为什么哥伦布被认为是意大利人,而他很可能是加泰罗尼亚人(和犹太人),并且从未用意大利语写过或说过意大利语?
2024-10-18 大号儿童 4091
正文翻译




原创翻译:龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处


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Emilio Garavaglia
The answer is in the exact article you lixed:

答案就在你提供的那篇文章中:

-It is generally agreed upon by historians that Columbus' family was from the coastal region of Liguria, that he spent his boyhood and early youth in the Republic of Genoa, in Genoa, in Vico Diritto, and that he subsequently lived in Savona, where his father Domenico moved in 1470. Much of this evidence derives from data concerning Columbus' immediate family connections in Genoa and opinions voiced by contemporaries concerning his Genoese origins

历史学家普遍认为,哥伦布的家庭来自利古里亚沿海地区,他的少年时期和早年生活在热那亚共和国的热那亚市,在维科·迪里托(Vico Diritto)度过,随后他搬到萨沃纳,那时他的父亲多梅尼科于1470年迁居在那里。这些证据大多来自关于哥伦布直系亲属在热那亚的关系以及同时代人对他热那亚出身的看法。

Not to mention that part of the actual Catalonia (Barcellona area in particular) as the actual France “Cote Azure” at his own ages where part of Genoa’s protectorate, so it was perfectly normal to have people moving up and down the south continental coast. Especially if they where sailors

更不用说,实际上加泰罗尼亚(特别是巴塞罗那地区)和当时的法国“蔚蓝海岸”在他那个年代都是热那亚的保护领土,因此沿着南欧大陆沿海移动的人是完全正常的,尤其是如果他们是水手的话。

About the language, it’s perfectly normal he did not speak Italian, since there was no Italian language to speak at those ages (Italy was founded in 1861)

关于语言,他不讲意大利语是完全正常的,因为在那个时代并不存在意大利语(意大利于1861年成立)。

And even today, The Liguirian local language is much more similar to Portugase and Catalan than it is from italian. (If you listen certain strict Genovese speech keeping you eyes closed … you can feel like in Brazil!)

甚至今天,利古里亚地方语言与葡萄牙语和加泰罗尼亚语的相似性远超过意大利语。(如果你闭上眼睛听某些特定的热那亚方言,你会感觉像在巴西!)

Alessandro Caredda
The concept of “Italy”, and “Italian”, as a language, existed well before the foundation of the Kindom of Italy in 1861. Nevertheless it’s true that Italian has been mainly used for centuries as a written language, and spoken local languages in what is now Italy where (and still are) often very different from Italian.

“意大利”和“意大利语”作为一种语言的概念早在1861年意大利王国成立之前就已存在。然而,意大利语在几个世纪以来主要作为书面语言使用,而如今意大利境内的地方口语(和现在的情况一样)常常与意大利语非常不同。

Emilio Garavaglia
The “italian” of 1400 has very few to do with modern Italian and was far from being standardized. The “written language” of Vernice and the “written language” of Tuscany where not the same anyhow. And Even Dante’s Italian sounds like a foreign language today. (unless until “fiere” means “exhibitions” and not “wild animals”…), I understand there is a certain rhetoric beside the humanistic communities (especially if educated in the Gentilian school) to “sell” the idea of a “unified italy” since the fall of Rome, up the unification. But that was far to be a real thing:

1400年的“意大利语”与现代意大利语关系不大,且远未实现标准化。威尼斯的“书面语言”和托斯卡纳的“书面语言”根本不是同一种语言。而且,即使是但丁的意大利语今天听起来也像是一种外语。(除非“fiere”是指“展览”,而不是“野生动物”……)我理解在人文主义社群中(尤其是受过詹蒂利安学派教育的人)有某种修辞来“推销”自罗马灭亡以来一直存在的“统一意大利”的理念,直到统一的实现。但这远未成为现实:

Alessandro Caredda
That's true, but I was just writing about the “concept” of Italy and Italian language, both predating 1861.

这是真的,但我只是想说“意大利”和意大利语言的“概念”,这两者都早于1861年。

Paul Paracchini
When Dante in the 1300’s was getting ready to write his masterpiece, “The Divine Comedy” educated Tuscans communicated in Latin, the local, “vulgar” language of the common folk or Provençal a “langue d’oc” vernacular related to Catalan, Provençal was the “lingua franca” of diplomacy and commerce for all who lived between the “Spanish Mark” (Catalonia) and throughout what today is the south of France, all the way into Italy (notably Liguria and the Piedmont) down along the Italian coast into Tuscany. In the end, Dante opted to write his “Divina Commedia” in the Tuscan vernacular, which became the benchmark for modern “Italian”.

