网友讨论“如果我是白人，带便当去学校，人们会指责我文化挪用吗?”“不，文化是自由的”
正文翻译
I’m reminded of this:
我想起了这个:
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
我想起了这个:
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
“Anonymous” here calls out the “white” girl on the left for cultural appropriation and wearing a “kimono”, and the girl then posts a picture of herself showing that she’s Japanese.
Now there’s lot to unpack here.
Firstly, Japanese people are white. No, seriously, I’m Irish, and we’re pretty much the whitest people in the whole of Europe. A lot of my Japanese students are whiter than I am, although mostly it is the girls who avoid sunlight like they’re vampires because pale skin is generally still seen as a status symbol (it’s a holdover in beauty standards from the past where peasants had to work outdoors and got tanned, while nobles could stay indoors and were paler).
So let’s get rid of this “yellow people” nonsense. The average Japanese person is probably whiter than you are.
“匿名者”在这里指责左边的“白人”女孩是文化挪用，穿着“和服”，然后这个女孩发布了一张自己的照片，表明她是日本人。
这里有很多东西要打开。
首先，日本人是白人。不，说真的，我是爱尔兰人，我们几乎是整个欧洲最白的人。我的很多日本学生都比我白，尽管大多数是女孩像吸血鬼一样躲避阳光，因为苍白的皮肤通常仍然被视为地位的象征(这是过去的审美标准的延续，农民必须在户外工作，皮肤被晒黑，而贵族可以呆在室内，皮肤更白)。
所以让我们摆脱这种“黄种人”的废话吧。一般日本人可能都比你白。
Now there’s lot to unpack here.
Firstly, Japanese people are white. No, seriously, I’m Irish, and we’re pretty much the whitest people in the whole of Europe. A lot of my Japanese students are whiter than I am, although mostly it is the girls who avoid sunlight like they’re vampires because pale skin is generally still seen as a status symbol (it’s a holdover in beauty standards from the past where peasants had to work outdoors and got tanned, while nobles could stay indoors and were paler).
So let’s get rid of this “yellow people” nonsense. The average Japanese person is probably whiter than you are.
“匿名者”在这里指责左边的“白人”女孩是文化挪用，穿着“和服”，然后这个女孩发布了一张自己的照片，表明她是日本人。
这里有很多东西要打开。
首先，日本人是白人。不，说真的，我是爱尔兰人，我们几乎是整个欧洲最白的人。我的很多日本学生都比我白，尽管大多数是女孩像吸血鬼一样躲避阳光，因为苍白的皮肤通常仍然被视为地位的象征(这是过去的审美标准的延续，农民必须在户外工作，皮肤被晒黑，而贵族可以呆在室内，皮肤更白)。
所以让我们摆脱这种“黄种人”的废话吧。一般日本人可能都比你白。
Interestingly when I first arrived in Japan I thought I’d gone to the wrong country, because I saw the tennis team playing, and they were Indian-brown. Japanese people can go incredibly brown in summer, but that just highlights the ridiculousness of the entire “skin colour” discourse when someone can go from “Omg! They’re brown” to “Whiter than the Irish” during the course of a single year. Human stupidity in action.
Oh, and her red hair? Most schools in Japan have strict rules about not dying hair, so the first thing most university students do is dye their hair crazy colours. Last year blueish-white was really “in”, I think because some K-pop star had it that colour, but a couple of years before that I saw the red colour in this photo quite a bit.
有趣的是，当我第一次到日本时，我以为我走错了国家，因为我看到了网球队的比赛，他们是印度棕色的。日本人在夏天可以变成令人难以置信的棕色，但这只是强调了整个“肤色”话语的荒谬，因为有人可以从“天哪!在一年中，他们是棕色的”到“比爱尔兰人更白”。人类的愚蠢在行动。
哦，还有她的红头发?日本大多数学校对染发都有严格的规定，所以大多数大学生做的第一件事就是把头发染成疯狂的颜色。去年蓝白色真的很“流行”，我想是因为一些韩国流行歌手有这种颜色，但在那之前几年，我在这类照片里看到了很多红色。
Oh, and her red hair? Most schools in Japan have strict rules about not dying hair, so the first thing most university students do is dye their hair crazy colours. Last year blueish-white was really “in”, I think because some K-pop star had it that colour, but a couple of years before that I saw the red colour in this photo quite a bit.
有趣的是，当我第一次到日本时，我以为我走错了国家，因为我看到了网球队的比赛，他们是印度棕色的。日本人在夏天可以变成令人难以置信的棕色，但这只是强调了整个“肤色”话语的荒谬，因为有人可以从“天哪!在一年中，他们是棕色的”到“比爱尔兰人更白”。人类的愚蠢在行动。
哦，还有她的红头发?日本大多数学校对染发都有严格的规定，所以大多数大学生做的第一件事就是把头发染成疯狂的颜色。去年蓝白色真的很“流行”，我想是因为一些韩国流行歌手有这种颜色，但在那之前几年，我在这类照片里看到了很多红色。
Secondly, Japanese people are very happy when people imitate their culture. They love people eating sushi, making bentos, and every international festival I’ve been to in Japan has had a corner for Westerners to try on kimonos and get photos taken.
