英国比任何人想象的都更“欧盟化”
正文翻译
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原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Britain is much more European than anybody thought
-Some 5m EU citizens want to stay in the UK
英国比任何人想象的都更“欧盟化”
——大约500万欧盟公民希望留在英国
-Some 5m EU citizens want to stay in the UK
英国比任何人想象的都更“欧盟化”
——大约500万欧盟公民希望留在英国
新闻：
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Shortly after the Brexit vote in June 2016, a group of distraught Europeans gathered in a Bristol pub. They decided on the spot to create an organisation to lobby for eu citizens in Britain. Wanting to convey that group’s weight, they took the then-official estimate of its size, and called their outfit the3million. Now, says Maike Bohn, one of the founders, “we need to rebrand.”
2016年6月英国脱欧公投后不久，一群心烦意乱的欧洲人聚集在布里斯托尔的一家酒吧。他们当场决定成立一个组织，为在英国的欧盟公民游说。为了表达这个团体的分量，他们对当时的官方规模进行了估计，并称他们的团体叫“这300万”（the3million）。如今，该团体创始人之一的迈克·博恩表示，“我们需要重塑品牌。”
2016年6月英国脱欧公投后不久，一群心烦意乱的欧洲人聚集在布里斯托尔的一家酒吧。他们当场决定成立一个组织，为在英国的欧盟公民游说。为了表达这个团体的分量，他们对当时的官方规模进行了估计，并称他们的团体叫“这300万”（the3million）。如今，该团体创始人之一的迈克·博恩表示，“我们需要重塑品牌。”
June 30th was the deadline for citizens of European countries, who used to be able to move freely to and from Britain, to apply for settled status. At the last count 5.6m applications had been received, from about 5m people (some applied more than once, for various reasons). Some nationalities proved far larger than official statisticians had thought. Romanians, the second-biggest European group in Britain after Poles, filed 918,000 applications by the end of March—about twice as many as their estimated population in 2019. Italians, who made 501,000 applications, were also twice as numerous as expected. Charities that work with eu citizens say they are sure there was a surge of applications in June.
6月30日是欧洲国家公民申请定居身份的最后期限，他们过去可以自由出入英国。据最新统计，共收到560万份申请，来自约500万人（由于各种原因，有些人申请了不止一次）。一些国家的申请人口比官方统计学家认为的要多。罗马尼亚人是继波兰人之后在英国的第二大欧洲群体，截至3月底，罗马尼亚人提交了91.8万份申请，约为2019年估计人口的两倍。意大利人递交了50.1万份申请，人数也是预期的两倍。与欧盟公民合作的慈善机构表示，他们确信6月份申请人数激增。
6月30日是欧洲国家公民申请定居身份的最后期限，他们过去可以自由出入英国。据最新统计，共收到560万份申请，来自约500万人（由于各种原因，有些人申请了不止一次）。一些国家的申请人口比官方统计学家认为的要多。罗马尼亚人是继波兰人之后在英国的第二大欧洲群体，截至3月底，罗马尼亚人提交了91.8万份申请，约为2019年估计人口的两倍。意大利人递交了50.1万份申请，人数也是预期的两倍。与欧盟公民合作的慈善机构表示，他们确信6月份申请人数激增。
So huge is the task of processing these applications that some fear disaster. Many European settlers in Britain seem not to have realised that they must apply on behalf of their children: only 15% of applications are for under-18s, which seems low. And whereas some eu countries have given identity cards to British citizens, Britain has recorded people’s status nowhere except on a central database. If a landlord or an employer is unable or unwilling to access it, rights will be lost.
处理这些申请的任务是如此之大，以至于有些人担心会发生灾难。许多在英国的欧洲移民似乎没有意识到他们必须代表他们的孩子申请：只有15%的申请是针对18岁以下的人，这看起来很低。尽管一些欧盟国家已经给英国公民发放了身份证，但英国除了在中央数据库中记录人们的身份之外什么也没有。如果业主或雇主不能或不愿雇用他们，权利就会丧失。
处理这些申请的任务是如此之大，以至于有些人担心会发生灾难。许多在英国的欧洲移民似乎没有意识到他们必须代表他们的孩子申请：只有15%的申请是针对18岁以下的人，这看起来很低。尽管一些欧盟国家已经给英国公民发放了身份证，但英国除了在中央数据库中记录人们的身份之外什么也没有。如果业主或雇主不能或不愿雇用他们，权利就会丧失。
But the inevitable snarl-ups and injustices should not distract completely from what Britain has done. The Home Office, a department known for sloppiness and obduracy, has processed the great majority of applications swiftly and generously. As of May 31st only 2% had been rejected. About half of the successful applicants have been given settled status; the rest, mostly newer arrivals, are “pre-settled” and will be able to upgrade in time. “It has worked, and thank goodness it has worked,” says Alberto Costa, a Conservative mp whose Italian parents went through the process.
但是不可避免的混乱和不公正不应该完全分散英国所做的事情。以马虎和顽固著称的内政部迅速而慷慨地处理了绝大多数的申请。截至5月31日，只有2%被拒绝。约有一半的成功申请人获得定居地位；其他的大部分是新到的，是“预先预定”的，并且可以及时升级。保守党议员阿尔贝托·科斯塔说：“这招奏效了，谢天谢地，奏效了。”他的意大利父母也经历了这一过程。
但是不可避免的混乱和不公正不应该完全分散英国所做的事情。以马虎和顽固著称的内政部迅速而慷慨地处理了绝大多数的申请。截至5月31日，只有2%被拒绝。约有一半的成功申请人获得定居地位；其他的大部分是新到的，是“预先预定”的，并且可以及时升级。保守党议员阿尔贝托·科斯塔说：“这招奏效了，谢天谢地，奏效了。”他的意大利父母也经历了这一过程。
Some of the Europeans who have already been granted settled status left during the coronavirus pandemic and may not return. Britain nonetheless finds itself with many more European settlers than the 3.5m-4.1m the government expected. To put the 5m into context, the censuses in 2011 of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales found 1.5m people of Indian descent, 1.2m people of Pakistani descent and 1.9m black people, not including those of mixed race.
