网友讨论：打败德国的到底是谁，是美国还是苏联？
正文翻译
Yasmany González, Architect (2005-present)
Russia had been fighting Germany since June 1941 when the Allies invaded France in Normandy in June 1944, 3 years later. The German offensive had crashed in Moscow in 1941. In 1943 they were beaten again in Stalingrad, Field Marshal Friedrich Wilhelm Paulus and his 6th German Army surrendered and this was the beginning of the end.
In July 1943 took place the Battle of Kursk, the greatest battle of tanks in History and where the Germans concentrated the biggest power of fire in the whole Second War and they were beaten again. In early 1944 it was broken the siege of Leningrad. Between June 22, 1944 and August 1944, in the Bagration Operation the Red Army retakes almost all the territory lost in the the German invasion, defeated the Army Group Centre, also isolating the Army Group North from the Army Group South.
自1941年六月起，俄罗斯就一直和德国战斗，1944年6月盟军才诺曼底登陆。1941年德军攻入莫斯科，1943年他们在斯大林格勒被打败，陆军元帅弗里德里希·威廉·保卢斯和他率领的第6军投降，这场战争的结束就从这开始。
1943年7月爆发了库尔斯克战役，这是历史上规模最大的坦克大会战，德国人在这场战役中投入了二战以来最强大的火力，但还是被再次打败了。1944年早期，列宁格勒的围困被解除，1944年六月22日到8月之间，在巴格拉季昂行动中，红军收复了被德军占领的大部分领土，击败了德国中央集团军，还将北方集团军与南方集团军隔离开来。
Yasmany González, Architect (2005-present)
Russia had been fighting Germany since June 1941 when the Allies invaded France in Normandy in June 1944, 3 years later. The German offensive had crashed in Moscow in 1941. In 1943 they were beaten again in Stalingrad, Field Marshal Friedrich Wilhelm Paulus and his 6th German Army surrendered and this was the beginning of the end.
In July 1943 took place the Battle of Kursk, the greatest battle of tanks in History and where the Germans concentrated the biggest power of fire in the whole Second War and they were beaten again. In early 1944 it was broken the siege of Leningrad. Between June 22, 1944 and August 1944, in the Bagration Operation the Red Army retakes almost all the territory lost in the the German invasion, defeated the Army Group Centre, also isolating the Army Group North from the Army Group South.
自1941年六月起，俄罗斯就一直和德国战斗，1944年6月盟军才诺曼底登陆。1941年德军攻入莫斯科，1943年他们在斯大林格勒被打败，陆军元帅弗里德里希·威廉·保卢斯和他率领的第6军投降，这场战争的结束就从这开始。
1943年7月爆发了库尔斯克战役，这是历史上规模最大的坦克大会战，德国人在这场战役中投入了二战以来最强大的火力，但还是被再次打败了。1944年早期，列宁格勒的围困被解除，1944年六月22日到8月之间，在巴格拉季昂行动中，红军收复了被德军占领的大部分领土，击败了德国中央集团军，还将北方集团军与南方集团军隔离开来。
From 1941 and until 1944 the Russian were fighting by their own against the Germans. There was a help by the US Government, of course, in equipments and supplies, but to say that the Red Army was able to stop the attack of the German Wehrmacht and counterattack just thanks to those supplies, is just denying the ability of the Russian Military Industry to not just produce the military equipment the Red Army needed in order to keep its combative disposition, the replacement of all the equipment lost in combat and even to increase the production of war material, in quantity and quality.
从1941年到1944年，俄罗斯独自和德国作战。当然美国政府也提供了装备和物资援助，但要说红军能够抵挡德军的进攻要全部归功于这些物资援助，就等于否定了红军的工业能力，认为他们无法生产所需的军事装备，为了维持战力，红军还替换了战斗中损失的所有装备，甚至提高军事物资的产量，除了确保数量外，还要保证装备的质量。
从1941年到1944年，俄罗斯独自和德国作战。当然美国政府也提供了装备和物资援助，但要说红军能够抵挡德军的进攻要全部归功于这些物资援助，就等于否定了红军的工业能力，认为他们无法生产所需的军事装备，为了维持战力，红军还替换了战斗中损失的所有装备，甚至提高军事物资的产量，除了确保数量外，还要保证装备的质量。
Some people may not know that Churchill asked Stalin to start the offensive to Poland in 1945 as soon as possible so it could ease the pressure of the Germans in the Western Front. When the Red Army finally stormed and took Berlin, the US Army was still in the northern Germany and that is why you can see the flag of Soviet unx in the top of the Reichstag in pictures.