Why? Because it promotes communication, exchange of ideas and culture, and is good for peace. It is easy to go to war with someone you don’t know or understand. It is far harder to go to war with someone whose clothing you’re wearing and whose food you eat. Not impossible, but harder. As a result the Japanese generally promote international exchanges of ideas, language, culture, etc.
Also note that part of the reason Japanese people don’t tend to fuss about “cultural appropriation” is in no small part because they’re reasonably rich.
其次，当人们模仿他们的文化时，日本人非常高兴。他们喜欢人们吃寿司、做便当，我去过的每一个日本国际节日都有一个角落供西方人试穿和服和拍照。
为什么?因为它促进了沟通，思想和文化的交流，有利于和平。与你不认识或不了解的人开战是很容易的。与你穿他的衣服、吃他的食物的人开战要困难得多。不是不可能，但更难。因此，日本人普遍促进思想、语言、文化等方面的国际交流。
还要注意的是，日本人不倾向于对“文化挪用”大惊小怪的部分原因在很大程度上是因为他们相当富有。
Why? Because it promotes communication, exchange of ideas and culture, and is good for peace. It is easy to go to war with someone you don’t know or understand. It is far harder to go to war with someone whose clothing you’re wearing and whose food you eat. Not impossible, but harder. As a result the Japanese generally promote international exchanges of ideas, language, culture, etc.
Also note that part of the reason Japanese people don’t tend to fuss about “cultural appropriation” is in no small part because they’re reasonably rich.
其次，当人们模仿他们的文化时，日本人非常高兴。他们喜欢人们吃寿司、做便当，我去过的每一个日本国际节日都有一个角落供西方人试穿和服和拍照。
为什么?因为它促进了沟通，思想和文化的交流，有利于和平。与你不认识或不了解的人开战是很容易的。与你穿他的衣服、吃他的食物的人开战要困难得多。不是不可能，但更难。因此，日本人普遍促进思想、语言、文化等方面的国际交流。
还要注意的是，日本人不倾向于对“文化挪用”大惊小怪的部分原因在很大程度上是因为他们相当富有。
Which leads us onto the topic of “what is cultural appropriation”?
Honestly this is a phrase that has been hijacked from academia by the public, and is actually a very nuanced and complex academic debate that has been dumbed down, warped and then put through a pasta-making machine until it has reached the point where nobody in the general public really knows what it means, because it is being used by a whole lot of different people in a whole lot of different ways. The words “cultural appropriation” have become utterly meaningless.
However I can give you a simple example of why it was such a big debate in academia.
这就给我们引出了“什么是文化挪用”的话题。
老实说，这是一个被公众从学术界劫持的短语，实际上是一个非常微妙和复杂的学术辩论，它被简化了，扭曲了，然后放进“意大利面制作机器”，直到它达到了一个普通公众中没有人真正知道它的意思的地步，因为它被很多不同的人以很多不同的方式使用。“文化挪用”这个词已经变得毫无意义。
然而，我可以给你一个简单的例子，为什么这在学术界是一个大争论。
Honestly this is a phrase that has been hijacked from academia by the public, and is actually a very nuanced and complex academic debate that has been dumbed down, warped and then put through a pasta-making machine until it has reached the point where nobody in the general public really knows what it means, because it is being used by a whole lot of different people in a whole lot of different ways. The words “cultural appropriation” have become utterly meaningless.
However I can give you a simple example of why it was such a big debate in academia.
这就给我们引出了“什么是文化挪用”的话题。
老实说，这是一个被公众从学术界劫持的短语，实际上是一个非常微妙和复杂的学术辩论，它被简化了，扭曲了，然后放进“意大利面制作机器”，直到它达到了一个普通公众中没有人真正知道它的意思的地步，因为它被很多不同的人以很多不同的方式使用。“文化挪用”这个词已经变得毫无意义。
然而，我可以给你一个简单的例子，为什么这在学术界是一个大争论。
Western pharmaceuticals companies have a nasty habit of going to Africa, Asia, or South America to some really poor tribe and asking their local witch doctor, wise woman, or elders, “So, what natural medicines do you use?”.
These company reps then grab samples of that plant, animal, or stone, and take it back to their labs where (using that tribe’s wisdom collected over thousands of years as a starting point to know what to look for) they identify the key compounds, test them on lab animals, find out what they do, then develop new drugs that they sell for billions of dollars.
