匈牙利，中世纪最强大的王国之一，是如何变成如此弱小的国家的?为什么匈牙利是唯一一个失去了一半以上原有领土的欧洲国家?
正文翻译
How did Hungary, one of the most powerful medi kingdoms, become such a small and weak country? Why is Hungary the only European country that lost more than half of its original territory?
匈牙利，中世纪最强大的王国之一，是如何变成如此弱小的国家的?为什么匈牙利是唯一一个失去了一半以上原有领土的欧洲国家?
How did Hungary, one of the most powerful medi kingdoms, become such a small and weak country? Why is Hungary the only European country that lost more than half of its original territory?
匈牙利，中世纪最强大的王国之一，是如何变成如此弱小的国家的?为什么匈牙利是唯一一个失去了一半以上原有领土的欧洲国家?
评论翻译
真正的问题是:为什么匈牙利不能从一个中世纪国家发展成一个现代国家，而其他国家却可以。
这个问题的答案非常复杂，远比少数族裔问题复杂，少数族裔问题只是结果，而不是根本原因。
Dan Torcea
Medi Hungary was large and strong because until the 19th/early 20th centuries the states were organized on completely different bases from the current states.
In the Middle Ages, the ethnic origin of the common people (peasants, townspeople) did not matter. What mattered was that the nobility shared the same political identity. Nobles in the Kingdom of Hungary, regardless of their ethnic origin, considered themselves to belong to the Hungarian political nation. Common people, regardless of their ethnic origin, had nothing to say in state politics.
Hungary was not a singular case. There have been many such states:
Austrian Empire, Russian Empire, Ottoman Empire
But since the 19th century, states have been organized according to ethnic principle. The peoples of Europe have fought for independence and national unification.
So multiethnic entities have disintegrated.
According to the 1850 census, ethnic Hungarians were only 40% of the population of the Kingdom of Hungary + Transylvania, but without Croatia.
Such an entity had no place in 20th century Europe. At the first favorable opportunity (end of WW1), oppressed peoples (Romanians, Slovaks, Serbs, Ruthenians) were liberated.
中世纪的匈牙利是一个庞大而强大的国家，因为直到19世纪或20世纪早期，这些国家的组织基础与当前国家完全不同。
在中世纪，平民(农民、城镇居民)的种族出身并不重要。重要的是，贵族们拥有相同的政治身份。匈牙利王国的贵族，无论他们的种族出身，都认为自己属于匈牙利政治阶层。普通人，无论他们的种族出身，在国家政治中都没有发言权。
匈牙利并非个例。有很多这样的国家:
立陶宛大公国；波兰立陶宛联邦；保加利亚帝国；瑞典（芬兰在12世纪至19世纪是瑞典的一部分。这并不意味着它现在必须成为瑞典的一部分）；神罗帝国；奥地利帝国，俄罗斯帝国，奥斯曼帝国。
但自19世纪以来，国家就按照种族原则划分了。欧洲各国人民为独立和国家统一而斗争。因此，多民族实体已经瓦解。
根据1850年的人口普查，匈牙利少数民族人口仅占匈牙利王国和特兰西瓦尼亚的40%，不包括克罗地亚。链接略
这样一个实体在20世纪的欧洲没有立足之地。在一战结束终于有了一次有利的机会，被压迫的人民(罗马尼亚人、斯洛伐克人、塞尔维亚人、鲁塞尼亚人)获得了解放。
Medi Hungary was large and strong because until the 19th/early 20th centuries the states were organized on completely different bases from the current states.
In the Middle Ages, the ethnic origin of the common people (peasants, townspeople) did not matter. What mattered was that the nobility shared the same political identity. Nobles in the Kingdom of Hungary, regardless of their ethnic origin, considered themselves to belong to the Hungarian political nation. Common people, regardless of their ethnic origin, had nothing to say in state politics.
Hungary was not a singular case. There have been many such states:
Austrian Empire, Russian Empire, Ottoman Empire
But since the 19th century, states have been organized according to ethnic principle. The peoples of Europe have fought for independence and national unification.
So multiethnic entities have disintegrated.
According to the 1850 census, ethnic Hungarians were only 40% of the population of the Kingdom of Hungary + Transylvania, but without Croatia.
Such an entity had no place in 20th century Europe. At the first favorable opportunity (end of WW1), oppressed peoples (Romanians, Slovaks, Serbs, Ruthenians) were liberated.
中世纪的匈牙利是一个庞大而强大的国家，因为直到19世纪或20世纪早期，这些国家的组织基础与当前国家完全不同。
在中世纪，平民(农民、城镇居民)的种族出身并不重要。重要的是，贵族们拥有相同的政治身份。匈牙利王国的贵族，无论他们的种族出身，都认为自己属于匈牙利政治阶层。普通人，无论他们的种族出身，在国家政治中都没有发言权。
匈牙利并非个例。有很多这样的国家:
立陶宛大公国；波兰立陶宛联邦；保加利亚帝国；瑞典（芬兰在12世纪至19世纪是瑞典的一部分。这并不意味着它现在必须成为瑞典的一部分）；神罗帝国；奥地利帝国，俄罗斯帝国，奥斯曼帝国。
但自19世纪以来，国家就按照种族原则划分了。欧洲各国人民为独立和国家统一而斗争。因此，多民族实体已经瓦解。
根据1850年的人口普查，匈牙利少数民族人口仅占匈牙利王国和特兰西瓦尼亚的40%，不包括克罗地亚。链接略
这样一个实体在20世纪的欧洲没有立足之地。在一战结束终于有了一次有利的机会，被压迫的人民(罗马尼亚人、斯洛伐克人、塞尔维亚人、鲁塞尼亚人)获得了解放。
Gergely Mészáros
It’s sad to see in the comments how strong emotions are generated by demagogy and propaganda spread to somehow justify political shit.