一些已经获得定居身份的欧洲人在大流行期间离开，可能不会回来了。尽管如此，英国发现自己的欧洲移民比政府预计的350万到410万要多得多。把这500万人放在大背景下看，2011年英格兰、北爱尔兰、苏格兰和威尔士的人口普查发现，有150万人是印度血统，120万人是巴基斯坦血统，还有190万人是黑人，这还不包括混血儿。
一些已经获得定居身份的欧洲人在大流行期间离开，可能不会回来了。尽管如此，英国发现自己的欧洲移民比政府预计的350万到410万要多得多。把这500万人放在大背景下看，2011年英格兰、北爱尔兰、苏格兰和威尔士的人口普查发现，有150万人是印度血统，120万人是巴基斯坦血统，还有190万人是黑人，这还不包括混血儿。
For now, Britain’s European settlers are mostly youthful. Overall, 19% of British people are aged 65 or older. By the end of March only 2% of applications for settled status came from Europeans in that age group. But over time the European immigrants and their descendants will come to resemble everyone else. “They will grow old here,” says Catherine Barnard of uk in a Changing Europe, a think-tank.
目前，英国的欧洲移民大多是年轻人。总体而言，英国65岁及以上人口占19%。到3月底，只有2%的定居身份申请来自这个年龄段的欧洲人。但随着时间的推移，欧洲移民及其后代将变得和其他人一样。“他们会在这里变老，”来自英国智囊团“变化中的欧洲”的凯瑟琳·巴纳德说。
目前，英国的欧洲移民大多是年轻人。总体而言，英国65岁及以上人口占19%。到3月底，只有2%的定居身份申请来自这个年龄段的欧洲人。但随着时间的推移，欧洲移民及其后代将变得和其他人一样。“他们会在这里变老，”来自英国智囊团“变化中的欧洲”的凯瑟琳·巴纳德说。
They live everywhere—at least, some do. Immigrants from the eastern European and Baltic countries that joined the eu in 2004 settled across the United Kingdom. Small towns that had barely seen an immigrant before sprouted Lithuanian and Polish stores. By contrast, western and southern Europeans are concentrated in cities, as are the Bulgarians and Romanians who mostly arrived after 2013. Just 19% of the Poles who applied for settled status by the end of March live in London, compared with 34% of Romanians, 46% of Italians and 54% of French applicants.
他们生活在各地——至少有些是这样。2004年加入欧盟的东欧和波罗的海国家的移民在英国各地定居。在立陶宛和波兰商店出现之前，这些小镇几乎没有移民。相比之下，西欧和南欧人主要集中在城市，保加利亚人和罗马尼亚人也是如此，他们大多在2013年之后来到这里。在三月底申请定居身份的波兰人中，只有19%住在伦敦，相比之下，罗马尼亚有34%，意大利有46%，法国有54%。
他们生活在各地——至少有些是这样。2004年加入欧盟的东欧和波罗的海国家的移民在英国各地定居。在立陶宛和波兰商店出现之前，这些小镇几乎没有移民。相比之下，西欧和南欧人主要集中在城市，保加利亚人和罗马尼亚人也是如此，他们大多在2013年之后来到这里。在三月底申请定居身份的波兰人中，只有19%住在伦敦，相比之下，罗马尼亚有34%，意大利有46%，法国有54%。
Most European adults who were living in Britain before the end of 2020 can vote in local elections, and in elections to the Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh parliaments. That gives them some clout. They will gain more if they become citizens. “If even a third become British, it’s really a political force,” says Alexandra Bulat, who came to Britain from Romania and is now a Cambridgeshire county councillor.
大多数在2020年底之前居住在英国的欧洲成年人都可以参加地方选举，以及北爱尔兰、苏格兰和威尔士的议会选举。这给了他们一些影响力。如果他们成为了英国公民，他们将获得更多。亚历山德拉·布拉特从罗马尼亚来到英国，现在是剑桥郡的县议员。
大多数在2020年底之前居住在英国的欧洲成年人都可以参加地方选举，以及北爱尔兰、苏格兰和威尔士的议会选举。这给了他们一些影响力。如果他们成为了英国公民，他们将获得更多。亚历山德拉·布拉特从罗马尼亚来到英国，现在是剑桥郡的县议员。
Whether that happens, and how quickly, is the crucial question for the future of British politics. Until a few years ago European settlers seldom became citizens. They had lots of rights in Britain, and came from rich, stable countries that they did not fear to return to. But the Brexit vote caused a surge in citizenship applications. eu citizens accounted for 34% of applicants in the first quarter of this year, a big increase from just 4% in the first quarter of 2010.
这是否会发生，以及多快发生，是英国政治未来的关键问题。直到几年前，欧洲移民还很少成为公民。他们在英国享有很多权利，而且来自富裕、稳定的国家，他们不怕回到这些国家。但是英国脱欧公投导致了申请公民身份的激增。今年第一季度，欧盟公民占申请人数的34%，比2010年第一季度的4%大幅增长。
这是否会发生，以及多快发生，是英国政治未来的关键问题。直到几年前，欧洲移民还很少成为公民。他们在英国享有很多权利，而且来自富裕、稳定的国家，他们不怕回到这些国家。但是英国脱欧公投导致了申请公民身份的激增。今年第一季度，欧盟公民占申请人数的34%，比2010年第一季度的4%大幅增长。
Applying for British citizenship is expensive, at £1,330 ($1,840) per adult. Some people have been deterred from applying by an obscure requirement about health insurance. And a few European countries, such as Germany and Lithuania, frown on dual citizenship. Nonetheless, many migrants will eventually get round to it, especially if their children grow up in Britain. And the more alarming stories they hear about the bureaucratic mistreatment of Europeans from July 1st, the more they will feel compelled to protect their rights by becoming British.
