全球网友大论战:筷子和刀叉究竟孰优孰劣?
2022-09-16 yzy86 19237
正文翻译

I cannot think of a meal that one could eat with Chopsticks that could not be just as effectively consumed by a fork and or knife.
No disrespect to cultures that continue to use the Chopstick but from a user's perspective the fork and knife are clearly superior.
Any tool that can be used to achieve the same goal with an easier learning curve is the superior tool.
Anyone with User Experience design knowledge will tell you that it's ALWAYS better to achieve the same goal with a more intuitive interface.

能用筷子吃却不能以同样的效率用刀叉来吃的一顿饭,我是想不出。
我对继续使用筷子的文化没有任何不敬,但从使用者的角度来看,刀叉显然更优越。
任何能用来实现同样目标的工具,只要更容易学会,就是更优越的工具。
任何一个拥有用户体验设计知识的人都会告诉你,使用更直观的界面/布局来实现同样的目标总是更好的做法。

In Western countries, anyone who judges someone else for preferring to use a fork and/or knife to eat "asian" cuisine is simply Gatekeeping or being unnecessarily judgemental.

在西方国家,如果因为别人更喜欢用叉子/刀子来吃“亚洲”菜就对其进行评判的人,只是在“把关”而已,或者说是一种不必要的吹毛求疵。

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评论翻译
Sevink44
Try catching a fly with a fork.

试试用叉子抓住一只苍蝇。

Try killing hornets to protect your bees with a fork and knife.

(回)在保护你的蜜蜂时,试试用叉和刀杀死大黄蜂。

My wife speared a wasp last week with her fork
If I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes I would have never believed it

(回)上周,我妻子还真的用叉子叉死了一只黄蜂
如果不是亲眼所见,我是绝对不会相信的。

Dude, your ignorance is astounding. And the arrogance with which you state your ignorance, lol. Try eating gim with a fork. Or mix jjajangmyun. or eat dduk bossam. You don't even know what these are, and yet, you claim the fork is a superior utensil to eat these foods, lol! Holy crap, dude. There are literally a hundred Asian dishes I can think of right now where chopsticks will give you much more precision and control than a fork. Try expanding your tastes beyond panda express before acting like you're some expert in the eating habits of Asians.

(回)老兄,你的无知程度让人震惊啊。再有就是你在表现你无知时的那种傲慢,笑。试试用叉子吃海苔,或是搅拌韩式炸酱面,或是吃韩式米皮包肉。你甚至都不知道这些是什么,而你却宣称叉子是吃这些食物的更理想的用具,呵呵!你这扯的什么淡哦,老兄。我现在能想到的亚洲菜肴都有上百种,筷子能给你带来的是比叉子更高的精准度和更强的控制力。在你装成亚洲人饮食习惯专家之前,试着把你的体验范围扩大到熊猫快餐以外吧。

Have you tried eating cheetos with a fork bc trust me the chopsticks are the way to go

(回)你有没有试过用叉子吃奇多,你可以相信我,用筷子吃才是王道。

Fairly certain ive seen plenty of movies with a ninja killing a fly with a fork throw

(回)我相当肯定我看过很多忍者投出叉子杀死苍蝇的电影。
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Also, no deforming your teeth over time.

(回)而且,(筷子)时间用长了也不会让你的牙齿变形。

Or picking up noodles without twisting

(回)挑起面条时也无须卷起来

Become Indian. Eat with your hands. Catch a fly with your hands. Slap with your hand. Waah your ass with your (left) hand.

(回)成为印度人吧。用手吃饭。用手抓苍蝇。用手拍打。用(左)手洗你的屁股。
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Try cutting your steak with chopsticks

(回)试试用筷子切牛排

karlnite
It is what you were raised with, and they both obviously work. OP is just saying it’s better to start with a knife and fork only because they feel they are simply to learn, control and operate than chopsticks. They’re using design and engineering as the example, and it holds up, if we were to choose a tool to eat and were presented with fork and chopsticks, most design engineers would choose fork and knife as the tool because of the lower requirement to become competent in it’s use. Chopsticks would only be picked if ease to reproduce and cost of materials was strongly considered.

这是你从小用到大的东西,而且显然它们都能发挥作用。楼主只是在说,最好从刀叉开始,因为他们觉得刀叉比筷子更容易学会、控制和操作。他们举的设计和工程的例子也是站得住脚的,如果要我们选择一种吃饭的工具,而且给到了我们叉子和筷子,大多数设计工程师会选择刀叉作为工具,因为能够自如使用它们所需的要求较低。只有在着重考虑筷子易于重新制造以及物料成本较低的情况下才会选择筷子。
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In the end it’s a very silly distinction because hands work better than both in a design and engineering sense. Why use a tool when one is not needed.

