为什么成吉思汗不利用征服得来的财富和资源来发展蒙古?(一)
2022-12-30 翻译熊 8280
正文翻译

Why didn’t Genghis Khan use the wealth and resources from his conquest to develop Mongolia?

为什么成吉思汗不利用征服得来的财富和资源来发展蒙古?

评论翻译
Samuel Ademeso
Well before answer this, we need to understand the difference between an Agricultural sedentary society and a pastoralist nomadic society, and how each societies measures wealth and development.
first off we tart with the agricultural society
Any community whose economy is focused on growing and maintaining crops and farmland is considered an agrarian society, often known as an agricultural society. The principal source of wealth in an agrarian culture is farming, Land is a major capital source of wealth. While acknowledging various ways of making a living and working habits, such a society places a strong emphasis on agriculture and farming. In a feudal society, wealth was measured in how many lands you owned and the peasants who worked on those land for you, and when an official, soldiers or any outstanding person has contributed positively to their kingdom/nation, the king would reward them with a land as well as a noble title with it . making them set for life

在回答这个问题之前,我们需要了解农业定居社会和游牧社会之间的区别,以及每个社会如何衡量财富和发展。
首先我们从农业社会开始
任何经济集中于种植和维护作物和农田的社区都被认为是农业社会,通常被称为农业社会。在农耕文化中,财富的主要来源是耕种。土地是财富的主要资本来源。
在承认各种生活方式和工作习惯的同时,这样的社会非常强调农业和耕种。在封建社会,财富的衡量标准是你拥有多少土地,以及为你在这些土地上劳作的农民。当一个官员,士兵或任何杰出的人对他们的王国/国家做出积极的贡献时,国王会奖励他们一块土地和一个高贵的头衔。让他们为生活做好准备。

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the Agrarian social economic system is static in nature as it ties people to a land for generations, compared to the hunter-gather society which are always mobile, moving to were the hunting games moves to: in some societies unless the landlord gives his permission or in times of war, no serfs are allowed leave the land they are bound to. Compared to hunting and gathering, agriculture provides for a significantly higher population density and the accumulation of surplus goods that can be stored for the winter or sold for a profit. The key driver of excess, specialization, advanced technology, hierarchical social structures, inequality, and standing armies was the ability of farmers to feed vast populations of people whose activities have little to do with the production of physical goods. Thus, complex social structures can arise in agrarian communities.
now that we have done with Agrarian societies let talk about nomadic pastorlists

农业社会经济制度在本质上是静态的,因为它将人们世世代代绑在一块土地上,相比之下,狩猎采集社会总是流动的,移动适合狩猎采集的地方。而在一些(农业)社会中,除非地主允许或在战争时期,农奴是不允许离开他们被束缚的土地的。
与狩猎和采集相比,农业提供了明显更高的人口密度和积累的剩余物品,这些物品可以储存起来过冬或出售牟利。过剩、专业化、先进技术、等级社会结构、不平等和常备军的关键驱动因素是农民能够养活大量人口的能力,而这些人口的活动与实物商品的生产几乎没有关系。因此,复杂的社会结构可能出现在农业社区。
讲完了农业社会,我们再来谈谈游牧民族。

Nomadic pastoralism is a way of life in which animals are herded by nomadic herders in search of new pastures to graze on. Contrary to transhumance, where seasonal pastures are fixed, nomads wander in an erratic pattern: when the grassland has been exhausted by their herd to move in search of new grazing lands for their herds. In this society wealth is measured in livestock's and gazing lands, compared to agrarian societies where land is seen as measurement of wealth. Livestock's are everything to nomadic herders. they are a source of food, clothing's, components for tool making, currency and gifts to visitors.
Now the Mongol falls into the nomadic pastoral categories, the land of Mongolia have very few lands for doing crop farming, so most of Mongol tribes practice animal husbandry, in addition to that, nomadic groups are also prone to raiding settled community, often to get things they cannot afford in trade, or because of a dispute between them and the settled society, but either way raiding was another venture for nomadic group to get riches as well as glory.
now to answer the question: Why didn’t Genghis Khan use the wealth and resources from his conquest to develop Mongolia?”

