德国人分享:为什么有那么多的德国人讨厌巴伐利亚人?
2021-11-14 yzy86 20939
正文翻译


(图解:巴伐利亚传统服饰)

I’ve lived in Munich for a number of years and traveled around the country a fair amount. One consistent theme I’ve come across is a dislike (not hatred) of Bayern
The reasons I’ve heard vary (politics, history, behavior) but there seems to be something else.

我在慕尼黑住过几年,而且在整个德国走访过的地方也相当多了。我始终会碰到的一个话题就是不喜欢(不是憎恨)巴伐利亚。
我所听到的原因各不相同(政治/历史/行为方面的),但似乎还存在别的原因。

评论翻译
VoloxReddit
It should be noted that, for the most part, the whole issue needs to be understood as mostly banter.

应当注意的是,在大多数情况下,这个问题需要被理解成无伤大雅的玩笑。
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Bavaria has a pretty strong cultural identity that diverges from what other Germans view as German. This has historical reasons, but it's also safe to say that Bavarians aren't the only people in Germany with a distinct culture. It just gets the most attention.

巴伐利亚有着相当强烈的文化身份认同,和其他德国人眼中的德国人背道而驰。其中有历史原因,但也可以说,巴伐利亚人并不是德国唯一一个拥有独特文化的族群。它只是得到了最多的关注而已。

I think the reason Bavaria gets so much attention is because 1) Bavarians are often very outspoken about their pride in their heritage and traditions and 2) because the CSU, a regionally bespoke version of the conservative CDU party, is quite clear about who they represent on a national level. Bavaria is also seen as quite conservative due to strong cultural ties to catholicism and its habit of voting for the aforementioned CSU.

我认为,巴伐利亚之所以得到如此多的关注,是因为:
1)巴伐利亚人经常会直言不讳地表达他们对自己遗产和传统的自豪感;
2)因为巴伐利亚基社盟(CSU)是保守政党德国基民盟(CDU)的地方定制版,他们在国家层面上相当清楚自己代表的是什么。由于巴伐利亚和天主教有着很紧密的文化联系,而且有投票给基社盟的习惯,因此也被认为是相当保守的。

In addition, Bavaria has become synonymous with German culture through American media. This is frustrating for other Germans who, as I mentioned, aren't very much like the Bavarians and don't enjoy being stereotyped as such. Yes, Bavarian culture is German culture, but not all German culture is Bavarian culture. Honestly, Bavarian culture isn't even the only culture in the state of Bavaria either, considering the presence of Swabians and Franconians to name a few.

此外,巴伐利亚通过美国媒体的作用,已然成为了德国文化的代名词。这样其他德国人就会感到沮丧,正如我所提到的,他们和巴伐利亚人是不太一样的,也不喜欢被定型为这样的人。是的,巴伐利亚文化确实是德国文化,但不是所有的德国文化都是巴伐利亚文化。老实说,鉴于斯瓦比亚人和弗兰克尼亚人(仅举几例)的存在,巴伐利亚文化甚至都不是巴伐利亚州唯一的文化,。

So, TL;DR, Bavaria is essentially German Texas.

所以,简言之,巴伐利亚基本上就相当于德国的德克萨斯。

Now, I've lived both in Bavaria and outside of it. I haven't observed any substantial desire in Bavaria to separate from the rest of Germany. Regional/local "patriotism" isn't at all limited to Bavaria either. A good amount of other states have their own weird cultural quirks. Bavaria isn't as different from the rest as it's often made out to be.

到现在,我在巴伐利亚和巴伐利亚以外的地方都生活过了。我还没有观察到巴伐利亚有与德国其他地区分离的任何实质性愿望。地区/地方的“爱国主义”也并不局限于巴伐利亚。其他的很多州都有自己的文化怪癖。巴伐利亚和其他地区的差异,并不如人们经常鼓噪的那么大。

I have to admit, I'm sometimes frustrated by people who say they know exactly what Bavarians want and think. I find that a bit presumptuous. Banter and stereotypes are fine to an extent, but they're not something I believe you should treat as facts.

