有神论者称“没有超过12000年的书面文件，所以上帝存在”，无神论者驳斥
正文翻译
Here is a 20,000 year old written document from Western Australia:
What was the question again?
这是一份来自西澳大利亚的20万年前的书面文件：
还有什么问题吗？
Here is a 20,000 year old written document from Western Australia:
What was the question again?
这是一份来自西澳大利亚的20万年前的书面文件：
还有什么问题吗？
评论翻译
Mike
What has the written word to do with a belief in God? If the concept was true, then he was here long before the written word. Religion is a belief; as it has to be. Nothing claimed by religions has ever been proven. It requires you to believe it. I don’t. It’s just a way humans have developed to counter the fear of death. But if it gives you satisfaction, then go for it.
书面文字与信仰上帝有什么关系?如果这个概念是正确的，那么他早在书面文字出现之前就存在了。宗教是一种信仰;这是必须的。宗教所宣称的一切都没有得到证实。它需要你去相信它。我不喜欢。这只是人类对抗死亡恐惧的一种方式。但如果它能给你满足感，那就去做吧。
What has the written word to do with a belief in God? If the concept was true, then he was here long before the written word. Religion is a belief; as it has to be. Nothing claimed by religions has ever been proven. It requires you to believe it. I don’t. It’s just a way humans have developed to counter the fear of death. But if it gives you satisfaction, then go for it.
书面文字与信仰上帝有什么关系?如果这个概念是正确的，那么他早在书面文字出现之前就存在了。宗教是一种信仰;这是必须的。宗教所宣称的一切都没有得到证实。它需要你去相信它。我不喜欢。这只是人类对抗死亡恐惧的一种方式。但如果它能给你满足感，那就去做吧。
Daniel Furaitar to Mike
I believe, but also with you on this. So what about the written word? Never understand this conflict either.
我相信，但也与你在这方面想的一样。那么书面文字呢?永远也不能理解这种矛盾。
I believe, but also with you on this. So what about the written word? Never understand this conflict either.
我相信，但也与你在这方面想的一样。那么书面文字呢?永远也不能理解这种矛盾。
Mike to Daniel Furaitar
I don’t know what others think this is; but I was referring to literally writing. Being able to record your thoughts. The Sumerian scxt from 3,400BC is the oldest currently acknowledged. That pre-dates Christianity just a tad. People had Gods and worshiped then too.
我不知道其他人是怎么想的;但我指的是字面上的写作。能够记录你的想法。公元前3400年的苏美尔文字是目前公认的最古老的文字。这比基督教还要早一点。那时人们有神，也崇拜神。
I don’t know what others think this is; but I was referring to literally writing. Being able to record your thoughts. The Sumerian scxt from 3,400BC is the oldest currently acknowledged. That pre-dates Christianity just a tad. People had Gods and worshiped then too.
我不知道其他人是怎么想的;但我指的是字面上的写作。能够记录你的想法。公元前3400年的苏美尔文字是目前公认的最古老的文字。这比基督教还要早一点。那时人们有神，也崇拜神。
David Chan to Mike
I disagree that the aboriginal art is not a record of someone's thought. You just do not know how to decode it! Look, , if you look at a piece of hieroglyphics, would you know whether it is a record of profound thought or an accounting entry?
我不同意原住民艺术不是某人思想的记录。你只是不知道如何解码!看，如果你看一块象形文字，你能知道它是深刻思想的记录还是会计记录（记账的记录）吗? ?
I disagree that the aboriginal art is not a record of someone's thought. You just do not know how to decode it! Look, , if you look at a piece of hieroglyphics, would you know whether it is a record of profound thought or an accounting entry?
我不同意原住民艺术不是某人思想的记录。你只是不知道如何解码!看，如果你看一块象形文字，你能知道它是深刻思想的记录还是会计记录（记账的记录）吗? ?
Mary Gentle to David Chan
I’d bet on the accounting entry, but that’s because I know so many Sumerian chicken-scratch tablets are about taxes, and I imagine Egypt is comparable? There are very few Enuma Elish and Gilgamesh out there.
But, what I think you’re doing is blurring the line between writing and painting/drawing.
We have cave pictures, and heiroglyphs, that are much older than homo sapiens. They were done by Neanderthals, and homo heidelbergensis, I believe.
