被战争蹂躏的乌克兰的文化失忆症
正文翻译
Leo Tolstoy and his wife Sophia in Gaspra, Crimea, where they lived in 1901-1902. Found in the collection of the State Museum of Leo Tolstoy, Moscow. (Photo by Fine Art Images/Heritage Images/Getty Images)
列夫`托尔斯泰和他的妻子索菲亚在克里米亚的加斯帕拉，他们在1901-1902年住在那里。这张照片发现于莫斯科列夫·托尔斯泰国家博物馆的收藏品之中。
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The great division after the modern world will be between historical and ahistorical regimes.
现代世界之后的大分裂将是历史性政权和非历史性政权之间的分裂。
现代世界之后的大分裂将是历史性政权和非历史性政权之间的分裂。
Leo Tolstoy and his wife Sophia in Gaspra, Crimea, where they lived in 1901-1902. Found in the collection of the State Museum of Leo Tolstoy, Moscow. (Photo by Fine Art Images/Heritage Images/Getty Images)
列夫`托尔斯泰和他的妻子索菲亚在克里米亚的加斯帕拉，他们在1901-1902年住在那里。这张照片发现于莫斯科列夫·托尔斯泰国家博物馆的收藏品之中。
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Who is the Tolstoy of the Ukrainians? Don’t you dare say Tolstoy.
谁是乌克兰人的托尔斯泰？你敢说是托尔斯泰吗？
谁是乌克兰人的托尔斯泰？你敢说是托尔斯泰吗？
Lest anyone think that America’s race radicals have a monopoly on historical erasure, the liberal elite of Ukraine have taken up their own campaign of posthumous cancellation. Leo Tolstoy, the great 19th-century writer, tops the list.
为了避免有人认为美国的种族激进分子垄断了历史的抹杀工作，乌克兰的自由主义精英们已经开始了他们自己的已故人士抵制运动。列夫·托尔斯泰——这位19世纪的伟大作家——位居榜首。
为了避免有人认为美国的种族激进分子垄断了历史的抹杀工作，乌克兰的自由主义精英们已经开始了他们自己的已故人士抵制运动。列夫·托尔斯泰——这位19世纪的伟大作家——位居榜首。
Born to a family of old nobility in Western Russia in 1828, Tolstoy is universally renowned for monumental works like War and Peace and Anna Karenina. He is also the namesake of a city square and subway station in Kiev, Ukraine—though maybe not for long. The capital’s city council is mulling the idea of renaming the landmarks after Vasyl Stus, a dissident Ukrainian poet of the Soviet era whose stature is a tiny fraction of the Russian’s.
托尔斯泰于1828年出生于俄罗斯西部的一个旧贵族家庭，因《战争与和平》和《安娜·卡列尼娜》等不朽作品而举世闻名。乌克兰基辅的一个城市广场和地铁站也以他的名字命名——尽管可能不会持续太久。基辅的市议会正在考虑以瓦西尔·斯图斯的名字重新命名这些地标，他是苏联时期的乌克兰的异见诗人，其地位仅相当于俄罗斯人中的极少数派别。
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托尔斯泰于1828年出生于俄罗斯西部的一个旧贵族家庭，因《战争与和平》和《安娜·卡列尼娜》等不朽作品而举世闻名。乌克兰基辅的一个城市广场和地铁站也以他的名字命名——尽管可能不会持续太久。基辅的市议会正在考虑以瓦西尔·斯图斯的名字重新命名这些地标，他是苏联时期的乌克兰的异见诗人，其地位仅相当于俄罗斯人中的极少数派别。
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The move is part of a broader effort to “decolonize” Ukrainian public culture, purging all potential lixs to the young Slavic country’s much larger neighbor. Professedly a rejection of Russian imperialism, the push is both foolish and doomed to fail. The choice of Tolstoy as a target illustrates one major reason why.