我不得不承认,有时候,那些自称完全明白巴伐利亚人所思所想的人会让我感到很沮丧。我觉得这样有点狂妄。逗趣和刻板印象在一定程度上是没问题的,但我认为你不应该把它们当成事实。
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If Bavarian culture isn't German, then neither is Swabian, Saxonian or Berliner culture either. Kölner Karn isn't German culture, it's from Cologne! I hope it's clear what I'm trying to point out here.
I wish we could all just enjoy the various regional cultures because that diversity is what makes Germany so interesting.

如果巴伐利亚文化不是德国文化,那么斯瓦比亚人、萨克森人或柏林人的文化也不是了。科隆狂欢节也不是德国文化了,它来自科隆!我希望我把我的意思表达清楚了。
我希望我们都能去欣赏各种各样的地方文化,因为正是这种多样性让德国如此有趣。

FC Bayern Munich being so dominant and monopolizing in comparison to other German teams doesn't help much either, if I could add that. As a Bayern fan, I have to admit that their bosses do carry a very arrogant aura with them.
But yeah, it's mostly banter. Whenever I as a Bavarian meet people from other parts of Germany, I never really get stigmatized or treated with any contempt at all. I think that only happens with maybe Saxonians if they speak in their accent, at least in our generation, due to both the extreme right wing and extreme left wing presence in that state.

(回)请允许我补充一点,拜仁慕尼黑俱乐部相比于其他德国球队的超强统治力和垄断性也无济于事。身为拜仁球迷,我不得不承认,他们的老板确实自带一种极为傲慢的气场。
不过是的,大多都是逗趣而已。每当我这个巴伐利亚人遇到来自德国其他地区的人时,我从来没有被真正地污名化过或是受到任何蔑视。我想这种事只会发生在萨克森人身上,如果他们用自己的口音说话的话,至少在我们这一代是如此,而原因是极右翼和极左翼都存在于该州。

MajorGef
Bavaria voted against the German constitution. They had a caveat that if all other german states agreed they would join too, but made it a point to say they didnt want to.

巴伐利亚曾投票反对德国宪法。他们曾给出过警告:如果其他所有的德国州都同意,那他们也会加入,但明确说过他们是不愿意接受的。

Bavarian politicians, especially conservative ones have a tendency to focus on aiding bavaria even in positions where they are supposed to take care of the entire republic.

巴伐利亚的政治家们,特别是保守派政治家,就算他们坐上的职位要求他们去照顾整个共和国,他们也往往会专注于帮助巴伐利亚。

parasite_rug_muncher
You put some effort into this one. It's an unnecessarily decent, yet charming post.
But... fuck bavaria!
Hahahaha.... <3

这个贴楼主是下了一番功夫的。这个贴自带一种实无必要的体面,但很有魅力。
不过嘛…巴伐利亚去死!啊哈哈哈

sjs
I spent a few weeks in Munich and then a month in Hamburg and they definitely joked about Bavaria but they were always smiling. It seemed friendly. The thing I remember most is them welcoming me and saying “You saw Bavaria and now you see what Germany is like!”

我在慕尼黑待过几周,之后又在汉堡待了一个月,他们是绝对会取笑巴伐利亚人的,但总是微笑着说的。看上去很友善。给我印象最深的一件事就是:他们欢迎我的到来,然后说“你已经见识过巴伐利亚了,现在你看到的才是德国的本色!”

Jim_from_snowy_river
Because it’s the place everyone thinks of when they think of Germany. The Dirndl/Giant beer mug, Lederhosen, sausage, kriskindel marts, and the alps stereotype is all Bavarian. But there’s more to Germany than that.

因为所有人一想到德国,他们就会想到这个地方。紧身裙/巨型啤酒马克杯、德式皮短裤、德国香肠、圣婴市场还有阿尔卑斯,这些刻板印象全都是来自巴伐利亚的风物。但德国文化不止这些。

It's not really our fault that we're that much better at marketing than the lot of you.