申请英国公民身份的费用很高，每个成年人需要1330英镑（1840美元）。一些人因为一个关于健康保险的模糊要求而不敢申请。一些欧洲国家，比如德国和立陶宛，反对双重国籍。尽管如此，许多移民最终还是会接受它，尤其是如果他们的孩子在英国长大的话。从7月1日起，他们听到的有关欧洲人受到官僚虐待的令人担忧的故事越多，他们就越觉得有必要通过成为英国人来保护自己的权利。
申请英国公民身份的费用很高，每个成年人需要1330英镑（1840美元）。一些人因为一个关于健康保险的模糊要求而不敢申请。一些欧洲国家，比如德国和立陶宛，反对双重国籍。尽管如此，许多移民最终还是会接受它，尤其是如果他们的孩子在英国长大的话。从7月1日起，他们听到的有关欧洲人受到官僚虐待的令人担忧的故事越多，他们就越觉得有必要通过成为英国人来保护自己的权利。
Strangely, most national politicians are ignoring this enormous pool of potential voters. Hundreds of Labour Party activists have written to their leader, Sir Keir Starmer, calling the party’s near-silence over eu citizens’ rights “inexcusable”—to little effect. Although Mr Costa lobbies tirelessly, the Conservative Party engages even less with eu citizens’ groups than it did a few years ago. “There’s no effort,” says Ms Bohn of the3million.
奇怪的是，大多数国家的政客都忽视了这一庞大的潜在选民群体。数以百计的工党积极分子已经写信给他们的领袖凯依尔·斯塔莫爵士，称工党在欧盟公民权利问题上的近乎沉默是“不可原谅的”，而且收效甚微。尽管科斯塔先生不知疲倦地游说，保守党与欧盟公民团体的接触比几年前更少了。“这300万”的博恩说：“根本没有用。”
奇怪的是，大多数国家的政客都忽视了这一庞大的潜在选民群体。数以百计的工党积极分子已经写信给他们的领袖凯依尔·斯塔莫爵士，称工党在欧盟公民权利问题上的近乎沉默是“不可原谅的”，而且收效甚微。尽管科斯塔先生不知疲倦地游说，保守党与欧盟公民团体的接触比几年前更少了。“这300万”的博恩说：“根本没有用。”
The big exception is the Scottish National Party. Its leaders speak frequently and effusively about eu citizens in Scotland. In early 2020 the Scottish Parliament, which was and is dominated by the snp, proclaimed that it had protected their voting rights. The British government quietly announced on June 17th this year that it would do similarly. unxists might suspect that the snp is trying to attract new voters to the independence cause and draw a cultural dividing line between internationalist Scots and xenophobic little Englanders. They would do better to copy the nationalists by appealing to the five million. Everybody wants to be wanted.
苏格兰民族党是个例外。其领导人经常热情洋溢地谈论苏格兰的欧盟公民。2020年初，由苏格兰民族党主导的苏格兰议会宣布，它保护了苏格兰人的投票权。今年6月17日，英国政府悄然宣布也将采取类似措施。统一主义者可能会怀疑，苏格兰民族党正试图吸引新的选民支持独立事业，并在国际主义者苏格兰人和排外的小英格兰人之间划出一条文化分界线。他们通过仿效民族主义者的做法，吸引这500万人的群体会做得更好。每个人都想被需要。
苏格兰民族党是个例外。其领导人经常热情洋溢地谈论苏格兰的欧盟公民。2020年初，由苏格兰民族党主导的苏格兰议会宣布，它保护了苏格兰人的投票权。今年6月17日，英国政府悄然宣布也将采取类似措施。统一主义者可能会怀疑，苏格兰民族党正试图吸引新的选民支持独立事业，并在国际主义者苏格兰人和排外的小英格兰人之间划出一条文化分界线。他们通过仿效民族主义者的做法，吸引这500万人的群体会做得更好。每个人都想被需要。
评论翻译
WashedUpGamer69
Fucking hell 5 million EU citizens and people still wonder why we Brexit?
Qnmb的500万欧盟公民，人们仍然想知道我们为什么要脱欧？
Fucking hell 5 million EU citizens and people still wonder why we Brexit?
Qnmb的500万欧盟公民，人们仍然想知道我们为什么要脱欧？
kepke78Tuscan in London
What’s the problem with 5 million people working, producing and paying taxes in the UK? So, it’s fine to be Indian, Pakinstani, Jamaican in the UK but not an EU citizen?
Noted.
英国多了500万人工作、生产和纳税，这有什么问题？所以，在英国做一个印度人、巴基斯坦人、牙买加人，但不是欧盟公民，就没有问题了吧？ 明白了。
What’s the problem with 5 million people working, producing and paying taxes in the UK? So, it’s fine to be Indian, Pakinstani, Jamaican in the UK but not an EU citizen?
Noted.
英国多了500万人工作、生产和纳税，这有什么问题？所以，在英国做一个印度人、巴基斯坦人、牙买加人，但不是欧盟公民，就没有问题了吧？ 明白了。
Athlete_Living
They are Commonwealth citizens who play cricket and whose forefathers fought and died for the unx Jack in both world wars?