此举是乌克兰公共文化“去殖民化”的更广泛努力的一部分，它清除了与这个年轻的斯拉夫国家的更大邻国的所有潜在联系。声称是对俄罗斯帝国主义的抵制的这种推动进程既愚蠢又注定要失败。选择托尔斯泰作为目标说明了其中的一个主要原因。
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此举是乌克兰公共文化“去殖民化”的更广泛努力的一部分，它清除了与这个年轻的斯拉夫国家的更大邻国的所有潜在联系。声称是对俄罗斯帝国主义的抵制的这种推动进程既愚蠢又注定要失败。选择托尔斯泰作为目标说明了其中的一个主要原因。
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In his early twenties, Tolstoy served as an artillery officer in the Imperial Russian Army during the Crimean War of 1853-56, in which Ukraine was merely a battleground between Russia and an alliance of Western powers (and the Ottomans). In his relatively brief service, Tolstoy endured the long siege of Sevastopol and took part in some of the campaign’s bloodiest battles. The bloodshed he experienced in Crimea made Tolstoy a devoted enemy of violence, inspiring the Christian anarchist thought that earned him suspicion from spiritual and temporal authorities in Moscow. In his later years, Tolstoy spent time peacefully on the Black Sea in Gaspra, a town in Crimean territory now claimed by Ukraine. If this is really about outrage at wartime brutality against the people of that region, then few better figureheads could be found for the cause than the pacifist Leo Tolstoy.
托尔斯泰20多岁时，在1853-56年的克里米亚战争中担任俄罗斯帝国军队的炮兵军官，在这场战争中，乌克兰只是俄罗斯和西方国家联盟（以及奥斯曼）之间的一个战场。在相对短暂的服役期间，托尔斯泰忍受了针对塞瓦斯托波尔的长期围困，并参加了一些战役中最血腥的战斗。他在克里米亚经历的流血事件使托尔斯泰成为暴力的忠实敌人，激发了基督教无政府主义思想，使他在莫斯科受到宗教和世俗当局的怀疑。在其晚年，托尔斯泰在加斯普拉的黑海上平静地度过了一段时间，加斯普拉是现在乌克兰声称拥有主权的克里米亚领土上的一座小镇。如果这真的是对战时针对该地区人民的残暴行为的愤怒，那么没有什么比和平主义者列夫·托尔斯泰更适合这一事业的人物了。
托尔斯泰20多岁时，在1853-56年的克里米亚战争中担任俄罗斯帝国军队的炮兵军官，在这场战争中，乌克兰只是俄罗斯和西方国家联盟（以及奥斯曼）之间的一个战场。在相对短暂的服役期间，托尔斯泰忍受了针对塞瓦斯托波尔的长期围困，并参加了一些战役中最血腥的战斗。他在克里米亚经历的流血事件使托尔斯泰成为暴力的忠实敌人，激发了基督教无政府主义思想，使他在莫斯科受到宗教和世俗当局的怀疑。在其晚年，托尔斯泰在加斯普拉的黑海上平静地度过了一段时间，加斯普拉是现在乌克兰声称拥有主权的克里米亚领土上的一座小镇。如果这真的是对战时针对该地区人民的残暴行为的愤怒，那么没有什么比和平主义者列夫·托尔斯泰更适合这一事业的人物了。
Other targets suggest more mundane problems with Ukraine’s “de-Russification.” Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, the great patriotic Russian composer, was born in Votkinsk on the Russian side of the modern Ukrainian border. But his great-grandfather was a Cossack warrior who distinguished himself in combat against the Swedes at the Battle of Poltava in 1709, and his family’s roots in present-day Ukraine were deep and noteworthy. Kiev’s conservatory is named in his honor—though that, along with a number of streets and other honorifics, is being reconsidered. Leading figures in the Ukrainian musical scene are even insistent that the works of Tchaikovsky and other Russian artists must not be performed in the country going forward.
其他目标表明乌克兰的“去俄罗斯化”运动存在更多世俗的问题。伟大的爱国俄罗斯作曲家彼得·伊里奇·柴可夫斯基出生在现代乌克兰边境俄罗斯一侧的沃特金斯克。但他的曾祖父是一位哥萨克战士，在1709年波尔塔瓦战役中与瑞典人作战时表现突出，他的家族在今天的乌克兰根基深厚，地位显赫。基辅的音乐学院是以他的名字命名的——尽管这与一些街道名称和其他荣誉称号一起，正在被考虑更名。乌克兰音乐界的主要人物甚至坚持认为，柴可夫斯基和其他俄罗斯艺术家的作品今后不得在该国演出。
其他目标表明乌克兰的“去俄罗斯化”运动存在更多世俗的问题。伟大的爱国俄罗斯作曲家彼得·伊里奇·柴可夫斯基出生在现代乌克兰边境俄罗斯一侧的沃特金斯克。但他的曾祖父是一位哥萨克战士，在1709年波尔塔瓦战役中与瑞典人作战时表现突出，他的家族在今天的乌克兰根基深厚，地位显赫。基辅的音乐学院是以他的名字命名的——尽管这与一些街道名称和其他荣誉称号一起，正在被考虑更名。乌克兰音乐界的主要人物甚至坚持认为，柴可夫斯基和其他俄罗斯艺术家的作品今后不得在该国演出。
Mikhail Bulgakov may not have quite been Tolstoy, but The Master and Margarita is one of the great works of 20th century literature. Bulgakov was born in Kiev in 1891 to a family teeming with Orthodox clergymen. He was educated there all the way through medical school, his first long-term departure from the city being a front-line deployment as a medic in the First World War. He crossed back and forth over present-day borders a bit, eventually settling in Moscow at the age of thirty. Having done some work as a journalist already, Bulgakov became a writer and satirist of some note, and a number of his works were banned by Joseph Stalin.