Please be aware that all people can do horrible things. The nationality doesn’t count. Never did. In some situations everyone can become evil, including you/us. Just hope we’ll never be in such situation and let’s show how we are better.
All of us should join forces, work as a team for Europe (or preferably for a future united nations of Earth) and forget ancient structures which always served the goals of politics and some actual ruler class.
If we can not do that, and stuck in the state of blame-war and justification-searching despite our significant technical advantage, we are no better at all. That’s it.
在评论中看到煽动和宣传如何产生强烈的情绪，以某种方式为政治谎言辩护，真是可悲。
请注意，所有人都可能做出可怕的事情。与国籍无关，历来如此。在某些情况下，每个人都可能变成恶魔，包括你们/我们。希望我们永远不会出现这种情况，让我们展示我们如何变得更好。
我们所有人都应该联合起来，作为一个团体为欧洲(或者最好是为一个未来的地球联众国)而奋斗，忘记总是服务于政治目标的事物和一些实际统治者阶级。
如果我们做不到这一点，即便我们拥有巨大的科技优势，也仍将陷于指责战争和寻找理由的状态，我们就根本不会更好。
就是这样。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
It’s sad to see in the comments how strong emotions are generated by demagogy and propaganda spread to somehow justify political shit.
Please be aware that all people can do horrible things. The nationality doesn’t count. Never did. In some situations everyone can become evil, including you/us. Just hope we’ll never be in such situation and let’s show how we are better.
All of us should join forces, work as a team for Europe (or preferably for a future united nations of Earth) and forget ancient structures which always served the goals of politics and some actual ruler class.
If we can not do that, and stuck in the state of blame-war and justification-searching despite our significant technical advantage, we are no better at all. That’s it.
在评论中看到煽动和宣传如何产生强烈的情绪，以某种方式为政治谎言辩护，真是可悲。
请注意，所有人都可能做出可怕的事情。与国籍无关，历来如此。在某些情况下，每个人都可能变成恶魔，包括你们/我们。希望我们永远不会出现这种情况，让我们展示我们如何变得更好。
我们所有人都应该联合起来，作为一个团体为欧洲(或者最好是为一个未来的地球联众国)而奋斗，忘记总是服务于政治目标的事物和一些实际统治者阶级。
如果我们做不到这一点，即便我们拥有巨大的科技优势，也仍将陷于指责战争和寻找理由的状态，我们就根本不会更好。
就是这样。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Tudor Florescu
The only one of those empires that still survived as an empire up to this day is the Russian one, although it lost a few territories, it’s still a multiethnic empire with an “elected” leader.
直到今天，唯一幸存下来的帝国是俄罗斯帝国，尽管它失去了一些领土，但它仍然是一个多民族的帝国，有一个“民选”的领导人。
The only one of those empires that still survived as an empire up to this day is the Russian one, although it lost a few territories, it’s still a multiethnic empire with an “elected” leader.
直到今天，唯一幸存下来的帝国是俄罗斯帝国，尽管它失去了一些领土，但它仍然是一个多民族的帝国，有一个“民选”的领导人。
Colin Reid
What remains of formally Russian territory though is about 80% ethnic Russian, so even if it were fully democratic, the political power of other groups would be limited (much as, say, the voting preferences of White English people tend to dominate UK politics, not because others are excluded but simply by weight of numbers). There are a few sovereign European states where it’s impossible for a single ethnic group to dominate the government, although none of them are major powers: Belgium, Bosnia&Herzegovina and Switzerland.
然而，俄罗斯领土上80%的人都是俄罗斯族，所以即使它是完全民主的，其他族裔的政治权力也将是有限的。就像英国白人的投票偏好往往会主导英国政治一样，不是因为其他人被排除在外了，而是单纯受到人数的影响。
只有少数几个欧洲主权国家，单一民族不可能主宰政府，尽管它们都不是大国:比利时、波斯尼亚，黑塞哥维那和瑞士。
What remains of formally Russian territory though is about 80% ethnic Russian, so even if it were fully democratic, the political power of other groups would be limited (much as, say, the voting preferences of White English people tend to dominate UK politics, not because others are excluded but simply by weight of numbers). There are a few sovereign European states where it’s impossible for a single ethnic group to dominate the government, although none of them are major powers: Belgium, Bosnia&Herzegovina and Switzerland.
然而，俄罗斯领土上80%的人都是俄罗斯族，所以即使它是完全民主的，其他族裔的政治权力也将是有限的。就像英国白人的投票偏好往往会主导英国政治一样，不是因为其他人被排除在外了，而是单纯受到人数的影响。
只有少数几个欧洲主权国家，单一民族不可能主宰政府，尽管它们都不是大国:比利时、波斯尼亚，黑塞哥维那和瑞士。
Luke Hatherton
The centuries of Ottoman occupation of southern-central Hungary must have also reduced its size compared to the Middle Ages.
奥斯曼帝国对匈牙利中南部地区长达几个世纪的占领，也使其面积与中世纪相比有所缩小。
The centuries of Ottoman occupation of southern-central Hungary must have also reduced its size compared to the Middle Ages.
奥斯曼帝国对匈牙利中南部地区长达几个世纪的占领，也使其面积与中世纪相比有所缩小。
Michal Jančina
Such an entity had no place in 20th century Europe
Yes but some lasted for most of that century, like Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and Soviet unx.
