QA问答:越南属于中华文化圈吗?越南人有想过要重新回到中国文化圈吗?
2024-06-11 Aya Shawn 13748
正文翻译
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Aya Shawn
Yes, Vietnam belongs to Chinese civilization, but not to China
This is just like many European countries belong to ancient Greek and Roman civilizations, but this does not mean that they belong to Italy.
No, they do not need to "return"
Vietnam still retains a lot of Chinese civilization traditions to this day. Since they have been in it, why should they "return"?
Why does Vietnam belong to Chinese civilization?


是的,越南属于中华文明,但不属于中国
这就如同欧洲很多国家属于古希腊、罗马文明,但这并不代表它们属于意大利。
不,他们不需要“回到”
越南至今还保留着不少中华文明传统,既然已经是中华文明的一部分,又何必“回到”呢?
越南为什么属于中华文明?

First, you need to understand: What is Chinese civilization?
Chinese civilization originated 5,000 years ago and matured 2,500 years ago. In the past 2,000 years, Chinese civilization has several typical characteristics
A. Confucianism
After the competition of various philosophical thoughts in the early days, Confucianism became the core philosophy of Chinese civilization. It is also the core symbol of whether a country belongs to Chinese civilization in the past 2,000 years.
Among the Southeast Asian countries, Vietnam is the country that believes in Confucianism the most, and currently Vietnam has the largest number of Confucian temples in Southeast Asia.
B. Chinese character circle
Countries that use Chinese characters usually belong to the Chinese cultural circle. For example, countries such as South Korea and Vietnam used Chinese characters and later switched to phonetic characters. But their language expression still belongs to the Chinese character cultural circle.
C. Chinese Buddhism(Mahayana Buddhism)
Buddhism was not invented by the Chinese, but after Buddhism was introduced to China, it merged with Chinese culture to form a unique Chinese Buddhism. It is currently the largest branch of Buddhism in the world and the core of global Buddhism.
The countries that are greatly influenced by Han Buddhism basically belong to the Chinese cultural circle.
Buddhism in Vietnam is mainly influenced by Chinese Buddhism, while most Southeast Asian countries believe in Theravada Buddhism. This is also one of the significant differences between Vietnam and ASEAN countries.

首先,你要明白:什么是中华文明?
中华文明起源于5000年前,成熟于2500年前。在过去的2000年里,中华文明有几个典型的特点
A、儒家思想
经过早期各种哲学思想的竞争,儒家思想成为中华文明的核心哲学,也是两千年来一个国家是否属于中华文明的核心标志。在东南亚国家中,越南是最信奉儒教的国家,目前越南是东南亚拥有孔庙最多的国家。
B.汉字圈
使用汉字的国家,一般都属于中华文化圈,例如韩国、越南等国家,都是使用汉字,后来改用拼音文字,但他们的语言表达方式,仍然属于汉字文化圈。
C.中国佛教(大乘佛教)
佛教并非中国人发明,但佛教传入中国后,与中国文化相融合,形成了独具特色的中国佛教,是目前世界佛教中最大的一个分支,也是全球佛教的核心。
受汉传佛教影响较大的国家,基本上都属于中华文化圈。
越南佛教主要受中国佛教的影响,而东南亚国家大多信奉小乘佛教,这也是越南与东盟国家的显著差异之一。

D. Traditional architecture, tools and clothing
Traditional Chinese architecture is characterized by base, brackets, eaves and columns.
Some specific Chinese tools are used in daily life, such as chopsticks
Traditional clothing is influenced by ancient Chinese style, such as Japanese kimono, Korean hanbok, Vietnamese Ao Dai/Áo tứ thân, etc.
In fact, Vietnam has many items that meet the characteristics of the Chinese cultural circle. Compared with typical Chinese culture, Vietnam is actually very close. Its similarity is even higher than some remote provinces in China, such as xinjiang, Tibet and Inner Mongolia, and higher than South Korea and Japan.