在14世纪,当但丁准备写他的杰作《神曲》时,受过教育的托斯卡纳人使用拉丁语交流,地方上普通民众的“俗语”或普罗旺斯语是一种与加泰罗尼亚语相关的“oc语言”,普罗旺斯语是生活在“西班牙边界”(加泰罗尼亚)到现在法国南部,直到意大利(特别是利古里亚和皮埃蒙特)沿着意大利海岸到托斯卡纳地区的所有人之间的外交和商业“通用语”。最终,但丁选择用托斯卡纳方言写他的《神曲》,这成为现代“意大利语”的基准。

When France began to unite and French developed into the “national” language there was much rivalry between the langue d’ceil of the North vs. the langue d’oc of the South. Over time, the langue d’ceil of the North won out because it was the language spoken by the rulers of the “Ile de France” which in the end united all of the French-speaking territories.

当法国开始统一,法语发展为“国家”语言时,北方的“oc语言”和南方的“oc语言”之间存在很大的竞争。随着时间的推移,北方的“oc语言”胜出,因为它是“法兰西岛”统治者所使用的语言,最终统一了所有讲法语的领土。

But had Dante’s Divine Comedy been written in Provençal, a language spoken by millions along the Mediterranean Coast from the Spanish Mark across France and into Italy it might have become the Beowulf of a much larger community, in time uniting more than just the Catalans or the Tuscans, laying the foundations for a much larger unx of “latin-speaking” peoples. A fascinating thought!

但是,如果但丁的《神曲》是用普罗旺斯语写成的,这种语言在从西班牙边界穿过法国到意大利的地中海沿岸有数百万人使用,那么它可能会成为一个更大社区的《贝奥武夫》,随着时间的推移,不仅将加泰罗尼亚人或托斯卡纳人团结在一起,还为更大规模的“拉丁语系”民族的联合奠定基础。这真是一个引人入胜的想法!

Peter de Loriol
Added to which his name was Cristoforo Colombo, not Columbus. One of his descendants was at my school - and his name was Cristofo Colombo, a spaniard, although his ancestor was from Liguria.

再者,他的名字是克里斯托弗·哥伦布,而不是哥伦布。他的一个后代曾在我的学校上学——他的名字是克里斯托福·哥伦布,是个西班牙人,尽管他的祖先来自利古里亚。

Emilio Garavaglia
Columbus is nothing more than how his surname is translated to English… Spanish -by the way- use to call him “Cristobal Colon”

哥伦布不过是他的姓氏翻译成英语的方式……顺便说一下,西班牙人通常称他为“克里斯托瓦尔·科隆”。

Peter de Loriol
Maybe that WAS the case. But this Spaniard who was at my school, was a great friend of another Spaniard at my school, a certain Francisco Franco, nephew of the caudillo.

也许事实就是如此。但是这个在我学校的西班牙人,是我学校另一个西班牙人的好朋友,一个叫弗朗西斯科·佛朗哥的人,是考迪罗的侄子。

Assistant
The identity of Christopher Columbus has been a topic of debate among historians, particularly regarding his nationality and background. Here are some key points to consider:

克里斯托弗·哥伦布的身份一直是历史学家争论的话题,特别是关于他的国籍和背景。以下是一些关键点:

Birthplace and National Identity: Columbus was born in Genoa, which is in modern-day Italy. During his lifetime, the political landscape of Italy was fragmented into various city-states, and national identities were not as clearly defined as they are today. Thus, he is often referred to as Italian because of his birthplace.

出生地和国籍认同:哥伦布出生于热那亚,位于现代意大利境内。在他生活的时代,意大利的政治格局分散为多个城市国家,国籍认同并不像今天那么明确。因此,他通常被称为意大利人,因为他的出生地。

Cultural Influences: While Columbus's family may have had Catalan connections, and some theories suggest he could have had Jewish ancestry, there is no definitive evidence to confirm these claims. His writings show influences from various cultures, but the predominant language he used for his official correspondence was Spanish, reflecting his long-term service to the Spanish crown.

文化影响:虽然哥伦布的家族可能与加泰罗尼亚有联系,还有一些理论认为他可能有犹太血统,但没有确凿的证据来证实这些说法。他的著作显示出多种文化的影响,但他在官方信件中使用的主要语言是西班牙语,这反映了他长期为西班牙王室服务的事实。

Language: Columbus wrote primarily in Spanish, and there is little evidence that he spoke Italian fluently. His documents and letters are mostly in Spanish, which he used during his voyages and interactions with the Spanish monarchy.

语言:哥伦布主要用西班牙语写作,几乎没有证据表明他流利地讲意大利语。他的文件和信件大多是用西班牙语写成的,这是他在航行和与西班牙王室互动时所使用的语言。
原创翻译:龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处


Historical Context: The narrative of Columbus as an Italian explorer was solidified in the 19th century when national identities became more pronounced. His voyages were significant in the context of Spanish exploration and colonization, leading to his association with Spain more than with Italy or any other region.

历史背景:在19世纪,当民族身份变得更加明显时,哥伦布作为意大利探险家的叙述得到了巩固。他的航行在西班牙的探索和殖民背景中具有重要意义,因此他与西班牙的关联远超过与意大利或其他地区的关联。

Legacy and Mythology: Over time, Columbus has become a symbol of exploration and discovery, often overshadowing the complexities of his identity. The focus has shifted more towards his achievements and their consequences rather than his personal background.
In summary, Columbus is considered Italian primarily due to his birthplace in Genoa and the historical context surrounding his life. The theories about his Catalan or Jewish heritage remain speculative and have not been conclusively proven.

