欧盟圈讨论：各国的“第二城”是哪个？没能成为第一城的原因是？
正文翻译
（法国第二城马赛）
（法国第二城马赛）
New York City is the United States' leading city. One of Chicago's nicknames is "The Second City", although its certainly arguable undeniable that LA has been more influential for decades.
What is the "second city" of your country - never quite as important for some reason as your "first city", and why? Does it have a chip on its shoulder for not being first?
纽约市是美国的头号城市。芝加哥的其中一个绰号是“第二城”，尽管几十年来洛杉矶的影响力无疑更大，当然这也是可以讨论的。
你们国家的“第二城”是哪个，出于某种原因从未像你们的“第一城”那么重要，又是为什么？它是否因为没有成为第一城而感到委屈？
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What is the "second city" of your country - never quite as important for some reason as your "first city", and why? Does it have a chip on its shoulder for not being first?
纽约市是美国的头号城市。芝加哥的其中一个绰号是“第二城”，尽管几十年来洛杉矶的影响力无疑更大，当然这也是可以讨论的。
你们国家的“第二城”是哪个，出于某种原因从未像你们的“第一城”那么重要，又是为什么？它是否因为没有成为第一城而感到委屈？
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评论翻译
Axomio
That would be Porto. Porto metro area has around 1,7 million people living there, which is certainly less than Lisbon's 2,8 million, but still a lot of people. Due to its size Porto is obviously very important both economically and culturally, and it's even the place that gave Portugal its name. I'd also add that people from Porto are typically not very fond of Lisbon hahaha
（葡）会是波尔图。波尔图市区大约有170万居民，这当然比里斯本的280万人少，但这些人也算挺多了。鉴于规模，波尔图显然在经济和文化上都是非常重要的，这个地方甚至是葡萄牙国名的来源。我还想补充的是，波尔图人通常都不怎么喜欢里斯本哈哈哈。
That would be Porto. Porto metro area has around 1,7 million people living there, which is certainly less than Lisbon's 2,8 million, but still a lot of people. Due to its size Porto is obviously very important both economically and culturally, and it's even the place that gave Portugal its name. I'd also add that people from Porto are typically not very fond of Lisbon hahaha
（葡）会是波尔图。波尔图市区大约有170万居民，这当然比里斯本的280万人少，但这些人也算挺多了。鉴于规模，波尔图显然在经济和文化上都是非常重要的，这个地方甚至是葡萄牙国名的来源。我还想补充的是，波尔图人通常都不怎么喜欢里斯本哈哈哈。
Yep, as for why it falls short, probably a combination of consistent investment in Lisbon (as you'd expect, being the capital) and the fact Lisbon's been the capital of Portugal for more than 500 years at this point. Lisbon's central location and capital status means it draws in people from all over the country, giving it more population and continuing the cycle. A lot of people in Portugal have never been to Porto but you'll be hard pressed to find someone who's never been to Lisbon.
If something big's happening in Portugal, it's happening in Lisbon.
（回，葡）是的，至于为什么它成不了第一城，可能是因为对里斯本的持续投资（在你预料之内，毕竟是首都），以及里斯本作为葡萄牙的首都已经超过了五百年这个事实。里斯本所处的中心位置和首都地位，意味着它能吸引来自全国各地的人，使其拥有更多的人口并继续这样的循环。在葡萄牙，有很多人从来都没有去过波尔图，但你很难找到没有去过里斯本的人。
如果葡萄牙有什么大事发生，那一定会发生在里斯本。
If something big's happening in Portugal, it's happening in Lisbon.
（回，葡）是的，至于为什么它成不了第一城，可能是因为对里斯本的持续投资（在你预料之内，毕竟是首都），以及里斯本作为葡萄牙的首都已经超过了五百年这个事实。里斯本所处的中心位置和首都地位，意味着它能吸引来自全国各地的人，使其拥有更多的人口并继续这样的循环。在葡萄牙，有很多人从来都没有去过波尔图，但你很难找到没有去过里斯本的人。
如果葡萄牙有什么大事发生，那一定会发生在里斯本。
_MusicJunkie
None of them. Vienna is so disproportionately influential that there are no rivals. Vienna is too big for such a small country because it grew to be the capital of a significant empire.