Not that I think the OP really has an idea that there was more than one human race around, and that more than homo sapiens were capable of symbolic recording. But there are some things we can’t translate because we don’t have a Rosetta Stone (e.g. the Harappan language), and some things we can’t translate because we’ll never have a way to know what it means. The Western Australian images could be Munch’s ‘Scream’, or they could be ‘Kilroy was here’ — there’s no way to judge.
我敢打赌是会计记录，但那是因为我知道很多苏美尔人的鸡爪（形容不整洁且难以阅读的写作）泥板都是关于税收的，我想埃及也差不多吧?很少有“创世的七块泥板”和“吉尔伽美什史诗”（都是美索不达米亚的史诗）。
但是，我认为你正在模糊写作和绘画之间的界限。
我们有洞穴壁画和象形文字，它们比智人更古老。那是尼安德特人画的，或者是海德堡人画的，我想。
我并不认为发帖者真的认为世界上有不止一个人类种族，也不是只有智人有能力进行符号记录。但有些东西我们无法翻译，因为我们没有罗塞塔石碑(例如哈拉帕语)，有些东西我们无法翻译，因为我们永远都没有办法知道它的意思。西澳大利亚的图像可能是蒙克的“尖叫”，也可能是“基洛在这里”——没有办法判断。
I’d bet on the accounting entry, but that’s because I know so many Sumerian chicken-scratch tablets are about taxes, and I imagine Egypt is comparable? There are very few Enuma Elish and Gilgamesh out there.
But, what I think you’re doing is blurring the line between writing and painting/drawing.
We have cave pictures, and heiroglyphs, that are much older than homo sapiens. They were done by Neanderthals, and homo heidelbergensis, I believe.
Not that I think the OP really has an idea that there was more than one human race around, and that more than homo sapiens were capable of symbolic recording. But there are some things we can’t translate because we don’t have a Rosetta Stone (e.g. the Harappan language), and some things we can’t translate because we’ll never have a way to know what it means. The Western Australian images could be Munch’s ‘Scream’, or they could be ‘Kilroy was here’ — there’s no way to judge.
我敢打赌是会计记录，但那是因为我知道很多苏美尔人的鸡爪（形容不整洁且难以阅读的写作）泥板都是关于税收的，我想埃及也差不多吧?很少有“创世的七块泥板”和“吉尔伽美什史诗”（都是美索不达米亚的史诗）。
但是，我认为你正在模糊写作和绘画之间的界限。
我们有洞穴壁画和象形文字，它们比智人更古老。那是尼安德特人画的，或者是海德堡人画的，我想。
我并不认为发帖者真的认为世界上有不止一个人类种族，也不是只有智人有能力进行符号记录。但有些东西我们无法翻译，因为我们没有罗塞塔石碑(例如哈拉帕语)，有些东西我们无法翻译，因为我们永远都没有办法知道它的意思。西澳大利亚的图像可能是蒙克的“尖叫”，也可能是“基洛在这里”——没有办法判断。
Shayna Punim to Mike
While religion may have that outcome, the function of religion is to instill growth oriented behaviors in a culture.
Social Evolution requires good behavior to overcome any social hazard the environment presents and therefore religion is the owner of morality.
All cultures are trying to grow therefore all religions are in conflict with all other religions!
虽然宗教可能会有这样的结果，但宗教的功能是在文化中灌输以成长导向行为。
社会进化需要良好的行为来克服环境带来的任何社会危害，因此宗教是道德的主人。
所有的文化都在努力发展，因此所有的宗教都与其他宗教发生冲突!
While religion may have that outcome, the function of religion is to instill growth oriented behaviors in a culture.
Social Evolution requires good behavior to overcome any social hazard the environment presents and therefore religion is the owner of morality.
All cultures are trying to grow therefore all religions are in conflict with all other religions!
虽然宗教可能会有这样的结果，但宗教的功能是在文化中灌输以成长导向行为。
社会进化需要良好的行为来克服环境带来的任何社会危害，因此宗教是道德的主人。
所有的文化都在努力发展，因此所有的宗教都与其他宗教发生冲突!
Wesley Smith
They simply deny things are that old.
“Can't trust carbon dating!!”
“Can't prove how old they are!”
Like that.
