网帖翻译

Jean Brandt
Jordan Peterson says that the Nazis literally used factory pest extermination methods on the people they put in the camps, including Jews, because they viewed them as a pestilence on their nation.

乔丹·彼得森说，纳粹对集中营里的人，包括犹太人，使用了工厂消灭害虫的方法，因为他们把这些人视为他们国家的瘟疫。

Alex Mann
He’s incorrect.
Look I like Peterson, I honestly do. But Peterson is just not a historian- he is a clinical psychologist and a very good one at that.
Germany didn’t start by using cyanide- that kinda came about organically. First Jews were sent to ghettos and the first “extermination” efforts came from the Einsatzgruppen (mobile killing squads).
The gas chambers became an experimental method and then when they worked they were fully implemented.
Now the reason was because of conspiracy theories.
Hitler believed the Jews were behind communism and had conspired to lose Germany WW1 and destroy the Aryan race. He viewed the Jews as the enemy.

他错了。
听着，我喜欢彼得森，真的喜欢。但彼得森不是历史学家——他是一位临床心理学家，而且是一位非常优秀的临床心理学家。
德国一开始并没有使用氰化物——一种有机物。第一批犹太人被送往贫民区，第一批“灭绝”行动由特别行动小组（流动杀人小队）执行。
毒气室成为了一种实验方法，当它们起作用时就完全实施了。
希特勒认为犹太人是共产主义的幕后黑手，并密谋在第一次世界大战中让德国失败，摧毁雅利安人。他把犹太人视为敌人。

Paul Jones
He has a point, the Nazis didn't view them as human, they looked at them as if they were cockroaches. It is the ultimate dehumanising.

他说得有道理，纳粹不把他们当人看，他们把犹太人当蟑螂看。这极其没人性。

…………………………
Doug Manning
How did a small band of Einsatzgruppen and their Ukrainian collaborators convince 33,771 Jews to assemble in Kyiv and then lead them into the Babi Yar forest where they were executed? Why wasn’t there resistance or at least mass pandemonium?
The answer? Small steps.
First you post signs ordering the Jews to assemble for relocation, otherwise they will be found and shot. They’ve heard stories of Jews in other countries being relocated, so they assemble rather than face death for staying behind.
Then they’re ordered to march. Those too weak or disabled to keep up are shot dead. So you keep marching.
You’re led to the forest, which seems weird, but you hold out hope that what the guys with machine guns told you about relocation is true.

一小队特别行动小组和他们的乌克兰合作者是如何说服33771名犹太人在基辅集会，然后把他们带到巴巴雅森林处决的?为什么没有抵抗或者至少没有大规模的混乱?
答案是什么？几个小步骤。
首先，你张贴告示，命令犹太人聚集起来重新安置，否则他们会被发现并枪毙。他们听说其他国家的犹太人被重新安置，所以他们聚集起来，而不是因为留在那里而面临死亡。
然后他们被命令行军。那些太弱或残疾而无法跟上的人会被枪杀。所以你只得继续前进。
你被带到了森林里，这看起来很不寻常，但你还是希望那些拿着机枪的人告诉你的关于搬迁的事情是真的。

Then you’re ordered to strip off your clothing. Now you know you’ve been lied to. One of your group tries to flee and he is gunned down like a dog. You don’t want to die like that, so you strip. In the distance you hear the volleys of gunfire. You try to wrap your head around the realization that they intend to kill all of you. But why? You’re confused, terrified, naked, and shivering. You grab the hands of your family members, knowing these will be your last moments. All you can do is try to comfort one another. There is no escape. A mass resistance at this point could overwhelm your captors, but that takes coordination. You see a woman refuse to remove her clothes; she is beaten to death right in front of you.