最后想说,作这种区分是非常愚蠢的,因为从设计和工程的角度来看,手比这两者都好用。在不需要工具的情况下,为什么要去使用工具。

Plus the type of food that goes with it is important too, just like you don't eat sushi with knife and fork, you certainly don't use chopsticks and spoon to eat a steak. Cuisine were also adapted to their culture, Asian food in general don't require you to cut food (even when they do, its doable via your teeth, or the chef already pre cut for you), though some previous colonial countries such as Vietnam has a lot of cuisine associated with knife and fork due to their French colonial background.

(回)另外,与之搭配的食物类型也很重要,就像你不会用刀叉吃寿司一样,你当然也不会用筷子和勺子去吃牛排。菜肴也顺应了他们的文化,亚洲菜肴一般不需要你切割食物(就算需要,也可以通过你的牙齿来完成,或者厨师预先为你切好了),尽管有些前殖民国家,比如越南,由于其法国殖民地的背景,存在很多须用刀叉的菜肴。

In many countries around the world hands is still the only utensil they use and their cuisine is more compatible with that, so OP basically trying to argue knife and fork is the best as its versatile, but disregard everything else about food lol.

在全世界很多国家,手仍然是他们使用的唯一的工具,他们的菜肴和手也更匹配,所以基本上,楼主试图主张刀叉是最好的,因为它是多功能的,却不考虑食物的其他所有方面,笑。

I think it’s not just what you were raised with but also what you eat. If you’re used to eating bowls or noodle soup regularly, chopsticks & spoon are far superior from a design perspective.
This is also just my opinion, but I think western folks on the whole really overinflated the difficulty of using chopsticks. They’re honestly just as “easy” as a fork and knife

(回)我认为这不止和你从小到大用什么有关,也和你吃什么有关。如果你习惯于经常用碗吃饭或是吃汤面,那么从设计的角度来看,筷子和勺子优越得多。
这也只是我的看法,但我认为西方人这个整体,是真的夸大了使用筷子的难度。老实说,它们和刀叉一样“容易”。

I learned how to use them from the paper sleeve instructions when I was like 8, and my dad still struggles with them to this day. They're suited for foods that you want to pick up but not puncture, like sushi or dumplings, and I think are just as suited to noodles as a fork is.

(回)我在大约8岁的时候就通过筷子纸套上的说明学会了用法,而我父亲直到今天用起来都很费劲。它们适用于那些你想拿起但不想刺破的食物,比如寿司或饺子,我也觉得,它们和叉子一样适用于面条。

For long noodles, like spaghetti, ramen, udon or really, most Asian types of noodle, the fork and Italian twirling method is far superior, at least for women who wear make up. I eat sushi with chopsticks, bowls with a spoon, and noodles with a fork.

(回)对于那种长面条,比如意面、日式拉面、乌冬面,其实大部分亚洲类型的面条都算,叉子和意大利式旋转法要好得多,至少对化了妆的女士来说是如此。我吃寿司用筷子,用碗进食用勺子,吃面则用叉子。

I guess if you feel the need to twirl your noodles, but it's not necessary, which is why chopsticks have been around for so long. They're suited to the cuisine from their place of origin.

(回)我猜这是因为你觉得有必要旋转你的面条,但其实无此必要,这也是为什么筷子存在了如此之久的时间。它们适合吃其起源地的菜肴。

I just don't want saucy noodles dangling on my chin and smearing my lipstick

(回)我只是不想让沾满酱汁的面条挂在我的下巴上,然后弄脏我的口红。

The good thing with chopsticks is that you don’t have to stab things. For example, with wings if I use a fork eventually I have to make them fall when biting to get to the other side trying to not have it touch my face, but with chopsticks I can easily finish it without being as messy…

(回)筷子的优点是,你不需要去刺穿食物。比如说,如果我用叉子去吃鸡翅,我就必须在咬到翅膀另一边的时候主动让鸡翅掉下来,这样就不会接触到我的脸了,但用筷子吃的话,我很容易就能一口气吃干净,也不会弄得一片狼藉。

fuck it if I'm trying to get something tricky out of the hot pot I'll just spear it with the chopstick, I have no qualms about being a barbarian that way. I ain't tryna play hide and seek with you, fish ball

(回)我才不管那么许多,如果我想从火锅里捞出些不太好捞的东西,我会直接用筷子刺进去,用这种野蛮手法让自己变成野蛮人,对此我可是没有什么顾虑的。我还真没打算跟你玩捉迷藏,鱼丸。

Manburpig
Chopsticks are better at handling delicate food without destroying it.