During A-H empire times, this was different. Budapest and Prague would have been equivalents, with Budapest being more politically important, it essentially was the second capital.
（奥）没有一个是。维也纳的影响力大到不成比例，它根本没有对手。对这么小一个国家来说，维也纳太大了，因为它在一个举足轻重的帝国中生长为了首都。
在奥匈帝国时代，情况就不同了。布达佩斯和布拉格本该是等量齐观的，而布达佩斯在政治上更重要，基本上它就是第二首都。
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None of them. Vienna is so disproportionately influential that there are no rivals. Vienna is too big for such a small country because it grew to be the capital of a significant empire.
During A-H empire times, this was different. Budapest and Prague would have been equivalents, with Budapest being more politically important, it essentially was the second capital.
（奥）没有一个是。维也纳的影响力大到不成比例，它根本没有对手。对这么小一个国家来说，维也纳太大了，因为它在一个举足轻重的帝国中生长为了首都。
在奥匈帝国时代，情况就不同了。布达佩斯和布拉格本该是等量齐观的，而布达佩斯在政治上更重要，基本上它就是第二首都。
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11160704
Impossible to answer for Germany.
Besides the capital Berlin there are 4 cities that have great importance: Hamburg, Munich, cologne and Frankfurt.
None of them is clearly above the others. They all have their specific importance.
（德）对德国来说，这个问题是无法回答的。
除了首都柏林，举足轻重的还有四个城市。汉堡、慕尼黑、科隆和法兰克福。
它们中没有一个明显超越其他城市。它们都有其独特的重要性。
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Impossible to answer for Germany.
Besides the capital Berlin there are 4 cities that have great importance: Hamburg, Munich, cologne and Frankfurt.
None of them is clearly above the others. They all have their specific importance.
（德）对德国来说，这个问题是无法回答的。
除了首都柏林，举足轻重的还有四个城市。汉堡、慕尼黑、科隆和法兰克福。
它们中没有一个明显超越其他城市。它们都有其独特的重要性。
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Munich (and Bavaria generally, the state that we’re in) loves to claim they are the first. Many here see Berlin as a dirty, chaotic city that just happens to have all the government buildings. I won’t judge, and Berlin is clearly first
（回，德）慕尼黑（和整个巴伐利亚，也就是我们所在的州）很喜欢自称第一城。我们这里有很多人都认为柏林是一个肮脏、混乱的城市，恰好坐拥所有的政府大楼。对此我不作评判，柏林显然是第一城。
（回，德）慕尼黑（和整个巴伐利亚，也就是我们所在的州）很喜欢自称第一城。我们这里有很多人都认为柏林是一个肮脏、混乱的城市，恰好坐拥所有的政府大楼。对此我不作评判，柏林显然是第一城。
Having lived in Berlin for 4 years, my impression is that Berliners consider Munich to be the second city. Despite being an awful place filled with horrible people.
（回，英）在柏林生活了4年，我的印象是，在柏林人是把慕尼黑视为第二城的。尽管柏林是个很烂的地方，充满了烂人。
（回，英）在柏林生活了4年，我的印象是，在柏林人是把慕尼黑视为第二城的。尽管柏林是个很烂的地方，充满了烂人。
Don't listen to them. Hamburg number 1 major city!
-Totally not biased northerner
（回，德）别听他们的。汉堡才是第一大城市！
——一个完全没有偏见的北方人
-Totally not biased northerner
（回，德）别听他们的。汉堡才是第一大城市！
——一个完全没有偏见的北方人
The pride comes from being a so called "free city"/ "merchant Republic" since its founding in the middle ages. Even though Berlin is a city state in the modern federal system aswell, Hamburg is much more fierce in valuing the symbolism behind it.
（回）汉堡人的这种自豪感来自于，它从中世纪建城以来就是一个所谓的“自由城市“/“商人共和国”。尽管柏林也是现代联邦制度下的一个城邦，但汉堡在珍视其背后的象征意义方面要激进得多。
（回）汉堡人的这种自豪感来自于，它从中世纪建城以来就是一个所谓的“自由城市“/“商人共和国”。尽管柏林也是现代联邦制度下的一个城邦，但汉堡在珍视其背后的象征意义方面要激进得多。
As a Frankfurter, I would advise you to separate the question.