“这样一个实体在20世纪的欧洲没有立足之地。”
是的，但有些国家在那个世纪的大部分时间都还活着，比如捷克斯洛伐克、南斯拉夫和苏联。
Such an entity had no place in 20th century Europe
Yes but some lasted for most of that century, like Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and Soviet unx.
“这样一个实体在20世纪的欧洲没有立足之地。”
是的，但有些国家在那个世纪的大部分时间都还活着，比如捷克斯洛伐克、南斯拉夫和苏联。
Kevin Maddalena
Russia is still that way. I understand that some of these are in the part of Russia that is in Asia and not just Europe but according to the Encyclopedia Britannica RussiaRussia is a diverse multi-ethnical country comprising of 120 different ethnic groups many of them with their own national territories. Within the Russian borders around 100 different languages are spoken
俄罗斯仍然是这样。我知道俄罗斯部分在亚洲，部分在欧洲
但据大英百科全书记载，俄罗斯是一个多元化的多民族国家，由120个不同的民族组成。他们中的许多人拥有自己的国家领土。俄罗斯境内大约有100种不同的语言。
Russia is still that way. I understand that some of these are in the part of Russia that is in Asia and not just Europe but according to the Encyclopedia Britannica RussiaRussia is a diverse multi-ethnical country comprising of 120 different ethnic groups many of them with their own national territories. Within the Russian borders around 100 different languages are spoken
俄罗斯仍然是这样。我知道俄罗斯部分在亚洲，部分在欧洲
但据大英百科全书记载，俄罗斯是一个多元化的多民族国家，由120个不同的民族组成。他们中的许多人拥有自己的国家领土。俄罗斯境内大约有100种不同的语言。
Petros Vrasivanopoulos
They sided with the nazis and since they lost, they gor punished. IMO considering Budapest is still standing and such a beautiful place, they didn't get pubished enough since the motherfuckers just sold their own people so easily (90% of Hungarian jews perished). They are lucky they still have a country. (Not an attack on modern Hungarians, I actually love Hungary and budapest but quite frankly things could have turned out much worse for them back then)
他们站在纳粹一边，因为他们输了，所以受到了惩罚。在我看来，布达佩斯仍然屹立不倒，而且是一个如此美丽的地方，他们的出版物还不够多，因为那些混蛋们太轻易地出卖了他们自己的人民。（90%的匈牙利犹太人死亡）
他们很幸运，他们还有一个国家。(这不是对现代匈牙利人的攻击，我其实很喜欢匈牙利和布达佩斯，但坦白地说，当时的情况对他们来说可能会更糟)
They sided with the nazis and since they lost, they gor punished. IMO considering Budapest is still standing and such a beautiful place, they didn't get pubished enough since the motherfuckers just sold their own people so easily (90% of Hungarian jews perished). They are lucky they still have a country. (Not an attack on modern Hungarians, I actually love Hungary and budapest but quite frankly things could have turned out much worse for them back then)
他们站在纳粹一边，因为他们输了，所以受到了惩罚。在我看来，布达佩斯仍然屹立不倒，而且是一个如此美丽的地方，他们的出版物还不够多，因为那些混蛋们太轻易地出卖了他们自己的人民。（90%的匈牙利犹太人死亡）
他们很幸运，他们还有一个国家。(这不是对现代匈牙利人的攻击，我其实很喜欢匈牙利和布达佩斯，但坦白地说，当时的情况对他们来说可能会更糟)
Jules Morad
First of all, your premise is false. Lithuania, for example, lost more than 80% of its territory.
Secondly, half of the kingdom of Hungary wasn't Hungarian to begin with but Romanian, Slovak, Ukrainian, Serb and Croat. As it ceased to exist as an independent state in the 16th century, no cultural assimilation of minorities happened. On the contrary, the Ottoman occupation caused the displacement and shrinkage of the ethnic Hungarian population and the arrival of other ethnic groups. So it's no surprise that when the age of nationalism came, other ethnic groups had no intention to reconstitute the kingdom of Hungary in its medi borders and Hungary simply consolidated around existing ethnic Hungarian centres of population.
首先，你的前提是错误的。例如，立陶宛失去了超过80%的领土。
其次，匈牙利王国的一半不是匈牙利人而是罗马尼亚人，斯洛伐克人，乌克兰人，塞尔维亚人和克罗地亚人。在16世纪，它不再是一个独立的国家，少数民族的文化融合也没有发生。
相反，奥斯曼帝国的占领导致了匈牙利少数民族人口的迁移和减少，以及其他少数民族的到来。所以，当民族主义时代到来的时候，其他民族团体并没有打算以中世纪的边界重建匈牙利王国，匈牙利只是在现有的匈牙利民族人口中心附近巩固了自己的地位，这就不足为奇了。
First of all, your premise is false. Lithuania, for example, lost more than 80% of its territory.
Secondly, half of the kingdom of Hungary wasn't Hungarian to begin with but Romanian, Slovak, Ukrainian, Serb and Croat. As it ceased to exist as an independent state in the 16th century, no cultural assimilation of minorities happened. On the contrary, the Ottoman occupation caused the displacement and shrinkage of the ethnic Hungarian population and the arrival of other ethnic groups. So it's no surprise that when the age of nationalism came, other ethnic groups had no intention to reconstitute the kingdom of Hungary in its medi borders and Hungary simply consolidated around existing ethnic Hungarian centres of population.
