中国庞大的回收基础设施和垃圾发电厂，正面临着“垃圾短缺”的困境
正文翻译
评论翻译
VegetableMethod624
When do we start selling our mountains of garbage to them ?
我们什么时候开始把成山的垃圾卖给他们？
u/Sad-Effective-6558
Sad-Effective-6558
America was selling its trash to China for decades. Including most of the plastic we were claiming to recycle. China banned it in 2018 I believe, though maybe it's changed.
美国几十年来一直把垃圾卖到中国，包括我们声称回收的大部分塑料。我记得中国是在2018年禁止的，不过也可能后来有变化。
u/VegetableMethod624
VegetableMethod624
Now that’s interesting! Are there any articles or other media I can access? I’ve been hooked on Chinese/Asian based tech work around for everyday tasks on YouTube and FB and hadn’t ‘heard’ they were buying our trash.
这就有意思了！有没有相关文章或其他资料可以让我看看？我最近一直在油管和脸书上看中国/亚洲的一些日常技术小技巧视频，但没“听说”他们在买我们的垃圾。
u/voidably
voidably
Just google it. It was a big shock to Australia as well
直接谷歌一下吧。这件事对澳大利亚来说也是个很大的冲击。
Brilliant_Tapir
I remember when the new government in Malaysia took over in 2018 and there were containers of mislabeled trash from Canada meant for recycling but being sent here for disposal (probably at a landfill).
我记得2018年马来西亚新政府上台时，有来自加拿大的集装箱垃圾被错误标注为可回收，但实际上被运到这里处理（很可能是填埋）。
Suspicious_Street317
This was decades old news, they banned "garbage" importing due to their own massive consumption yoy.
Trash to electricity is on CCP's national agenda, which is heavily subsidized, im not saying this is a bad thing, but the Government's first priority is not sustainability, is actually AI centers. Sustainability comes second but the tech is very advanced comparing to the rest of the world. They may starting to import garbage again once they run out of their own.
这是几十年前的老新闻了，他们由于自身逐年增长的巨大消费而禁止“垃圾”进口。
垃圾发电是***的国家议程之一，并且有大量补贴，我并不是说这是坏事，但政府的首要优先并不是可持续发展，而是AI中心。可持续发展排在第二，不过相比世界其他地方，这项技术非常先进。一旦他们自己的垃圾用完了，可能会再次开始进口垃圾。
piscator111
These new type garbage processing plants are money makers, they are being exported to the whole world… you gotta stop with this “subsided” BS narrative…
这些新型垃圾处理厂是赚钱的，它们正在被出口到全世界……你得停止这种“补贴”的胡扯说法了……
uncle-iroh-11
Why not simply continue the import if they have a shortage of trash now?
如果他们现在垃圾短缺，为什么不继续进口呢？
zhuinnyc
China banned trash imports in 2018 when they were still struggling with overflowing landfills.
The new waste power plants mostly came online in the last couple of years and the trash shortage only started recently. They may very well resume trash imports once old landfills are used up.
中国在2018年禁止垃圾进口，当时他们还在应对填埋场溢满的问题。
新的垃圾发电厂大多是在过去几年才投入使用，而垃圾短缺是最近才开始的。一旦旧的填埋场被用尽，他们很可能会恢复垃圾进口。
FrankSamples
Why are they importing trash if their landfills were overflowing
如果他们的填埋场都满了，为什么还要进口垃圾？
CryptographerOk6804
They are not. The comment you responded to is saying that when they burn all of their trash they might start importing trash again
他们并没有。你回复的那条评论的意思是，当他们把自己的垃圾都烧完后，可能会再次开始进口垃圾。
u/ansh4916
ansh4916
What are you thinking? Both waste incineration and waste disposal cost money. The profitability of these waste-to-energy plants is the result of government subsidies. If we import waste, it essentially means the Chinese government is using its own funds to subsidize the disposal of other countries' waste.
你在想什么？垃圾焚烧和垃圾处理都是要花钱的。这些垃圾发电厂之所以能盈利，是因为政府补贴。如果我们进口垃圾，本质上意味着中国政府在用自己的资金补贴处理其他国家的垃圾。
Constant_Debate_2848
Although it's called imported waste, the exporter usually pays the waste disposal fee.
虽然叫“进口垃圾”，但通常是出口方支付处理费用。
Suspicious_Street317
Because China's current economy is also sluggish. Government has many stimulus to increase consumer spending, if it works in the long run, the massive population will produce enough garbage for their own use.
因为中国目前的经济也比较疲软。政府有很多刺激措施来增加消费，如果长期有效，庞大的人口会产生足够他们自己使用的垃圾。
u/Awkward-Winner-99
Awkward-Winner-99
I dont think it is economically feasible to buy/sell trash for incineration. It was barely profitable when plastic trash was being recycled
我认为买卖垃圾进行焚烧在经济上不可行。即使在塑料垃圾可以回收利用的时候，这种做法也几乎无利可图。
u/Aggressive_Lie_4446
Aggressive_Lie_4446
Actually most of the West used to do this until some years ago when China banned trash imports.
Now Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia and soon, West Africa are getting the trash.
实际上，大多数西方国家过去一直这么做，直到几年前中国禁止垃圾进口。
现在是印度尼西亚、泰国、马来西亚，以及很快西非地区在接收这些垃圾。
Not_a_real_plebbitor
Why don't you build your own trash incinerator power plants?
为什么你们不自己建垃圾焚烧发电厂？
u/electric-castle
electric-castle
When trash is left in a landfill, it generates methane, which as we all remember is much worse for the climate than CO2. So burning trash in this scenario is a good thing. And much of the carbon in trash is not from fossil fuels, which makes this closer to carbon neutral.
Also, we do not just care about the air, right? Trash ends up in all parts of the environment - rivers, forests, the oceans, in our cities. Reducing trash volume will indirectly reduce pollution across the entire world.
Try to grow some nuance guys.