筷子能更好地处理精致易碎的食物而不至于破坏它。
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In some cases here a spoon would work, but picking up a piece of sushi with a spoon can feel weird lol

(回)在某些情况下,用勺子也能做到,但用勺子舀起一块寿司,感觉就很奇怪了呵呵。
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Sushi is finger food

(回)寿司是手抓食物。

Everything is finger food for us brown people.

(回)对我们这些棕种人来说,所有食物都是手抓食物。
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Definitely can’t pick up XLBs with a fork and knife. That delicate dough skin will puncture first.

(回)绝对不能用刀叉提起小笼包。那易碎的面皮一上来就会被戳破。
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Also you cannot pick at a fish with a fork. Westerners eat fish as fillets for the most part due to this.

(回)你也不能用叉子去扒拉鱼。西方人吃鱼,吃的大多是鱼片,背后的原因就在此。

People in Southern Europe, like Greece or Portugal, most def pick at entire fish with a fork

(回)南欧的人,如希腊或葡萄牙,大部分人都是用叉子去扒拉整条鱼的。

MeatBurnham
Cooking bacon with chopsticks is superior

用筷子烹制培根会更好

Chopsticks for making scrambled eggs and bacon is a game changer. I visited my parents and had to make breakfast but they don’t own any chopsticks. My brain short circuited and I had such a hard time remembering how to make them the “normal way.” Those eggs were dense and weird, I don’t know how people do it with a spatula/spoon/fork.

(回)用筷子烹制炒蛋和培根,这可是改变了游戏规则的玩法。有次我去看望我的父母,不得不烹制早餐,可他们一根筷子也没有。我大脑瞬间短路了,实在想不起如何用"正常的方式"做出这些菜。那鸡蛋被我做得又稠密又奇怪,我不清楚人们用铲子/勺子/叉子是如何做出来的。

I keep 20-30 chopsticks in a jar on my counter because I use them all the time for cooking and stirring. They take less storage space and I never run out of cutlery at dinner time.

(回)我一直在柜台上的一个罐子里放二三十根筷子,因为我一直都用它们来做饭还有搅拌。它们占用的空间更少,而且我在用餐时从来都不会出现用光餐具的情况。
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upleft
“Anyone with User Experience design knowledge will tell you that it's ALWAYS better to achieve the same goal with a more intuitive interface.”
As a person with 15 years UX experience, I can tell you that this misses the mark. Intuitiveness is great if you are designing for first time use, but things that are designed for repeat use can and should favor things like speed, precision, and efficiency over intuitiveness.
If intuitiveness was always the primary goal, everybody would be wearing Velcro shoes.

“任何一个拥有用户体验设计知识的人都会告诉你,使用更直观的界面/布局来实现同样的目标总是更好的做法。”
作为一个拥有15年用户体验设计经验的人,我可以告诉你,你这话没说到点子上。如果你是针对第一次使用而设计,则直观性是很好的,但是为重复使用而设计的东西可以而且应该偏向于速度、精确性和效率等方面,而不是直观性。
如果始终都以直观性为首要目标,那每个人都去穿Velcro的鞋子了。



(图解:Velcro鞋)

frenchietw
Chopsticks truly shine when eating a whole fish, it allows you to pick the meat around the bones. Game changer!

在吃整条鱼的时候,筷子是真的会大放异彩,你能靠它挑出骨头周围的肉。它改变了游戏规则!

I was looking for this comment.
Especially with trout you can pluck the meat right from the bone. Using a fork/knife will either break the bones off too, or require you to use your fingers to align everything and hold the spine back.

(回)我一直在找这条评论。
特别是吃鳟鱼的时候,你可以直接从骨头上扯下肉。用叉子/刀子的话,要么会把骨头弄断,要么就需要你用手指对齐所有东西,还得按住鱼脊椎使其不动。

The same people who don't know how to use chopsticks are the same ones that don't eat a whole fish. They'll never know.

(回)那些不会用筷子的和那些不吃整条鱼的,是同一拨人。他们永远都不会知道这其中的奥妙。

I eat whole fish and chopsticks are a pain to use when dealing with boney fishes. Waaaay easier remove the tiny bones with a fork and spoon.