首先，你的前提是错误的。例如，立陶宛失去了超过80%的领土。
其次，匈牙利王国的一半不是匈牙利人而是罗马尼亚人，斯洛伐克人，乌克兰人，塞尔维亚人和克罗地亚人。在16世纪，它不再是一个独立的国家，少数民族的文化融合也没有发生。
相反，奥斯曼帝国的占领导致了匈牙利少数民族人口的迁移和减少，以及其他少数民族的到来。所以，当民族主义时代到来的时候，其他民族团体并没有打算以中世纪的边界重建匈牙利王国，匈牙利只是在现有的匈牙利民族人口中心附近巩固了自己的地位，这就不足为奇了。
Friedrich Daniel
Your comments lacks consistency. You assume a medi kingdom breaks apart due to its multiethnicity. This is definitely not true. This is how Eupore would look like if we apply your statement on all modern European countries.
The real question is: why could Hungary not conslidate from a medi state to a modern nation, when other countries could.
And such question has a very complicated anwser that is far more complex than the minority issue, which was just the outcome, not the root cause.
你的评论前后不一致。你假设一个中世纪王国因多种族而分裂。这肯定是不对的。如果我们将你的声明应用于所有现代欧洲国家，这就是欧洲应该有的样子。
Your comments lacks consistency. You assume a medi kingdom breaks apart due to its multiethnicity. This is definitely not true. This is how Eupore would look like if we apply your statement on all modern European countries.
The real question is: why could Hungary not conslidate from a medi state to a modern nation, when other countries could.
And such question has a very complicated anwser that is far more complex than the minority issue, which was just the outcome, not the root cause.
你的评论前后不一致。你假设一个中世纪王国因多种族而分裂。这肯定是不对的。如果我们将你的声明应用于所有现代欧洲国家，这就是欧洲应该有的样子。
真正的问题是:为什么匈牙利不能从一个中世纪国家发展成一个现代国家，而其他国家却可以。
这个问题的答案非常复杂，远比少数族裔问题复杂，少数族裔问题只是结果，而不是根本原因。
Jules Morad
The answer is in your question. The kingdom of Hungary did not evolve into a modern state like France or Spain because it ceased to exist in the early 16th century. Therefore all Hungary could do was reemerge as a much smaller entity during the age of nationalism around ethnic Hungarian centres of population. Had it not been conquered by the Ottoman empire and divided up with the Habsburgs the outcome would probably have been drastically different. But that's fiction not History.
答案就在你的问题里。匈牙利王国没有像法国或西班牙那样发展成为一个现代国家，因为它在16世纪早期就不复存在了。
因此，匈牙利所能做的就是在民族主义时代以一个小得多的实体重新以匈牙利族为核心成立国家。
如果它没有被奥斯曼帝国征服并被哈布斯堡王朝瓜分，结果可能会截然不同。但那是虚构的，不是历史。
The answer is in your question. The kingdom of Hungary did not evolve into a modern state like France or Spain because it ceased to exist in the early 16th century. Therefore all Hungary could do was reemerge as a much smaller entity during the age of nationalism around ethnic Hungarian centres of population. Had it not been conquered by the Ottoman empire and divided up with the Habsburgs the outcome would probably have been drastically different. But that's fiction not History.
答案就在你的问题里。匈牙利王国没有像法国或西班牙那样发展成为一个现代国家，因为它在16世纪早期就不复存在了。
因此，匈牙利所能做的就是在民族主义时代以一个小得多的实体重新以匈牙利族为核心成立国家。
如果它没有被奥斯曼帝国征服并被哈布斯堡王朝瓜分，结果可能会截然不同。但那是虚构的，不是历史。
Friedrich Daniel
Exactly! The root cause is that when all european powers started centralizing and inreasing mobility and trade helped natural assimilation, HUngary was basically a province of Habsburg Empire, with a feudal society of serfs and land onwers. By the time Hungary had a short grasp of air to consolidate from 1868–1914, it was too late. And that is why the minorities could decide to break away
完全正确！根本原因是，当所有欧洲列强开始集权，增强流动性和贸易以促进了自然同化的时候，匈牙利基本上是哈布斯堡帝国的一个省，一个农奴和地主构成的封建社会。
1868年至1914年，匈牙利有了短暂的喘息机会，可以整合自己，但为时已晚。这就是为什么少数民族会决定脱离匈牙利。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Exactly! The root cause is that when all european powers started centralizing and inreasing mobility and trade helped natural assimilation, HUngary was basically a province of Habsburg Empire, with a feudal society of serfs and land onwers. By the time Hungary had a short grasp of air to consolidate from 1868–1914, it was too late. And that is why the minorities could decide to break away
完全正确！根本原因是，当所有欧洲列强开始集权，增强流动性和贸易以促进了自然同化的时候，匈牙利基本上是哈布斯堡帝国的一个省，一个农奴和地主构成的封建社会。
1868年至1914年，匈牙利有了短暂的喘息机会，可以整合自己，但为时已晚。这就是为什么少数民族会决定脱离匈牙利。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Jules Morad
Why did the Habsburgs fail to assimilate their minorities? Why did England fail to assimilate Ireland? They both survived into the modern age yet failed to do it.
为什么哈布斯堡家族没能同化他们的少数民族?为什么英国不能同化爱尔兰?他们都活到了现代，但都没有成功。
Why did the Habsburgs fail to assimilate their minorities? Why did England fail to assimilate Ireland? They both survived into the modern age yet failed to do it.
为什么哈布斯堡家族没能同化他们的少数民族?为什么英国不能同化爱尔兰?他们都活到了现代，但都没有成功。
Friedrich Daniel
Habsburgs were a monarchy. They were not interested in creating a nation state. Nation states are essetnial for constitutional monarchies and republics.