当垃圾被留在填埋场时，会产生甲烷，而我们都知道甲烷对气候的影响比二氧化碳严重得多。所以在这种情况下焚烧垃圾是件好事。而且垃圾中的很多碳并不是来自化石燃料，这使它更接近碳中和。
另外，我们关心的不只是空气，对吧？垃圾会进入环境的各个部分——河流、森林、海洋、城市。减少垃圾体积会间接减少全球范围的污染。
大家看问题要更细致一点。
DesperateAdvantage76
Modern regulated landfills collect and flare it, which emits CO2 instead of methane.
现代规范化填埋场会收集并燃烧这些气体，从而排放二氧化碳而不是甲烷。
StandardOtherwise302
Energy recoup is still better than flared landfill for much municipal waste.
对于许多城市垃圾来说，能量回收仍然比填埋场直接燃烧更好。
DesperateAdvantage76
I agree, but we shouldn't argue in bad faith as if all landfills are just spewing mass amounts of methane.
我同意，但我们不应该带着恶意争论，好像所有填埋场都在大量排放甲烷一样。
u/Interesting_Pay1220
Interesting_Pay1220
Methane can be collected and burn as fossile fuel. It's all the same. Modern landfills are extremely efficient at capturing it aswell
甲烷可以被收集并作为化石燃料燃烧。其实都一样。现代填埋场在捕获甲烷方面也非常高效。
zweetsam
carbon neutral?????
碳中和？？？？？
Billy3B
You also have to burn fossil fuels to operate the plants, so adding more carbon. The result is easily the 2nd dirtiest form of energy.
你还需要燃烧化石燃料来运行这些工厂，这会增加更多碳排放。结果很容易成为第二脏的能源形式。
WhySoConspirious
Uhhh, burning trash is not 'pure, clean' energy, I don't care what they say.
呃，焚烧垃圾并不是“纯净、清洁”的能源，不管他们怎么说。
NaniFarRoad
Did you watch the video? They have stricter emissions regulations than the EU - the trash is burned in a way that reduces emissions, and they're now digging up old landfill sites as a source of burnable waste.
It is cleaner to burn under controlled conditions than to leave the waste in a landfill, where it seeps mystery chemicals to nearby waterways. Eventually, we won't need as many of these incinerators as we move to a more circular economy, and some of them will have to close down. But this kind of waste management is definitely a good thing.
你看过视频吗？他们的排放标准比欧盟更严格——垃圾以减少排放的方式被焚烧，而且他们现在还在挖掘旧填埋场作为可燃垃圾来源。
在受控条件下焚烧比把垃圾留在填埋场更清洁，因为填埋场会向附近水道渗出各种未知化学物质。最终，随着我们转向更加循环的经济模式，我们不再需要这么多焚烧厂，其中一些将不得不关闭。但这种垃圾管理方式肯定是好事。
u/Rocketeer006
Rocketeer006
Makes sense. Super cool!
有道理。太酷了！
invariantspeed
Also, landfills breed methane.
另外，填埋场会产生甲烷。
Ewy_Kablewy
And worse when we consider the absolute nightmare of garbage juices forming leachate and god knows what mixing with gods knows what else. (All I can say for sure is thank providence for sodium chloride- when there is a plume of leachate the mess typically forces the sodium chloride out first so we can tell something bad is going on.)
更糟的是，当我们考虑垃圾液体形成渗滤液的噩梦，以及天知道什么和什么混在一起。（我唯一能确定的是感谢氯化钠的存在——当出现渗滤液羽流时，这种混乱通常会先把氯化钠挤出来，这样我们就能知道出了问题。）
zweetsam
lol no, stricter than EU my arse. that's CGTN narrative, a state owned media mouthpiece. In India there are several Chinese made WTE/RDF power plants like that and all of them have pollution problems from the chimney. And no, even with circular economy, the RDF plant is still needed and even growing. there are many non recyclable plastics.
Sweden's WTE technology is stricter than that.
笑死，不是，比欧盟更严格？扯吧。这是CGTN的说法，一个国有媒体喉舌。在印度有几个中国制造的垃圾发电/RDF电厂，它们的烟囱都有污染问题。而且不是的，即使有循环经济，RDF电厂仍然是需要的，甚至还在增长，因为有很多不可回收的塑料。
瑞典的垃圾发电技术比那更严格。
Not_a_real_plebbitor
Yeah yeah Chinese people always lie and westerners always speak the truth. Sure thing buddy.
是是是，中国人总是说谎，西方人总是说真话。行吧老兄。
zweetsam
we don't lie, because we verify.
"The report by the Central Pollution Control Board (CPCB), the government's pollution watchdog, submitted to the National Green Tribunal and the Supreme Court in the last week of September, showed dioxins, furans and PM2.5 (particulate matter at 2.5 microns) among chief pollutants being released at levels beyond permissible limits by waste-to-energy plants located in the Okhla, Bawana and Ghazipur areas of Delhi.
Inhaling PM2.5 particles can lead to cardio-vascular diseases, lung cancer, chronic obstructive pulmonary diseases and respiratory disorders. WHO estimates that it causes upwards of four million premature deaths globally each year. Dioxins and furans, generated by incineration at low temperatures, are among the most toxic substances known." （链接）
those plants are using Chinese WTE tech and operated by Indian conglomerates.
我们不撒谎，因为我们会核实。
“中央污染控制委员会——政府的污染监管机构——在9月最后一周提交给国家绿色法庭和最高法院的报告显示，位于德里Okhla、Bawana和Ghazipur地区的垃圾发电厂排放的主要污染物包括二恶英、呋喃和PM2.5（2.5微米颗粒物），其排放水平超过了允许限值。
吸入PM2.5颗粒会导致心血管疾病、肺癌、慢性阻塞性肺病和呼吸系统疾病。世界卫生组织估计，每年全球因此导致超过400万例过早死亡。由低温焚烧产生的二恶英和呋喃是已知最有毒的物质之一。”
这些工厂使用的是中国的垃圾发电技术，由印度大型企业运营。
Not_a_real_plebbitor
“Chinese people are lying because Indians can't run wte plants competently”
Amazing point buddy!