游牧是一种生活方式,在这种生活方式中,动物被游牧牧民放牧,以寻找新的牧场。与季节性牧场固定的泛人类化(transhumance)相反,游牧民族以一种不稳定的方式流浪:当草原被他们的牛群耗尽后,他们就会迁移,为他们的牛群寻找新的牧场。
在这个社会中,财富是用牲畜来衡量的,而在农业社会中,土地被视为财富的衡量标准。牲畜是游牧牧民的一切。它们是食物、衣服、工具制造、货币和游客礼物的来源。
蒙古人属于游牧牧区,蒙古的土地很少有土地可以种植农作物,所以蒙古部落大多实行畜牧业,除此之外,游牧群体还容易对定居社区进行掠夺。通常是为了获得他们在贸易中无法负担的东西,或者是因为他们与定居社会之间的纠纷,但无论哪种方式,掠夺都是游牧民族获得财富和荣耀的另一种冒险。
现在来回答这个问题:为什么成吉思汗没有利用他征服得来的财富和资源来发展蒙古?

Actually, he did, but not according to the model of an agrarian society. Recall that the Mongols were a nomadic pastoral people who valued grasslands for their herds to graze, not agricultural land. Genghis Khan followed this practice, though occasionally at the expense of some settled communities. Genghis made sure that his warriors and officers received an equitable portion of the war treasure after a successful raid or campaign. He would also provide the war plunder to widows and orphans who lost their husbands and fathers as a war pension.
Another interesting way he did improve the Mongol society was by transporting people with specialized skills such as doctors, teachers, craftsmen, alchemists, blacksmith, entertainers and even soldiers to Mongolia to share their expertise with the Mongol people; this in turn developed the silk road trade in the Mongol empire that benefited both the Mongols and subject people, in addition to introducing some Chinese inventions and products such as gunpowder and porcelains to the wider world.
so that all i got

事实上,他做到了,但不是按照农业社会的模式。回想一下,蒙古人是一个游牧民族,他们看重的是牧场,而不是农田。成吉思汗遵循了这种做法,尽管偶尔会牺牲一些定居社区。
成吉思汗确保他的战士和军官在一次成功的突袭或战役后得到一份公平的战争财富。他还将战争掠夺物作为战争抚恤金提供给失去丈夫和父亲的孤儿寡母。
他改善蒙古社会的另一种有趣的方式是将具有专业技能的人,如医生、教师、工匠、炼金术士、铁匠、艺人甚至士兵运送到蒙古,与蒙古人民分享他们的专业知识。这反过来又发展了蒙古帝国的丝绸之路贸易,使蒙古人和臣民都受益,此外还将中国的一些发明和产品,如火药和瓷器介绍到更广阔的世界。
以上就是我所了解的东西。

Yehsun
An alternative answer is also that Genghis did not invest in the place called Mongol but in the people called Mongols.
Until modern times, there was no concept of a fixed piece of land being a nation. Land ownership was an individual concept while nation was about people.
It was people groups that made a nation.
The steppes where the Mongols came from was not conducive to build a modern nation-state due to its geography and its location in the world.
So from this angle, Genghis Khan obxtive was to use his wealth and resources to develop the Mongol People.
And in this aspect, he was very successful since he single handed helped turn a group of backward nomads into what we would call “First World” citizens and enabled them to migrate to the most well-to-do regions of the world up to the industrial age.
From the trading empires in South and Southeast Asia to the superpower ottoman empire and even the Russian Empire, all had significant populations descended from Genghis and his peers. Many became important citizens, leaders, thinkers, etc that has contributed to world history.
Unfortunately, even after the Mongols became “developed” they could not shake off the labels associated with the level of brutality and destruction lixed to the period of Genghis conquests.

另一种答案是,成吉思汗并没有投资于蒙古,而是投资于蒙古人。
近代以前,没有“一块固定的土地就是一个国家”的概念。土地所有权是个人的概念,国家所有权是人的概念。是人民团体造就了一个国家。
蒙古人来自的大草原,由于其地理位置和在世界上的位置,不适合建立一个现代民族国家。所以从这个角度来看,成吉思汗的目标是用他的财富和资源来发展蒙古人民。在这方面,他非常成功,因为他一手帮助一群落后的游牧民族变成了我们所说的“第一世界”公民,并使他们能够迁移到世界上最富裕的地区,直到工业时代。
从南亚和东南亚的贸易帝国,到超级大国奥斯曼帝国,甚至是俄罗斯帝国,都有大量成吉思汗和他的同龄人的后裔。许多人成为重要的公民、领袖、思想家等,为世界历史做出了贡献。
不幸的是,即使在蒙古人变得“发达”之后,他们也无法摆脱与成吉思汗征服时期的残暴和破坏程度相关的标签。

Mr Potato
Of course he did. Or rather his son Ugudei khan did.
Ugudei khan built a beautiful city named Kharkhorum. He invited sculptors and architects from all around the world for this.
Sadly, it was destroyed by Chinese Ming dynasty.

