洲部分出生长大,那是在海边,能直接看到这个颇有历史的半岛。我从来没有感觉自己明显偏向欧洲人或亚洲人。欧洲人的身份认同有点晦暗不明,总之是过去几代人炮制出来的。

11、I have always felt European because I have big sympathy for European values. Also I have lived my entire life in Thrace so, more asian than European.
Plus, as one of the commenters pointed out, there is no asian identity like there is for European.

我一直都觉得自己是欧洲人,因为欧洲人的价值观一直都很让我感同身受。而且我这辈子都是在色雷斯度过的,所以亚洲人的部分多过欧洲人的。
此外,正如有位评论者所指出的,亚洲人完全不存在欧洲人那样(分明)的身份认同。

12、I feel european, I hate many turkish traditions and don't like my country except Istanbul, I wish could born in eu.

我感觉我是欧洲人,很多土耳其传统我都挺讨厌,我也不喜欢我的国家(伊斯坦布尔除外),我要是能出生在欧盟国家就好了。

I would love to see the day that a progressive Turkey throws away Erdoğan and joins the EU! :D

(回复)我希望有朝一日,一个进步的土耳其能抛弃埃尔多安并加入欧盟!呵呵

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