因为他们是打板球的英联邦公民，他们的祖先在两次世界大战中为英国国旗而战斗和牺牲？
They are Commonwealth citizens who play cricket and whose forefathers fought and died for the unx Jack in both world wars?
因为他们是打板球的英联邦公民，他们的祖先在两次世界大战中为英国国旗而战斗和牺牲？
MyFavouriteAxeUnited Kingdom
What’s the problem with 6 million people working, producing and paying taxes in the UK?
Nothing. But it's not crazy to have an issue with the volume of immigration. I didn't vote Brexit and don't sympathise much with the immigration angle the leavers took, however it's wrong to simply suggest that any and all unrestricted immigration is good and beyond criticism.
What happens if/when Italy goes boom? If the monetary unx collapse, or we get another situation like Greece, but in far more populous and systemically important country, then there will huge numbers of people moving out of the countries who are worst hit, and they will flock to the other countries less affected - historically the UK has been a top destination for disaffected young Italians, Spaniards, Greeks, etc...
So, it’s fine to be Indian, Pakinstani, Jamaican in the UK but not an EU citizen?
This point is beyond asinine and you should be embarrassed for making it. Indians, Pakistanis and Jamaicans have to get visas, they have to jump through hoops to gain the right to live and work in the UK. As such, the Home Office is entirely in control of how many people it lets in from those countries. It's not the same as being in the EU where you have absolutely no power to turn off the intra-EU immigration tap, even if situation has become unsustainable. EU member states are treaty bound to accept immigrants from the rest of the bloc, there is nothing they can do about it or the numbers of people coming/going.
“英国多了500万人工作、生产和纳税，这有什么问题？”
什么问题都没有。但是对于这种规模的移民数量有问题并不疯狂。我没有投票支持英国脱欧，也不太同情脱欧派从移民角度出发的立场，然而，简单地认为任何、所有不受限制的移民都是好的、无可批评的观点是错误的。
假如意大利内爆了怎么办？如果货币联盟崩溃，或者出现像希腊那样的情况，但是是在人口更多，系统重要性更大的国家，那么将会有大量的人离开受影响最严重的国家，他们会涌向其他受影响较小的国家——历史上，英国一直是心怀不满的意大利年轻人、西班牙人、希腊人等的首选目的地……
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
What’s the problem with 6 million people working, producing and paying taxes in the UK?
Nothing. But it's not crazy to have an issue with the volume of immigration. I didn't vote Brexit and don't sympathise much with the immigration angle the leavers took, however it's wrong to simply suggest that any and all unrestricted immigration is good and beyond criticism.
What happens if/when Italy goes boom? If the monetary unx collapse, or we get another situation like Greece, but in far more populous and systemically important country, then there will huge numbers of people moving out of the countries who are worst hit, and they will flock to the other countries less affected - historically the UK has been a top destination for disaffected young Italians, Spaniards, Greeks, etc...
So, it’s fine to be Indian, Pakinstani, Jamaican in the UK but not an EU citizen?
This point is beyond asinine and you should be embarrassed for making it. Indians, Pakistanis and Jamaicans have to get visas, they have to jump through hoops to gain the right to live and work in the UK. As such, the Home Office is entirely in control of how many people it lets in from those countries. It's not the same as being in the EU where you have absolutely no power to turn off the intra-EU immigration tap, even if situation has become unsustainable. EU member states are treaty bound to accept immigrants from the rest of the bloc, there is nothing they can do about it or the numbers of people coming/going.
“英国多了500万人工作、生产和纳税，这有什么问题？”
什么问题都没有。但是对于这种规模的移民数量有问题并不疯狂。我没有投票支持英国脱欧，也不太同情脱欧派从移民角度出发的立场，然而，简单地认为任何、所有不受限制的移民都是好的、无可批评的观点是错误的。
假如意大利内爆了怎么办？如果货币联盟崩溃，或者出现像希腊那样的情况，但是是在人口更多，系统重要性更大的国家，那么将会有大量的人离开受影响最严重的国家，他们会涌向其他受影响较小的国家——历史上，英国一直是心怀不满的意大利年轻人、西班牙人、希腊人等的首选目的地……
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Robi_damian
The thing is the scale of the immigration. Contrary to the Remain narrative of "most immigrants come from outside the EU anyway", EU immigration was drastically underestimated while non-EU migration was overestimated (see lix below). Ultimately, EU immigration was double the non-EU one. You can see this also in the stats on foreign-born mothers, with children born to mums with non-EU roots shrinking in numbers and those born to EU mothers growing instead.
Lastly, again, it is not about who the migrants are and what they pay, but about England's carrying capacity. This is a country of 130.000 sq. km with the population of Italy (likely to surpass Italy soon), 300.000 sq. km.
问题在于移民的规模。与留欧派“反正大多数移民来自欧盟以外”的说法相反，欧盟移民数量被严重低估，而非高估。最终，欧盟移民是非欧盟移民的两倍。在外国出生的母亲的数据中也可以看到这一点，非欧盟血统母亲所生的孩子数量在减少，而欧盟母亲所生的孩子数量在增加。
最后，再次强调，问题不在于移民是谁，他们付多少钱，而在于英国的承载能力。这是一个13万平方公里的国家。人口与意大利一样多（可能很快就会超过意大利），但后者有30万平方公里。
The thing is the scale of the immigration. Contrary to the Remain narrative of "most immigrants come from outside the EU anyway", EU immigration was drastically underestimated while non-EU migration was overestimated (see lix below). Ultimately, EU immigration was double the non-EU one. You can see this also in the stats on foreign-born mothers, with children born to mums with non-EU roots shrinking in numbers and those born to EU mothers growing instead.