然后命令你脱掉衣服。现在你知道你被骗了。你们中的一个人试图逃跑，却被像狗一样枪杀了。你不想那样死去，所以你脱光衣服。你可以听到远处的枪声。你试图让自己意识到他们想要杀了你们所有人。但为什么呢?你困惑、恐惧、赤裸、颤抖。你握住家人的手，知道这将是你们生命的最后时刻。你们所能做的就是互相安慰。没有办法逃脱。在这个时候大规模的抵抗可能会压倒捉拿你们的人，但这需要协调。你看到一个女人不肯脱衣服；她就在你面前被打死了。

You march with a column to the execution site where you see the bottom of a ravine littered with corpses. You are numbed by fear. They tell you to stand still while the guns are readied, and you do it. Up until this point you’ve hoped for a miracle, but now you just want the nightmare to end. It will in a moment.
This was the experience of Dina Pronicheva, one of the few to survive the Babi Yar massacre by playing dead after the bullet intended for her missed its target. She later crawled up through the soil that covered the corpses and escaped. It was her testimony at the Subsequent Nuremberg Trials that helped bring those responsible to justice.

你跟着一支纵队行进到行刑地点，你看到峡谷底部到处都是尸体。你因恐惧而麻木。枪准备好的时候他们让你别动，你照做了。在此之前，你一直希望奇迹出现，但现在你只想结束噩梦。一会儿就好了。
这就是迪娜·普罗尼切娃(Dina Pronicheva)的经历，她是为数不多的几个在巴巴雅森林大屠杀中幸存下来的人之一，因为本来要射向她的子弹没有击中目标，她就装死。后来，她从覆盖着尸体的泥土中爬了出来，逃了出来。正是她在后来的纽伦堡审判中的证词帮助将肇事者绳之以法。

Allan Richardson
One thing about the Ukranian collaborators: they had survived the Holodomor under Stalin (and a similar starvation/genocide under Lenin), so “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” logic drove them toward the Germans. After solidifying their power over Ukraine, the Germans began to kill Ukrainians also; they were just as Slavic as the Russians, so to the Nazis they were just as “inferior.”

关于乌克兰合作者的一件事是:他们在斯大林统治下的大屠杀(以及列宁统治下的类似饥饿/种族灭绝)中幸存了下来，所以“敌人的敌人就是我的朋友”的逻辑驱使他们向德国人投降。在巩固了对乌克兰的统治之后，德国人也开始杀害乌克兰人；他们和俄国人一样是斯拉夫人，所以对纳粹来说，他们同样是“下等人”。

After the war, as Germany itself and the countries occupied by Germany were liberated (in the case of Ukraine, reoccupied by the Red Army of the USSR) and denazified, the collaborators were brought to justice (mostly) and Nazi ideology became unthinkable. But Ukrainians still hated the Russian government, even after the USSR collapsed. Although some Nazi groups reorganized once it was allowed (Ukraine’s post-Soviet constitution affirms freedom of speech and peaceable assembly), the vast majority of Ukranians today hate both Nazism and Communism. And since Putin’s war started, they hate Putin’s policies (but not necessarily all Russian people).

战后，随着德国自身和被德国占领的国家被解放(比如乌克兰，被苏联红军重新占领)并被消除纳粹影响，合作者们(大部分)被绳之以法，纳粹意识形态变得难以想象。但乌克兰人仍然憎恨俄罗斯政府，甚至在苏联解体后也是如此。尽管一些纳粹组织在被允许后进行了重组(乌克兰的后苏联宪法确认了言论自由和和平集会)，但如今绝大多数乌克兰人既讨厌纳粹主义，也讨厌共产主义。而且自从普京发动战争以来，他们憎恨普京的政策(但不一定憎恨所有俄罗斯人)。

Charles E Rapin
The idea that the Germans and others in their thrall would remorselessly slaughter Jews and others they deemed not worth living resonates for me as the defining episode of modern society. I have never trusted mankind in general since the enormity of the regime's callousness and cruelty dawned on me.

德国人和其他被他们奴役的人会无情地屠杀犹太人和其他他们认为不值得活下去的人，在我看来，这是现代社会的标志性事件。自从我意识到这个政府的无情和残忍，我就再也不相信人类了。

Jose Lizano
Those guards talking the victims up, giving them hope of… a slave job… bothers me really bad…
What a bunch of assholes.