我是吃整条鱼的,在处理鱼刺很多的鱼时,用筷子就很麻烦了。用叉子和勺子的话,去除小鱼刺就容易得多了。

frbhtsdvhh
Here is what anyone needs to know about chopsticks: when used correctly they are an extension of your fingers. Anything you can do with your fingers you should be able to do with chopsticks. If you want to grasp something in the same way as your fingers without using your dirty hands you use chopsticks.
Forks don't mimic your fingers, they are a different mechanical tool all together.

关于筷子,大家都需要了解的是:如果使用方式正确,它们就会是你手指的延伸。任何你能用手指做的事情,用筷子就都应该能做。如果你想用和手指相同的方式抓取东西,而不想使用你的脏手,你就会用筷子。
叉子无法模仿你的手指,它们是一种完全不同的机械工具。

Which is superior?
It depends what you want to do. If you want to do something that resembles the capability of fingers (grab something without puncturing or altering, grab very small things, grab and move with precision, etc...) then chopsticks are the best tool. If you want to hold an obxt for cutting, don't care about puncturing, use the tines to specifically capture obxts (like noodles) etc... then use a fork.

取决于你想做什么。如果你想做一些手指能做到的事情(在不刺破或不改变对象的情况下抓取东西,抓取非常小的东西,精确地抓取和移动,等等...)那筷子就是最理想的工具。如果你想按住一个物体进行切割,也不在乎刺破,特意用齿尖抓取物体(如面条)等...那就用叉子。

beer-and-bikkies
Lol imagine having hotpot with a fork

吼吼,想象一下用叉子吃火锅吧

Miso soup too. You use the chopsticks to pick up all the little things inside and then drink the soup from the bowl. Can’t imagine trying to fish out the seaweed and tofu with a fork.

(回)味增汤也是。你用筷子夹起碗里所有的小块食物,然后喝碗里的汤。用叉子把海带和豆腐捞出来是无法想象的。

I think it’s just more efficient to use a spoon at this point to eat those little things from the soup with a bit of the soup itself in your spoon.

(回)我认为,这种时候用勺子吃汤里的小块食物才更有效率,勺子里还能留有一点汤呢。

American here. This is the first time I've ever heard that miso soup was intended to be eaten with chopsticks at all.

(回)我是美国人。这是我第一次听说味噌汤是要用筷子来吃的。

One thing that you could say is that the double pronged fork works great for hot pot, but I think chop sticks are better because some things like eggs are better unpunctured.

(回)你可以说,双齿叉在吃火锅时特别好用,但我认为筷子更好,因为有些东西,比如蛋,最好不要刺破它。

The_cynical_panther
You can eat literally any noodle dish with a fork

任何面食你都可以用叉子吃,一点没夸张。

You definitely can but chopsticks don’t heat up in broth like a spoon or fork does which is nice.

(回)当然可以啦,但筷子不会像勺子或叉子那样在肉汤中变烫,这点很好。

hucklebutter
Food service in Thailand always made good sense to me. The food is in bite sized portions but a fork and spoon are provided. No need for a knife and you push food onto the spoon with the fork.

在我看来,泰国的餐饮服务总是很合理。食物给处理成了一口的量,但会给你提供叉子和勺子。不需要刀,你用叉子把食物推到勺子里即可。

although Thailand is a SE Asian country, Thai people (generally) don't use chopsticks, which explains why spoons/forks are provided

(回)尽管泰国是一个东南亚国家,但泰国人(一般)不用筷子,这就解释了为什么会提供勺子/叉子。
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We use spoons and forks for rice dishes and chopsticks for all noodle dishes. Makes sense

(回)我们用勺子和叉子吃各种米饭,用筷子吃所有的面食。很合理

Storm0963
I eat tons of chips (Cheetos, Takis, goldfish, sun chips, etc) with them and most pastas. I was born and raised in America. I'm super white and Western. I love chopsticks.

我用筷子吃掉了海量的薯片(奇多、Takis、金鱼、阳光薯片等),大部分意大利面食也是用筷子。我在美国出生长大。我是白得不能再白的白人,也是西方人。我喜欢筷子。

I had a coworker who used chopsticks to eat Cheetos. No more Cheeto fingers. Brilliant stuff.

(回)我以前有个同事用筷子吃奇多。不会再出现奇多指了。筷子这玩意儿太妙了。
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I do this and it’s great for gaming while snacking without the mess.

(回)我也是这样做的,用筷子的话就很适合边吃零食边打游戏了,不会搞得一片狼藉。

Tasitch
I like Korean style with thin metal chopsticks and table scissors for cutting anything too big.