“中国人在撒谎，因为印度人无法胜任地运行垃圾发电厂”
观点真“精彩”，兄弟！
zweetsam
??? do you even read my point? the Chinese are also doing the same thing in China. both are cheap arse people.
again, we don't lie, because we verify
"IPEN (an international network), Arnika Association (Czech Republic) and Insight Explorer (Beijing, China) conducted the survey of free range chicken eggs in the vicinity of several industrial sites in China, which are potential hot spots for persistent toxic chemicals. High levels of very toxic and very persistent dioxins and PCBs were found in samples taken close to waste incinerators and one metallurgical plant, while low levels were found in egg sample from a supermarket in Beijing.
The presence of a very high level of brominated dioxins in eggs collected near a municipal waste incinerator in wuhan shows serious contamination most likely caused by inappropriate handling (burning) of e-waste containing high levels of brominated flame retardants.
The data and analyses of free range chicken eggs were obtained from local people and/or sampled by Chinese NGOs Insight Explorer and Green Beagle during field visits in 2013, 2014, and 2015 from six different industrial localities in China and one sample of eggs from a supermarket in Beijing for comparison. These locations were: Beihai, Guangzhou, wuhan, Qiqihaer, Ziyang, and Shenzhen. Eggs are an important exposure pathway from soil pollution to humans, and eggs from contaminated areas can readily lead to high pollution exposures."（链接）
Oh, that's 12 years ago, they must have changed it. hurrrr.... durrrrr....
“你到底有没有看懂我的观点？中国人在中国也在做同样的事情。两边都是抠门的人。
再说一次，我们不撒谎，因为我们会核实。
IPEN（一个国际网络组织）、Arnika 协会（捷克）以及 Insight Explorer（中国北京）对中国数个工业设施周边的散养鸡鸡蛋进行了调查；这些工业设施所在地被视为潜在的持久性有毒化学品热点区域。在靠近废弃物焚烧炉和一家冶金厂的采样点所采集的样本中，检测出了高浓度的剧毒且极具持久性的二恶英和多氯联苯；而在取自北京某超市的鸡蛋样本中，此类物质的含量则处于较低水平。
在武汉某城市垃圾焚烧厂附近收集的鸡蛋中，检测出极高含量的溴代二恶英，这表明当地存在严重的污染；此类污染极有可能源于对含有高浓度溴代阻燃剂的电子垃圾进行了不当处置（焚烧）。
关于散养鸡蛋的数据与分析，部分源自当地居民的提供，部分则由中国非政府组织（Insight Explorer）和（Green Beagle）在2013、2014及2015年的实地考察期间亲自采样获得；这些样本采集自中国六个不同的工业区，此外还从北京的一家超市采集了一份鸡蛋样本作为对照。具体地点包括：北海、广州、武汉、齐齐哈尔、资阳和深圳。鸡蛋是土壤污染物向人体迁移的重要途径，来自受污染地区的鸡蛋极易导致人体遭受高剂量的污染物暴露。（链接）
噢，那是12年前的事了，他们肯定早就整改了。呵呵……
NaniFarRoad
Is that the same as these plants? I thought these were high temp pyrolysis, which releases almost no PM.
这和这些工厂是一样的吗？我以为这些是高温热解，几乎不释放颗粒物。
zweetsam
lol, no, plasma pyrolysis is expensive, too expensive for them
笑死，不是，等离子热解很贵，对他们来说太贵了。
NaniFarRoad
Don't let perfection get in the way of progress.
不要让完美成为进步的阻碍。
zweetsam
no, I'm just allergic to BS and lies when they emit dioxins to the air more than Dow plant in India
不，我只是对胡扯和谎言过敏，尤其是当它们向空气中排放的二恶英比印度陶氏工厂还多的时候。
u/VegetableMethod624
VegetableMethod624
It can be. Same principle as ‘cleaning’ coal burning electrical plants; not perfect but better than not. I won’t be surprised to learn China has an answer for the air polluting effects . They’re much more advanced in so many tech solutions for clean energy than our “drill baby drill” profits before climate and healthy living conditions industry they paid Trump and company to support.
确实有可能。这与“净化”燃煤发电厂的原理如出一辙——虽非尽善尽美，但也总比无所作为要强。如果得知中国已经找到了应对其空气污染影响的解决方案，我绝不会感到意外。在清洁能源的各类技术方案方面，中国的先进程度远超我们这里那个奉行“只管猛挖猛采”、将利润置于气候和健康生活环境之上的产业界——而正是这个产业界，曾出资收买特朗普及其同伙为其站台。
Suspicious_Street317
you have to learn to walk first before running.
你得先学会走路，再学跑步。
WhySoConspirious
Looks like you just know how to run into dishing out ad hominems without anything constructive to add. I'd find a better hobby but, to each their own.
看起来你只会冲上来进行人身攻击，没有任何建设性的内容。我会找个更好的爱好，不过各人有各人的选择。
ratbearpig
LOL, what?
"you have to learn to walk first before running."
This is a very common phrase meaning you have to start with something simple before building up to something more challenging.
"Looks like you just know how to run into dishing out ad hominems without anything constructive to add. I'd find a better hobby but, to each their own."
In hindsight, this statement by you appears ignorant. --> not an ad hominem.
You are an idiot. --> This is an ad hominem.
哈哈，什么？
“你得先学会走路，再学跑步。”
这是一个很常见的表达，意思是你需要从简单的事情开始，然后逐步过渡到更有挑战性的事情。
“看起来你只会冲上来进行人身攻击，没有任何建设性的内容。我会找个更好的爱好，不过各人有各人的选择。”
事后看来，你这句话显得很无知。这不是人身攻击。
你是个白痴。 这才是人身攻击。
zweetsam
you have to learn on how to read
你得先学会怎么读。
WhySoConspirious
Ugh, spare me. He didn't just comment on a single comment of mine, but on several. And given this sub and how it routinely glazes China's praiseworthy solar programs, they're already running, not walking. If you want to stand up to some bully, just life vicariously by watching LoTR or something.