那些看守对受害者大谈特谈，给他们希望…让他们像奴隶一样工作…真让我烦透了。
真是一群混蛋。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

Eric Brody
Same stuff goes on today. Mandatory mask and vaccination and all. Government and pharmaceutical corporations lies and censors people and people want to believe what they aay

同样的事情今天还在发生。强制戴口罩和接种疫苗等等。政府和制药公司撒谎，审查人们，人们愿意相信他们所说的

Alex Mann
A mother arrives at Treblxa carrying her 6 month old child- the child is crying. A notorious Guard nicknamed Ivan the Terrible walks up to her, annoyed by the baby.
Ivan takes the baby from her, smashes it against a brick wall until it’s a pulp of bloody flesh, and then hands the corpse back to the mother. 15 minutes later the mother was dead from cyanide gas.
If you think that is in ANYWAY similar to mask mandates you are insane.

一位母亲带着6个月大的孩子来到特雷布林卡（译注：波兰东部一村庄），孩子在哭。一个绰号“可怕的伊凡”的臭名昭著的卫兵被婴儿惹恼了，走向她。
伊凡从她手里接过孩子，把他往砖墙上砸，直到变成一团血肉模糊，然后把尸体交还给母亲。15分钟后，母亲死于氰化物。
如果你认为这在某种程度上类似于口罩指令，那你一定疯了。

Joshua Cyrus
No comparison. Just get off this thread!

没有可比性。快离开这个帖子!

Babak Houssani
The level of arrogance and ignorance that it takes to compare your mask experience to those victims of the holocaust is beyond shameful. It’s disgusting.

把你戴口罩的感受和那些大屠杀的受害者相比，这种傲慢和无知的程度，已非无耻所能形容。太恶心了。

Marco Bianchi
Well, there were also Jews that actually helped the guards to run the camp and to make the whole process smooth…

其实，也有犹太人帮助警卫管理集中营，使整个（屠杀）过程顺利进行……

Linda Johnston
Hoping to be seen as too useful to exterminate Just trying to survive

（他们）希望自己用处大到足以免于被杀，努力求生罢了。

Ricky Keegan
And yet we still have neo-Nazi groups here in America Who deny the holocaust happened despite the photos & evidence! And how many of their fathers fought against the Nazis in World War II !?!? What a disgrace they are to Democracy, Freedom & the Veterans who died to defeat Nazi Germany!

然而我们在美国仍然有新纳粹组织，他们无视照片和证据，否认发生过大屠杀!他们中有多少人的父亲在二战中与纳粹作战!?!?
他们真是民主、自由以及为打败纳粹德国而牺牲的老兵们的耻辱!

……………………………

二

Jon Mixon
In the same manner that prisons containing several thousand inmates and only several hundred guards are run today:
1.People defer to authority - Consider this: Most of the people in prisons respond poorly to authority on the outside. Yet when they get to prison, they obediently get up when they told to, allow themselves to be counted, are told when and where to eat and exercise and then returned to their cells at the end of the day. And these are ANTI-SOCIAL human beings. Most of the people who were gassed were simple villagers or city dwellers who were normal everyday people. They would defer to authority rather than risking getting themselves into "trouble" as incongruous as that may sound.

就像今天监狱里有几千名囚犯，只有几百名狱警一样：
1.人们服从权威——想想这个:监狱里的大多数人对外面的权威反应很差。然而，当他们进入监狱时，他们服从命令起床，允许自己被点名，被告知何时何地吃饭和锻炼，然后在一天结束时返回牢房。而这些都是反社会的人。大多数被毒气杀害的人是普通的村民或城市居民，他们只是普通人。他们会听从权威，而不是冒险让自己陷入“麻烦”，尽管这听起来很矛盾。

2.People who caused problems were beaten or shot - Even after the horrors that the people sent to death camps had seen before arriving, the sight of a person being violently assaulted or murdered in front of them probably had a profound effect upon them and made maintaining order relatively easy.
3.The people were tired, hungry and dehydrated - Many had been on a train for days before arriving at the camps .People who were/are in that condition aren't going to give you a lot problems. If they do, then see 1 & 2.
4.The guards were experienced at their jobs - After handling dozens or hundreds of people daily, you know what needs to be done. The guards (as perverse as it sounds) actually became skilled at herding people to their deaths. This allowed them to manage the numbers of people that they did with minimal or no problems.