… and of course the poor tribe in Africa or wherever never sees a single cent of those profits. In some cases the plant is indigenous to the area and only grows well there so the company may even buy up their land and have that tribe removed so they can mass cultivate their newest miracle drug. Of course they’re not buying the land from the tribe, but some government official, so again the tribe gets nothing but shafted, and in some extreme cases tribes have fought back and lives have been lost. Yes, companies literally killing people so they can steal their stuff. Who says colonialism is dead?
西方制药公司有一个讨厌的习惯，他们去非洲、亚洲或南美洲的一些非常贫穷的部落，问他们当地的巫医、智者或长老，“那么，你们用什么天然药物?”
然后，这些公司的代表会采集该植物、动物或石头的样本，并将其带回实验室(以该部落数千年来收集的智慧为起点，知道要寻找什么)，在那里确定关键化合物，在实验室动物身上进行测试，了解它们的作用，然后开发出新的药物，并以数十亿美元的价格出售。
当然，非洲或其他地方的贫穷部落从未从这些利润中分得一分钱。在某些情况下，这种植物是该地区的本土植物，只在那里生长得很好，所以制药公司甚至可能买下他们的土地，把那个部落赶走，这样他们就可以大规模种植他们最新的神奇药物。当然他们不是从部落那里买地，而是从政府官员那里买地，所以部落什么也得不到，只是受到了欺骗，在一些极端的情况下，部落进行了反击，造成了人员伤亡。是的，公司确实在杀人，这样他们就可以偷他们的东西。谁说殖民主义已经死了?
These company reps then grab samples of that plant, animal, or stone, and take it back to their labs where (using that tribe’s wisdom collected over thousands of years as a starting point to know what to look for) they identify the key compounds, test them on lab animals, find out what they do, then develop new drugs that they sell for billions of dollars.
… and of course the poor tribe in Africa or wherever never sees a single cent of those profits. In some cases the plant is indigenous to the area and only grows well there so the company may even buy up their land and have that tribe removed so they can mass cultivate their newest miracle drug. Of course they’re not buying the land from the tribe, but some government official, so again the tribe gets nothing but shafted, and in some extreme cases tribes have fought back and lives have been lost. Yes, companies literally killing people so they can steal their stuff. Who says colonialism is dead?
西方制药公司有一个讨厌的习惯，他们去非洲、亚洲或南美洲的一些非常贫穷的部落，问他们当地的巫医、智者或长老，“那么，你们用什么天然药物?”
然后，这些公司的代表会采集该植物、动物或石头的样本，并将其带回实验室(以该部落数千年来收集的智慧为起点，知道要寻找什么)，在那里确定关键化合物，在实验室动物身上进行测试，了解它们的作用，然后开发出新的药物，并以数十亿美元的价格出售。
当然，非洲或其他地方的贫穷部落从未从这些利润中分得一分钱。在某些情况下，这种植物是该地区的本土植物，只在那里生长得很好，所以制药公司甚至可能买下他们的土地，把那个部落赶走，这样他们就可以大规模种植他们最新的神奇药物。当然他们不是从部落那里买地，而是从政府官员那里买地，所以部落什么也得不到，只是受到了欺骗，在一些极端的情况下，部落进行了反击，造成了人员伤亡。是的，公司确实在杀人，这样他们就可以偷他们的东西。谁说殖民主义已经死了?
This is an example of cultural appropriation. It is corporations profiting from another culture’s intellectual property (whether that be medicines, clothing designs, etc.) without paying for it.
Disney movies like Moana, which profited from retelling Hawaiian folk stories, but never shared a single dollar of the profits with the Hawaiian people, are an example of cultural appropriation.
Fashion designers going to Africa and copying “ethnic” patterns and selling those designs as their own intellectual property, without paying the people they stole them from, are an example of cultural appropriation.
The key issue is the belief that poor tribes don’t have a right to their own intellectual property because they’re ignorant of intellectual property laws and lack the money and resources to fight back against this sort of exploitative business process.
这是一个文化挪用的例子。它是企业从另一种文化的知识产权(无论是药品、服装设计等)中获利而不支付费用。
像《海洋奇缘》这样的迪士尼电影，从复述夏威夷民间故事中获利，但从未与夏威夷人民分享一分钱的利润，就是文化挪用的一个例子。
时装设计师去非洲复制“民族”图案，并将这些设计作为自己的知识产权出售，而不付钱给被偷的人，这就是文化挪用的一个例子。
关键问题在于，人们认为贫穷的部落没有权利拥有自己的知识产权，因为他们对知识产权法一无所知，而且缺乏资金和资源来反击这种剥削性的商业过程。
Disney movies like Moana, which profited from retelling Hawaiian folk stories, but never shared a single dollar of the profits with the Hawaiian people, are an example of cultural appropriation.
Fashion designers going to Africa and copying “ethnic” patterns and selling those designs as their own intellectual property, without paying the people they stole them from, are an example of cultural appropriation.
The key issue is the belief that poor tribes don’t have a right to their own intellectual property because they’re ignorant of intellectual property laws and lack the money and resources to fight back against this sort of exploitative business process.