有些人或许不知道1945年丘吉尔要求斯大林发动对波兰的攻势以尽可能减轻盟军在西线的压力。当红军最后发动猛攻占领柏林时，美军还在德国北部，这就是为什么你可以在照片中看到国会大厦顶部的苏联国旗的原因了。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
有些人或许不知道1945年丘吉尔要求斯大林发动对波兰的攻势以尽可能减轻盟军在西线的压力。当红军最后发动猛攻占领柏林时，美军还在德国北部，这就是为什么你可以在照片中看到国会大厦顶部的苏联国旗的原因了。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Other thing some neo historians don't say is that the Eastern Front was the most feared by the German soldiers and that the most skilled German soldiers and Generals, fought in the Eastern Front. In fact, in some recent studies, the Red Army in the Eastern Front defeated 674 divisions (508 of the Wehrmacht and 166 allies of the Wehrmacht). The British and US Armies in North Africa faced from 1941 to 1943 between 9 to 20 divisions; in Italy from 1943 to 1945, between 7 y 26 divisions; and in the Western Front of Europe from 1944 to 1925 between 56 and 75 divisions. An approximate of 73% of the German human loses in the whole war were in the Eastern Front, besides the 70% of the planes, 75% of the tanks and 74% of artillery.
一些新历史学家不会告诉你德国士兵最害怕的就是东线战场，那里聚集了最能征善战的德军士兵和将军。事实上，在最近发布的一些研究中，东线红军击败了674个师（508个属于德国纳粹，166个属于德国的盟军）。1941年到1943年英国和美国在北非面对的只有9到20个师的兵力。1943年到1945年，在意大利，面对7到26个师的兵力，1944到1945年，在欧洲西线战场上，面对56到75个师。整场战争中德国在东线损失了73%的兵力，70%的战机，75%的坦克和74%的火炮。
一些新历史学家不会告诉你德国士兵最害怕的就是东线战场，那里聚集了最能征善战的德军士兵和将军。事实上，在最近发布的一些研究中，东线红军击败了674个师（508个属于德国纳粹，166个属于德国的盟军）。1941年到1943年英国和美国在北非面对的只有9到20个师的兵力。1943年到1945年，在意大利，面对7到26个师的兵力，1944到1945年，在欧洲西线战场上，面对56到75个师。整场战争中德国在东线损失了73%的兵力，70%的战机，75%的坦克和74%的火炮。
And something else, though some people still think in the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as the cause of the rendition of Japan, the real cause was the soviet invasion of Manchuria, which lead the Japanese government's decision to surrender unconditionally.
And though some people try to deny the Russian contribution to the defeat of the fascism, History will never be forgot.
还有虽然一些人仍然认为日本投降的原因在于广岛和长崎的原子弹，但真正的原因在于苏联进军满洲，这才迫使日本政府无条件投降。
尽管有些人试图否认俄罗斯对战胜法西斯所作的贡献，但历史永远不会忘记。
And though some people try to deny the Russian contribution to the defeat of the fascism, History will never be forgot.
还有虽然一些人仍然认为日本投降的原因在于广岛和长崎的原子弹，但真正的原因在于苏联进军满洲，这才迫使日本政府无条件投降。
尽管有些人试图否认俄罗斯对战胜法西斯所作的贡献，但历史永远不会忘记。
评论翻译
Nigel Vos
Only ignorant people deny that the Soviets played a major part in defeating Hitler.
They also forget that the British and French (until May 1940) were at war from 3 September 1939.
The first American air force involvement in Europe was from July 1942 – 2 years 3 months after the war started.
The first American ground troop involvement in the European theatre was in Africa in November 1942 – 3 years and 2 months after the war started.
A bit more humility from the Americans would be welcome.