唉，省省吧。他可不只是回复了我一条评论，而是好几条。而且考虑到这个版块经常吹捧中国值得称赞的太阳能项目，他们早就在“跑”了，而不是“走”。如果你想对抗什么霸凌者，不如去看看《指环王》之类的作品来代入一下。
zweetsam
lol, don't trust Chinese data.
笑死，别相信中国的数据。
WhySoConspirious
Didn't say I did, but that doesn't mean I don't believe they're making strides in solar at all. Still one of the cheapest methods to produce power.
我没说我相信，但这不代表我不认为他们在太阳能方面取得了进展。它仍然是最便宜的发电方式之一。
zweetsam
not really, nuke is cheaper
不完全是，核能更便宜。
WhySoConspirious
I wrote 'still one of the cheapest.' For someone who wants to tell me to learn how to read, you aren't really leading by example, are you?
我写的是“仍然是最便宜之一”。对于一个让别人学会阅读的人来说，你可没做出好榜样，对吧？
zweetsam
not really, because it's more expensive than coal, hydro, nuke, natural gas.
不是，因为它比煤炭、水电、核能、天然气都更贵。
WhySoConspirious
Now you're just trolling; that's just untrue. Call, nuclear and natural gas all cost more on average per kWh. A basic google search could have told you that. Gtfo
你现在就是在钓鱼，这完全不是真的。煤、电、核能和天然气的平均每千瓦时成本都更高。随便谷歌一下就知道了。滚蛋
VegetableMethod624
If you’re ‘saying’ I’m preaching to the choir’ then,I’m in the right place. I grew up watching big money/business seduce we the people with their carrot and a stick. Lemmings R US.
如果你是说我“在对着已经认同的人说教”，那我就来对了地方。我从小看着大资本/企业用胡萝卜加大棒来诱导我们这些普通人。我们就像旅鼠一样。
zweetsam
China is not the most advanced in WTE tech, Sweden is
中国在垃圾发电技术方面不是最先进的，瑞典才是。
u/VegetableMethod624
VegetableMethod624
Mine was a comparison to Trump’s patronage of the fossil fuels industry and one of the alternative sources of energy generation less damaging to the planet.
我只是拿特朗普对化石燃料产业的支持，和一种对地球破坏更小的替代能源进行对比。
zweetsam
no, you literally said "I won't be surprised to learn China has an answer for the air polluting effects". they don't, they don't operate their scrubbers 24/7. many of their WTE plants in India are still emitting shit tons of dioxins to the air from burning the RDF plastics. why? scrubbers are expensive to run. that's in India, and highly likely the same in China.
不，你原话就是“如果了解到中国有解决空气污染影响的办法我不会惊讶”。他们没有，他们不会24小时运行净化装置。他们在印度的很多垃圾发电厂仍然因为焚烧RDF塑料向空气排放大量二恶英。为什么？因为净化装置运行成本高。在印度是这样，在中国很可能也是一样。
VegetableMethod624
So, you’re somehow convinced I indicated they are in possession of a complete solution for cleaning the effluent from burning trash?!? Your apparent interpretation is completely without substance. The comparison remains valid.
所以你是认定我在说他们已经完全解决了垃圾焚烧排放净化问题？！你的理解完全没有根据。这个对比依然成立。
zweetsam
not a complete solution when the scrubber is taken off. here's the thing, imagine a catalytic converter the size of a fuel tanker, now add 5 more around it and weld it. that's the amount of scrubber I'm talking about. filled with precious metals like platinum. do you think the cheap Chinese and Indians will always put it there? you'll be lucky if there's 1 of those cylinders left. is it enough? no. so no. What will happen is, the OEM will have 5 of this, and rent it out before the inspection.
当净化装置被拆掉时就不是什么完整解决方案了。打个比方，想象一个燃料罐大小的三元催化器，再在周围加5个并焊在一起，这就是我说的净化装置规模，里面充满了像铂这样的贵金属。你觉得这些抠门的中国人和印度人会一直装着它吗？能剩下一个都算幸运。够用吗？不够。所以不行。实际情况是，原厂会有5套这种设备，在检查前租来用。
u/wein_geist
wein_geist
most developed countries do this
大多数发达国家都会这么做。
WhySoConspirious
Didn't say otherwise
我没否认这一点。
khoawala
What ignorance sounds like.
无知听起来是酱婶的
prsnep
It's not "pure, clean" energy. But it very likely is better than the alternative.
它不是“纯净、清洁”的能源，但很可能比替代方案更好。
u/HarveySdebest
HarveySdebest
I mean, it reduces the use of coal and gets rid of the plastic, and burnable waste pollution. It would probably be burned anyway, or just buried, might as well generate energy from it
我的意思是，它减少了煤炭使用，并处理了塑料和可燃垃圾污染。这些垃圾本来可能也会被焚烧或填埋，不如顺便用来发电。
u/HarveySdebest
HarveySdebest
No energy source is 100% clean. Solar panels require minerals and materials whose extraction is energy-intensive and environmentally damaging, and the same is true for wind turbines. Nuclear power generates waste and depends on mining. Hydropower can flood vast areas, destroying habitats, while submerged organic matter decomposes and releases methane. Biogas itself is largely methane. In the end, many of these wastes would likely be burned or buried anyway, so converting them into energy, while also reducing plastic and trash, can be a practical compromise.
没有任何能源是100%清洁的。太阳能电池板需要矿物和材料，其开采既耗能又对环境有害，风力涡轮机也是如此。核能会产生废物并依赖采矿。水电可能淹没大片区域，破坏栖息地，同时被淹没的有机物分解会释放甲烷。沼气本身也主要是甲烷。归根结底，这些废物很多最终还是会被焚烧或填埋，因此把它们转化为能源，同时减少塑料和垃圾，可能是一种务实的折中方案。
When do we start selling our mountains of garbage to them ?