2.制造麻烦的人被殴打或射杀。即使被送进死亡集中营的人在到达之前已经目睹了恐怖，看到一个人在他们面前被暴力攻击或杀掉，也可能对他们产生深远的影响，使维持秩序变得相对容易。
3.这些人又累又饿又脱水——许多人在到达集中营前坐了好几天的火车。那种情况下的人不会给你带来什么麻烦。如果他们闹事，那么就看上面两条。
4.这些警卫工作经验丰富。在每天处理几十或数百人之后，你知道需要做什么。这些警卫(听起来很反常)实际上很擅长把人赶向死亡。这使得他们能够管理他们所要管理的人数，而很少或不出问题。

5.No one expects (even today) that they are going to be led to a mass execution - The overwhelming majority of people even today don't believe that they are going to be killed, even when the evidence is directly in front of them. Regardless of the sights (bodies had to be laying out in the open, rats and flies must have been everywhere) and the smells (which would have been nauseating) people must have still clung to a shred of hope that they would somehow escape this. Self-delusion is one of the key tools that allows any prison to work. If people stopped fooling themselves, then prisons would be even more dangerous as people with nothing to lose tried to escape or kill their warders.
Understanding how people think and what motivates them is central to any prison anywhere. Whether it is a city lockup here in the US, or a death camp in Eastern Europe in the 1940s, if you can control people's mind, then you can control their actions.

5.(即使在今天)没有人预料他们会被大规模处决——即使在今天，绝大多数人不相信他们会被杀害，即使证据直接摆在他们面前。不管眼前的景象(尸体肯定躺在露天，老鼠和苍蝇肯定到处都是)和气味(会让人恶心)，人们一定仍然抱着一丝希望，希望自己能逃脱。自我欺骗是让任何监狱运作的关键工具之一。如果人们停止欺骗自己，那么监狱将会更加危险，因为没有什么可失去的人会试图逃跑或杀死看守。
了解人们的思维方式和动机对任何地方的监狱来说都是至关重要的。无论是美国的城市监狱，还是20世纪40年代东欧的死亡集中营，如果你能控制人们的思想，那么你就能控制他们的行为。
评论
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

Keith Shannon
There's one thing on point 5. At many of the Nazi death camps, there was a layer of deception; the very same rooms, and even the same plumbing, used for the prisoners' showers was used to gas them. A group of people chosen to be murdered would go through exactly the same process as a group chosen for the work camps, and if you survived the initial decision, you would go through much the same process every time you got a shower (the major changes being your hair would still be short and you'd be dressed in camp clothing instead of what you still had from the outside world when you first arrived). It's much the same as a mock execution; people never really knew which way it was going to go for them when they went into the brausebad.

关于第5点补充一下。在许多纳粹死亡集中营，有一层骗局，囚犯洗澡时使用的房间，甚至管道，都被用来对他们施放毒气。被选去杀掉的一组人会经历和被选去劳动营的一组人完全一样的过程，如果你挺过了初始裁决，你每次洗澡都还会经历同样的过程(主要的变化是你的头发还是短的，你会穿着集中营服，而不是你第一次来的时候从外面穿来的衣服)。这和模拟处决差不多；当人们走进淋浴房时，他们永远不知道会发生什么。

Jon Mixon
The "layers of deception" were only necessary (or useful for that matter) when they first started to ship people to the camps. After a few months, it was more artifice than anything else.
Why?
1. The Nazi didn't bother to disguise the smell of the camps.
2. The guards on the trains didn't bother to edit their comments (Who were the prisoners going to tell?)
3. The trains reached a terminus at the camps. There were no tracks leading away from the camps, as it was the "end of the line."
4. The adults could see that the facilities were they arrived were clearly too small for as many people as had arrived.
5. The Nazis barely bothered to hide the piles of shoes, baggage and clothing from the new arrivals.
The deception portion of the camps was played up at Nuremberg to make the Nazis seem even more monstrous. The simple fact was that after a few months, when it became clear that the camps were "working" they simply didn't care what new prisoners thought.