他们只是否认事物有那么古老。
“不能相信碳测年法!!”
“无法证明它们的年龄!”
就像这样。
They simply deny things are that old.
“Can't trust carbon dating!!”
“Can't prove how old they are!”
Like that.
他们只是否认事物有那么古老。
“不能相信碳测年法!!”
“无法证明它们的年龄!”
就像这样。
Imran Roy to Wesley Smith
The same science that builds computers and smartphones is the one that uses carbon dating.
If one denounces science on one front, they should at least be honest enough to not use the devices built with the same scientific principles.
Religion detests hypocrisy before anything else. Modern religious fanatics are a shame for their religions.
制造电脑和智能手机的科学就是使用碳年代测定法的科学。
如果有人在某一方面谴责科学，他们至少应该足够诚实，不要使用用同样的科学原理建造的设备。
宗教最痛恨虚伪。现代宗教狂热分子是他们宗教的耻辱。
The same science that builds computers and smartphones is the one that uses carbon dating.
If one denounces science on one front, they should at least be honest enough to not use the devices built with the same scientific principles.
Religion detests hypocrisy before anything else. Modern religious fanatics are a shame for their religions.
制造电脑和智能手机的科学就是使用碳年代测定法的科学。
如果有人在某一方面谴责科学，他们至少应该足够诚实，不要使用用同样的科学原理建造的设备。
宗教最痛恨虚伪。现代宗教狂热分子是他们宗教的耻辱。
Wesley Smith
I tried that line of reasoning years ago when my father was Born Again and decided everything in the bible was 100% true. The are taught apologetic excuses (that are lame) that somehow make gross hypocrisy ok.
The man made a six figure income in the tech industry, worked with computers since the seventies. Religion is mental illness for the believer and a tool of mind control and opression.
Life is just physics and chemistry.
我几年前试过这样的逻辑，如果当我父亲复活时，我就认为圣经中的一切都是100%真实的。他们被教导道歉的借口(很蹩脚)，这在某种程度上让严重的虚伪变得可以接受。
我的父亲在科技行业赚了六位数的收入，从70年代开始就从事计算机工作。宗教是信徒的精神疾病，是精神控制和压迫的工具。
生命只是物理和化学。
I tried that line of reasoning years ago when my father was Born Again and decided everything in the bible was 100% true. The are taught apologetic excuses (that are lame) that somehow make gross hypocrisy ok.
The man made a six figure income in the tech industry, worked with computers since the seventies. Religion is mental illness for the believer and a tool of mind control and opression.
Life is just physics and chemistry.
我几年前试过这样的逻辑，如果当我父亲复活时，我就认为圣经中的一切都是100%真实的。他们被教导道歉的借口(很蹩脚)，这在某种程度上让严重的虚伪变得可以接受。
我的父亲在科技行业赚了六位数的收入，从70年代开始就从事计算机工作。宗教是信徒的精神疾病，是精神控制和压迫的工具。
生命只是物理和化学。
Imran Roy
Haha. If religion is a mental illness, then I'm one of the critically ill.
The purpose of religion is to answer questions which science cannot. It gives a direction and meaning to life. Religion was never meant to be a substitute for geology or physics or biology. If someone tries to do that, they will fall headlong on concrete.
Most of the prominent Arab scientists were devout Muslims. One of the scientists who proved proton decay (Dr Abdussalam) was a devout Muslim.
One of the brightest minds in mathematics ever born (Chandrasekhar Ramanujan) was a devout Hindu.
Those people knew better about science and mathematics than your average fanatical atheist. I am a science journalist and I can dare say I too, know slightly more about certain scientific topics than your average fanatical atheist.
Thing is, you cannot substitute religion for science or science for religion. Doing either is a stupid idea and bound to fail.
哈哈。如果宗教是一种精神疾病，那么我就是病入膏肓的人之一。
宗教的目的是回答科学不能回答的问题。它给人生指明了方向和意义。宗教从来就不是地质学、物理学或生物学的替代品。如果有人试图这么做，他们会一头栽在水泥地上。
大多数杰出的阿拉伯科学家都是虔诚的穆斯林。其中一位证明质子衰变的科学家(Abdussalam博士)是一位虔诚的穆斯林。
有史以来最聪明的数学头脑之一(钱德拉塞卡·拉马努金)是一个虔诚的印度教徒。
这些人比一般的狂热无神论者更懂科学和数学。我是一名科学记者，我也敢说，我对某些科学话题的了解比一般的狂热无神论者略胜一筹。
问题是，你不能用宗教代替科学，也不能用科学代替宗教。只做任何一件事都是愚蠢的想法，注定会失败。
Haha. If religion is a mental illness, then I'm one of the critically ill.