(回,巴伐利亚人)我们在营销术上比你们这一大票人强出太多,真不是我们的错啊。

clemesislife
Because to many bavarians unironically think that they are better than the rest. Especially in politics.

因为有太多的巴伐利亚人真心认为他们比其他人优秀。特别是在政治上。

-Blackspell-
As a Franconian it’s my holy right to hate Bavarians!

作为一个弗兰克尼亚人,讨厌巴伐利亚人是我的神圣权利。
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uk_uk
Bavaria (the land) has always been an ambivalent place. Historically close to the Austrians, it also often had alliances with countries that fought wars against Prussia.

(柏林人)巴伐利亚这块地一直都是个很暧昧的地区。历史上它和奥地利人关系密切,也经常和那些同普鲁士对战的国家结盟。

For example, Bavaria was on the side of France in the War of the Spanish Succession. It was positioned against Prussia in the Seven Years' War, it fought alongside France against Austria (admittedly, Austria attacked first). Bavaria waged war against Prussia several times, for example on the side of France against Prussia in the Fourth Coalition War, in which Prussia suffered a severe defeat. Shortly before the Battle of Leipzig, Bavaria changed sides... "for reasons".

比如,在西班牙王位继承战争中,巴伐利亚站在法国一边。在七年战争中,它的立场是和普鲁士为敌,并与法国并肩作战对抗奥地利(不可否认,是奥地利首先发起进攻的)。巴伐利亚曾多次对普鲁士开战,比如在第四次联合战争中站在法国一边对抗普鲁士,普鲁士在这场战争中惨败。在莱比锡会战前不久,巴伐利亚“出于各种原因”换了边...

The relationship between Prussia and Bavaria was strained after that... until the Prussian-Austrian War broke out in 1866... and Bavaria fought on the side of Austria. And lost. Still, when the Franco-Prussian War broke out in 1870, with the Bavarians going to war on the side of the North German Confederation (Prussia and Allies) and a few small South German states....

那以后,普鲁士和巴伐利亚之间的关系一直很紧张......直到1866年普奥战争爆发,而巴伐利亚加入奥地利一边参战了。然后还输了。不过,当1870年普法战争爆发时,巴伐利亚人站在了北德意志联邦(普鲁士及其盟国)和几个南德意志小邦的一边参战了....

Which was curious because Ludwig actually didn't like Prussia.... especially because of the defeat in 1866 and because Bavaria had to make large repair payments. Moreover, it was bound by treaty to fight on Prussia's side in the event of war.... So Bavaria was not really volunteering to fight with Prussia in the war against France. ;)

这就很稀奇了,因为路德维希二世其实并不喜欢普鲁士…特别是因为1866年的战败,也因为巴伐利亚不得不支付巨额赔款。此外,他们还受到条约的约束,须在爆发战争时站在普鲁士一边作战…所以巴伐利亚在反法战争中加入普鲁士一边,其实并不是自主自愿的。

Even more, the Bavarian units were led by Prussian officers.The Bavarian King Ludwig, the highest-ranking monarch in Germany after the Prussian King, offered the imperial crown to the Prussian King during the war when the southern German states joined the North German Confederation. The war was still going on when the Prussian king was crowned emperor in Paris. Ludwig was not there, of course.

更有甚者,巴伐利亚的部队是由普鲁士军官领导的。巴伐利亚国王路德维希是全德仅次于普鲁士国王的最高级别君主,在战争期间,当德国南部各州加入北德意志联邦时,他主动把皇冠交给了普鲁士国王。而当普鲁士国王在巴黎加冕为皇帝时,这场战争还在进行中。路德维希当然不会在那里了。

And why did Ludwig offer the Prussian king the imperial crown? Because Ludwig was squandering money... by building something like Neuschwanstein Castle. So Bavaria was almost broke because of the war of 1866, but Ludwig still wanted to build and... Prussia had money and a plan ;)

那么,路德维希为什么要把皇冠交给普鲁士国王呢?因为当时的路德维希在挥霍钱财,比如建造新天鹅堡之类的东西。所以巴伐利亚因为1866年的战争濒临破产,路德维希却还是想大造特造,而且... 普鲁士有钱,也有计划。

After that Prussia was the boss in the German Empire... Bavaria was important, but under a Prussian emperor... historically a difficult situation for all involved. Then came the First World War, followed by the Nazis, who quickly gained a foothold, especially in Bavaria, and then the Second World War.