只有当他们第一次开始把人送到集中营时，“层层欺骗”才有必要(或有用)。几个月过后，这更像是一种诡计。
为什么？
1. 纳粹没有刻意掩饰集中营中的气味。
2. 火车上的警卫都懒得修改他们的话术(囚犯们又能告诉谁呢?)
3.火车到达了集中营的终点站。没有离开营地的痕迹，因为那是“终点站”。
4. 大人们可以看出，他们到达后的设施显然太小了，容纳不了这么多人。
5. 纳粹毫不费力地把成堆的鞋子、行李和衣服藏起来，不让新来的人看到。
集中营的欺骗部分在纽伦堡审判中被大肆渲染，使纳粹看起来更可怕。一个简单的事实是，几个月后，当集中营畅通“运转”时，他们根本不在乎新囚犯的想法。

Roberto Vilar
weaponery was part of it too...

武器也发挥了部分作用……

Tom Ray
The Jewish men women and children were starved from the beginning. They were forced into ghettos and were starved and given no medical services for the diseases that were rampant from the horrible conditions. Soon they were in no condition to resist. They knew the score- when the bastard nazis came to round them up, those who couldn't survive the train ride were shot point blank. The children and old people were supposed to be shot point blank but some of the assholes were unlucky policemen, not shit nazis and couldn’t just murder people. That show of benevolence was rare. There was no doubt what the monsters were intending.

犹太男女老少从一开始就在挨饿。他们被迫进入贫民区，忍饥挨饿，因恶劣条件而猖獗的疾病得不到医治。很快他们就没有抵抗的能力了。他们知道事情的真相——纳粹混蛋来围捕他们的时候，那些没能在火车上活下来的人是被近距离射杀的。儿童和老人据说被近距离射杀，但有些混蛋是倒霉的警察，不是该死的纳粹，不能随便杀人。罕有仁慈表现。这些禽兽的意图毫无疑问。

Fiona Beswick
There were most certainly not 'bodies lying in the open'. The Germans prided themselves on the cleanliness and order of their camps. One woman unlucky enough to be in a Soviet camp and then the German Ravensbruck, was amazed at the difference. The pictures we see with piles of dead lying around are from the end of the war when typhus swept the camps, there was not enough food, and order broke down.
If they had left 'bodies in the open' the camps would have been wracked with disease in no time and there would have been every chance the people would have rebelled, having nothing to lose.

肯定没有“尸体扔在露天”。德国人对营地的整洁和秩序感到自豪。一个不幸的女人先是在苏联集中营，后来又在德国的拉文斯布吕克集中营，惊讶于两者的差异。我们看到的成堆的尸体躺在周围的照片，是战争结束时斑疹伤寒席卷集中营，那里没有足够的食物，秩序崩溃。
如果他们把“尸体扔在露天”，集中营很快就会被疾病摧毁，而且人们很有可能会造反，因为没有什么可失去的。

Jon Mixon
The camps were “racked by disease”, champ.
It’s how most of the prisoners who weren't gassed, died.

集中营“饱受疾病的折磨”。
大多数没被毒气毒死的囚犯都是这样死的。

Élise Petras
Your comments on the inmates rebelling only if disease spread through the camp is worrying. They already had nothing to lose, slated to be worked to death at concentration camps or killed outright at death camps, and thus it is implied by the fact that they didn’t rebel that they accepted their situation.
Why would disease be the tipping point, and not anything else?

你关于囚犯只有在疾病在整个集中营传播时才反抗的说法想多了。他们已经没有什么可失去的了，要么被安排在集中营里工作至死，要么在死亡集中营里被直接杀害，因此，他们没有反抗的事实暗示了他们接受了自己的处境。
为什么疾病是（反抗的）临界点，而不是其他因素?

Keith Shannon
Buchenwald was liberated by the prisoners themselves in a mass revolt a few days before the Allies showed up. The prisoners knew, through messages received with a crude radio, that the US Third Army was on their way, but they'd been stockpiling arms for months beforehand and were prepared to fight even if nobody was coming to help.

在盟军到来前几天，布痕瓦尔德（译注：德国地名）在一场大规模起义中被囚犯们自己解放了。囚犯们通过一个简陋的无线电接收到信息，知道美国第三军已经在路上了，但他们已经提前几个月储备了武器，即使没有人来帮助他们，他们也准备战斗。