我们什么时候开始把成山的垃圾卖给他们？
u/Sad-Effective-6558
Sad-Effective-6558
America was selling its trash to China for decades. Including most of the plastic we were claiming to recycle. China banned it in 2018 I believe, though maybe it's changed.
美国几十年来一直把垃圾卖到中国，包括我们声称回收的大部分塑料。我记得中国是在2018年禁止的，不过也可能后来有变化。
u/VegetableMethod624
VegetableMethod624
Now that’s interesting! Are there any articles or other media I can access? I’ve been hooked on Chinese/Asian based tech work around for everyday tasks on YouTube and FB and hadn’t ‘heard’ they were buying our trash.
这就有意思了！有没有相关文章或其他资料可以让我看看？我最近一直在油管和脸书上看中国/亚洲的一些日常技术小技巧视频，但没“听说”他们在买我们的垃圾。
u/voidably
voidably
Just google it. It was a big shock to Australia as well
直接谷歌一下吧。这件事对澳大利亚来说也是个很大的冲击。
Brilliant_Tapir
I remember when the new government in Malaysia took over in 2018 and there were containers of mislabeled trash from Canada meant for recycling but being sent here for disposal (probably at a landfill).
我记得2018年马来西亚新政府上台时，有来自加拿大的集装箱垃圾被错误标注为可回收，但实际上被运到这里处理（很可能是填埋）。
Suspicious_Street317
This was decades old news, they banned "garbage" importing due to their own massive consumption yoy.
Trash to electricity is on CCP's national agenda, which is heavily subsidized, im not saying this is a bad thing, but the Government's first priority is not sustainability, is actually AI centers. Sustainability comes second but the tech is very advanced comparing to the rest of the world. They may starting to import garbage again once they run out of their own.
这是几十年前的老新闻了，他们由于自身逐年增长的巨大消费而禁止“垃圾”进口。
垃圾发电是***的国家议程之一，并且有大量补贴，我并不是说这是坏事，但政府的首要优先并不是可持续发展，而是AI中心。可持续发展排在第二，不过相比世界其他地方，这项技术非常先进。一旦他们自己的垃圾用完了，可能会再次开始进口垃圾。
piscator111
These new type garbage processing plants are money makers, they are being exported to the whole world… you gotta stop with this “subsided” BS narrative…
这些新型垃圾处理厂是赚钱的，它们正在被出口到全世界……你得停止这种“补贴”的胡扯说法了……
uncle-iroh-11
Why not simply continue the import if they have a shortage of trash now?
如果他们现在垃圾短缺，为什么不继续进口呢？
zhuinnyc
China banned trash imports in 2018 when they were still struggling with overflowing landfills.
The new waste power plants mostly came online in the last couple of years and the trash shortage only started recently. They may very well resume trash imports once old landfills are used up.
中国在2018年禁止垃圾进口，当时他们还在应对填埋场溢满的问题。
新的垃圾发电厂大多是在过去几年才投入使用，而垃圾短缺是最近才开始的。一旦旧的填埋场被用尽，他们很可能会恢复垃圾进口。
FrankSamples
Why are they importing trash if their landfills were overflowing
如果他们的填埋场都满了，为什么还要进口垃圾？
CryptographerOk6804
They are not. The comment you responded to is saying that when they burn all of their trash they might start importing trash again
他们并没有。你回复的那条评论的意思是，当他们把自己的垃圾都烧完后，可能会再次开始进口垃圾。
u/ansh4916
ansh4916
What are you thinking? Both waste incineration and waste disposal cost money. The profitability of these waste-to-energy plants is the result of government subsidies. If we import waste, it essentially means the Chinese government is using its own funds to subsidize the disposal of other countries' waste.
你在想什么？垃圾焚烧和垃圾处理都是要花钱的。这些垃圾发电厂之所以能盈利，是因为政府补贴。如果我们进口垃圾，本质上意味着中国政府在用自己的资金补贴处理其他国家的垃圾。
Constant_Debate_2848
Although it's called imported waste, the exporter usually pays the waste disposal fee.
虽然叫“进口垃圾”，但通常是出口方支付处理费用。
Suspicious_Street317
Because China's current economy is also sluggish. Government has many stimulus to increase consumer spending, if it works in the long run, the massive population will produce enough garbage for their own use.
因为中国目前的经济也比较疲软。政府有很多刺激措施来增加消费，如果长期有效，庞大的人口会产生足够他们自己使用的垃圾。
u/Awkward-Winner-99
Awkward-Winner-99
I dont think it is economically feasible to buy/sell trash for incineration. It was barely profitable when plastic trash was being recycled
我认为买卖垃圾进行焚烧在经济上不可行。即使在塑料垃圾可以回收利用的时候，这种做法也几乎无利可图。
u/Aggressive_Lie_4446
Aggressive_Lie_4446
Actually most of the West used to do this until some years ago when China banned trash imports.
Now Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia and soon, West Africa are getting the trash.
实际上，大多数西方国家过去一直这么做，直到几年前中国禁止垃圾进口。
现在是印度尼西亚、泰国、马来西亚，以及很快西非地区在接收这些垃圾。
Not_a_real_plebbitor
Why don't you build your own trash incinerator power plants?
为什么你们不自己建垃圾焚烧发电厂？
u/electric-castle
electric-castle
When trash is left in a landfill, it generates methane, which as we all remember is much worse for the climate than CO2. So burning trash in this scenario is a good thing. And much of the carbon in trash is not from fossil fuels, which makes this closer to carbon neutral.
Also, we do not just care about the air, right? Trash ends up in all parts of the environment - rivers, forests, the oceans, in our cities. Reducing trash volume will indirectly reduce pollution across the entire world.
Try to grow some nuance guys.