只有无知的人才会否认苏联在打败希特勒方面所做出的贡献。他们都忘了英国和法国从1939年九月就开始与德国作战了。
美国空军第一次进入欧洲是在1942年7月，也就是战争爆发后的两年三个月。
1942年11月，也就是战争开始后的3年2个月，美国首次在欧洲战场上派出地面部队。
美国人要是可以更加谦虚将会更受欢迎
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Only ignorant people deny that the Soviets played a major part in defeating Hitler.
They also forget that the British and French (until May 1940) were at war from 3 September 1939.
The first American air force involvement in Europe was from July 1942 – 2 years 3 months after the war started.
The first American ground troop involvement in the European theatre was in Africa in November 1942 – 3 years and 2 months after the war started.
A bit more humility from the Americans would be welcome.
只有无知的人才会否认苏联在打败希特勒方面所做出的贡献。他们都忘了英国和法国从1939年九月就开始与德国作战了。
美国空军第一次进入欧洲是在1942年7月，也就是战争爆发后的两年三个月。
1942年11月，也就是战争开始后的3年2个月，美国首次在欧洲战场上派出地面部队。
美国人要是可以更加谦虚将会更受欢迎
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Franz Ibe
Russia did not defeat Nazi Germany alone, it was an allied effort.
俄罗斯不是靠自己打败德国的，这是盟军的共同努力
Russia did not defeat Nazi Germany alone, it was an allied effort.
俄罗斯不是靠自己打败德国的，这是盟军的共同努力
Algis Lepmets
If only they (Soviet unx) had not started the war on the wrong side… When Great Britain was already in a state of war with Germany, Soviet unx annexed part of Poland and the Baltic states as agreed in Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact (Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact). Soviet unx was a murderous regime.
苏联发动了错误的战争，在英国和德国交战的时候，苏联根据《苏德互不侵犯条约》吞并了波兰和波罗的海国家的部分领土。苏联是一个残暴的政权。
If only they (Soviet unx) had not started the war on the wrong side… When Great Britain was already in a state of war with Germany, Soviet unx annexed part of Poland and the Baltic states as agreed in Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact (Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact). Soviet unx was a murderous regime.
苏联发动了错误的战争，在英国和德国交战的时候，苏联根据《苏德互不侵犯条约》吞并了波兰和波罗的海国家的部分领土。苏联是一个残暴的政权。
Anthony de Vries
It would strengthen your case, if you represent the facts honestly.
Britain was in the war since 1939, almost two years *before* the Soviets got attacked. The battle of Britain was the first major defeat for Germany, which happended before Barbarossa.
The USA started combat against the Axis in november 1942, with the invasion in North Africa. The surrender of the Axis forces at Tunis was larger than the one at Stalingrad!
如果你能更加诚实的话，那么你的说辞将会更有说服力。
1939年，也就是苏联遭到攻击的两年前，英国就已经在和德国作战了。对英战争是德国在巴巴罗萨计划前遭到的第一个重大挫败。
1942年11月，美军进入北非，开始与轴心国作战。轴心国军队在突尼斯投降的人数比在斯大林格勒投降的人数还要多!
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
It would strengthen your case, if you represent the facts honestly.
Britain was in the war since 1939, almost two years *before* the Soviets got attacked. The battle of Britain was the first major defeat for Germany, which happended before Barbarossa.
The USA started combat against the Axis in november 1942, with the invasion in North Africa. The surrender of the Axis forces at Tunis was larger than the one at Stalingrad!
如果你能更加诚实的话，那么你的说辞将会更有说服力。
1939年，也就是苏联遭到攻击的两年前，英国就已经在和德国作战了。对英战争是德国在巴巴罗萨计划前遭到的第一个重大挫败。
1942年11月，美军进入北非，开始与轴心国作战。轴心国军队在突尼斯投降的人数比在斯大林格勒投降的人数还要多!
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Yes indeed, the Soviest faced the most German troops, and had the most casualties. They were also supported enormously by the US. Half their trucks were produced by the US, and half their petrol came from them. Logistics is what wins wars, and this aspect should not be ignored.
的确，苏军面对的德国军队数量最多，遭受的伤亡也最多。但他们也得到了美国的大力援助。他们一半的卡车是美国生产的，一半的汽油也来自美国。后勤是赢得战争的关键，这一点不容忽视。
的确，苏军面对的德国军队数量最多，遭受的伤亡也最多。但他们也得到了美国的大力援助。他们一半的卡车是美国生产的，一半的汽油也来自美国。后勤是赢得战争的关键，这一点不容忽视。
The bomber campaign by the Allies against Germany in the end destroyed the Luftwaffe, and meant that the German airforce all but disappeared from the Eastern Front, because it was needed at home. This had huge influence in the battles there.