Are we the "2nd city" in Germany...? no. But Berlin is not place 1. Berlin is the seat of government and have the biggest population. Economically Berlin is pathetically weak compared to, Munich, Frankfurt, Hamburg or Cologne and dependent on annual aid payments in the billions to not collapse.
Germany is not France or the UK, our capital is miles away from being the core of our economy. Economic and political power are geographically separated in our country.
（回，德）作为一个法兰克福人，我建议你把这个问题分成几个部分。
我们是德国的“第二城”吗...？并不是。但柏林也不是第一城。柏林是政府所在地，拥有最多的人口。与慕尼黑、法兰克福、汉堡和科隆相比，柏林在经济上弱得可怜，每年都要靠数十亿的援助才能不崩溃。
德国不是法国也不是英国，我们的首都和我们的经济中心远隔千里。在我们国家，经济强市和政治强市在地理上是分隔开的。
Are we the "2nd city" in Germany...? no. But Berlin is not place 1. Berlin is the seat of government and have the biggest population. Economically Berlin is pathetically weak compared to, Munich, Frankfurt, Hamburg or Cologne and dependent on annual aid payments in the billions to not collapse.
Germany is not France or the UK, our capital is miles away from being the core of our economy. Economic and political power are geographically separated in our country.
（回，德）作为一个法兰克福人，我建议你把这个问题分成几个部分。
我们是德国的“第二城”吗...？并不是。但柏林也不是第一城。柏林是政府所在地，拥有最多的人口。与慕尼黑、法兰克福、汉堡和科隆相比，柏林在经济上弱得可怜，每年都要靠数十亿的援助才能不崩溃。
德国不是法国也不是英国，我们的首都和我们的经济中心远隔千里。在我们国家，经济强市和政治强市在地理上是分隔开的。
Berlin is by far the largest population in Germany though, but GDP per capita is far less than Hamburg, half of Munich and far less than half of Frankfurt.
You need to remember that the reunification of Berlin was only 30 years ago, after 40 years of division. During the division almost all large companies relocated from West Berlin to other West German cities due to geographic isolation, and the economy of East Berlin completely collapsed in the 90s as soon as it faced international competition for the first time after decades of mismanagement.
（回，英）虽然柏林是迄今为止德国人口最多的城市，但人均GDP远低于汉堡，仅为慕尼黑的一半，也远低于法兰克福的一半。
你需要记住的是，柏林的统一也只是三十年前的事，而且是在经历了四十年的分裂之后完成的。在分裂期间，由于地理上的隔绝，几乎所有的大公司都从西柏林搬迁到了其他西德城市，而东柏林的经济在经过了几十年的管理不善后，在九十年代一面对国际竞争，就彻底崩溃了。
You need to remember that the reunification of Berlin was only 30 years ago, after 40 years of division. During the division almost all large companies relocated from West Berlin to other West German cities due to geographic isolation, and the economy of East Berlin completely collapsed in the 90s as soon as it faced international competition for the first time after decades of mismanagement.
（回，英）虽然柏林是迄今为止德国人口最多的城市，但人均GDP远低于汉堡，仅为慕尼黑的一半，也远低于法兰克福的一半。
你需要记住的是，柏林的统一也只是三十年前的事，而且是在经历了四十年的分裂之后完成的。在分裂期间，由于地理上的隔绝，几乎所有的大公司都从西柏林搬迁到了其他西德城市，而东柏林的经济在经过了几十年的管理不善后，在九十年代一面对国际竞争，就彻底崩溃了。
DatOudeLUL
For NL, Rotterdam lacks the aesthetic charm of Amsterdam (at in least in a more traditional Dutch architectural sense) and as significantly, has to compete with the Hague as the second city - as the two cities a.) very similar in size/population, b.) located very close to one another (they can easily be lumped into a broader metro-area); c.) as the seat of the government and the court of the royal family, den Haag furthers it's second city claim against Amsterdam (in comparison with Rotterdam) and is a sort of functional capital.