当垃圾被留在填埋场时，会产生甲烷，而我们都知道甲烷对气候的影响比二氧化碳严重得多。所以在这种情况下焚烧垃圾是件好事。而且垃圾中的很多碳并不是来自化石燃料，这使它更接近碳中和。
另外，我们关心的不只是空气，对吧？垃圾会进入环境的各个部分——河流、森林、海洋、城市。减少垃圾体积会间接减少全球范围的污染。
大家看问题要更细致一点。
DesperateAdvantage76
Modern regulated landfills collect and flare it, which emits CO2 instead of methane.
现代规范化填埋场会收集并燃烧这些气体，从而排放二氧化碳而不是甲烷。
StandardOtherwise302
Energy recoup is still better than flared landfill for much municipal waste.
对于许多城市垃圾来说，能量回收仍然比填埋场直接燃烧更好。
DesperateAdvantage76
I agree, but we shouldn't argue in bad faith as if all landfills are just spewing mass amounts of methane.
我同意，但我们不应该带着恶意争论，好像所有填埋场都在大量排放甲烷一样。
u/Interesting_Pay1220
Interesting_Pay1220
Methane can be collected and burn as fossile fuel. It's all the same. Modern landfills are extremely efficient at capturing it aswell
甲烷可以被收集并作为化石燃料燃烧。其实都一样。现代填埋场在捕获甲烷方面也非常高效。
zweetsam
carbon neutral?????
碳中和？？？？？
Billy3B
You also have to burn fossil fuels to operate the plants, so adding more carbon. The result is easily the 2nd dirtiest form of energy.
你还需要燃烧化石燃料来运行这些工厂，这会增加更多碳排放。结果很容易成为第二脏的能源形式。
WhySoConspirious
Uhhh, burning trash is not 'pure, clean' energy, I don't care what they say.
呃，焚烧垃圾并不是“纯净、清洁”的能源，不管他们怎么说。
NaniFarRoad
Did you watch the video? They have stricter emissions regulations than the EU - the trash is burned in a way that reduces emissions, and they're now digging up old landfill sites as a source of burnable waste.
It is cleaner to burn under controlled conditions than to leave the waste in a landfill, where it seeps mystery chemicals to nearby waterways. Eventually, we won't need as many of these incinerators as we move to a more circular economy, and some of them will have to close down. But this kind of waste management is definitely a good thing.
你看过视频吗？他们的排放标准比欧盟更严格——垃圾以减少排放的方式被焚烧，而且他们现在还在挖掘旧填埋场作为可燃垃圾来源。
在受控条件下焚烧比把垃圾留在填埋场更清洁，因为填埋场会向附近水道渗出各种未知化学物质。最终，随着我们转向更加循环的经济模式，我们不再需要这么多焚烧厂，其中一些将不得不关闭。但这种垃圾管理方式肯定是好事。
u/Rocketeer006
Rocketeer006
Makes sense. Super cool!
有道理。太酷了！
invariantspeed
Also, landfills breed methane.
另外，填埋场会产生甲烷。
Ewy_Kablewy
And worse when we consider the absolute nightmare of garbage juices forming leachate and god knows what mixing with gods knows what else. (All I can say for sure is thank providence for sodium chloride- when there is a plume of leachate the mess typically forces the sodium chloride out first so we can tell something bad is going on.)
更糟的是，当我们考虑垃圾液体形成渗滤液的噩梦，以及天知道什么和什么混在一起。（我唯一能确定的是感谢氯化钠的存在——当出现渗滤液羽流时，这种混乱通常会先把氯化钠挤出来，这样我们就能知道出了问题。）
zweetsam
lol no, stricter than EU my arse. that's CGTN narrative, a state owned media mouthpiece. In India there are several Chinese made WTE/RDF power plants like that and all of them have pollution problems from the chimney. And no, even with circular economy, the RDF plant is still needed and even growing. there are many non recyclable plastics.
Sweden's WTE technology is stricter than that.
笑死，不是，比欧盟更严格？扯吧。这是CGTN的说法，一个国有媒体喉舌。在印度有几个中国制造的垃圾发电/RDF电厂，它们的烟囱都有污染问题。而且不是的，即使有循环经济，RDF电厂仍然是需要的，甚至还在增长，因为有很多不可回收的塑料。
瑞典的垃圾发电技术比那更严格。
Not_a_real_plebbitor
Yeah yeah Chinese people always lie and westerners always speak the truth. Sure thing buddy.
是是是，中国人总是说谎，西方人总是说真话。行吧老兄。
zweetsam
we don't lie, because we verify.
"The report by the Central Pollution Control Board (CPCB), the government's pollution watchdog, submitted to the National Green Tribunal and the Supreme Court in the last week of September, showed dioxins, furans and PM2.5 (particulate matter at 2.5 microns) among chief pollutants being released at levels beyond permissible limits by waste-to-energy plants located in the Okhla, Bawana and Ghazipur areas of Delhi.
Inhaling PM2.5 particles can lead to cardio-vascular diseases, lung cancer, chronic obstructive pulmonary diseases and respiratory disorders. WHO estimates that it causes upwards of four million premature deaths globally each year. Dioxins and furans, generated by incineration at low temperatures, are among the most toxic substances known." （链接）
those plants are using Chinese WTE tech and operated by Indian conglomerates.
我们不撒谎，因为我们会核实。
“中央污染控制委员会——政府的污染监管机构——在9月最后一周提交给国家绿色法庭和最高法院的报告显示，位于德里Okhla、Bawana和Ghazipur地区的垃圾发电厂排放的主要污染物包括二恶英、呋喃和PM2.5（2.5微米颗粒物），其排放水平超过了允许限值。
吸入PM2.5颗粒会导致心血管疾病、肺癌、慢性阻塞性肺病和呼吸系统疾病。世界卫生组织估计，每年全球因此导致超过400万例过早死亡。由低温焚烧产生的二恶英和呋喃是已知最有毒的物质之一。”
这些工厂使用的是中国的垃圾发电技术，由印度大型企业运营。
Not_a_real_plebbitor
“Chinese people are lying because Indians can't run wte plants competently”
Amazing point buddy!