米哈伊尔·布尔加科夫可能比不上托尔斯泰，但《大师与玛格丽特》仍然是20世纪文学的伟大作品之一。布尔加科夫于1891年出生于基辅一个充满东正教神职人员的家庭。他一直在那里接受教育，直到读完医学院，他第一次长期离开这个城市是在第一次世界大战中被派往前线当医生。他在今天的边界上来回穿梭，最终在30岁时定居在莫斯科。布尔加科夫做过一些记者的工作，他成为了一个有一定知名度的作家和讽刺作家，他的一些作品被约瑟夫·斯大林禁止。
米哈伊尔·布尔加科夫可能比不上托尔斯泰，但《大师与玛格丽特》仍然是20世纪文学的伟大作品之一。布尔加科夫于1891年出生于基辅一个充满东正教神职人员的家庭。他一直在那里接受教育，直到读完医学院，他第一次长期离开这个城市是在第一次世界大战中被派往前线当医生。他在今天的边界上来回穿梭，最终在30岁时定居在莫斯科。布尔加科夫做过一些记者的工作，他成为了一个有一定知名度的作家和讽刺作家，他的一些作品被约瑟夫·斯大林禁止。
Was Tchaikovsky Ukrainian? Was Bulgakov Russian? I’d answer yes to both, though I’d say the same to the inverse just as quickly. History is not black and white, and a dark line cannot be drawn between two nations whose connections are so close and so longstanding.
柴可夫斯基是乌克兰人吗？布尔加科夫是俄罗斯人吗？我对这两个问题的回答都是肯定的，尽管我也会很快对相反的问题做出同样的回答。历史不是非黑即白的，在两个关系如此密切、历史如此悠久的国家之间不能划出一条暗线。
柴可夫斯基是乌克兰人吗？布尔加科夫是俄罗斯人吗？我对这两个问题的回答都是肯定的，尽管我也会很快对相反的问题做出同样的回答。历史不是非黑即白的，在两个关系如此密切、历史如此悠久的国家之间不能划出一条暗线。
Vladimir Putin certainly knows this. But his interpretation of the fact is colored by a fanatical nationalism and panic at the encroachment of hostile foreign powers. Yes, Ukraine is a fake country. There are maybe half a dozen on the face of the planet that aren’t. But the complexities of history, civilization, and empire cannot be treated as absolutes in the face of modern nationalism, nation-states, and warfare.
弗拉基米尔·普京当然知道这一点。但他对这一事实的解释被狂热的民族主义和对敌对的外国势力侵占的恐慌所染指。是的，乌克兰是一个虚假的国家。在这个星球上，也许只有半打国家不是虚假的国家。但在现代民族主义、民族国家和战争面前，历史、文明和帝国的复杂性不能被当作绝对的东西。
弗拉基米尔·普京当然知道这一点。但他对这一事实的解释被狂热的民族主义和对敌对的外国势力侵占的恐慌所染指。是的，乌克兰是一个虚假的国家。在这个星球上，也许只有半打国家不是虚假的国家。但在现代民族主义、民族国家和战争面前，历史、文明和帝国的复杂性不能被当作绝对的东西。
Ukrainian and Western authorities do a great disservice when they answer Putin’s twisted truth with out-and-out fabrication. Early on in the present conflict, the American embassy in Kiev tweeted an embarrassing meme that somebody must have thought undermined Putin’s imperial claims:
当乌克兰和西方当局以彻头彻尾的捏造虚构来回答普京扭曲的事实时，他们做了一件非常不利的事情。在当前冲突的早期，美国驻基辅大使馆在推特上发布了一个令人尴尬的备忘录，一定是有人认为它削弱了普京的帝国主义主张。
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当乌克兰和西方当局以彻头彻尾的捏造虚构来回答普京扭曲的事实时，他们做了一件非常不利的事情。在当前冲突的早期，美国驻基辅大使馆在推特上发布了一个令人尴尬的备忘录，一定是有人认为它削弱了普京的帝国主义主张。
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This feeds directly into Putin’s point, of course. The history of Kiev going back more than a millennium is the history of Russia, just as much as it is the history of Ukraine. The actual political conclusions to be drawn from that can be debated, but the fact itself cannot simply be denied. In attempting to cleave the one culture and history from the other, these people only manage to illustrate that it cannot and should not be done.