遗产和神话:随着时间的推移,哥伦布已成为探索和发现的象征,这往往掩盖了他身份的复杂性。人们的关注点更多地转向了他的成就及其后果,而不是他的个人背景。
总之,哥伦布之所以被认为是意大利人,主要是因为他出生于热那亚以及围绕他生活的历史背景。关于他加泰罗尼亚或犹太血统的理论仍然是推测性的,尚未得到确凿证明。

Eorl Renato Sven
did you even read the lixed wiki page?
there are many hypoteses: that he was Catalan, Jewish, Greek, Portuguese, Polish, or from Sardinia, Corsica, Norway, Scotland.. or from another planet!!!
but the conclusion is that he was almost certainly from Genoa.
look at the “The testimony of the ambassadors” as well as “Support for the Genoese origin from contemporary European writers” paragraphs!

你有认真阅读链接的维基页面吗?
有很多假设:他可能是加泰罗尼亚人、犹太人、希腊人、葡萄牙人、波兰人,或者来自撒丁岛、科西嘉岛、挪威、苏格兰……甚至可能来自其他星球!!!
但结论是他几乎可以肯定来自热那亚。看看“使节的证词”以及“来自当代欧洲作家的对热那亚起源的支持”这两个段落!

Ryan Privee
I’d heard years ago on the History Channel he was likely Catalan and Jewish. There’s also no need to be rude in your answer, perhaps it is something lost in translation if you’re from Italy…

我几年前在历史频道听说他可能是加泰罗尼亚人和犹太人。你的回答中没有必要这么无礼,也许如果你来自意大利,这在翻译上有所误解……

Marc Monereo Cuscó
I agree and Catalan and Genovese can be related languages but Barcelona and her area NEVER have been part of Genoa.

我同意,加泰罗尼亚语和热那亚语是相关的语言,但巴塞罗那及其周边地区从来没有属于热那亚。

Stanley Maragos
Language is not the main reason to establish nationality. I think the nationality you believe you belong accounts the most . Birth place too . About Italy it’s hard to understand a Sicilian or a person from bari sounds like a different language . I did study Italian ,and visit Italy , in Genova was no problem. As for Colombo I don’t know that much , but I know he had an affair with queen Isabela , ferdinado find out , and he wanted to get ridd mr Chris so he gave him the 4 ships , to keep his wife . I don’t know if was true but was rumor, who knows the true . People moved around Europe as the do today ,I believe he was Italian , his crew I think was Italian as Americo Vespucci , again I can be wrong , the only things I know I’m right is what I see with my own eyes , internet is full of false statements, some from goverments propaganda, or people who quess what happen many years ago .any way America war discovered many years before Colombo , the Indians look like north east Siberians crossing the icy sea to Alaska .

语言并不是确定国籍的主要原因。我认为你认为自己属于哪个国籍才是最重要的。出生地也是如此。在意大利,理解西西里人或来自巴里的人的语言是很困难的。我学习过意大利语,也访问过意大利,在热那亚没有问题。至于哥伦布,我了解得不多,但我知道他与伊莎贝拉女王有染,费迪南德发现后想要摆脱哥伦布,所以给了他四艘船,以便保住他的妻子。我不知道这是否属实,但这是个传闻,谁知道真相。人们在欧洲各地迁移,和今天一样,我相信他是意大利人,他的船员我认为也是意大利人,就像亚美利哥·维斯普奇一样,当然我也可能错了。我唯一知道的是我所看到的,互联网充满了虚假的陈述,有些是来自政府的宣传,或者人们对许多年前发生的事情的猜测。不管怎样,美国在哥伦布之前很多年就已经被发现,印第安人的外貌看起来像从西伯利亚东北部穿越冰海来到阿拉斯加的人。

Rosina L. Wachtel
Some people claim that Columbus was Chinese, or a Muslim descended from the Moors. Why is it so difficult to accept that Columbus was a (very) Christian Italian from Genoa? Sometimes a chair is just a chair.

有些人声称哥伦布是中国人,或者是穆斯林后裔,来自摩尔人。为什么这么难以接受哥伦布是一个(非常)虔诚的意大利人,来自热那亚?有时候椅子就是椅子而已。

Alberto Formenti
Because, as wrote Emilio Garavaglia he was from Liguria, so he was actually Italian

因为,正如埃米利奥·加拉瓦利亚所写,他来自利古里亚,所以他实际上是意大利人。

Kevin Todd Clepps
He and his family did live in Italy though they were almost certainly Sephardi Jews that converted to Roman Catholicism .

他和他的家人确实住在意大利,尽管他们几乎可以肯定是塞法尔迪犹太人,后来改信了罗马天主教。

Vivien Tarkirk-Smith
Columbus was an evil murdering European who had huge numbers of friendly helpful aboriginal people murdered or enslaved. Who wants to claim him?

哥伦布是一个邪恶的欧洲杀人犯,他杀害或奴役了大量友好的、乐于助人的土著人。谁想认领他?

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