那以后,普鲁士成为了德意志帝国的老大…巴伐利亚是很重要,但是在普鲁士皇帝的统治之下...从历史上看,这对所有参与方来说都是一个很艰困的局面。然后便是第一次世界大战,接着是纳粹,他们很快就站稳了脚跟,在巴伐利亚尤其如此,再然后就是第二次世界大战了。

Democracy, federal states and ... Bavaria had a massive problem! It was effectively unable to support itself financially. It was an agricultural state with a bit of industry, but nothing really impressive.

民主制,联邦国家…巴伐利亚碰到了一个大麻烦!它在财政上,其实是无力维持自身运转的。它是一个农业国,有一点工业,但真没有什么能让人眼前一亮的产业。
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Fortunately, there was (and still is) the so-called Länderfinanzausgleich: rich states give money to poor states. And Bavaria got money for a very long time. Bavaria went from being an agricultural state to a state with important industry. And suddenly Bavaria generated more money than other federal states, so it went from money recipient to money payer.

幸运的是,当时有(现在仍然有)所谓的“各州财政均等化”:富裕的州向穷州提供资金。而巴伐利亚在很长一段时间内,都拿到了钱。巴伐利亚也从一个农业州变身为一个拥有重要工业的州。巴伐利亚突然之间就比其他联邦州生出了更多的钱,所以它也从资金的接受方变成了支付方。
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And of course, Bavaria has been trying for years to change the fiscal equalisation system because they think that the poorer federal states (including Berlin) should make an effort to get money themselves... without Bavaria's help. Which doesn't go down so well with the northern German states.

当然了,巴伐利亚多年来一直在试图改变财政平衡制度,因为他们认为比较穷的联邦州(包括柏林)不应该接受巴伐利亚的帮助,而是靠自己去努力找钱。而这种主张在德国北部各州的接受度并不高。
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In summary: Bavaria has mostly waged war against Prussia (together with France, or Austria or both). In 1866 they lost massively and had to pay a lot of money in reperations. France declares war on Prussia, Bavaria HAS to fight alongside Prussia in France. Bavaria's King Ludwig hates Prussia, but needs money to "pimp my crib". Prussia gives money and becomes emperor. World Wars. Bavaria poor. Bavaria becomes rich and behaves like an asshole. Also, quite a few Bavarians like to think they are Bavarians first, Germans second. Especially their politicians.

综上所述:巴伐利亚(与法国一起,或与奥地利一起,或与这两国一起)发动的大部分战争都是针对普鲁士。1866年,他们惨败而归,不得不支付大量赔款。法国对普鲁士宣战,巴伐利亚不得不在法国与普鲁士并肩作战。巴伐利亚国王路德维希憎恨普鲁士,但需要钱来“装修窝棚”。普鲁士给了钱并成为了皇帝。两次世界大战。巴伐利亚很穷。巴伐利亚变富了,然后就表现得像个混球。另外,相当多的巴伐利亚人喜欢认为他们首先是巴伐利亚人,然后才是德国人。尤其是他们的政治家。

But still, it hardly does the Bavarian politics of the post 1848 era justice to call them "pro Austrian". Other than Liechtenstein, there was only one German state I'd consider reliably pro-Austrian: Saxony under von Beust. The others had little intra-German ambitions other than self-preservation.

(回)但是,把1848年后的巴伐利亚政治说成是“亲奥地利”也谈不上公正。除了列支敦士登,在我眼中只有一个德国州确实是亲奥地利的:冯·博斯特领导下的萨克森州。其他的州除了自保外,在德国内部没有什么野心。

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