成吉思汗当然有这样做,要不然他的儿子也替他做了。
Ugudei可汗建造了一座美丽的城市,叫做Kharkhorum(哈拉和林,蒙元帝国旧都)。为此,他邀请了来自世界各地的雕塑家和建筑师。



可惜的是,它被明朝摧毁了。

Manqing
Kharkhorum lost its glory in the Mongolian civil wars long before Ming dynasty army delivered the final punch to it.

早在明朝军队对其进行最后一击之前,Kharkhorum就在蒙古内战中失去了它的荣耀。

Mr Potato
Since Khanbilig became the capital of Yuan dynasty, Kharkhorum started to decline.

自Khanbilig(元大都)成为元朝都城后,Kharkhorum就开始衰落了。

Samuel Ademeso
Wait wasn't Kharkhorum destroyed by kublai during a civil war with his brother. I'm pretty sure it was destroyed due to the civil war among genghis family

等等,Kharkhorum不是在内战期间被忽必烈和他的兄弟摧毁的吗?
我很确定它是在成吉思汗家族的内战中被毁的。

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Mr Potato
No, the civil war never reached to Kharkhorum. However, after the civil war, the capital changed to Khanbilig and Kharkhorum started to lose it’s influence.

不,内战从未波及到Kharkhorum。然而,内战后,首都改为Khanbilig,Kharkhorum开始失去影响力。

Vladimir Wieyanto
When the Ming Chinese fought against the Yuan Mongol, the Ming had such unbridalled burning hatred in their hearts.
Which means, destruction such as this were quite prent during those times.
Very sad indeed.

当明朝与元朝蒙古人作战时,明朝人的心中充满了仇恨。
也就是说,这样的破坏在当时非常普遍。
真的很伤心。

Hu Shi Xiong
Considering what the mongols did that's a rather odd descxtion

考虑到蒙古人的所作所为,这是一个相当奇怪的描述

Vladimir Wieyanto
The Ming weren’t much better than the Mongols in terms of their brutality and cruelty

在残暴和残忍方面,明朝并不比蒙古人好多少。

Adrion VII
The only destructive actions the Ming did to foreigners were of the retributive kind, towards those that once waged brutality on them.
Ming’s territory was way smaller than Yuan’s.
Ming sent a peaceful envoy, Zheng He, to trade with the Indian Ocean nations without waging war on them.
Could you say the same for the Mongol Empire?

明朝对外国人唯一的破坏性行为是对那些曾经对他们进行暴行的人的报应。
明朝的领土比元朝小得多。
明朝派遣了一位和平使者郑和,与印度洋国家进行贸易,并没有对他们发动战争。
蒙古帝国也是这样吗?

Bryon Ye
Well the mongols destroyed entire societies, a city is nothing in return, they are still around today unlike some of their victims.

蒙古人摧毁了整个社会,(明朝摧毁)一座城市不足惜,他们今天仍然存在,不像他们的一些受害者。

Frans Arsene
Develop as in more urbanized?
Why would Temujin do that when the steppe already produced the most fearsome ranged cavalry army which trampled most of urbanized world of the Middle Age
Highly illogical
But in a way, the Khan did use the wealth and resources to develop Mongolia. Like the usage of Chinese siege engineers to build the siege engines needed to bring down Northern Jin walls.

发展蒙古?怎么个发展?发展得更城市化?
为什么铁木真要这么做,因为草原上已经诞生了最可怕的远程骑兵部队,他们践踏了中世纪大部分的城市化世界。
根本不合逻辑嘛。
但在某种程度上,可汗确实利用了财富和资源来发展蒙古。就像使用中国攻城工程师建造攻城器具来摧毁金朝城墙一样。

Richard Wang
He started as a nomad tribe, and in many cases, he was the grand chieftain of a nomad alliance. In his mind, wealth came largely from plunder, trade and taxation of territory, rather than from the development of the domestic economy.This Mongol mentality was not reversed until Kublai Khan.

他(成吉思汗)从一个游牧部落开始,在很多情况下,他是游牧联盟的大酋长。在他看来,财富主要来自对领土的掠夺、贸易和征税,而不是来自国内经济的发展。这种蒙古人的心态直到忽必烈才被扭转。

Lorenzo Casati
Your question shows that you are retrojecting modern ideas into a long-ago society. The Mongolian people knew no other way of life than their own and were proud of it so why should they have wanted to change that?