这是一个文化挪用的例子。它是企业从另一种文化的知识产权(无论是药品、服装设计等)中获利而不支付费用。
像《海洋奇缘》这样的迪士尼电影，从复述夏威夷民间故事中获利，但从未与夏威夷人民分享一分钱的利润，就是文化挪用的一个例子。
时装设计师去非洲复制“民族”图案，并将这些设计作为自己的知识产权出售，而不付钱给被偷的人，这就是文化挪用的一个例子。
关键问题在于，人们认为贫穷的部落没有权利拥有自己的知识产权，因为他们对知识产权法一无所知，而且缺乏资金和资源来反击这种剥削性的商业过程。
As the global economy moves increasingly towards an “ideas economy” this sort of exploitation is becoming more serious, and a lot more lucrative for companies.
“Cultural appropriation” was never intended to be about shaming some little girl wearing a kimono at her tea party with her dollies, or about yelling at you for making bentos (although the company selling the “bento boxes” probably has some questions to answer if they’ve copied those designs from Japanese bento box companies and not paid for the design).
In short, if you’re not making a profit off some other culture’s intellectual property then you’re in the clear.
If you were selling “Japanese bento lunches” then maybe, possibly, perhaps an argument could be made that it would be good manners and ethically responsible to ensure that some portion of your profits went to Japan or a Japanese charity.
However just making and eating a “bento”? Seriously, no. That’s in no way “cultural appropriation”. You’re not a huge corporation stealing intellectual property from poor people and then not paying them anything for their ideas.
随着全球经济日益走向“创意经济”，这种剥削正变得越来越严重，企业的利润也越来越丰厚。
“文化挪用”从来不是为了羞辱那些在茶话会上穿着和服的小女孩和她的洋娃娃，也不是为了对你做便当大喊大叫(尽管销售“便当盒”的公司可能有一些问题要回答，如果他们抄袭了日本便当盒公司的设计，并且没有支付设计费用)。
简而言之，如果你没有从其他文化的知识产权中获利，那么你就没有问题了。
如果你卖的是“日式便当午餐”，那么也许，也许有人会说，确保你的部分利润捐给日本或日本慈善机构是一种礼貌和道德上的负责任。
然而，只是做一个“便当”?说真的,没有。这绝不是“文化挪用”。你不是一个大公司，从穷人那里窃取知识产权，然后不为他们的想法支付任何费用。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
“Cultural appropriation” was never intended to be about shaming some little girl wearing a kimono at her tea party with her dollies, or about yelling at you for making bentos (although the company selling the “bento boxes” probably has some questions to answer if they’ve copied those designs from Japanese bento box companies and not paid for the design).
In short, if you’re not making a profit off some other culture’s intellectual property then you’re in the clear.
If you were selling “Japanese bento lunches” then maybe, possibly, perhaps an argument could be made that it would be good manners and ethically responsible to ensure that some portion of your profits went to Japan or a Japanese charity.
However just making and eating a “bento”? Seriously, no. That’s in no way “cultural appropriation”. You’re not a huge corporation stealing intellectual property from poor people and then not paying them anything for their ideas.
随着全球经济日益走向“创意经济”，这种剥削正变得越来越严重，企业的利润也越来越丰厚。
“文化挪用”从来不是为了羞辱那些在茶话会上穿着和服的小女孩和她的洋娃娃，也不是为了对你做便当大喊大叫(尽管销售“便当盒”的公司可能有一些问题要回答，如果他们抄袭了日本便当盒公司的设计，并且没有支付设计费用)。
简而言之，如果你没有从其他文化的知识产权中获利，那么你就没有问题了。
如果你卖的是“日式便当午餐”，那么也许，也许有人会说，确保你的部分利润捐给日本或日本慈善机构是一种礼貌和道德上的负责任。
然而，只是做一个“便当”?说真的,没有。这绝不是“文化挪用”。你不是一个大公司，从穷人那里窃取知识产权，然后不为他们的想法支付任何费用。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
评论翻译
Yagoo Warrior
Can I know why the West seems to be very hung up on this ‘cultural appropriation’ thing? Like me, when I go to another country, I wanna learn as much as I can about their culture and in the process surely eat their food or wear their traditional clothing. But the West seems to make a big fuss about white people can’t do this.
我能知道为什么西方似乎非常执着于这种“文化挪用”的事情吗？像我一样，当我去另一个国家时，我想尽可能多地了解他们的文化，在这个过程中肯定会吃他们的食物或穿他们的传统服装。但西方似乎对白人不能这样做而大做文章。
Can I know why the West seems to be very hung up on this ‘cultural appropriation’ thing? Like me, when I go to another country, I wanna learn as much as I can about their culture and in the process surely eat their food or wear their traditional clothing. But the West seems to make a big fuss about white people can’t do this.