当然，这也直接说明了普京的观点。基辅的历史可以追溯到一千多年前，它是俄罗斯的历史，同样也是乌克兰的历史。从中得出的实际政治结论值得争论，但事实本身是不能简单否认的。在试图将一种文化和历史从另一种文化和历史中分离出来的过程中，这些人的所作所为只能说明不能也不应该这样做。
当然，这也直接说明了普京的观点。基辅的历史可以追溯到一千多年前，它是俄罗斯的历史，同样也是乌克兰的历史。从中得出的实际政治结论值得争论，但事实本身是不能简单否认的。在试图将一种文化和历史从另一种文化和历史中分离出来的过程中，这些人的所作所为只能说明不能也不应该这样做。
It is becoming increasingly clear that the great division after the modern world will be between historical and ahistorical regimes: those that recognize the power of history and the reality of the incarnate order, and those that admit only to abstractions detached from the men and centuries that laid down their foundations.
越来越清楚的是，现代世界之后的大分裂将是历史的和非历史的政权之间的分裂：那些承认历史的力量和化身秩序的现实的政权，以及那些只承认脱离了奠定其基础的人和世纪的抽象概念的政权。
越来越清楚的是，现代世界之后的大分裂将是历史的和非历史的政权之间的分裂：那些承认历史的力量和化身秩序的现实的政权，以及那些只承认脱离了奠定其基础的人和世纪的抽象概念的政权。
Ukraine, as it attempts to blend hypernationalism with a new liberal identity, finds itself torn between the two. It is a familiar dilemma for many in the West—as existential for the people of Ukraine as it is for each of us.
乌克兰在试图将超民族主义与新的自由主义身份相融合时，发现自己在这两者之间纠结。对于西方的许多人来说，这是一个熟悉的困境——对于乌克兰人民来说如此，对我们每个人的生存问题而言也是如此。
乌克兰在试图将超民族主义与新的自由主义身份相融合时，发现自己在这两者之间纠结。对于西方的许多人来说，这是一个熟悉的困境——对于乌克兰人民来说如此，对我们每个人的生存问题而言也是如此。
评论翻译
John Michener
If you are looking for a writer/poet for modern Ukraine, look at Taras Shevchenko. While not well known outside of Ukraine, he may be viewed as foundational for modern Ukraine.
如果你在寻找现代乌克兰的作家和诗人，可以看看塔拉斯·舍甫琴科。虽然在乌克兰以外的地方不太出名，但他可能被视为现代乌克兰的奠基性作家。
If you are looking for a writer/poet for modern Ukraine, look at Taras Shevchenko. While not well known outside of Ukraine, he may be viewed as foundational for modern Ukraine.
如果你在寻找现代乌克兰的作家和诗人，可以看看塔拉斯·舍甫琴科。虽然在乌克兰以外的地方不太出名，但他可能被视为现代乌克兰的奠基性作家。
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maralexa@inbox.ru John Michener
He wrote his works mainly in Russian, lived in St.Petersburg dependent on Russian benefactors money. The only Ukranian he had was his rage against Russia!
他的作品主要是用俄语写的，他住在圣彼得堡，依靠俄罗斯施主的钱过活。他唯一表现出来的乌克兰特质是他对俄罗斯的愤怒！
maralexa@inbox.ru John Michener
He wrote his works mainly in Russian, lived in St.Petersburg dependent on Russian benefactors money. The only Ukranian he had was his rage against Russia!
他的作品主要是用俄语写的，他住在圣彼得堡，依靠俄罗斯施主的钱过活。他唯一表现出来的乌克兰特质是他对俄罗斯的愤怒！
George Antrobus
Patience and compassion are in order. At the start of the Great War, the family surname of Britain's King George V was Saxe-Coburg-Gotha -- changed to Windsor before that war ended.