The purpose of religion is to answer questions which science cannot. It gives a direction and meaning to life. Religion was never meant to be a substitute for geology or physics or biology. If someone tries to do that, they will fall headlong on concrete.
Most of the prominent Arab scientists were devout Muslims. One of the scientists who proved proton decay (Dr Abdussalam) was a devout Muslim.
One of the brightest minds in mathematics ever born (Chandrasekhar Ramanujan) was a devout Hindu.
Those people knew better about science and mathematics than your average fanatical atheist. I am a science journalist and I can dare say I too, know slightly more about certain scientific topics than your average fanatical atheist.
Thing is, you cannot substitute religion for science or science for religion. Doing either is a stupid idea and bound to fail.
哈哈。如果宗教是一种精神疾病，那么我就是病入膏肓的人之一。
宗教的目的是回答科学不能回答的问题。它给人生指明了方向和意义。宗教从来就不是地质学、物理学或生物学的替代品。如果有人试图这么做，他们会一头栽在水泥地上。
大多数杰出的阿拉伯科学家都是虔诚的穆斯林。其中一位证明质子衰变的科学家(Abdussalam博士)是一位虔诚的穆斯林。
有史以来最聪明的数学头脑之一(钱德拉塞卡·拉马努金)是一个虔诚的印度教徒。
这些人比一般的狂热无神论者更懂科学和数学。我是一名科学记者，我也敢说，我对某些科学话题的了解比一般的狂热无神论者略胜一筹。
问题是，你不能用宗教代替科学，也不能用科学代替宗教。只做任何一件事都是愚蠢的想法，注定会失败。
Peter Kaye
Hahahahaha, religion IS hypocrisy, the bible contradicts itself continuously in the first two pages of the Old Testament that’s the main reason I threw it as far as I could when I was 14.
哈哈哈，宗教是虚伪的，圣经在旧约的前两页一直自相矛盾，这就是我在14岁的时候就尽可能把它扔得远远的主要原因。
Hahahahaha, religion IS hypocrisy, the bible contradicts itself continuously in the first two pages of the Old Testament that’s the main reason I threw it as far as I could when I was 14.
哈哈哈，宗教是虚伪的，圣经在旧约的前两页一直自相矛盾，这就是我在14岁的时候就尽可能把它扔得远远的主要原因。
Imran Roy to Peter Kaye
Religion itself is not hypocrisy.
Ignorant religious fanatics make it appear so.
Religion was never meant to be a substitute for science. If someone tries that, they will fail.
Keep religion at its place and science at its place and both will get along really smoothly. If you try to substitute one for the other, things will start falling apart.
And Christianity isn't the only religion out there. The failure of one specific religion doesn't mean all religions are hypocritical or a failure.
宗教本身并不是虚伪的。
是无知的宗教狂热分子让它看起来如此。
宗教从来就不是科学的替代品。如果有人尝试那样做，他们会失败。
把宗教和科学放在自己的位置上，两者都会很顺利地相处。如果你试图用一个来代替另一个，事情就会开始分崩离析。
基督教并不是唯一的宗教。一个特定宗教的失败并不意味着所有宗教都是虚伪的或失败的。
Religion itself is not hypocrisy.
Ignorant religious fanatics make it appear so.
Religion was never meant to be a substitute for science. If someone tries that, they will fail.
Keep religion at its place and science at its place and both will get along really smoothly. If you try to substitute one for the other, things will start falling apart.
And Christianity isn't the only religion out there. The failure of one specific religion doesn't mean all religions are hypocritical or a failure.
宗教本身并不是虚伪的。
是无知的宗教狂热分子让它看起来如此。
宗教从来就不是科学的替代品。如果有人尝试那样做，他们会失败。
把宗教和科学放在自己的位置上，两者都会很顺利地相处。如果你试图用一个来代替另一个，事情就会开始分崩离析。
基督教并不是唯一的宗教。一个特定宗教的失败并不意味着所有宗教都是虚伪的或失败的。
Trev Doyle
How can atheism be false? Impossible. I know unequivocally that it exists.