我能知道为什么西方似乎非常执着于这种“文化挪用”的事情吗？像我一样，当我去另一个国家时，我想尽可能多地了解他们的文化，在这个过程中肯定会吃他们的食物或穿他们的传统服装。但西方似乎对白人不能这样做而大做文章。
Lukasz Bernas to Yagoo Warrior
Not West. It’s purely American thing. I never even encountered such a word in UK. Heck, the British tea is originally from India..
不是西方。这纯粹是美国人的事。我在英国都没见过这个词。见鬼，英国茶原产于印度。
Not West. It’s purely American thing. I never even encountered such a word in UK. Heck, the British tea is originally from India..
不是西方。这纯粹是美国人的事。我在英国都没见过这个词。见鬼，英国茶原产于印度。
Louis Weinblatt to Lukasz Bernas
Actually it originated from China and was later grown in India after was taken over in order to undercut their hold on the tea trade. It’s a small clarification (You may think it doesn't matter) but I think it’s worth remembering the history.
实际上，茶起源于中国，后来在印度被接管后种植，以削弱他们对茶叶贸易的控制。这只是一个小小的澄清（你可能觉得无所谓），但我认为值得记住这段历史。
Actually it originated from China and was later grown in India after was taken over in order to undercut their hold on the tea trade. It’s a small clarification (You may think it doesn't matter) but I think it’s worth remembering the history.
实际上，茶起源于中国，后来在印度被接管后种植，以削弱他们对茶叶贸易的控制。这只是一个小小的澄清（你可能觉得无所谓），但我认为值得记住这段历史。
Lukasz Bernas to Louis Weinblatt
So, it’s double ‘cultural appropriation’
所以，这是双重的“文化挪用”
So, it’s double ‘cultural appropriation’
所以，这是双重的“文化挪用”
Harra Arial to Yagoo Warrior
From my experience as a US-American, people are often bullied or marginalized for things that are too far outside the usual “White Anglo-Saxon Protestant” culture. This especially extends to things like beauty/hygiene and food.
So Americans who grew up being bullied for their cultural staples feel rightly shafted when white Americans start copying those staples and popularizing them into trends. For example, countless Black American students have received disciplinary actions in school for wearing their hair in cornrows—a style that is protective when your hair surpasses a 3B curl pattern(Myths and Tips about Protective Styles!); while white celebrities used to be celebrated as hip and trendy for wearing the same hairstyle when they do not need it to protect their hair from dryness or damage.
从我作为一个美国人的经验来看，人们经常因为一些与通常的“白人盎格鲁-撒克逊新教”文化相距甚远的事情而受到欺凌或边缘化。这一点尤其适用于美容/卫生和食品。
因此，当美国白人开始复制这些主要文化并将其推广为趋势时，那些在文化上被欺负的美国人感到理所当然。例如，无数美国黑人学生在学校里因为把头发扎成辫子而受到纪律处分——当你的头发超过3B卷的时候，这种发型就有保护作用了(关于保护性发型的神话和技巧!);而白人名人曾因在不需要保护头发干燥或损伤的情况下保持相同的发型而被誉为时尚潮流。
From my experience as a US-American, people are often bullied or marginalized for things that are too far outside the usual “White Anglo-Saxon Protestant” culture. This especially extends to things like beauty/hygiene and food.
So Americans who grew up being bullied for their cultural staples feel rightly shafted when white Americans start copying those staples and popularizing them into trends. For example, countless Black American students have received disciplinary actions in school for wearing their hair in cornrows—a style that is protective when your hair surpasses a 3B curl pattern(Myths and Tips about Protective Styles!); while white celebrities used to be celebrated as hip and trendy for wearing the same hairstyle when they do not need it to protect their hair from dryness or damage.
从我作为一个美国人的经验来看，人们经常因为一些与通常的“白人盎格鲁-撒克逊新教”文化相距甚远的事情而受到欺凌或边缘化。这一点尤其适用于美容/卫生和食品。
因此，当美国白人开始复制这些主要文化并将其推广为趋势时，那些在文化上被欺负的美国人感到理所当然。例如，无数美国黑人学生在学校里因为把头发扎成辫子而受到纪律处分——当你的头发超过3B卷的时候，这种发型就有保护作用了(关于保护性发型的神话和技巧!);而白人名人曾因在不需要保护头发干燥或损伤的情况下保持相同的发型而被誉为时尚潮流。
Michelle Brouellette
Thank you, I keep trying to explain to people that cultural appropriation is rarely something an individual is guilty of but is rather a corporate or cultural phenomenon.
I also often include that not only is the thief benefiting from someone else but that the owner is often punished for their property. (White chef makes ethnic food #trendy person of that ethnicity makes food “eww stinky learn to eat like normal people ”)
谢谢，我一直在努力向人们解释，文化挪用很少是个人的过错，而是一种企业或文化现象。
我还经常提到，不仅小偷从别人那里受益，而且主人经常因为他们的所有物而受到惩罚。(白人厨师制作少数民族食物#该种族的潮流人士制作食物“臭极了，学着像正常人一样吃饭”)
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Thank you, I keep trying to explain to people that cultural appropriation is rarely something an individual is guilty of but is rather a corporate or cultural phenomenon.