你的问题表明,你是在把现代思想倒退到很久以前的社会。蒙古人只知道他们自己的生活方式,并为此感到自豪,所以他们为什么要改变这一点呢?

Yauming
We’re talking about a pre-industrial nomadic people here. The temperature in Mongolia during winter time drops to -40C. People would want to move to better pastures during those times.
The Mongols were also into the habit of slaughtering all their enemies and turning their land into pasture for their horses.
When the Mongols advanced into Europe, European kings sent emissaries to the Mongols asking them not to keep on slaughtering all the peasants otherwise who would work the land and pay tax. The Mongols also toyed with the idea of killing all the Chinese people and turning all their land into pasture for their horses.
The Mongols had a different way of seeing “development”.
While we might see development as building cities, turning swampy land into rice fields, Mongols were into the business of conquering people, and killing any who resisted.

我们说的是工业化前的游牧民族。蒙古冬季的气温会下降到零下40摄氏度。在那段时期,人们会想搬到更好的牧场。
蒙古人还养成了屠杀所有敌人的习惯,把他们的土地变成了马匹的牧场。当蒙古人进入欧洲时,欧洲国王派使者去见蒙古人,要求他们不要继续屠杀农民,因为农民会种地和纳税。蒙古人还想过杀掉所有中国人,把他们所有的土地都变成放牧的牧场。
蒙古人对“发展”有不同的看法。在我们看来,发展就是建造城市,把沼泽变成稻田,而蒙古人则热衷于征服人,并杀死任何反抗的人。

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Carl Wimmer
I see that you do not read history.
When the Mongols went into China, their idea was to level everything so that they could restore pastures, to grow grass, for their horses.
Mongolia was already perfect, it was the rest of the world that needed Mongol assistance.
Remind you of anyone?

(发展蒙古?)我认为你不懂历史。
当蒙古人进入中国时,他们的想法是夷平一切,这样他们就可以改造成牧场,为他们的马匹种草。
蒙古已经很完美了,世界其他地方需要蒙古的帮助。
让你想起谁了吗?

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Faniel M. Soneira
I did hear that there was some debate over whether to depopulate China and have it be a pasture. Just as well they decided against it! Also I have a hazy memory of reading that the M’s were worried that they’d become weak if they got too into citified ways.

我确实听说有一些关于是否要消灭中国人口,让它成为一个牧场的争论。幸好他们决定不这么做!
我还模糊地记得读到过蒙古族担心如果他们太过都市化,他们会变得虚弱。

Dominic Roy Accampo
There was no means of communication that could keep that Empire together.
Within a single generation after the conquests ended, the Empire began to fall apart.
India was still, technically under Mongol rule for centuries after this, but the ruler of India was largely independent and as time passed, all of the local regions under this ruler were more and more independent, too often warring with each other and sometimes only obeying the overall ruler when it suited them. Sometimes these wars were with the approval of the overall ruler of India in attempts to punish out of control regional rulers who were sometimes very repressive of their local populations. Though other wars were conducted purely for power and it was into this environment of warring states like Holkar and Scindia that England joined in on the equation of Indian history.

当时没有任何通讯手段可以维持帝国的统一。在征服结束后的一代人时间里,帝国开始分崩离析。
从技术上讲,在这之后的几个世纪里,印度仍然在蒙古人的统治下,但印度的统治者基本上是独立的,随着时间的推移,在这个统治者统治下的所有地方都越来越独立,经常相互交战,有时只在对他们有利的时候服从统治者。
这些战争时而得到了印度统治者的批准,试图惩罚失控的地区统治者,时而是为了强力镇压当地民众。虽然大多战争纯粹是为了权力而战,但正是在这样一种环境下,英国加入了印度历史的进程。

Tyler Dorkin
Are you serious, The monguls conquered and ruled china and just about everything east of europe until 14th century then they broke into 4 seperate khanates and ruled major areas of Asia until 1687 and Russia until 1480.When Marco Polo visited china as the guest of the great Khan he sees riches and a society that is organized beyond anything seen in Europe at the time. The Monguls did not disappear. They also are renowned in history for adapting the administrative systems in the lands they conquered and making them their own. In china they had the original civil service exams where as many as 50000 hopefuls were sent from throughout china to compete for civil jobs. The people still in mongolia are mongul descendents as well and continue to live a nomadic lifestyle but the Kahns were thoroughly civilized emperors with communications throughout a vast empire that at the time took over a year to traverse. Their downfall was perhaps partly due to the fact that they had abandoned the ways of the step as the Yuan dynasty under Kublai Khan demonstrated to Marco Polo so beautifully. This unfortunately caused many civil wars between different factions. Also many of the other empires that emerged throughout the life of these various empires tbat originated from the mongol rulers were directly descended from the Khans. To say they disappeared is ridiculous.