（荷）对荷兰来说，鹿特丹缺乏阿姆斯特丹的美学魅力（至少从更传统的荷兰建筑角度看是如此），而且很明显，鹿特丹不得不与海牙竞争第二城，
因为这两个城市
1）在规模/人口方面非常近似
2）所在位置靠的很近（很容易就能把它们划归为一片更广阔的都市区）
3) 作为政府和皇室的所在地，进一步强化了海牙向阿姆斯特丹索要第二城名头的主张（相比于鹿特丹），而且是某种功能性首都。
For NL, Rotterdam lacks the aesthetic charm of Amsterdam (at in least in a more traditional Dutch architectural sense) and as significantly, has to compete with the Hague as the second city - as the two cities a.) very similar in size/population, b.) located very close to one another (they can easily be lumped into a broader metro-area); c.) as the seat of the government and the court of the royal family, den Haag furthers it's second city claim against Amsterdam (in comparison with Rotterdam) and is a sort of functional capital.
（荷）对荷兰来说，鹿特丹缺乏阿姆斯特丹的美学魅力（至少从更传统的荷兰建筑角度看是如此），而且很明显，鹿特丹不得不与海牙竞争第二城，
因为这两个城市
1）在规模/人口方面非常近似
2）所在位置靠的很近（很容易就能把它们划归为一片更广阔的都市区）
3) 作为政府和皇室的所在地，进一步强化了海牙向阿姆斯特丹索要第二城名头的主张（相比于鹿特丹），而且是某种功能性首都。
Also for better or for worse, Amsterdam receives more tourists than everywhere else in the Netherlands combined (citation needed but my educated hunch says this is factual), so it's the image many have or know the country as (and again its aesthetic fits that perception better than Rotterdam's does anyway).
不管怎样，阿姆斯特丹接待的游客，比荷兰其他地方接待的游客总和还要多（这一点需要引证，但我那以学养为基础的直觉告诉我这是事实），总之它就是很多人对这个国家的印象（反正其审美也比鹿特丹更贴合这种观感）。
不管怎样，阿姆斯特丹接待的游客，比荷兰其他地方接待的游客总和还要多（这一点需要引证，但我那以学养为基础的直觉告诉我这是事实），总之它就是很多人对这个国家的印象（反正其审美也比鹿特丹更贴合这种观感）。
"In the Hague it is decided that the money made by the Rotterdamned is being spent on Amsterdam." or something like that.
（回）“海牙决定把鹿特丹赚来的钱花在阿姆斯特丹上” 什么的。
（回）“海牙决定把鹿特丹赚来的钱花在阿姆斯特丹上” 什么的。
SockRuse
Fun fact: 26.6 million people or nearly a third of all Germans live in the 80 cities with more than 100k inhabitants each. As a country we are exceedingly efficient at having a ton of small and medium sized cities all over the place.
（德）有趣的事实是：2660万人，也即近三分之一的德国人生活在八十个居民人数均超过十万的城市里。作为一个国家，我们在全国范围内拥有海量中小型城市方面是极为高效的。
Fun fact: 26.6 million people or nearly a third of all Germans live in the 80 cities with more than 100k inhabitants each. As a country we are exceedingly efficient at having a ton of small and medium sized cities all over the place.
（德）有趣的事实是：2660万人，也即近三分之一的德国人生活在八十个居民人数均超过十万的城市里。作为一个国家，我们在全国范围内拥有海量中小型城市方面是极为高效的。
I still can't understand it. How have young people not flocked to the major cities like they have in the rest of Europe? Small towns and villages are basically disappearing in many countries.
（回，保加利亚）我还是无法理解。为什么德国的年轻人没有像欧洲其他国家那样涌向大城市？在很多国家，小城镇和村庄基本上是在不断消失的。
（回，保加利亚）我还是无法理解。为什么德国的年轻人没有像欧洲其他国家那样涌向大城市？在很多国家，小城镇和村庄基本上是在不断消失的。
Big decentralization for ages. We just have several cities people flock to. In the lesser populated areas a move from a village to 250k inhabitant City is already a flock to the Major cities.