I also often include that not only is the thief benefiting from someone else but that the owner is often punished for their property. (White chef makes ethnic food #trendy person of that ethnicity makes food “eww stinky learn to eat like normal people ”)
谢谢，我一直在努力向人们解释，文化挪用很少是个人的过错，而是一种企业或文化现象。
我还经常提到，不仅小偷从别人那里受益，而且主人经常因为他们的所有物而受到惩罚。(白人厨师制作少数民族食物#该种族的潮流人士制作食物“臭极了，学着像正常人一样吃饭”)
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Ben Agaran to Michelle Brouellette
Pizzas should only be made by Italians! No other race should be allowed to make them! Or are Italians not ethnic enough?
披萨应该只由意大利人制作!不应该允许其他种族制造它们!还是意大利人不够强调民族性?
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Pizzas should only be made by Italians! No other race should be allowed to make them! Or are Italians not ethnic enough?
披萨应该只由意大利人制作!不应该允许其他种族制造它们!还是意大利人不够强调民族性?
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
William Tait MacDonald to Ben Agaran
Firstly, there is no race. It has been proven again and again. There is culture, but culture isn’t some stone slab somewhere that never changes.
Secondly, pizza (as most people imagine it) is very recent. Tomatoes only came to Italy from South America in the 1500’s, and were largely treated as ornamental plants (the fruit are quite pretty) until about 1700 (the first reference to tomato sauce is in a recipe book from 1692… and the author notes that the recipe is Spanish). Evidence suggests that it wasn’t widely consumed until the 1800’s (there was a common perception before this time that it was dangerous).
The idea of putting tomato sauce on bread, then covering it with cheese and baking it? Who knows. It may well be Spanish, or South American, or even Chinese. The word Ketchup possibly comes from the Chinese word "keh jap" which was a traditional tomato sauce from China (although the recipe is very different from ketchup today!) However it does highlight that tomato sauce was around in China, and they had both bread and cheese.
What I’m illustrating here is that food is really, really difficult to track down definitively and say, “Ah, this belongs to this culture!”. Even sushi (commonly thought of as Japanese) is very similar to many dishes around the world.
首先，没有民族特有的。这已经被一次又一次地证明了。文化是存在的，但文化不是某个地方永远不变的石板。
其次，披萨(就像大多数人想象的那样)是最近才出现的。西红柿在15世纪才从南美传入意大利，直到1700年左右才被当作观赏植物(西红柿的果实相当漂亮)(第一次提到番茄酱是在1692年的一本食谱中，作者指出食谱是西班牙语的)。有证据表明，直到19世纪它才被广泛消费(在此之前，人们普遍认为它是危险的)。
把番茄酱涂在面包上，然后涂上奶酪，然后烘烤?谁知道呢。它很可能是西班牙语，或南美语，甚至是汉语。番茄酱这个词可能来自中文“keh jap”（茄汁），这是一种来自中国的传统番茄酱(尽管配方与今天的番茄酱非常不同!)然而，它确实强调了番茄酱在中国是存在的，他们有面包和奶酪。
我在这里要说明的是，食物真的很难明确地追踪，然后说，“啊，这属于这种文化!”即使是寿司(通常被认为是日本菜)也与世界各地的许多菜肴非常相似。
Firstly, there is no race. It has been proven again and again. There is culture, but culture isn’t some stone slab somewhere that never changes.
Secondly, pizza (as most people imagine it) is very recent. Tomatoes only came to Italy from South America in the 1500’s, and were largely treated as ornamental plants (the fruit are quite pretty) until about 1700 (the first reference to tomato sauce is in a recipe book from 1692… and the author notes that the recipe is Spanish). Evidence suggests that it wasn’t widely consumed until the 1800’s (there was a common perception before this time that it was dangerous).
The idea of putting tomato sauce on bread, then covering it with cheese and baking it? Who knows. It may well be Spanish, or South American, or even Chinese. The word Ketchup possibly comes from the Chinese word "keh jap" which was a traditional tomato sauce from China (although the recipe is very different from ketchup today!) However it does highlight that tomato sauce was around in China, and they had both bread and cheese.
What I’m illustrating here is that food is really, really difficult to track down definitively and say, “Ah, this belongs to this culture!”. Even sushi (commonly thought of as Japanese) is very similar to many dishes around the world.