Lastly, again, it is not about who the migrants are and what they pay, but about England's carrying capacity. This is a country of 130.000 sq. km with the population of Italy (likely to surpass Italy soon), 300.000 sq. km.
问题在于移民的规模。与留欧派“反正大多数移民来自欧盟以外”的说法相反，欧盟移民数量被严重低估，而非高估。最终，欧盟移民是非欧盟移民的两倍。在外国出生的母亲的数据中也可以看到这一点，非欧盟血统母亲所生的孩子数量在减少，而欧盟母亲所生的孩子数量在增加。
最后，再次强调，问题不在于移民是谁，他们付多少钱，而在于英国的承载能力。这是一个13万平方公里的国家。人口与意大利一样多（可能很快就会超过意大利），但后者有30万平方公里。
kane_uk
This shows how damaging and destabilising Freedom of movement can be when you admit poorer countries into the EU and give their people the right to move freely into richer western European countries with better wages, healthcare, welfare and infrastructure. For comparison there are currently just over 1.2million Brits living in the entire EU. As time goes on Brexit becomes more and more justified.
这显示出，当你允许较贫穷的国家加入欧盟，并给予它们的人民自由迁移到工资、医疗、福利和基础设施更好的较富裕的西欧国家的权利时，迁移自由的破坏性和不稳定性是多么大。相比之下，目前只有120多万英国人生活在整个欧盟。随着时间的推移，英国脱欧变得越来越合理了。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
This shows how damaging and destabilising Freedom of movement can be when you admit poorer countries into the EU and give their people the right to move freely into richer western European countries with better wages, healthcare, welfare and infrastructure. For comparison there are currently just over 1.2million Brits living in the entire EU. As time goes on Brexit becomes more and more justified.
这显示出，当你允许较贫穷的国家加入欧盟，并给予它们的人民自由迁移到工资、医疗、福利和基础设施更好的较富裕的西欧国家的权利时，迁移自由的破坏性和不稳定性是多么大。相比之下，目前只有120多万英国人生活在整个欧盟。随着时间的推移，英国脱欧变得越来越合理了。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
doboskombaya
Its not guaranteed that this would stay the same. Many of my relatives are returning at 50 years old to Romania,after working their entire life in the West Imigration would eventually naturally stop after some time
这并不能保证情况会保持不变。我的许多亲戚在50岁的时候回到罗马尼亚，他们在西方工作了一辈子，一段时间后自然会停止工作回国去
Its not guaranteed that this would stay the same. Many of my relatives are returning at 50 years old to Romania,after working their entire life in the West Imigration would eventually naturally stop after some time
这并不能保证情况会保持不变。我的许多亲戚在50岁的时候回到罗马尼亚，他们在西方工作了一辈子，一段时间后自然会停止工作回国去
the_beees_knees
So Romania becomes a population of retirees?
It's unsustainable if the young still move abroad
所以罗马尼亚变成了一个退休人口国家？
如果年轻人仍然移居国外，这是不可持续的
So Romania becomes a population of retirees?
It's unsustainable if the young still move abroad
所以罗马尼亚变成了一个退休人口国家？
如果年轻人仍然移居国外，这是不可持续的
doboskombaya
Most return at some point I for example never intend to own a house in the country im living now, Germany
In large Romanian cities houses or apartments are usually 100k In medium sized Romanian cities you can still buy an new apartment for 60k
In Germany and UK that same apartment would cost me 4-5 times more.
大多数人会在某个时候返回，比如，我从来没有打算在我现在居住的国家——德国拥有一所房子
在罗马尼亚的大城市，房子或公寓通常是10万美元。在中等规模的罗马尼亚城市，你仍然可以花6万美元买一套新公寓
而在德国和英国，同样的公寓要贵4-5倍。
Most return at some point I for example never intend to own a house in the country im living now, Germany
In large Romanian cities houses or apartments are usually 100k In medium sized Romanian cities you can still buy an new apartment for 60k
In Germany and UK that same apartment would cost me 4-5 times more.
大多数人会在某个时候返回，比如，我从来没有打算在我现在居住的国家——德国拥有一所房子
在罗马尼亚的大城市，房子或公寓通常是10万美元。在中等规模的罗马尼亚城市，你仍然可以花6万美元买一套新公寓
而在德国和英国，同样的公寓要贵4-5倍。
the_beees_knees
I fully accept your view and you make valid points. However, plenty of immigrants to western europe from Romania, Bulgaria or Poland for example think it's worth staying in places which have higher housing costs
I live in a block of 12 flats in London and 3 are owned by Romanians with a couple of Polish owners as well. All young people with kids.
I simply can't see the demographic changes of countries such as Romania working out well in the long term.
我完全接受你的观点，你的观点很有道理。然而，许多从罗马尼亚、保加利亚或波兰等地来到西欧的移民认为，留在住房成本较高的地方是值得的
我住在伦敦一个有12套公寓的街区，其中3套为罗马尼亚人所有，还有几套为波兰人所有。都是有孩子的年轻人。
从长远来看，我认为像罗马尼亚这样的国家的人口结构变化不会有什么好结果。
I fully accept your view and you make valid points. However, plenty of immigrants to western europe from Romania, Bulgaria or Poland for example think it's worth staying in places which have higher housing costs
I live in a block of 12 flats in London and 3 are owned by Romanians with a couple of Polish owners as well. All young people with kids.
I simply can't see the demographic changes of countries such as Romania working out well in the long term.