D. 传统建筑、工具和服饰
中国传统建筑的特点是基座、斗拱、屋檐、柱子。
一些特定的中国工具在日常生活中使用,例如筷子
传统服饰受到古代中国风格的影响,例如日本和服、韩国韩服、越南奥黛等。
其实,越南有很多符合中国文化圈特点的东西,跟典型的中国文化相比,越南其实已经很接近了,相似度甚至比中国一些偏远省份,比如新疆、西藏、内蒙古等地还要高,也比韩国、日本要高。

评论翻译
@Margaret Loo
Vietnam can be divided into three regions. The northern region was the most sinized. The central part ( near Da Nang) was mostly Indian in influence within the Champa orbit. Go to the ruins at My Son and you will see many depictions of Shiva. The very south, ie, the Mekong delta is more austroasian in makeup. So, insofar as this topic is concerned, only the northern part of Vietnam should be considered.

越南可以分为三个地区。北部地区受到中国文化影响最大。中部地区(岘港附近)主要受印度文化影响,属于占婆文化圈。去美山遗址可以看到许多湿婆神的雕像。最南部的湄公河三角洲地区则更多地呈现出南亚文化的特点。因此,就此话题而言,只有越南北部地区应被考虑。

@Mc Explorer
But Kinh people are everywhere and take 80+% of the total population of anywhere, no matter where it is in Vietnam. The culture essence of a given region is determined by its people and dermography, not by where it is.
The Cham Kingdom has been destroyed, and now almost all the people there are Kinh people.
Maybe there was a lot of Cham culture there, but it has actually been destroyed by the Kinh people who represent Chinese culture.

但京族人到处都是,占越南总人口的80%以上。一个地区的文化精髓由其人民和人口结构决定,而不是由其地理位置决定。
占婆国已经被消灭了,现在在那里的几乎都是京族人。
也许曾经那里有不少的占婆文化,但是实际已经被代表中国文化的京族所消灭

@Margaret Loo
I understand that Vietnam wants to be an entire country and wants to be politically united. I wish you the best in nation building. However, I am an amateur historian and look at historical developments. Integrating your different cultures will be a challenge and you should look at how well Russia has integrated its extremely diverse population. Again, wishing Vietnam the best in its endeavors.

我理解越南希望成为一个完整的国家,并希望在政治上统一。我祝愿你们国家建设顺利。然而,我是个业余历史学家,关注历史发展。整合你们不同的文化将是一个挑战,你们应该看看俄罗斯是如何很好地整合其极其多样化的人口的。再次祝愿越南在其努力中取得成功。
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@Vimegmor D
Same logic can be applied to northern Chinese and southern Chinese did you think of that?

同样的逻辑也可以应用于中国北方人和南方人,你有没有想到这一点?

@Margaret Loo
Northern China and Southern China have been “integrated” for centuries. This is totally different from trying to unite modern Vietnam.
National integration is a tricky thing which needs lots of skill and some alluring aspect (power being one, being treated well or as an equal is another) for it to succeed. IMHO, the West does not offer a good model for integration. Killing off the native population, like in North America or Australia, is a quick solution but can hardly be considered “integration”. Enslavement isn’t that great a solution either. Bombing and killing off the children and women to ensure there wouldn’t be a next generation to oppose you, as in Gaza, will likely prove to be self defeating in the end. That’s why Russia is probably the best example of successful integration. Stalin was from Georgia, Sergei Shoigu is a Tuvan Turk- and so on.

中国北方和南方已经“整合”了几个世纪。这与试图统一现代越南完全不同。
国家整合是一件需要很多技巧和一些诱人因素(权力是一方面,被公平对待或作为平等对待是另一方面)的复杂事情。依我之见,西方没有提供一个好的整合模式。像在北美或澳大利亚那样杀掉土著人口是一个快速的解决方案,但很难被视为“整合”。奴役也不是一个好的解决方案。在加沙,通过轰炸和杀害儿童和妇女来确保没有下一代反对你,这种方法最终可能被证明是自我毁灭的。这就是为什么俄罗斯可能是成功整合的最好例子。斯大林来自格鲁吉亚,谢尔盖·绍伊古是图瓦土耳其人,等等。

@Vimegmor D
To you they are one, to me they are not the same. BTW. “modern vietnam” where is that term come from?

对你来说它们是一体的,对我来说它们不是同一个。顺便说一句,“现代越南”这个词从何而来?

@Margaret Loo
By “modern Vietnam”, I meant post-colonial Vietnam. If you go to the national history museum in Hanoi you will see a very distinctive attempt to define Vietnam as a nation separate from China, despite the heavy importation of things Chinese: language, dress, system of government, etc. Nations are born, nations decline. IMHO, Vietnam is at an early stage of nationalism.