首先，没有民族特有的。这已经被一次又一次地证明了。文化是存在的，但文化不是某个地方永远不变的石板。
其次，披萨(就像大多数人想象的那样)是最近才出现的。西红柿在15世纪才从南美传入意大利，直到1700年左右才被当作观赏植物(西红柿的果实相当漂亮)(第一次提到番茄酱是在1692年的一本食谱中，作者指出食谱是西班牙语的)。有证据表明，直到19世纪它才被广泛消费(在此之前，人们普遍认为它是危险的)。
把番茄酱涂在面包上，然后涂上奶酪，然后烘烤?谁知道呢。它很可能是西班牙语，或南美语，甚至是汉语。番茄酱这个词可能来自中文“keh jap”（茄汁），这是一种来自中国的传统番茄酱(尽管配方与今天的番茄酱非常不同!)然而，它确实强调了番茄酱在中国是存在的，他们有面包和奶酪。
我在这里要说明的是，食物真的很难明确地追踪，然后说，“啊，这属于这种文化!”即使是寿司(通常被认为是日本菜)也与世界各地的许多菜肴非常相似。
Ben James to Michelle Brouellette
“White chef makes ethnic food #trendy person of that ethnicity makes food “eww stinky learn to eat like normal people”
That literally doesn’t happen. Foreign ethnic food is extremely popular in white countries.
“白人厨师制作少数民族食物#该种族的潮流人士制作食物”“臭极了，学着像正常人一样吃饭”
这是不可能发生的。外国民族食品在白人国家非常受欢迎。
“White chef makes ethnic food #trendy person of that ethnicity makes food “eww stinky learn to eat like normal people”
That literally doesn’t happen. Foreign ethnic food is extremely popular in white countries.
“白人厨师制作少数民族食物#该种族的潮流人士制作食物”“臭极了，学着像正常人一样吃饭”
这是不可能发生的。外国民族食品在白人国家非常受欢迎。
Michelle Brouellette to Ben James
I can point out numerous celebrity chefs that make various Asian dishes and at the same time I once heard a developer try to argue for using eminent domain to remove the local Chinese restaurant because nobody would buy his condos if they were next to a Chinese restaurant.
我可以指出有许多制作各种亚洲菜肴的名厨，但与此同时，我曾听到一位开发商试图主张使用土地征用权来拆除当地的中餐馆，因为如果他的公寓旁边有中餐馆，就没有人会买。
I can point out numerous celebrity chefs that make various Asian dishes and at the same time I once heard a developer try to argue for using eminent domain to remove the local Chinese restaurant because nobody would buy his condos if they were next to a Chinese restaurant.
我可以指出有许多制作各种亚洲菜肴的名厨，但与此同时，我曾听到一位开发商试图主张使用土地征用权来拆除当地的中餐馆，因为如果他的公寓旁边有中餐馆，就没有人会买。
Ben James to Michelle Brouellette
There are high-end Chinese restaurants and low-end, I’m guessing your real estate developer was concerned about the latter not the former. But nah its all about racism right?
中国餐馆有高档的，也有低档的，我猜你的房地产开发商关心的是后者而不是前者。 但是，不，这完全是关于种族主义的，对吗？
There are high-end Chinese restaurants and low-end, I’m guessing your real estate developer was concerned about the latter not the former. But nah its all about racism right?
中国餐馆有高档的，也有低档的，我猜你的房地产开发商关心的是后者而不是前者。 但是，不，这完全是关于种族主义的，对吗？
Nicole Grant to Ben James
The concept is what has been happening to black people for centuries. Black women wearing braids, cornrows or afros get discriminated against. White people doing it is #trendy. Black people having big lips, hips and butts are over sexualized, white women pay exorbitant amounts of money for the same look and are praised and lauded.
Ethnic food is only trendy when gentrified white people can brag about having Ethiopian food for dinner last night and sushi today. Ask those same Ethiopian and Japanese kids what taking their food to school for lunch was like growing up. I'm sure you would get a much less welcoming response.
这个概念是几个世纪以来发生在黑人身上的事情。扎麻花辫、辫子或非洲式发型的黑人女性会受到歧视。白人这么做很时髦。拥有大嘴唇、大屁股和大屁股的黑人被称为过度性感化，白人女性为同样的外表付出了高昂的代价，却得到了赞扬和赞美。
只有当中产阶级白人可以吹嘘昨晚吃了埃塞俄比亚菜，今天吃了寿司时，民族食品才是时尚的。问问这些埃塞俄比亚和日本的孩子，带着他们的食物去学校吃午餐是什么感觉。我敢肯定你会得到一个更不欢迎的回应。
The concept is what has been happening to black people for centuries. Black women wearing braids, cornrows or afros get discriminated against. White people doing it is #trendy. Black people having big lips, hips and butts are over sexualized, white women pay exorbitant amounts of money for the same look and are praised and lauded.
Ethnic food is only trendy when gentrified white people can brag about having Ethiopian food for dinner last night and sushi today. Ask those same Ethiopian and Japanese kids what taking their food to school for lunch was like growing up. I'm sure you would get a much less welcoming response.