“中国人在撒谎，因为印度人无法胜任地运行垃圾发电厂”
观点真“精彩”，兄弟！
zweetsam
??? do you even read my point? the Chinese are also doing the same thing in China. both are cheap arse people.
again, we don't lie, because we verify
"IPEN (an international network), Arnika Association (Czech Republic) and Insight Explorer (Beijing, China) conducted the survey of free range chicken eggs in the vicinity of several industrial sites in China, which are potential hot spots for persistent toxic chemicals. High levels of very toxic and very persistent dioxins and PCBs were found in samples taken close to waste incinerators and one metallurgical plant, while low levels were found in egg sample from a supermarket in Beijing.
The presence of a very high level of brominated dioxins in eggs collected near a municipal waste incinerator in wuhan shows serious contamination most likely caused by inappropriate handling (burning) of e-waste containing high levels of brominated flame retardants.
The data and analyses of free range chicken eggs were obtained from local people and/or sampled by Chinese NGOs Insight Explorer and Green Beagle during field visits in 2013, 2014, and 2015 from six different industrial localities in China and one sample of eggs from a supermarket in Beijing for comparison. These locations were: Beihai, Guangzhou, wuhan, Qiqihaer, Ziyang, and Shenzhen. Eggs are an important exposure pathway from soil pollution to humans, and eggs from contaminated areas can readily lead to high pollution exposures."（链接）
Oh, that's 12 years ago, they must have changed it. hurrrr.... durrrrr....
“你到底有没有看懂我的观点？中国人在中国也在做同样的事情。两边都是抠门的人。
再说一次，我们不撒谎，因为我们会核实。
IPEN（一个国际网络组织）、Arnika 协会（捷克）以及 Insight Explorer（中国北京）对中国数个工业设施周边的散养鸡鸡蛋进行了调查；这些工业设施所在地被视为潜在的持久性有毒化学品热点区域。在靠近废弃物焚烧炉和一家冶金厂的采样点所采集的样本中，检测出了高浓度的剧毒且极具持久性的二恶英和多氯联苯；而在取自北京某超市的鸡蛋样本中，此类物质的含量则处于较低水平。
在武汉某城市垃圾焚烧厂附近收集的鸡蛋中，检测出极高含量的溴代二恶英，这表明当地存在严重的污染；此类污染极有可能源于对含有高浓度溴代阻燃剂的电子垃圾进行了不当处置（焚烧）。
关于散养鸡蛋的数据与分析，部分源自当地居民的提供，部分则由中国非政府组织（Insight Explorer）和（Green Beagle）在2013、2014及2015年的实地考察期间亲自采样获得；这些样本采集自中国六个不同的工业区，此外还从北京的一家超市采集了一份鸡蛋样本作为对照。具体地点包括：北海、广州、武汉、齐齐哈尔、资阳和深圳。鸡蛋是土壤污染物向人体迁移的重要途径，来自受污染地区的鸡蛋极易导致人体遭受高剂量的污染物暴露。（链接）
噢，那是12年前的事了，他们肯定早就整改了。呵呵……
NaniFarRoad
Is that the same as these plants? I thought these were high temp pyrolysis, which releases almost no PM.
这和这些工厂是一样的吗？我以为这些是高温热解，几乎不释放颗粒物。
zweetsam
lol, no, plasma pyrolysis is expensive, too expensive for them
笑死，不是，等离子热解很贵，对他们来说太贵了。
NaniFarRoad
Don't let perfection get in the way of progress.
不要让完美成为进步的阻碍。
zweetsam
no, I'm just allergic to BS and lies when they emit dioxins to the air more than Dow plant in India
不，我只是对胡扯和谎言过敏，尤其是当它们向空气中排放的二恶英比印度陶氏工厂还多的时候。
u/VegetableMethod624
VegetableMethod624
It can be. Same principle as ‘cleaning’ coal burning electrical plants; not perfect but better than not. I won’t be surprised to learn China has an answer for the air polluting effects . They’re much more advanced in so many tech solutions for clean energy than our “drill baby drill” profits before climate and healthy living conditions industry they paid Trump and company to support.
确实有可能。这与“净化”燃煤发电厂的原理如出一辙——虽非尽善尽美，但也总比无所作为要强。如果得知中国已经找到了应对其空气污染影响的解决方案，我绝不会感到意外。在清洁能源的各类技术方案方面，中国的先进程度远超我们这里那个奉行“只管猛挖猛采”、将利润置于气候和健康生活环境之上的产业界——而正是这个产业界，曾出资收买特朗普及其同伙为其站台。
Suspicious_Street317
you have to learn to walk first before running.
你得先学会走路，再学跑步。
WhySoConspirious
Looks like you just know how to run into dishing out ad hominems without anything constructive to add. I'd find a better hobby but, to each their own.
看起来你只会冲上来进行人身攻击，没有任何建设性的内容。我会找个更好的爱好，不过各人有各人的选择。
ratbearpig
LOL, what?
"you have to learn to walk first before running."
This is a very common phrase meaning you have to start with something simple before building up to something more challenging.
"Looks like you just know how to run into dishing out ad hominems without anything constructive to add. I'd find a better hobby but, to each their own."
In hindsight, this statement by you appears ignorant. --> not an ad hominem.
You are an idiot. --> This is an ad hominem.
哈哈，什么？
“你得先学会走路，再学跑步。”
这是一个很常见的表达，意思是你需要从简单的事情开始，然后逐步过渡到更有挑战性的事情。
“看起来你只会冲上来进行人身攻击，没有任何建设性的内容。我会找个更好的爱好，不过各人有各人的选择。”
事后看来，你这句话显得很无知。这不是人身攻击。
你是个白痴。 这才是人身攻击。
zweetsam
you have to learn on how to read
你得先学会怎么读。
WhySoConspirious
Ugh, spare me. He didn't just comment on a single comment of mine, but on several. And given this sub and how it routinely glazes China's praiseworthy solar programs, they're already running, not walking. If you want to stand up to some bully, just life vicariously by watching LoTR or something.