我喜欢韩国式的,配的是很薄的金属筷子和餐剪,后者用来剪过大的东西。

lurker12346
They probably adjusted their food to be easily consumed by chopsticks; they're not gonna come up with a dish then scramble to find a way to eat it.

他们可能是把食物调整到了很容易用筷子进食的状态;他们是不会先想出一道菜然后拼命寻找吃它的方法的。

Really, you think it’s easier to adjust a culture food to a eating utensils than to create utensils adjusted for the food ???

(回)真的吗,你认为让某种文化中的食物去顺应某种食具,要比创造出能顺应那种食物的食具更容易?

"Honey, why the fuck did you plate an entire uncut steak on my plate?"

(回)“亲爱的,你TM为什么要把一整块没有切割过的牛排放在我的盘子里?”

It’s more like cultures are used to eating specific ways

(回)倒不如说是各种文化习惯了特定的进食方式

o_--_--_--_--_--_o
Anything you can pick up with chopsticks you can pick up with a fork much easier

任何你能用筷子夹起的东西,你都能用叉子更容易地叉起。
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A single green pea. Easy with chops if you don't suck at using them, but rolls around like crazy if you try to fork it unaided

(回)一颗青豌豆。如果你的筷技不差,那用筷子就很容易夹起,但如果你试图在没有外援的情况下用叉子叉起它,它就会疯了似地滚来滚去。

PreviouslyOnBible
Chopsticks are way better than a fork for picking up leafy greens.

在夹取叶子菜时,筷子比叉子好用多了

Its way easier to eat rice with a fork than chop sticks. Especially if the rice isnt sticky and chunky.
Thats literally why you have to put the bowl to your mouth if your trying to clean up rice with chopsticks

(回)用叉子吃米饭比用筷子容易多了。如果米饭没有粘稠成块,就更是如此了。
这也是为什么如果你想用筷子把碗里的米饭扫荡干净,就必须把碗举到嘴边。

emeraldwatch
Try to eat a Cheeto with a fork. If you puncture it the Cheeto shatters. If you scoop it then it is hard to balance. Chopsticks are infinitely superior in this case.

试试用叉子吃一枚奇多。如果你刺破它了,这枚奇多就会碎掉。如果你用勺子舀它,又很难找到平衡。在这种情况下,筷子具备无限的优越性。

coke125
I mean its not like asians replace every utensil with chopsticks. If we need to cut meat, we use a knife, not chopsticks. If we need to eat soup, we use spoons, not chopsticks. I think you just don’t know how to use chopsticks.

我想说的是,并不是说亚洲人会用筷子取代所有的餐具。如果我们需要切肉,我们会用刀,而不是筷子。如果我们需要喝汤,我们会用勺子,而不是筷子。我觉得吧,你只是不会用筷子而已。

I watch a lot of cooking videos and when Asian people are good with chopsticks they seem like an amazing tool for the actual manipulation and preparing of food while cooking.

(回)我看了很多烹饪视频,而在亚洲人擅长使用筷子的那部分视频里,看起来似乎是一种在烹饪时实际操作和准备食物的神奇工具。

My preferred cooking utensils is acutally chopsticks. I donno it just seems to alway work out for me. I prob use chopsticks at least once in the cooking process of any dish I cook but it's just me

(回)我偏爱的烹饪工具其实是筷子。我不知道,但对我来说它貌似总是很管用。在我烹制任何菜的过程中,我可能至少都要使用一次筷子,但这只是我的情况。

Yeah me too, if you need to whisk? Chopsticks. Cooking anything with oil? Chopsticks. Stir pots of soup, pasta or noodles? Chopsticks.
Plus you can just use wooden chopsticks on nonstick pan like no ones business because it doesn't damage it, good luck using forks on a non stick pan (I know most sane people use wooden or plastic spatula, I had a flatmate at uni who used metal forks to cook, because he was too lazy to buy a spatula, I saw that on day 1 and never left my cooking pots and pans in the kitchen for an entire year until I moved out).

(回)是的,我也是,如果你需要搅拌东西?用筷子。用油烹制任何东西?用筷子。搅拌好几锅汤、意面或是面条?用筷子。
另外,你可以直接在不粘锅上飞快地使用木头筷子,因为它不会损坏不粘锅,如果你在不粘锅上使用叉子,那我只能祝你好运了(我知道大多数心智健全的人会使用木制/塑料的锅铲,我大学里有一个室友,是用金属叉子做饭的,因为他懒得买锅铲,我第一天搬进去就见到了这一幕,于是之后的一整年我都没有把我的烹饪锅留在厨房里,直到我搬出去)。

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