这个概念是几个世纪以来发生在黑人身上的事情。扎麻花辫、辫子或非洲式发型的黑人女性会受到歧视。白人这么做很时髦。拥有大嘴唇、大屁股和大屁股的黑人被称为过度性感化，白人女性为同样的外表付出了高昂的代价，却得到了赞扬和赞美。
只有当中产阶级白人可以吹嘘昨晚吃了埃塞俄比亚菜，今天吃了寿司时，民族食品才是时尚的。问问这些埃塞俄比亚和日本的孩子，带着他们的食物去学校吃午餐是什么感觉。我敢肯定你会得到一个更不欢迎的回应。
J Williams
Cultural appropriation confuses me because back in my day it would have been regarded as “cultural appreciation" and viewed as a way to bring people closer together!
It also amused me that as a westerners I am not allowed to complain when someone appropriates my culture because by the accident of place of birth, I am an oppressor and therefore appropriating my culture is simply evening things up, it's permissable.
文化挪用让我感到困惑，因为在我那个年代，它会被视为“文化欣赏”，被视为一种拉近人们距离的方式!
作为一个西方人，当有人盗用我的文化时，我不被允许抱怨，这也让我觉得很有趣，因为由于出生地的巧合，我是一个压迫者，因此挪用我的文化只是一件补偿的事情，这是允许的。
Cultural appropriation confuses me because back in my day it would have been regarded as “cultural appreciation" and viewed as a way to bring people closer together!
It also amused me that as a westerners I am not allowed to complain when someone appropriates my culture because by the accident of place of birth, I am an oppressor and therefore appropriating my culture is simply evening things up, it's permissable.
文化挪用让我感到困惑，因为在我那个年代，它会被视为“文化欣赏”，被视为一种拉近人们距离的方式!
作为一个西方人，当有人盗用我的文化时，我不被允许抱怨，这也让我觉得很有趣，因为由于出生地的巧合，我是一个压迫者，因此挪用我的文化只是一件补偿的事情，这是允许的。
William Tait MacDonald to J Williams
There’s a lovely skit by (if I recall correctly) Russell Peters, where he talks about how the English spent all of the colonial era going around the world exporting their values, ideals, culture, and bullets… yes, lots of bullets. And to be fair they were paid pretty well for it in diamonds, rubies, emeralds, gold, cultural treasures, and so forth.
So honestly it is somewhat disingenuous when I hear Brits complaining about how everyone is copying “their culture”. I do a double-take and ask, “Seriously? I mean you went to their country, shot people for not speaking English, insisted they dress like ‘civilised people’, shut down their traditional schools and insisted they learn things ‘your way’, and now you’re acting all surprised when they dress like you, speak like you, and think like you? No mate, go learn some history.”
罗素·彼得斯有一个可爱的小品(如果我没记错的话)，他说英国人在整个殖民时代是如何在世界各地输出他们的价值观、理想、文化和子弹……是的，很多子弹。公平地说，他们为此得到了丰厚的报酬，有钻石、红宝石、祖母绿、黄金、文化宝藏等等。
所以说实话，当我听到英国人抱怨每个人都在抄袭“他们的文化”时，有点虚伪。我又看了一眼，问道:“真的吗?我的意思是你去他们的国家，枪杀不会说英语的人，坚持他们穿得像“文明人”，关闭他们的传统学校，坚持他们以“你的方式”学习，现在他们像你一样穿着，像你一样说话，像你一样思考，你表现得很惊讶?不，伙计，去学点历史吧。”
There’s a lovely skit by (if I recall correctly) Russell Peters, where he talks about how the English spent all of the colonial era going around the world exporting their values, ideals, culture, and bullets… yes, lots of bullets. And to be fair they were paid pretty well for it in diamonds, rubies, emeralds, gold, cultural treasures, and so forth.
So honestly it is somewhat disingenuous when I hear Brits complaining about how everyone is copying “their culture”. I do a double-take and ask, “Seriously? I mean you went to their country, shot people for not speaking English, insisted they dress like ‘civilised people’, shut down their traditional schools and insisted they learn things ‘your way’, and now you’re acting all surprised when they dress like you, speak like you, and think like you? No mate, go learn some history.”
罗素·彼得斯有一个可爱的小品(如果我没记错的话)，他说英国人在整个殖民时代是如何在世界各地输出他们的价值观、理想、文化和子弹……是的，很多子弹。公平地说，他们为此得到了丰厚的报酬，有钻石、红宝石、祖母绿、黄金、文化宝藏等等。
所以说实话，当我听到英国人抱怨每个人都在抄袭“他们的文化”时，有点虚伪。我又看了一眼，问道:“真的吗?我的意思是你去他们的国家，枪杀不会说英语的人，坚持他们穿得像“文明人”，关闭他们的传统学校，坚持他们以“你的方式”学习，现在他们像你一样穿着，像你一样说话，像你一样思考，你表现得很惊讶?不，伙计，去学点历史吧。”
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