（回，德）大规模的去中心化建设已经实施很久了。在我们这里，人们会成群涌向的城市只有几个。在人口较少的地区，从一个村庄搬到有二十五万居民的城市，已经能算作是涌向大城市了。
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（回，德）大规模的去中心化建设已经实施很久了。在我们这里，人们会成群涌向的城市只有几个。在人口较少的地区，从一个村庄搬到有二十五万居民的城市，已经能算作是涌向大城市了。
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And we have 4 Cities with a million inhabitants. Check their Distribution on the map, it is one in each cardinal direction. And every rural area usually still has a central hüben city with 100 or 250k+ inhabitants.
我们有四个拥有一百万居民的城市。去查查它们在地图上的分布，东西南北各有一个。每一片乡村地区通常都有一个拥有十万或二十五万以上居民的中心枢纽城市。
我们有四个拥有一百万居民的城市。去查查它们在地图上的分布，东西南北各有一个。每一片乡村地区通常都有一个拥有十万或二十五万以上居民的中心枢纽城市。
This being a thing for ages has also led to major companies forming and setting all over the place, so that there are different push and pull effects than in countries that are heavily centralized. Germany just couldnt start to try and centralized before 150 years ago, where either the System in France or Britain was already in place or countries where still under the control of another whose structure they partially adapted like with Austria-Hungary or the Ottomans.
这种现象已经存在很长时间了，也导致了大公司的成立地或选址地遍布全国各地，因此，与那些中心化非常严重的国家相比，存在的推拉效应也是不同的。德国在一百五十年前还完全没有能力尝试中心化，当时法国或英国的制度已经到位了，或者国家还在另一个国家的控制之下，其架构已经部分适应了，比如说奥匈帝国或奥斯曼帝国。
这种现象已经存在很长时间了，也导致了大公司的成立地或选址地遍布全国各地，因此，与那些中心化非常严重的国家相比，存在的推拉效应也是不同的。德国在一百五十年前还完全没有能力尝试中心化，当时法国或英国的制度已经到位了，或者国家还在另一个国家的控制之下，其架构已经部分适应了，比如说奥匈帝国或奥斯曼帝国。
ActiveSearcher56
French here, very centralized country so Paris is the first by far.
Even if Lyon if wealthier, more dynamic and populated than other cities, Marseille is more often considered as the "Second city" for various reasons :
我是法国人，法国是个中心化程度很高的国家，所以到目前为止，巴黎是第一城。
就算里昂比其他城市更富裕、更有活力、人口也更多，更容易被看成“第二城”的是马赛，原因有很多。
French here, very centralized country so Paris is the first by far.
Even if Lyon if wealthier, more dynamic and populated than other cities, Marseille is more often considered as the "Second city" for various reasons :
我是法国人，法国是个中心化程度很高的国家，所以到目前为止，巴黎是第一城。
就算里昂比其他城市更富裕、更有活力、人口也更多，更容易被看成“第二城”的是马赛，原因有很多。
Lyon was a very important city during the middle age and the Renaissance, but Marseille had, and still has, a stronger economic position because it is a notable port in Mediterranean Sea (which was the center of economic trades during Middle Age). It is one of the biggest in France, the city also welcome GQ of maritime companies and a lot of tourists from Mediterranean cruises, so this port is very important
Football rivality, l'OM is a famous FC and the only french one which has ever won the Champions League
The North-South opposition, rich -"poor" opposion too, like elite - people. The french hymn, popular, is named after Marseille ("La marseillaise").
Rap rivality, most of french rappers either come from Paris (and the suburbs) or Marseille, so a rivality appeared.
里昂在中世纪和文艺复兴时期是一个非常重要的城市，但马赛无论在过去还是现在，都坐拥着更高的经济地位，因为它是地中海地区的一个著名港口（中世纪时，那里是经济贸易的中心）。它是法国最大的港口之一，这个城市也迎接了赤道几内亚的海运公司和大量来自地中海游轮的游客，所以这个港口是非常重要的。
-足球的较量，马赛队（即奥林匹克马赛足球俱乐部）是著名俱乐部，也是唯一一支赢得过欧洲冠军联赛的法国球队。
-南北对立，也存在“贫”富对立，也即精英和民众的对立。那首极为流行的法国赞歌是以马赛命名的（《马赛曲》）。
-说唱的较量，大多数法国说唱歌手都来自巴黎（及其郊区）或马赛，所以就出现了这种较量。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Football rivality, l'OM is a famous FC and the only french one which has ever won the Champions League
The North-South opposition, rich -"poor" opposion too, like elite - people. The french hymn, popular, is named after Marseille ("La marseillaise").