唉，省省吧。他可不只是回复了我一条评论，而是好几条。而且考虑到这个版块经常吹捧中国值得称赞的太阳能项目，他们早就在“跑”了，而不是“走”。如果你想对抗什么霸凌者，不如去看看《指环王》之类的作品来代入一下。
zweetsam
lol, don't trust Chinese data.
笑死，别相信中国的数据。
WhySoConspirious
Didn't say I did, but that doesn't mean I don't believe they're making strides in solar at all. Still one of the cheapest methods to produce power.
我没说我相信，但这不代表我不认为他们在太阳能方面取得了进展。它仍然是最便宜的发电方式之一。
zweetsam
not really, nuke is cheaper
不完全是，核能更便宜。
WhySoConspirious
I wrote 'still one of the cheapest.' For someone who wants to tell me to learn how to read, you aren't really leading by example, are you?
我写的是“仍然是最便宜之一”。对于一个让别人学会阅读的人来说，你可没做出好榜样，对吧？
zweetsam
not really, because it's more expensive than coal, hydro, nuke, natural gas.
不是，因为它比煤炭、水电、核能、天然气都更贵。
WhySoConspirious
Now you're just trolling; that's just untrue. Call, nuclear and natural gas all cost more on average per kWh. A basic google search could have told you that. Gtfo
你现在就是在钓鱼，这完全不是真的。煤、电、核能和天然气的平均每千瓦时成本都更高。随便谷歌一下就知道了。滚蛋
VegetableMethod624
If you’re ‘saying’ I’m preaching to the choir’ then,I’m in the right place. I grew up watching big money/business seduce we the people with their carrot and a stick. Lemmings R US.
如果你是说我“在对着已经认同的人说教”，那我就来对了地方。我从小看着大资本/企业用胡萝卜加大棒来诱导我们这些普通人。我们就像旅鼠一样。
zweetsam
China is not the most advanced in WTE tech, Sweden is
中国在垃圾发电技术方面不是最先进的，瑞典才是。
u/VegetableMethod624
VegetableMethod624
Mine was a comparison to Trump’s patronage of the fossil fuels industry and one of the alternative sources of energy generation less damaging to the planet.
我只是拿特朗普对化石燃料产业的支持，和一种对地球破坏更小的替代能源进行对比。
zweetsam
no, you literally said "I won't be surprised to learn China has an answer for the air polluting effects". they don't, they don't operate their scrubbers 24/7. many of their WTE plants in India are still emitting shit tons of dioxins to the air from burning the RDF plastics. why? scrubbers are expensive to run. that's in India, and highly likely the same in China.
不，你原话就是“如果了解到中国有解决空气污染影响的办法我不会惊讶”。他们没有，他们不会24小时运行净化装置。他们在印度的很多垃圾发电厂仍然因为焚烧RDF塑料向空气排放大量二恶英。为什么？因为净化装置运行成本高。在印度是这样，在中国很可能也是一样。
VegetableMethod624
So, you’re somehow convinced I indicated they are in possession of a complete solution for cleaning the effluent from burning trash?!? Your apparent interpretation is completely without substance. The comparison remains valid.
所以你是认定我在说他们已经完全解决了垃圾焚烧排放净化问题？！你的理解完全没有根据。这个对比依然成立。
zweetsam
not a complete solution when the scrubber is taken off. here's the thing, imagine a catalytic converter the size of a fuel tanker, now add 5 more around it and weld it. that's the amount of scrubber I'm talking about. filled with precious metals like platinum. do you think the cheap Chinese and Indians will always put it there? you'll be lucky if there's 1 of those cylinders left. is it enough? no. so no. What will happen is, the OEM will have 5 of this, and rent it out before the inspection.
当净化装置被拆掉时就不是什么完整解决方案了。打个比方，想象一个燃料罐大小的三元催化器，再在周围加5个并焊在一起，这就是我说的净化装置规模，里面充满了像铂这样的贵金属。你觉得这些抠门的中国人和印度人会一直装着它吗？能剩下一个都算幸运。够用吗？不够。所以不行。实际情况是，原厂会有5套这种设备，在检查前租来用。
u/wein_geist
wein_geist
most developed countries do this
大多数发达国家都会这么做。
WhySoConspirious
Didn't say otherwise
我没否认这一点。
khoawala
What ignorance sounds like.
无知听起来是酱婶的
prsnep
It's not "pure, clean" energy. But it very likely is better than the alternative.
它不是“纯净、清洁”的能源，但很可能比替代方案更好。
u/HarveySdebest
HarveySdebest
I mean, it reduces the use of coal and gets rid of the plastic, and burnable waste pollution. It would probably be burned anyway, or just buried, might as well generate energy from it
我的意思是，它减少了煤炭使用，并处理了塑料和可燃垃圾污染。这些垃圾本来可能也会被焚烧或填埋，不如顺便用来发电。
u/HarveySdebest
HarveySdebest
No energy source is 100% clean. Solar panels require minerals and materials whose extraction is energy-intensive and environmentally damaging, and the same is true for wind turbines. Nuclear power generates waste and depends on mining. Hydropower can flood vast areas, destroying habitats, while submerged organic matter decomposes and releases methane. Biogas itself is largely methane. In the end, many of these wastes would likely be burned or buried anyway, so converting them into energy, while also reducing plastic and trash, can be a practical compromise.
没有任何能源是100%清洁的。太阳能电池板需要矿物和材料，其开采既耗能又对环境有害，风力涡轮机也是如此。核能会产生废物并依赖采矿。水电可能淹没大片区域，破坏栖息地，同时被淹没的有机物分解会释放甲烷。沼气本身也主要是甲烷。归根结底，这些废物很多最终还是会被焚烧或填埋，因此把它们转化为能源，同时减少塑料和垃圾，可能是一种务实的折中方案。