发展蒙古?你是认真的吗,蒙古人征服并统治了中国和欧洲东部的一切,直到14世纪,然后他们分裂成4个独立的汗国,统治亚洲的主要地区直到1687年,统治俄罗斯直到1480年。当马可波罗作为大汗的客人访问中国时,他看到了当时欧洲所看不到的财富和社会组织。
蒙古人并没有消失。在历史上,他们还因在他们征服的土地上调整行政制度并使其成为自己的土地而闻名。在中国,他们有最初的公务员考试,从中国各地派出多达5万名有希望的人竞争公务员职位。
仍然居住在蒙古的人也是蒙古人的后裔,继续过着游牧的生活方式,但Kahns是完全文明的皇帝,在一个庞大的帝国内进行交流,当时需要一年多的时间才能横穿帝国。他们的衰落可能部分是因为他们放弃了元朝在忽必烈的统治下向马可·波罗完美展示的阶梯之路。
不幸的是,这在不同派系之间引起了许多内战。此外,在这些起源于蒙古统治者的帝国中出现的许多其他帝国都是可汗的直接后裔。说他们消失了是荒谬的。

Andreas Mihardja
Genghis Khan or actually his first generation sons mad one very big mistake. They want to control their big country as an overlord. His court officials in the region under his control were all foreigners to the region. They want to prevent that they will be undermined if they used the locals in the high positions that are accepted by the locals. The Yuan dynasty used people from Central Asia to govern China and v.v uase Mongolian and Han people to control their western territories. All the officials are not familiar with the local traditions and all are hated by the locals. This is the start of the fall of the Mongolian empire.

成吉思汗或者说他的第一代儿子犯了一个很大的错误。他们想以霸主的身份控制他们的庞大帝国。他所控制的地区的朝廷官员都是外国人。如果他们在高层职位上使用当地人,他们担心自己会被削弱,。
所以元朝用中亚人治理中国,用蒙古人和汉人治理西部领土。所有的官员都不熟悉当地的传统,都被当地人讨厌。这是蒙古帝国衰落的开始。

Paul Trejo
It seems to me that Genghis Khan’s grip on his conquests could be maintained only by continual military maneuvers on a nearly global scale. The vast expense of such military adventures evidently consumed all of his newfound riches.

在我看来,成吉思汗对他征服之地的控制只能通过在几乎全球范围内持续的军事演习来维持。这种军事冒险的巨大开支显然耗尽了他所有新获得的财富。

Adam Wu
He did.He established several new cities, created new trade routes, stabilized some others, created a postal service, among other things.
It is not for nothing that Genghis Khan is considered to be the founding father of the nation in Mongolia and holds a level of esteem equivalent to George Washington in the United States.
But a few things have to be kept in mind as well:
The mongols at the time were nomadic and to a large extent still are. They and Genghis did not want large permanent cities with permanent infrastructure because that was not what they were culturally used to. The cities Genghis founded in Mongolia were tent-based cities, where people came and went, bringing their tents with them, and when they ceased to be economically relevant long after Genghis’ time, the people just either left or stop coming, leaving little in the way of permanent infrastructure behind.
Genghis never completed his conquests in his lifetime. He was still fighting wars all the way up to his death in his 70s. So a lot of his time was still consumed in conquest rather than development.

发展蒙古,他做过了。
他建立了几座新城市,开辟了新的贸易路线,稳定了其他一些城市,建立了邮政服务等等。成吉思汗被认为是蒙古的国父,其威望相当于美国的乔治·华盛顿,这并非没有道理。
但也有几件事需要记住:
1. 当时的蒙古人是游牧民族,在很大程度上现在仍然是游牧民族。他们和成吉思汗不想要拥有永久性基础设施的大型永久性城市,因为这不是他们的文化习惯。成吉思汗在蒙古建立的城市是以帐篷为基础的城市,人们来来去去,带着他们的帐篷,在成吉思汗时代之后很久,当这些城市不再具有经济意义时,人们要么离开,要么不再来,几乎没有留下永久性的基础设施。
2. 成吉思汗一生都没有完成他的征服。他一直在打仗,直到70多岁去世。所以他的很多时间都花在了征服上,而不是发展上。

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