This battle of the airforces was somethings that takes enormous amount of high tech production capacity, while using relatively few soldiers. But the impact of the airwar is a 100 times larger than the amount of causualties.
So this is simply comparing apples with oranges.
Winning against Germany was a combined effort.
盟军对德国的轰炸最终摧毁了纳粹空军，这意味着德国空军从此消失于东线战场之上，因为德国国内更需要它们。这对东线战场产生了巨大的影响。
这场空战需要大量的高科技生产能力，而派上用场的士兵相对较少。但是空战的影响要比伤亡数字大100倍。
所以这就是在拿苹果比橘子
打赢德国是共同努力的结果
This battle of the airforces was somethings that takes enormous amount of high tech production capacity, while using relatively few soldiers. But the impact of the airwar is a 100 times larger than the amount of causualties.
So this is simply comparing apples with oranges.
Winning against Germany was a combined effort.
盟军对德国的轰炸最终摧毁了纳粹空军，这意味着德国空军从此消失于东线战场之上，因为德国国内更需要它们。这对东线战场产生了巨大的影响。
这场空战需要大量的高科技生产能力，而派上用场的士兵相对较少。但是空战的影响要比伤亡数字大100倍。
所以这就是在拿苹果比橘子
打赢德国是共同努力的结果
Eliseo Nesci
It is also forgotten that the Soviets were allied to the Germans in the first part of the war, and that they split Poland between themselves. If it were not for the Soviet invasion of eastern poland on the 17th of September, the Poles would have held longer against the Germans and inflicted more losses on the Wehrmacht. Indeed, in the first 2 and a half years of the war, the Soviets gave the Germans alot of aid, not only in fighting the Polish resistance, but also in the form of oil, raw materials, and even a German naval base near Murmansk. If the Soviet unx was such a hero, it could have attacked the Germans early on and cut off the time scale of the war. Instead, the Soviets were prepared to benefit as much as possible from their Fascist partners (who maybe were not as far from them in ideology as we are led to believe), and expand its empire over Poland and the Baltic.
人们或许忘了战争一开始苏联曾与德国结盟，还一起瓜分了波兰。如果苏联没有在9月17日进攻波兰东部，那么波兰在对抗德国的过程中就可以坚持的更久，可以让德国付出更大的代价。事实上，在战争的头两年半里，苏联给德国提供了大量的援助，其中包括石油，原材料，甚至在摩尔曼斯克附近还有一个一个德国海军基地。如果苏联真是英雄，就应该早早进攻德国，早点结束战争。但苏联却准备从他们的法西斯伙伴那里获得尽可能多的好处，并将其帝国扩张到波兰和波罗的海。
It is also forgotten that the Soviets were allied to the Germans in the first part of the war, and that they split Poland between themselves. If it were not for the Soviet invasion of eastern poland on the 17th of September, the Poles would have held longer against the Germans and inflicted more losses on the Wehrmacht. Indeed, in the first 2 and a half years of the war, the Soviets gave the Germans alot of aid, not only in fighting the Polish resistance, but also in the form of oil, raw materials, and even a German naval base near Murmansk. If the Soviet unx was such a hero, it could have attacked the Germans early on and cut off the time scale of the war. Instead, the Soviets were prepared to benefit as much as possible from their Fascist partners (who maybe were not as far from them in ideology as we are led to believe), and expand its empire over Poland and the Baltic.
人们或许忘了战争一开始苏联曾与德国结盟，还一起瓜分了波兰。如果苏联没有在9月17日进攻波兰东部，那么波兰在对抗德国的过程中就可以坚持的更久，可以让德国付出更大的代价。事实上，在战争的头两年半里，苏联给德国提供了大量的援助，其中包括石油，原材料，甚至在摩尔曼斯克附近还有一个一个德国海军基地。如果苏联真是英雄，就应该早早进攻德国，早点结束战争。但苏联却准备从他们的法西斯伙伴那里获得尽可能多的好处，并将其帝国扩张到波兰和波罗的海。
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