无神论怎么可能是错误的呢?不可能的。我清楚地知道它的存在。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
How can atheism be false? Impossible. I know unequivocally that it exists.
无神论怎么可能是错误的呢?不可能的。我清楚地知道它的存在。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Dan Johns
Or even the 40000 yr old cave of hands
甚至是40000年前的手印洞穴
Or even the 40000 yr old cave of hands
甚至是40000年前的手印洞穴
Alex Thornton
I can just imagine the bunching of rosary scarred fists, and mouth contorted in pious gnashing rage….
我可以想象伤痕累累的拳头紧握一串念珠，和扭曲的嘴在虔诚的咬牙愤怒....
I can just imagine the bunching of rosary scarred fists, and mouth contorted in pious gnashing rage….
我可以想象伤痕累累的拳头紧握一串念珠，和扭曲的嘴在虔诚的咬牙愤怒....
Clanger Invasion
Religions are creations with a sociological and psychological purpose, they are our own inventions, thats all they are. its is all they will ever be. they will change.
That does not denigrate from them, their utility or purpose, but they are what they are.
Having faith in them is a matter of utility, and thats a choice, not an absolute. sexting the absolute is a political act.
So, just don’t go trying to justify the abstract and complete rambling codswallop which you know it outside the realm of a choice of faith.
It’s a question of given rather than realised identity, and that’s become important. Its shows whether somone is capable of comprehending what the world is and what it’s about.
You have at least 5 kinds of identity, but let’s not go there right now.
If you didn’t make the choice about religion, or cannot comprehend a balance of utility vs reality, have a word with yourself, because you don’t know who or what you are.
The hardest choice is atheism, for the reason that you don’t get the easy codex to follow, all laid out for you. You have to contemplate, rationalise, discover and define. You aren’t just taking someone else’s word for it. You don’t get the comforts of familiarity. You dientity is one you must define by what you do and become. It’s not for the lazy person.
宗教是带有社会学和心理学目的的创造物，它们是我们自己的发明，仅此而已。他们永远都是这样。他们也会改变的。
这并不是诋毁他们，他们的效用或目的，但他们就是他们。
相信他们是一个实用的问题，这是一种选择，而不是绝对的。选择绝对是一种政治行为。
所以，不要试图证明那些抽象的、完全的、漫无边际的胡说八道，因为你知道它超出了信仰选择的范畴。
这是一个给定身份的问题，而不是实现身份的问题，这变得很重要。它显示了一个人是否有能力理解这个世界是什么，它是关于什么的。
你至少有5种身份，但我们现在先不谈这个。
如果你没有选择宗教，或者不能理解功利与现实的平衡，和你自己说句话，因为你不知道你是谁或你是什么。
最难的选择是无神论，原因是你没有简单的抄本，都摆在你面前。你必须思考、合理化、发现和定义。你不能只相信别人的话。你不会因为熟悉而感到舒适。你的身份是你必须通过你所做的事情和成为的人来定义的。它不适合懒人。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Religions are creations with a sociological and psychological purpose, they are our own inventions, thats all they are. its is all they will ever be. they will change.
That does not denigrate from them, their utility or purpose, but they are what they are.
Having faith in them is a matter of utility, and thats a choice, not an absolute. sexting the absolute is a political act.
So, just don’t go trying to justify the abstract and complete rambling codswallop which you know it outside the realm of a choice of faith.
It’s a question of given rather than realised identity, and that’s become important. Its shows whether somone is capable of comprehending what the world is and what it’s about.
You have at least 5 kinds of identity, but let’s not go there right now.
If you didn’t make the choice about religion, or cannot comprehend a balance of utility vs reality, have a word with yourself, because you don’t know who or what you are.
The hardest choice is atheism, for the reason that you don’t get the easy codex to follow, all laid out for you. You have to contemplate, rationalise, discover and define. You aren’t just taking someone else’s word for it. You don’t get the comforts of familiarity. You dientity is one you must define by what you do and become. It’s not for the lazy person.