所谓“现代越南”,我指的是殖民后的越南。如果你去河内的国家历史博物馆,你会看到一个非常明显的尝试,即将越南定义为一个独立于中国的国家,尽管大量引入了中国的东西:语言、服饰、政府制度等。国家诞生,国家衰落。依我之见,越南正处于民族主义的早期阶段。
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@Long Pham
I tell you something you don't know. After the Ming dynasty was raped by the Manchus. The Ming people fled to Southeast Asia. After that, Vietnam added the South. Can you guess where the ming people ran to and what they did? LOL

我告诉你一些你不知道的事情。明朝被满族人侵略后,明朝人逃到了东南亚。之后,越南被加入南方。你能猜到明朝人跑到哪里去做了什么吗?哈哈

@Chủ Nghĩa Đế Chế Hiếu
Vietnam is not Little China. Ok!

越南不是小中国。好吧!

@Quang Tran
Đúng rồi, làm như VN thèm làm tàu nhỏ lắm vậy. Việt Nam là Việt Nam, không là phiên bản của bất kỳ nước nào khác.

对的,好像越南很想成为小中国似的。越南就是越南,不是任何其他国家的版本。

@Yap You Wai
Dear Aya Shawn, well-written! Due to present days’ politics, VN’mese may not wanna admit it but the stuffs on the ground are real

亲爱的 Aya Shawn,写得很好!由于当今的政治,越南人可能不愿意承认,但事实摆在那里

@Quang Tran
Ai mà đi tin mấy ông tàu viết tào lao và bịa đặt để cố gắng tôn vinh tàu chứ, trong khi dân tộc đó bị cai trị gần 1000 năm bởi Mông Cổ, Mãn Châu. Haha.

谁会相信那些中国人写的胡言乱语和捏造的东西,试图美化中国,而那个民族被蒙古和满洲统治了近1000年。哈哈。

@Quang Tran
ông này viết bừa bãi, với mục đích là cố gắng làm người ta nghĩ rằng tàu là “ông nội”, nội chuyện nói áo dài mà ảnh hưởng từ trang phục tàu là thấy tào lao rồi. Văn hóa Việt Nam cao hơn văn hóa hóa, chính vì cao hơn nên không bị đồng hóa vì văn hóa thấp làm sao mà đòi đồng hóa văn hóa cao hơn được.

这个人胡乱写东西,目的是让人们认为中国是“祖先”。说奥黛受中国服饰影响就已经是胡说八道了。越南文化比中国文化高,因为高所以没有被同化,低文化怎么能同化高文化呢?

@Clifford Setyono
No, Vietnam is part of China global supply chain and adopted the Chinese culture.

不,越南是中国全球供应链的一部分,并采用了中国文化。

@Adam Dinh
If the French did not come to Vietnam, Vietnam will be Chinese right now. Vietnamese was written in Chinese characters hundreds of more years than Latin. Communication between the two would be exactly like Cantonese and Mandarin right now. If Cantonese is considered Chinese then so should Vietnamese.

如果法国人没有来越南,越南现在会是中国的一部分。越南语用汉字书写的时间比用拉丁字母书写的时间长了数百年。两者之间的交流现在就会像粤语和普通话一样。如果粤语被认为是中国的,那么越南语也应该被认为是中国的。

@Minh Phương Lê
The “Chinese” alphabet we used was not Chinese, it’s called Nôm

我们使用的“汉字”不是中国的,它叫做喃字。

@Quang Tran
Nói dốt quá, không phân biệt được chữ viết (hán, Nôm, Quốc ngữ) với tiếng nói (tiếng Việt) à m? Vậy mà cũng đi comment nữa. Dùng chữ gì thì chỉ là cách viết của tiếng Việt mà thôi. Đúng là cuồng tàu.