England did eradicate much of the original irish language. But difference in religion, being an island with limited english population influx, and strong irish nationalism was the main reason the irish kept their identity. (Except N-Ireland)
Point being: when England, France and Spain were radically assimilating minority languages in the 18th century, Hungarians were under Habsburg dominion, who kept latin the official langauge, introduced german as well in administration, but allowed minority langauges to be spoken unofficially and left the church langauge unchanged, and did not eradicate protestant or orthodox church. This status remained until 1920, even though attempts of magyarization did happen under the dual monarchy period.
哈布斯堡王朝是君主制国家。他们对建立一个民族国家不感兴趣。民族国家对于君主立宪制和共和政体来说是必不可少的。
而英格兰确实消灭了许多原始的爱尔兰语。但在宗教上的差异不大，并且作为一座岛屿，英格兰人的涌入很有限，强烈的爱尔兰民族主义是爱尔兰人保持其身份的主要原因。(北爱尔兰除外)
要点是:当英国、法国和西班牙在18世纪从根本上同化少数民族语言时，匈牙利人处于哈布斯堡王朝的统治之下，哈布斯堡王朝保留了拉丁语为官方语言，同时在行政管理中引入了德语，但允许少数民族的语言在非正式场合使用，教会语言没有改变，也没有消灭新教或东正教。这种状态一直保持到1920年，尽管在双重君主制时期确实发生了匈牙利化的尝试。
Habsburgs were a monarchy. They were not interested in creating a nation state. Nation states are essetnial for constitutional monarchies and republics.
England did eradicate much of the original irish language. But difference in religion, being an island with limited english population influx, and strong irish nationalism was the main reason the irish kept their identity. (Except N-Ireland)
Point being: when England, France and Spain were radically assimilating minority languages in the 18th century, Hungarians were under Habsburg dominion, who kept latin the official langauge, introduced german as well in administration, but allowed minority langauges to be spoken unofficially and left the church langauge unchanged, and did not eradicate protestant or orthodox church. This status remained until 1920, even though attempts of magyarization did happen under the dual monarchy period.
哈布斯堡王朝是君主制国家。他们对建立一个民族国家不感兴趣。民族国家对于君主立宪制和共和政体来说是必不可少的。
而英格兰确实消灭了许多原始的爱尔兰语。但在宗教上的差异不大，并且作为一座岛屿，英格兰人的涌入很有限，强烈的爱尔兰民族主义是爱尔兰人保持其身份的主要原因。(北爱尔兰除外)
要点是:当英国、法国和西班牙在18世纪从根本上同化少数民族语言时，匈牙利人处于哈布斯堡王朝的统治之下，哈布斯堡王朝保留了拉丁语为官方语言，同时在行政管理中引入了德语，但允许少数民族的语言在非正式场合使用，教会语言没有改变，也没有消灭新教或东正教。这种状态一直保持到1920年，尽管在双重君主制时期确实发生了匈牙利化的尝试。
Jules Morad
I think there is also the problem of critical mass. While it is relatively easy to assimilate small and disparate minorities, assimilating large distinct and geographically compact population centres is much harder. France and to a lesser extent Spain didn't have that problem. The Hapsburg and the Hungarians did.
我认为还有核心群体的问题。同化小而不同的少数民族相对容易，但同化大而不同且地理位置紧凑的人口就困难得多。
法国和西班牙都没有这个问题，哈布斯堡和匈牙利人有。
I think there is also the problem of critical mass. While it is relatively easy to assimilate small and disparate minorities, assimilating large distinct and geographically compact population centres is much harder. France and to a lesser extent Spain didn't have that problem. The Hapsburg and the Hungarians did.
我认为还有核心群体的问题。同化小而不同的少数民族相对容易，但同化大而不同且地理位置紧凑的人口就困难得多。
法国和西班牙都没有这个问题，哈布斯堡和匈牙利人有。
Milan Redele
The Habsburg empire was extremely multi-ethnic compared to other European empires, it was just not possible to create a nation state out of it. Besides the Hungarians, who were probably the best organized and most problematic minorities there were northern Slavs, southern Slavs, Romanians and of course all kinds of German settlers all over the empire. Four language groups with zillion dialects. When in 1868 the Habsburgs decided to grant the Hungarians an exceptional status among the minorities (followed with forced Hungarianization) it is no wonder that the others were pissed off and the end was just a matter of time. Had the Habsburgs decided to create a confederation instead with states created along ethnical borders back then things might have turned out completely different. I have lived in both Belgium and Switzerland, both of them only having two language/cultural groups (romance and germanic) with highly separated government structures along ethnic boundaries and still there are tensions. So it’s Franz Joseph’s fault after all :)
与其他欧洲帝国相比，哈布斯堡帝国是一个多民族的帝国，要在此基础上建立一个民族国家是不可能的。匈牙利人可能是最有组织，最成问题的少数民族，除此之外还有北部的斯拉夫人，南部的斯拉夫人，罗马尼亚人，当然还有遍布帝国的德国移居者。
有无数方言的四个语言群。1868年，哈布斯堡王朝决定给予匈牙利人在少数民族中的特殊地位(随后又强迫其他族裔匈牙利化)。难怪其他人都很生气，这只是个时间问题。如果哈布斯堡家族决定建立一个联邦国度，沿着民族边界建立几个州，那么事情可能会完全不同。
我曾在比利时和瑞士生活过，这两个国家都只有两种语言/文化群体(罗曼语和日耳曼语)，政府结构沿着种族边界高度分离，但紧张局势依然存在。所以这一定是Franz Joseph的错/笑
（注：Franz Joseph——生于1830年8月18日, 卒于1916年11月21日, 奥地利皇帝(1848-1916)兼匈牙利国王(1867-1916)，他将帝国划分为双重君主制，奥地利和匈牙利作为平等的伙伴共存（也即我们现在所称的“奥匈帝国”）。1879年，他与普鲁士领导的德国结成联盟;1914年，他向塞尔维亚发出最后通牒，导致奥地利和德国卷入第一次世界大战。）