宗教是带有社会学和心理学目的的创造物，它们是我们自己的发明，仅此而已。他们永远都是这样。他们也会改变的。
这并不是诋毁他们，他们的效用或目的，但他们就是他们。
相信他们是一个实用的问题，这是一种选择，而不是绝对的。选择绝对是一种政治行为。
所以，不要试图证明那些抽象的、完全的、漫无边际的胡说八道，因为你知道它超出了信仰选择的范畴。
这是一个给定身份的问题，而不是实现身份的问题，这变得很重要。它显示了一个人是否有能力理解这个世界是什么，它是关于什么的。
你至少有5种身份，但我们现在先不谈这个。
如果你没有选择宗教，或者不能理解功利与现实的平衡，和你自己说句话，因为你不知道你是谁或你是什么。
最难的选择是无神论，原因是你没有简单的抄本，都摆在你面前。你必须思考、合理化、发现和定义。你不能只相信别人的话。你不会因为熟悉而感到舒适。你的身份是你必须通过你所做的事情和成为的人来定义的。它不适合懒人。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Colin Wright
Cave painting is written documentation of available game, who had been there previously and probably a lot more information we hadn't considered useful for early man.
洞穴壁画是可获得的游戏书面记录，之前有人去过那里，可能有更多我们认为对早期人类没有用处的信息。
Cave painting is written documentation of available game, who had been there previously and probably a lot more information we hadn't considered useful for early man.
洞穴壁画是可获得的游戏书面记录，之前有人去过那里，可能有更多我们认为对早期人类没有用处的信息。
Derek Jackett to Colin Wright
Well in terms of some European cave paintings of animals there was a sort of proto writing in that some of the markings conveyed information on when young easier to hunt animals would be born. Also some of the information might have been used to help train children on what to expect on a hunt as well.
Others seem to have been for want of better phrasing votive works to help keep the world in order. But we are talking 20,000 years ago information produced by people as smart as we are but living in a very different world with a different world view. Still it does allows us to know more about them even if we do not understand everything it tries to say.
就一些欧洲洞穴动物绘画而言，那里有一种原始的文字，因为一些标记传达了容易捕猎的年轻动物何时出生的信息。还有一些信息可能被用来帮助训练孩子们知道在狩猎中会发生什么。
另一些人似乎是想要更好地表达祈愿，以帮助维持世界秩序。但我们说的是2万年前的信息，这些信息是由和我们一样聪明的人产生的，但他们生活在一个完全不同的世界，有着不同的世界观。尽管如此，它确实让我们更多地了解它们，即使我们不理解它试图说的一切。
Well in terms of some European cave paintings of animals there was a sort of proto writing in that some of the markings conveyed information on when young easier to hunt animals would be born. Also some of the information might have been used to help train children on what to expect on a hunt as well.
Others seem to have been for want of better phrasing votive works to help keep the world in order. But we are talking 20,000 years ago information produced by people as smart as we are but living in a very different world with a different world view. Still it does allows us to know more about them even if we do not understand everything it tries to say.
就一些欧洲洞穴动物绘画而言，那里有一种原始的文字，因为一些标记传达了容易捕猎的年轻动物何时出生的信息。还有一些信息可能被用来帮助训练孩子们知道在狩猎中会发生什么。
另一些人似乎是想要更好地表达祈愿，以帮助维持世界秩序。但我们说的是2万年前的信息，这些信息是由和我们一样聪明的人产生的，但他们生活在一个完全不同的世界，有着不同的世界观。尽管如此，它确实让我们更多地了解它们，即使我们不理解它试图说的一切。
Eugene Blinn
Anything you bring up that contradicts a zealot’s religious views will be met with “God put that there to test our faith”
in other words - any “argument” with one of these people ALWAYS ends in a stalemate
你提出的任何与狂热者的宗教观点相矛盾的事情都会被回应为“上帝放在那里是为了考验我们的信仰”
换句话说，任何与这些人的“争论”总是以僵局告终
Anything you bring up that contradicts a zealot’s religious views will be met with “God put that there to test our faith”
in other words - any “argument” with one of these people ALWAYS ends in a stalemate
你提出的任何与狂热者的宗教观点相矛盾的事情都会被回应为“上帝放在那里是为了考验我们的信仰”
换句话说，任何与这些人的“争论”总是以僵局告终
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