真蠢,连书写系统(汉字、喃字、国语字)和语言(越南语)都分不清?居然还去评论。用什么字只是越南语的书写方式而已。真是崇拜中国。

@Houmpheng
Chinese, Japanese (Yayoi), Koreans, Thais (Tai-Kadai), Taiwan aborigines, Hainan aborigines, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Malaysians, Indonesians and Filipinos are Lao descendants.
China, Hainan Island, Taiwan, Thailand, Korea, Japan, Northeast India, Burma, Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, Singapore and Philippines are founded by Lao descendants.
Lao Sze Chuan, Nanping Lao, Lao Yunnan, Lao Shanghai, Lao Beijing, CoLao, Mulao, Gelao, Gelong, Dong, Kam, Sui, Bouyei, Maonan, Tay, Nung, Rau, Zhuang, Hlai, Daic, Dai, Tai, Tai Ahom, Tai Khamti, Tai Dam, Thai, Kra-Dai, Tai-Kadai, Taishanese, Hakka, Tanka, Yue, Baiyue, Yayoi people are Lao descendants.
Liangzhu culture genetic DNA is lixed to ancient/modern-day Yangtze River basin wet rice farmers, Koreans, Yayoi, Austroasiatic, Austronesian and Tai-Kadai populations.
Modern humans of East/Southeast Asian populations originated from the mainland southeast Asia (Laos) according to consensus around the World.
To answer your question the answer is No.

中国人、日本人(弥生人)、韩国人、泰国人(台-卡岱族)、台湾原住民、海南原住民、越南人、柬埔寨人、马来西亚人、印度尼西亚人和菲律宾人是老挝的后裔。
中国、海南岛、台湾、泰国、韩国、日本、印度东北部、缅甸、越南、柬埔寨、马来西亚、印度尼西亚、文莱、新加坡和菲律宾是由老挝后裔建立的。
老四川、南平老、云南老、上海老、北京老、仡佬、仡龙、侗、侗、布依、毛南、侗、农、尧、壮、黎、岱、傣、泰阿洪、泰坎提、泰黛、泰国、卡岱、台-卡岱、台山、客家、疍家、粤、百越、弥生人是老挝的后裔。
良渚文化的遗传基因与古代/现代长江流域的水稻农民、韩国人、弥生人、南亚、南岛和台-卡岱人群有关。
根据全球共识,现代东/东南亚人类起源于东南亚大陆(老挝)。
回答你的问题,答案是否定的。

@NhungTrant
It's possible that the author confused the terms "belong to" and "belong with." 'Belong to' may have been used in the author's question, but 'belong with' makes more sense in your answer.
- "Belong to" typically implies a sense of ownership, possession, or affiliation.
- "Belong with" typically implies a sense of association, harmony, or compatibility.
The author uses religion to support their argument by drawing comparisons between the effects of Buddhism in Vietnam and other Southeast Asian nations. This approach is fundamentally flawed since it suggests a lack of knowledge about Buddhism, which the author doesn't understand about Buddhism in Vietnam at all. It demonstrates a lack of subject-matter expertise. Authors should exercise caution when responding to inquiries on politics, history, and other weighty subjects, especially if they are researchers in their field. Rather than only offering cursory information or depending on restricted expertise, they ought to strive to communicate their knowledge in a professional and precise manner.

作者可能混淆了“belong to”和“belong with”这两个词。“Belong to”可能被用于作者的问题中,但在你的回答中,“belong with”更有意义。
- “Belong to”通常意味着所有权、归属或附属关系。
- “Belong with”通常意味着关联、和谐或兼容性。
作者通过比较佛教在越南和其他东南亚国家的影响来支持他们的论点。这种方法有根本性的缺陷,因为它表明作者对佛教缺乏了解,尤其是对越南的佛教完全不了解。这显示了对主题缺乏专业知识。作者在回答关于政治、历史等重要话题的问题时应该谨慎,尤其是当他们是该领域的研究者时。不要只提供肤浅的信息或依赖有限的知识,而应该努力以专业和准确的方式传达他们的知识。

@Tim Tran
A lot of overseas Vietnamese don't like Vietnam either. Most Vietnamese who went to the West can no longer speak Vietnamese after 1 generation. Most Kinh ethnic in China can no longer speak Vietnamese.
Some nationalists actually say that Vietnamese culture is superior to Chinese culture, but they don’t know that the whole world is laughing at this idea

许多海外越南人也不喜欢越南。大多数去西方的越南人一代后就不会说越南语了。大多数在中国的京族人也不会说越南语。
一些民族主义者居然说越南文化比中国高级,却不知道全世界都在耻笑这种想法

@Ngọc Phạm
Họ chỉ không thích chính trị Việt Nam thôi. Hãy xem năm 2014 khi đàn lợn đưa giàn khoan vào biển Việt Nam, người Việt trên toàn thế giới đã làm gì?