我完全接受你的观点，你的观点很有道理。然而，许多从罗马尼亚、保加利亚或波兰等地来到西欧的移民认为，留在住房成本较高的地方是值得的
我住在伦敦一个有12套公寓的街区，其中3套为罗马尼亚人所有，还有几套为波兰人所有。都是有孩子的年轻人。
从长远来看，我认为像罗马尼亚这样的国家的人口结构变化不会有什么好结果。
Robi_damian
Holy cow, with Brexit a mid-size country's worth of EU citizens is leaving . This is a disaster for both England (Europe's second densest major country) and the EU (which is already struggling to pay pensions).
The UK leaving was a good decision for both the overcrowded UK and the demographically vulnerable EU. Also the derison about the scale of EU immigration by "experts" was ultimately erronous.
天哪，随着英国脱欧，相当于一个中等规模国家的欧盟公民正在离开。这对英格兰（欧洲人口第二稠密的主要国家）和欧盟（已经在为支付养老金而挣扎）来说都是一场灾难。
对于过度拥挤的英国和人口脆弱的欧盟来说，英国脱欧都是一个好决定。此外，“专家”对欧盟移民规模的嘲笑最终也是错误的。
Holy cow, with Brexit a mid-size country's worth of EU citizens is leaving . This is a disaster for both England (Europe's second densest major country) and the EU (which is already struggling to pay pensions).
The UK leaving was a good decision for both the overcrowded UK and the demographically vulnerable EU. Also the derison about the scale of EU immigration by "experts" was ultimately erronous.
天哪，随着英国脱欧，相当于一个中等规模国家的欧盟公民正在离开。这对英格兰（欧洲人口第二稠密的主要国家）和欧盟（已经在为支付养老金而挣扎）来说都是一场灾难。
对于过度拥挤的英国和人口脆弱的欧盟来说，英国脱欧都是一个好决定。此外，“专家”对欧盟移民规模的嘲笑最终也是错误的。
Ok-Bunch-
Yup, imagine the population growing 10% through totally unfiltered immigration and the EU dictates you can't even properly measure it, never mind control it. Meanwhile house prices and population density soars in England. There's nothing wrong with Europeans immigrating here, but it was just absurd to be told you're not allowed any control over it at all.
Ironically, the UK did the proper thing by simply leaving when it didn't like EU rules, whereas it becomes more and more apparent that most countries simply overrule or ignore EU rules they don't like and get away with it. We should've just done that and people would've been less pissed off.
是的，想象一下，通过完全未经过滤的移民，人口就增长了10%，而欧盟规定你甚至不能恰当地衡量它，更不用说控制它了。与此同时，英国的房价和人口密度在飙升。欧洲人移民到这里并没有错，但被告知根本不允许对其进行任何控制，这就太荒谬了。
具有讽刺意味的是，英国在不喜欢欧盟规则的情况下退出欧盟，这是正确的做法。然而，越来越明显的是，大多数国家只是驳回或无视他们不喜欢的欧盟规则，然后侥幸逃脱。我们应该直接这么做，这样人们就不会那么生气了。
Yup, imagine the population growing 10% through totally unfiltered immigration and the EU dictates you can't even properly measure it, never mind control it. Meanwhile house prices and population density soars in England. There's nothing wrong with Europeans immigrating here, but it was just absurd to be told you're not allowed any control over it at all.
Ironically, the UK did the proper thing by simply leaving when it didn't like EU rules, whereas it becomes more and more apparent that most countries simply overrule or ignore EU rules they don't like and get away with it. We should've just done that and people would've been less pissed off.
是的，想象一下，通过完全未经过滤的移民，人口就增长了10%，而欧盟规定你甚至不能恰当地衡量它，更不用说控制它了。与此同时，英国的房价和人口密度在飙升。欧洲人移民到这里并没有错，但被告知根本不允许对其进行任何控制，这就太荒谬了。
具有讽刺意味的是，英国在不喜欢欧盟规则的情况下退出欧盟，这是正确的做法。然而，越来越明显的是，大多数国家只是驳回或无视他们不喜欢的欧盟规则，然后侥幸逃脱。我们应该直接这么做，这样人们就不会那么生气了。
potofjollop1
If you want to settle in Germany you have to register with the town hall on the day you decide to. In the UK you become a resident after 6 months regardless of whether you plan to stay one day longer or whether you have registered anywhere.
I've been saying this for years on reddit and suggesting some of the problems it will likely cause when estimating things like net migration. If someone went to the UK and worked for 5 months then left, they would never be considered resident whereas someone who goes for 6 months then returns the next week, would.
On the flip side, because there is no official process for becoming a resident, (it is up to the person to inform the authority, however not informing the authority does not preclude you from being officially resident, as mentioned by law after 6 months you are resident regardless), there will be people in a kind of limbo- who are officially residents but have no official way of proving it.
如果你想在德国定居，你必须在决定定居的那天到市政厅登记。而在英国，不管你是否计划多待一天，或是否在任何地方登记了，6个月后你就成为了居民。
我已经在红迪上说了好几年了，并提出了在估算净迁移时可能会引起的一些问题。如果有人去英国工作了5个月，然后离开，他们永远不会被认为是居民，而如果有人去了6个月，然后下周就回来了，他们就会被认为是居民。
另一方面，因为没有成为居民的正式程序，（由当事人通知当局，但不通知当局并不排除你成为正式居民，正如法律所述，6个月后你无论如何都会自动变成居民），会有一些人处于一种摇摆不定的状态——他们是官方的居民，但没有官方的方式来证明这一点。
If you want to settle in Germany you have to register with the town hall on the day you decide to. In the UK you become a resident after 6 months regardless of whether you plan to stay one day longer or whether you have registered anywhere.
I've been saying this for years on reddit and suggesting some of the problems it will likely cause when estimating things like net migration. If someone went to the UK and worked for 5 months then left, they would never be considered resident whereas someone who goes for 6 months then returns the next week, would.