The Habsburg empire was extremely multi-ethnic compared to other European empires, it was just not possible to create a nation state out of it. Besides the Hungarians, who were probably the best organized and most problematic minorities there were northern Slavs, southern Slavs, Romanians and of course all kinds of German settlers all over the empire. Four language groups with zillion dialects. When in 1868 the Habsburgs decided to grant the Hungarians an exceptional status among the minorities (followed with forced Hungarianization) it is no wonder that the others were pissed off and the end was just a matter of time. Had the Habsburgs decided to create a confederation instead with states created along ethnical borders back then things might have turned out completely different. I have lived in both Belgium and Switzerland, both of them only having two language/cultural groups (romance and germanic) with highly separated government structures along ethnic boundaries and still there are tensions. So it’s Franz Joseph’s fault after all :)
与其他欧洲帝国相比，哈布斯堡帝国是一个多民族的帝国，要在此基础上建立一个民族国家是不可能的。匈牙利人可能是最有组织，最成问题的少数民族，除此之外还有北部的斯拉夫人，南部的斯拉夫人，罗马尼亚人，当然还有遍布帝国的德国移居者。
有无数方言的四个语言群。1868年，哈布斯堡王朝决定给予匈牙利人在少数民族中的特殊地位(随后又强迫其他族裔匈牙利化)。难怪其他人都很生气，这只是个时间问题。如果哈布斯堡家族决定建立一个联邦国度，沿着民族边界建立几个州，那么事情可能会完全不同。
我曾在比利时和瑞士生活过，这两个国家都只有两种语言/文化群体(罗曼语和日耳曼语)，政府结构沿着种族边界高度分离，但紧张局势依然存在。所以这一定是Franz Joseph的错/笑
（注：Franz Joseph——生于1830年8月18日, 卒于1916年11月21日, 奥地利皇帝(1848-1916)兼匈牙利国王(1867-1916)，他将帝国划分为双重君主制，奥地利和匈牙利作为平等的伙伴共存（也即我们现在所称的“奥匈帝国”）。1879年，他与普鲁士领导的德国结成联盟;1914年，他向塞尔维亚发出最后通牒，导致奥地利和德国卷入第一次世界大战。）
Friedrich Daniel
I think you expect too much foresight from Franz Joseph. In his time nationalism was still new and a state based on language was just a liberal nonsense. The definition of a state (a monarchy to be specific) was based on the historic institutions such as the crown, the Church, the collective identity of the leading class, the properties they held, the natural geographical and economic borders of the carpathian basin. Minorities had no such institutions or traditions of a state, they never had. Some had their own Church, such as Orthodox Romanians, and a notion of an independent Transylvanian Principality, but even that was more of a successor of the Hungarian Kingdom than a Romanian state .
The federation would only have been possible if while leading class and the Hungarian population puts away its own nationalism, which was also a relatively new ideology, and supports the drastic reorganization of a 1000 year old state.
And we have to mention that even a federation would not have been a full proof solution to the problem of the expansionist policy of the Old Romanian Kingdom, who constantly seeked to grab Transylvania, or Serbia that also had minorities in Vojvodina. Romanians even today in the EU find the sekler autonomy a national threat.
Creating states of a federation would have been very risky. Normally you only look for such a drastic solution when it is your last option. But this was not the case before ww1. The monarchy was much more stable than they depict it today. There were tensions but not instability. Spain today is more unstable than the monarchy was. Do you see any chance that Spain will be a federation?
我觉得你对Franz Joseph期望太高了。在他的时代，民族主义还很新鲜，建立在语言基础上的国家只是自由主义的无稽之谈。
国家的定义(具体来说是君主制)是由诸如王冠、教会、领导阶级的集体身份、他们所拥有的财产、喀尔巴阡盆地的自然地理和经济边界等历史制度决定的。
少数民族没有这样的制度或传统，他们从来没有。有些人有自己的教会，比如罗马尼亚东正教，还有一个独立的特兰西瓦尼亚公国的概念，但它更像是匈牙利王国的继承者，而不是罗马尼亚。
只有当领导阶级和匈牙利人民放下自己的民族主义(这也是一种相对较新的意识形态)，支持对一个有1000年历史的国家进行激烈重组时，联邦才有可能成立。我们必须指出，即使建立联邦也不能完全解决老罗马尼亚王国扩张主义政策的问题，老罗马尼亚王国不断寻求占领特兰西瓦尼亚或塞尔维亚以及在伏伊伏丁那的少数族裔。即使是今天在欧盟的罗马尼亚人也认为塞克勒自治是一种国家威胁。
在联邦中建立州是非常危险的。通常情况下，你只会在最后选择的时候才会寻找这种极端的解决方案。但在一战之前，情况并非如此。当时的君主制比他们今天描绘的要稳定得多。局势紧张，但并非不稳定。今天的西班牙比君主制时代更加不稳定。你觉得西班牙有可能成为一个联邦吗?
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I think you expect too much foresight from Franz Joseph. In his time nationalism was still new and a state based on language was just a liberal nonsense. The definition of a state (a monarchy to be specific) was based on the historic institutions such as the crown, the Church, the collective identity of the leading class, the properties they held, the natural geographical and economic borders of the carpathian basin. Minorities had no such institutions or traditions of a state, they never had. Some had their own Church, such as Orthodox Romanians, and a notion of an independent Transylvanian Principality, but even that was more of a successor of the Hungarian Kingdom than a Romanian state .