Rap rivality, most of french rappers either come from Paris (and the suburbs) or Marseille, so a rivality appeared.
里昂在中世纪和文艺复兴时期是一个非常重要的城市，但马赛无论在过去还是现在，都坐拥着更高的经济地位，因为它是地中海地区的一个著名港口（中世纪时，那里是经济贸易的中心）。它是法国最大的港口之一，这个城市也迎接了赤道几内亚的海运公司和大量来自地中海游轮的游客，所以这个港口是非常重要的。
-足球的较量，马赛队（即奥林匹克马赛足球俱乐部）是著名俱乐部，也是唯一一支赢得过欧洲冠军联赛的法国球队。
-南北对立，也存在“贫”富对立，也即精英和民众的对立。那首极为流行的法国赞歌是以马赛命名的（《马赛曲》）。
-说唱的较量，大多数法国说唱歌手都来自巴黎（及其郊区）或马赛，所以就出现了这种较量。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Worst thing is that La Marseillaise doesn't even come from Marseille, but from Strasbourg.
（回，法）最糟糕的是，《马赛曲》甚至不是来自马赛，而是来自斯特拉斯堡。
（回，法）最糟糕的是，《马赛曲》甚至不是来自马赛，而是来自斯特拉斯堡。
FakeNathanDrake
Glasgow actually has more people than the capital, Edinburgh. Despite how some of the locals go on about it, Glasgow is definitely second (I’m from neither so I’m neutral here!), it wasn’t really a big deal until the slave trade kicked off, and by the time of the industrial revolution it was considered the “second city of the British Empirel.
（苏格兰）格拉斯哥的人口其实比首都爱丁堡还多。尽管有些当地人对这个问题喋喋不休，但格拉斯哥绝对是第二城（我不是这两个城市的人，所以我在这个问题上是中立的！），在开始奴隶贸易之前，格拉斯哥不算是什么重要城市，而到了工业革命时期，它被认为是“大英帝国第二城”。
Glasgow actually has more people than the capital, Edinburgh. Despite how some of the locals go on about it, Glasgow is definitely second (I’m from neither so I’m neutral here!), it wasn’t really a big deal until the slave trade kicked off, and by the time of the industrial revolution it was considered the “second city of the British Empirel.
（苏格兰）格拉斯哥的人口其实比首都爱丁堡还多。尽管有些当地人对这个问题喋喋不休，但格拉斯哥绝对是第二城（我不是这两个城市的人，所以我在这个问题上是中立的！），在开始奴隶贸易之前，格拉斯哥不算是什么重要城市，而到了工业革命时期，它被认为是“大英帝国第二城”。
medhelan
if we take the administrative municipality alone Rome has a biggest population, the municipality of Rome is veeeeeery large tho
if we go by urban area they're pretty much even, with the difference that most of the urban area of rome is within the municipality, while for Milan is spreaded in tens of municipalities other than the main one
if we go by Metropolitan Area Milan is way bigger, with Naples being very close to Rome
（北意大利）如果我们只算行政意义上的直辖市，则罗马的人口是最多的，但罗马直辖市可是非常大的。
如果按市区面积来算，它们基本持平，不同的是，罗马的大部分市区面积都在直辖市内，而米兰的市区面积则分布在主城以外的几十个自治市中。
而如果按都会区来算，米兰就大得多了，而那不勒斯则非常接近罗马。
if we take the administrative municipality alone Rome has a biggest population, the municipality of Rome is veeeeeery large tho
if we go by urban area they're pretty much even, with the difference that most of the urban area of rome is within the municipality, while for Milan is spreaded in tens of municipalities other than the main one
if we go by Metropolitan Area Milan is way bigger, with Naples being very close to Rome
（北意大利）如果我们只算行政意义上的直辖市，则罗马的人口是最多的，但罗马直辖市可是非常大的。
如果按市区面积来算，它们基本持平，不同的是，罗马的大部分市区面积都在直辖市内，而米兰的市区面积则分布在主城以外的几十个自治市中。
而如果按都会区来算，米兰就大得多了，而那不勒斯则非常接近罗马。
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