On the flip side, because there is no official process for becoming a resident, (it is up to the person to inform the authority, however not informing the authority does not preclude you from being officially resident, as mentioned by law after 6 months you are resident regardless), there will be people in a kind of limbo- who are officially residents but have no official way of proving it.
如果你想在德国定居，你必须在决定定居的那天到市政厅登记。而在英国，不管你是否计划多待一天，或是否在任何地方登记了，6个月后你就成为了居民。
我已经在红迪上说了好几年了，并提出了在估算净迁移时可能会引起的一些问题。如果有人去英国工作了5个月，然后离开，他们永远不会被认为是居民，而如果有人去了6个月，然后下周就回来了，他们就会被认为是居民。
另一方面，因为没有成为居民的正式程序，（由当事人通知当局，但不通知当局并不排除你成为正式居民，正如法律所述，6个月后你无论如何都会自动变成居民），会有一些人处于一种摇摆不定的状态——他们是官方的居民，但没有官方的方式来证明这一点。
cedarofleb
So 1.5 million Brits moved to a whole continent, meanwhile over 5 million Euroeans moved to this 600 mile long and on average 100 mile wide island. What a fair exchange. NOT. Any sensible govt on leaving the EU would have said either we get 4.5 million resident permits (although if you were doing it based on land mass equvalent up to 40 million) for UK citizens to the EU or we just give 1.5 Europeans at our choosing permits the rest will have to return home to Europe.
Basically Poland, Romania etc have ruined it for Britain, there was no problem before the poor countries of Eastern Europe were allowed to take full advantage of free movement, UK let them all in whilst other countries put in restrictions. As a result it was too much and resulted in Brexit, meanwhile Poland are in the EU, with an innocent face. The EU was a Western Europe group of countries and Britain an early member. Crazy that a situation developed whereby one of the founding members left because of all the new members, that were poverty stricken communist countries.
所以150万英国人搬到了整个大陆，同时超过500万欧洲人搬到了这个600英里长平均100英里宽的岛屿。多么公平的交换啊。不。任何明智的政府在离开欧盟都会说：要么我们再得到450万英国公民旅居欧盟的居民许可证（尽管如果基于土地面积来算的话应该高达4000万），要么我们只允许15万欧洲人自由选择，其余的人必须回到欧洲大陆。
基本上，波兰、罗马尼亚等国家毁了英国。在东欧的贫穷国家被允许充分利用自由流动之前，没有任何问题。英国让他们全部进入，而其他国家则进行限制。结果就是太多了，导致了英国脱欧，同时波兰留在欧盟，装出一张无辜的脸。欧盟是一个西欧国家集团，英国是早期的成员。疯狂的是，一个创始成员国因为所有的新成员而离开了，而这些新成员都曾经是贫困的社会主义国家。
So 1.5 million Brits moved to a whole continent, meanwhile over 5 million Euroeans moved to this 600 mile long and on average 100 mile wide island. What a fair exchange. NOT. Any sensible govt on leaving the EU would have said either we get 4.5 million resident permits (although if you were doing it based on land mass equvalent up to 40 million) for UK citizens to the EU or we just give 1.5 Europeans at our choosing permits the rest will have to return home to Europe.
Basically Poland, Romania etc have ruined it for Britain, there was no problem before the poor countries of Eastern Europe were allowed to take full advantage of free movement, UK let them all in whilst other countries put in restrictions. As a result it was too much and resulted in Brexit, meanwhile Poland are in the EU, with an innocent face. The EU was a Western Europe group of countries and Britain an early member. Crazy that a situation developed whereby one of the founding members left because of all the new members, that were poverty stricken communist countries.
所以150万英国人搬到了整个大陆，同时超过500万欧洲人搬到了这个600英里长平均100英里宽的岛屿。多么公平的交换啊。不。任何明智的政府在离开欧盟都会说：要么我们再得到450万英国公民旅居欧盟的居民许可证（尽管如果基于土地面积来算的话应该高达4000万），要么我们只允许15万欧洲人自由选择，其余的人必须回到欧洲大陆。
基本上，波兰、罗马尼亚等国家毁了英国。在东欧的贫穷国家被允许充分利用自由流动之前，没有任何问题。英国让他们全部进入，而其他国家则进行限制。结果就是太多了，导致了英国脱欧，同时波兰留在欧盟，装出一张无辜的脸。欧盟是一个西欧国家集团，英国是早期的成员。疯狂的是，一个创始成员国因为所有的新成员而离开了，而这些新成员都曾经是贫困的社会主义国家。
Allesweissbier
More than 5 millions settled status applications is mindblowing
Official stats underestimated the true EU migrant population in the UK by half, or by more than half assuming some of the EU citizens in the UK left without claiming settled status due to Brexit and COVID
This must mean that all manner of other data has been wrong, from the obvious migration stats through to excess mortality data presented through COVID, to GDP/capita etc. etc.
You wonder what policy decisions have in retrospect been mistakes as a result. Imagine having made policy choices based on data that pretended 6 cities the size of Manchester (pop. 500k) didn't exist
超过500万的身份申请是令人震惊的
官方统计数据将英国境内的欧盟移民人口低估了一半，或者超过一半的数据认为，由于英国脱欧和新冠肺炎，在英国的一些欧盟公民没有申请定居身份就离开了英国
这必然意味着所有其他数据都是错误的，从明显的移民统计数据到通过新冠病毒传播的额外死亡率数据，再到GDP/人均等等。
你想知道，回过头来看，哪些决策结果是错误的。想象一下，如果你根据数据做出政策选择——这些数据假设6个规模相当于曼彻斯特城市（人口50万）不存在
More than 5 millions settled status applications is mindblowing
Official stats underestimated the true EU migrant population in the UK by half, or by more than half assuming some of the EU citizens in the UK left without claiming settled status due to Brexit and COVID
This must mean that all manner of other data has been wrong, from the obvious migration stats through to excess mortality data presented through COVID, to GDP/capita etc. etc.