The federation would only have been possible if while leading class and the Hungarian population puts away its own nationalism, which was also a relatively new ideology, and supports the drastic reorganization of a 1000 year old state.
And we have to mention that even a federation would not have been a full proof solution to the problem of the expansionist policy of the Old Romanian Kingdom, who constantly seeked to grab Transylvania, or Serbia that also had minorities in Vojvodina. Romanians even today in the EU find the sekler autonomy a national threat.
Creating states of a federation would have been very risky. Normally you only look for such a drastic solution when it is your last option. But this was not the case before ww1. The monarchy was much more stable than they depict it today. There were tensions but not instability. Spain today is more unstable than the monarchy was. Do you see any chance that Spain will be a federation?
我觉得你对Franz Joseph期望太高了。在他的时代，民族主义还很新鲜，建立在语言基础上的国家只是自由主义的无稽之谈。
国家的定义(具体来说是君主制)是由诸如王冠、教会、领导阶级的集体身份、他们所拥有的财产、喀尔巴阡盆地的自然地理和经济边界等历史制度决定的。
少数民族没有这样的制度或传统，他们从来没有。有些人有自己的教会，比如罗马尼亚东正教，还有一个独立的特兰西瓦尼亚公国的概念，但它更像是匈牙利王国的继承者，而不是罗马尼亚。
只有当领导阶级和匈牙利人民放下自己的民族主义(这也是一种相对较新的意识形态)，支持对一个有1000年历史的国家进行激烈重组时，联邦才有可能成立。我们必须指出，即使建立联邦也不能完全解决老罗马尼亚王国扩张主义政策的问题，老罗马尼亚王国不断寻求占领特兰西瓦尼亚或塞尔维亚以及在伏伊伏丁那的少数族裔。即使是今天在欧盟的罗马尼亚人也认为塞克勒自治是一种国家威胁。
在联邦中建立州是非常危险的。通常情况下，你只会在最后选择的时候才会寻找这种极端的解决方案。但在一战之前，情况并非如此。当时的君主制比他们今天描绘的要稳定得多。局势紧张，但并非不稳定。今天的西班牙比君主制时代更加不稳定。你觉得西班牙有可能成为一个联邦吗?
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Gabor Czirjak
I din’t believe my eyes ! Nobody even mention the real cause why Hungary lost 2/3 of territory and 63% of her population ! Everybody repeat the Romanian, Slovakian, Serbian explanation. They try to justify there land stilling using the nationalist explication, and NOT a word about the ANTANT. The Antant created Great Romania, Chehoslovakia, Yugoslavia. The English and the French used their Colonial Empire , bringing in the European War army;s from Africa , India, New Zeland, Australia Canada, Asia etc. but still was not enough , they looked for other country;s to bring in the war on their side. In 1915 they worked on Italy, promising them not only South Tirol from Austria, but territory in Turkey . Was more Italian in that territory then Turks ? In 1916 they try Romania, promising them Transilvania, Bulgarian and Russian territory , was easy for England and France, they promise somebody else territory, not their own ! And at the time of the Trianon treaty , they draw the borders for the knew states, who they created from Hungarian territory . They didn’t know and didn’t care who live on that territory . For them was only territory. And was not theirs ! Do you think they knew the percentage of Romanians in Transilvania ? Or they cared about the nationals right to self rule ? They who brutally put down every resistant to their colonial oppression ,countless revolt in India and other colonies . Do you really believe they been concerned about the nationality’s in Hungary ? In Romanian history books, you don’t find the treaty Romania signed with the Antant, where they promised them territory’s if they enter in the war on their side. They bribed Romania with the territory’s.Poor Romanians, many of them believe , their country entered the war because of their brothers in Transilvania . If so, why they did not entered the war when it started ? Why they had to wait 2 years, until the Antant came up with the bribe ? How Churchill said, after become the ally of Stalin.—If Hitler invade the hell, I would ally with the Devil ! ( England has no friends, only interests )
我真不敢相信我的眼睛！根本没有人提到匈牙利失去三分之二的领土和63%人口的真正原因！
大家都在重复罗马尼亚人，斯洛伐克人，塞尔维亚人一类的解释。他们试图用民族主义的解释来为他们的土地辩护，而对“三国协约”（Triple Entente）只字未提。正是因为“三国协约”由此创建了大罗马尼亚（Great Romania），切霍斯洛伐克（Chehoslovakia）和南斯拉夫。英国和法国利用他们的殖民帝国，把来自非洲、印度、新西兰、澳大利亚、加拿大、亚洲的殖民军队引入欧洲战争。