他们只是讨厌越南的政治。看看2014年,当中国在越南海域安装钻井平台时,全世界的越南人都做了什么?

@Jay Yi
I never claim Monkey culture as Chinese.

我从未声称猴文化是中国的。

@Toan Le
Well wearing pigtail and worshiping Monkey gods are certainly features of Chinese culture.

好吧,留辫子和崇拜猴神肯定是中国文化的特征。
原创翻译:龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处


@Jay Yi
1000 years of colonisation of Vietnam, Chinese definitely copulated some local women, DNA shows an average Kinh carries 33% Yellow river DNA.

1000年的越南殖民史,中国人肯定与一些当地女性结合,DNA显示平均京族携带33%的黄河流域DNA。
原创翻译:龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处


@Quang Tran
~1000 years of colonisation of Chinese, Mongolia, Manchuria definitely copulated some local women, DNA shows an average han carries 66% Mongolian, Manchuria DNA.

大约1000年的中国殖民史,蒙古和满洲肯定与一些当地女性结合,DNA显示平均汉族携带66%的蒙古和满洲DNA。

@Iseetropt
Ah but Manchurians are Chinese. And so are most ethnic Mongolians, since there are more ethnic Mongolians in China today than anywhere else including, ironically Mongolia.
Who cares if they’re Han or not. China is a multi-ethnic country. They’re all Chinese.
But Vietnamese cannot claim that Chinese are Vietnamese or there are more Chinese in Vietnam, so even if you’re desperate for something to throw back, what you say doesn’t have the same impact.
Anyway 66% seems too far off. Doesn’t seem logical. Seems like having a tantrum and just grabbing on to whatever.

啊,但是满族人是中国人。大多数蒙古族也是,因为今天中国的蒙古族比其他地方(包括蒙古国),人数更多。
谁在乎他们是不是汉族。中国是一个多民族国家,他们都是中国人。
但越南人不能声称中国人是越南人或越南有更多的中国人,所以即使你拼命想反击,你说的话也没有同样的影响。
无论如何,66%看起来太离谱了。不合逻辑。看起来像是在发脾气,随便抓住什么就说什么。

@username
good


@Ngọc Phạm
Bạn đang khóc khi nói về nó

你在谈论它的时候哭了吗?

@Quang Tran
I never claim Pig culture as Vietnamese.

我从未声称猪文化是越南文化。
原创翻译:龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处


@Thanh Bui
Stupid and ignorant.

愚蠢且无知。
原创翻译:龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处


@Clifford Setyono
Yes Vietnamese culture doesn't belong to China, but it doesn't mean it's not Chinese. China couldn't care less what Vietnamese feel about China. The reality speaks otherwise. Let that sink in.

是的,越南文化不属于中国,但这并不意味着它不是中国文化圈的。中国不在乎越南人对中国的感受。现实说明了一切。让它沉淀下来吧。

@Toan Le
Vietnamese culture is not Chinese. See? I said it. Let reality sink in for you.

越南文化不是中国的。看到了吗?我说了。让现实为你沉淀吧。

@Quang Tran
VN bị xâm lược 1000 năm thì văn hóa tàu ảnh hưởng văn hóa đến Việt Nam là bình thường. Nhưng quan trọng là Việt Nam không bị đồng hóa giống như những dân tộc khác.

越南被侵略了1000年,所以中国文化影响越南文化是正常的。但重要的是,越南没有像其他民族那样被同化。

@Yap You Wai
Good stuff! Generally, most of them are often smart fellas, but then a high no. are also “cung dau”? Emitofu!

好东西!一般来说,他们中的大多数都是聪明人,但也有很多是“宫斗”?阿弥陀佛!

@Felix Su
Why would Vietnam want to return to anyone other then themselves?

为什么越南会想回归到除了自己之外的任何人呢?

@AlexAnNA
At least as a European, it is hard for me to tell the difference between Vietnam and China. The historical buildings and some old towns look almost the same.

至少作为一个欧洲人,我很难分辨越南和中国的区别。历史建筑和一些古老的镇子看起来都几乎一样

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