You wonder what policy decisions have in retrospect been mistakes as a result. Imagine having made policy choices based on data that pretended 6 cities the size of Manchester (pop. 500k) didn't exist
超过500万的身份申请是令人震惊的
官方统计数据将英国境内的欧盟移民人口低估了一半，或者超过一半的数据认为，由于英国脱欧和新冠肺炎，在英国的一些欧盟公民没有申请定居身份就离开了英国
这必然意味着所有其他数据都是错误的，从明显的移民统计数据到通过新冠病毒传播的额外死亡率数据，再到GDP/人均等等。
你想知道，回过头来看，哪些决策结果是错误的。想象一下，如果你根据数据做出政策选择——这些数据假设6个规模相当于曼彻斯特城市（人口50万）不存在
FloatingVoter
The Leeds-Manchester-Liverpool metroplex has a population of about 7,000,000.
There were likely more than that many EU citizens in the UK, when the Westminister bubble didn't project more than 100,000.
This is why people have had enough of the ruling class.
利兹-曼彻斯特-利物浦的大都市圈大约有700万人口。
英国的欧盟公民数量很可能超过这个数字，而当时的威斯敏斯特宣传并没有预测到会超过10万人。
这就是为什么人们已经受够了统治阶级。
The Leeds-Manchester-Liverpool metroplex has a population of about 7,000,000.
There were likely more than that many EU citizens in the UK, when the Westminister bubble didn't project more than 100,000.
This is why people have had enough of the ruling class.
利兹-曼彻斯特-利物浦的大都市圈大约有700万人口。
英国的欧盟公民数量很可能超过这个数字，而当时的威斯敏斯特宣传并没有预测到会超过10万人。
这就是为什么人们已经受够了统治阶级。
Azlan82
This cant be true, remainer claimed only 3 million lived here...and after the brexit vote were going home in record numbers
这不可能是真的，留欧派声称只有300万人住在这里…在英国脱欧公投后，回国的人数创下了纪录
This cant be true, remainer claimed only 3 million lived here...and after the brexit vote were going home in record numbers
这不可能是真的，留欧派声称只有300万人住在这里…在英国脱欧公投后，回国的人数创下了纪录
Diemo2
The funny thing is that they have been leaving in record numbers, so how many must have been there to start with?
搞笑的是，要是他们离开的人数创了记录，那么一开始应该有多少人住在这里？
The funny thing is that they have been leaving in record numbers, so how many must have been there to start with?
搞笑的是，要是他们离开的人数创了记录，那么一开始应该有多少人住在这里？
Vastaux
Why is exactly why many of us voted brexit. Anyone but the priveladged middle class and above could see that eastern Europeans were flooding the lower class areas and job.
这正是我们很多人投票脱欧的原因。除了优越的中产阶级及以上阶层，任何人都能看到东欧人正涌入下层阶级地区和工作岗位。
Why is exactly why many of us voted brexit. Anyone but the priveladged middle class and above could see that eastern Europeans were flooding the lower class areas and job.
这正是我们很多人投票脱欧的原因。除了优越的中产阶级及以上阶层，任何人都能看到东欧人正涌入下层阶级地区和工作岗位。
Merpedy
As an Eastern European I can tell you that many of the salaries in the UK have not been worth work for a good few years now
Those Eastern Europeans are ‘flooding’ lower class areas because their jobs pay the minimum salary (sometimes even less if we account for modern slavery) and that’s the best they can, or barely can, afford. A lot of Brits seem to think that the UK remains some sort of gold palace for Eastern European’s when in most cases that’s no longer really true
作为一名东欧人，我可以告诉你，英国的许多薪水都不值得工作好多年了
这些东欧人正在“涌入”下层阶级地区，因为他们的工作工资最低（如果我们考虑到现代奴隶制，有时甚至更低），这是他们能承受的最好工资，或勉强负担得起的最好工资。很多英国人似乎认为英国仍然是东欧人的黄金宫殿，但在大多数情况下，事实已经不是这样了
As an Eastern European I can tell you that many of the salaries in the UK have not been worth work for a good few years now
Those Eastern Europeans are ‘flooding’ lower class areas because their jobs pay the minimum salary (sometimes even less if we account for modern slavery) and that’s the best they can, or barely can, afford. A lot of Brits seem to think that the UK remains some sort of gold palace for Eastern European’s when in most cases that’s no longer really true
作为一名东欧人，我可以告诉你，英国的许多薪水都不值得工作好多年了
这些东欧人正在“涌入”下层阶级地区，因为他们的工作工资最低（如果我们考虑到现代奴隶制，有时甚至更低），这是他们能承受的最好工资，或勉强负担得起的最好工资。很多英国人似乎认为英国仍然是东欧人的黄金宫殿，但在大多数情况下，事实已经不是这样了
HasuTeras
Wonder how much the non-EU immigration statistics are off by...
不知道非欧盟移民统计数据又有多少出入……
Wonder how much the non-EU immigration statistics are off by...
不知道非欧盟移民统计数据又有多少出入……
leviathaan
In a few years they will naturalize and I can foresee a big push towards rejoin.
几年后，他们将入籍英国，我可以预见，重新加入欧盟的可能性很大。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
In a few years they will naturalize and I can foresee a big push towards rejoin.
几年后，他们将入籍英国，我可以预见，重新加入欧盟的可能性很大。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
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