（注：三国同盟是德、奥、意三国 ；三国协约是英、法、俄三国，目的就是为了重新瓜分世界。由于各国种种矛盾，引发战争，从而形成三国同盟和三国协约。
形成三国同盟和三国协约的矛盾国和其矛盾有：1．法德矛盾（普法战争的后果问题）；2．主要矛盾英德矛盾（世界市场和殖民地问题）；3．俄奥矛盾（巴尔干问题）。）
但这还不够，他们开始将其他国家引入战争并站在自己这边。1915年，他们怂恿意大利，不仅许诺从奥地利得到南泰洛，而且还许诺土耳其的领土。这些地方的意大利人比土耳其人更多吗？
1916年，他们动员罗马尼亚，承诺给他们特兰西瓦尼亚，保加利亚和俄罗斯的领土。张张嘴怎么说都行，毕竟不是从英国和法国而是从他国领土割让土地！
在特里亚农条约下，他们划定了如今所熟知的国家的边界，这些国家都成立于匈牙利的领土上。他们不知道也不关心谁住在那片土地上。对他们来说，这只有领土，并且不是自己的。
（注：特里亚农条约（Treaty of Trianon），又译作特里阿农条约，是1920年协约国集团和匈牙利签订的一项制定匈牙利边界的条约。）
你觉得他们知道特兰西瓦尼亚有多少罗马尼亚人吗?你觉得他们会关心这些国民的自治权利吗? 他们残酷地镇压了每一次反抗他们殖民的压迫斗争，以及无数次在印度和其他殖民地掀起的压迫斗争。你真的相信他们会在乎匈牙利人的国籍吗?在罗马尼亚的历史书里，你找不到罗马尼亚和“三国协约”的人签署的条约，后者承诺，如果他们站在自己的一边参战，就会得到领土。
许多可怜的罗马尼亚人相信，他们的国家参战是为了他们在特兰西瓦尼亚的兄弟。如果是这样，为什么战争开始时他们没有参战? 为什么他们要等2年，直到“三国协约”动员并贿赂? 在成为斯大林的盟友之后，丘吉尔曾说：如果希特勒入侵地狱，我将与魔鬼结盟！(英国没有朋友，只有利益)
I din’t believe my eyes ! Nobody even mention the real cause why Hungary lost 2/3 of territory and 63% of her population ! Everybody repeat the Romanian, Slovakian, Serbian explanation. They try to justify there land stilling using the nationalist explication, and NOT a word about the ANTANT. The Antant created Great Romania, Chehoslovakia, Yugoslavia. The English and the French used their Colonial Empire , bringing in the European War army;s from Africa , India, New Zeland, Australia Canada, Asia etc. but still was not enough , they looked for other country;s to bring in the war on their side. In 1915 they worked on Italy, promising them not only South Tirol from Austria, but territory in Turkey . Was more Italian in that territory then Turks ? In 1916 they try Romania, promising them Transilvania, Bulgarian and Russian territory , was easy for England and France, they promise somebody else territory, not their own ! And at the time of the Trianon treaty , they draw the borders for the knew states, who they created from Hungarian territory . They didn’t know and didn’t care who live on that territory . For them was only territory. And was not theirs ! Do you think they knew the percentage of Romanians in Transilvania ? Or they cared about the nationals right to self rule ? They who brutally put down every resistant to their colonial oppression ,countless revolt in India and other colonies . Do you really believe they been concerned about the nationality’s in Hungary ? In Romanian history books, you don’t find the treaty Romania signed with the Antant, where they promised them territory’s if they enter in the war on their side. They bribed Romania with the territory’s.Poor Romanians, many of them believe , their country entered the war because of their brothers in Transilvania . If so, why they did not entered the war when it started ? Why they had to wait 2 years, until the Antant came up with the bribe ? How Churchill said, after become the ally of Stalin.—If Hitler invade the hell, I would ally with the Devil ! ( England has no friends, only interests )
我真不敢相信我的眼睛！根本没有人提到匈牙利失去三分之二的领土和63%人口的真正原因！
大家都在重复罗马尼亚人，斯洛伐克人，塞尔维亚人一类的解释。他们试图用民族主义的解释来为他们的土地辩护，而对“三国协约”（Triple Entente）只字未提。正是因为“三国协约”由此创建了大罗马尼亚（Great Romania），切霍斯洛伐克（Chehoslovakia）和南斯拉夫。英国和法国利用他们的殖民帝国，把来自非洲、印度、新西兰、澳大利亚、加拿大、亚洲的殖民军队引入欧洲战争。
（注：三国同盟是德、奥、意三国 ；三国协约是英、法、俄三国，目的就是为了重新瓜分世界。由于各国种种矛盾，引发战争，从而形成三国同盟和三国协约。
形成三国同盟和三国协约的矛盾国和其矛盾有：1．法德矛盾（普法战争的后果问题）；2．主要矛盾英德矛盾（世界市场和殖民地问题）；3．俄奥矛盾（巴尔干问题）。）
但这还不够，他们开始将其他国家引入战争并站在自己这边。1915年，他们怂恿意大利，不仅许诺从奥地利得到南泰洛，而且还许诺土耳其的领土。这些地方的意大利人比土耳其人更多吗？
1916年，他们动员罗马尼亚，承诺给他们特兰西瓦尼亚，保加利亚和俄罗斯的领土。张张嘴怎么说都行，毕竟不是从英国和法国而是从他国领土割让土地！
在特里亚农条约下，他们划定了如今所熟知的国家的边界，这些国家都成立于匈牙利的领土上。他们不知道也不关心谁住在那片土地上。对他们来说，这只有领土，并且不是自己的。
（注：特里亚农条约（Treaty of Trianon），又译作特里阿农条约，是1920年协约国集团和匈牙利签订的一项制定匈牙利边界的条约。）
你觉得他们知道特兰西瓦尼亚有多少罗马尼亚人吗?你觉得他们会关心这些国民的自治权利吗? 他们残酷地镇压了每一次反抗他们殖民的压迫斗争，以及无数次在印度和其他殖民地掀起的压迫斗争。你真的相信他们会在乎匈牙利人的国籍吗?在罗马尼亚的历史书里，你找不到罗马尼亚和“三国协约”的人签署的条约，后者承诺，如果他们站在自己的一边参战，就会得到领土。
许多可怜的罗马尼亚人相信，他们的国家参战是为了他们在特兰西瓦尼亚的兄弟。如果是这样，为什么战争开始时他们没有参战? 为什么他们要等2年，直到“三国协约”动员并贿赂? 在成为斯大林的盟友之后，丘吉尔曾说：如果希特勒入侵地狱，我将与魔鬼结盟！(英国没有朋友，只有利益)
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