I lived in a place once called German Valley, until that same war. I don't know the answer, but I wonder how much orchestras in Israel played music of Brahms early in that state's history?
The poison of "hypernationalism" infects many places. It is NOT more typical of Ukraine than of dozens of other states. It can't prevail there (too many Ukrainians have Russian as their first language and/or ancestry).
When Russia's aggression, oppression, murder, torture and occupation have ended, perspectives will gradually rebalance.
耐心和同情心是有的。大战开始时，英国国王乔治五世的家族姓氏是萨克森·科堡·戈塔——在那场战争结束前改成了温莎。
我住在一个曾经叫德国谷的地方，直到那场战争爆发（才改名）。我不知道答案，但我想知道以色列的管弦乐队在这个国家的历史早期是否多少演奏过勃拉姆斯的音乐作品？
“超民族主义”的流毒感染了许多地方。它在乌克兰并不比其他几十个国家更典型。它不可能在那里盛行（太多的乌克兰人把俄语作为他们的第一语言，把俄罗斯人当作他们的祖先）。
当俄罗斯的侵略、压迫、谋杀、酷刑和占领结束后，视角将逐渐恢复平衡。
Patience and compassion are in order. At the start of the Great War, the family surname of Britain's King George V was Saxe-Coburg-Gotha -- changed to Windsor before that war ended.
I lived in a place once called German Valley, until that same war. I don't know the answer, but I wonder how much orchestras in Israel played music of Brahms early in that state's history?
The poison of "hypernationalism" infects many places. It is NOT more typical of Ukraine than of dozens of other states. It can't prevail there (too many Ukrainians have Russian as their first language and/or ancestry).
When Russia's aggression, oppression, murder, torture and occupation have ended, perspectives will gradually rebalance.
耐心和同情心是有的。大战开始时，英国国王乔治五世的家族姓氏是萨克森·科堡·戈塔——在那场战争结束前改成了温莎。
我住在一个曾经叫德国谷的地方，直到那场战争爆发（才改名）。我不知道答案，但我想知道以色列的管弦乐队在这个国家的历史早期是否多少演奏过勃拉姆斯的音乐作品？
“超民族主义”的流毒感染了许多地方。它在乌克兰并不比其他几十个国家更典型。它不可能在那里盛行（太多的乌克兰人把俄语作为他们的第一语言，把俄罗斯人当作他们的祖先）。
当俄罗斯的侵略、压迫、谋杀、酷刑和占领结束后，视角将逐渐恢复平衡。
Mike George Antrobus
Curiously two European royal families still bear the Saxe Coburg Gotha name - the still ruling Belgian royal family and the deposed royal family of Bulgaria, though the fellow who would be their king did get elected as prime minister in the 1990’s.
Some place names will change but many others will persist. There’s still a Prince William county in VA and Prince George’s in MD to mention just two examples. This almost 250 yrs after the American War of Independence.
奇怪的是，有两个欧洲王室仍然使用萨克森·科堡·哥达的名字——仍在执政的比利时王室和被废黜的保加利亚王室，尽管那个本来要成为他们国王的家伙在1990年代确实被选为了总理。
一些地名会改变，但其他许多地名会持续存在。仅举两个例子，弗吉尼亚州的威廉王子郡和马里兰州的乔治王子郡仍然存在。这是在美国独立战争后近250年。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Curiously two European royal families still bear the Saxe Coburg Gotha name - the still ruling Belgian royal family and the deposed royal family of Bulgaria, though the fellow who would be their king did get elected as prime minister in the 1990’s.
Some place names will change but many others will persist. There’s still a Prince William county in VA and Prince George’s in MD to mention just two examples. This almost 250 yrs after the American War of Independence.
奇怪的是，有两个欧洲王室仍然使用萨克森·科堡·哥达的名字——仍在执政的比利时王室和被废黜的保加利亚王室，尽管那个本来要成为他们国王的家伙在1990年代确实被选为了总理。
一些地名会改变，但其他许多地名会持续存在。仅举两个例子，弗吉尼亚州的威廉王子郡和马里兰州的乔治王子郡仍然存在。这是在美国独立战争后近250年。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
bgdg
One character of western nations is that nearly all of them have national mythologies and a sense of national history. This is true for Russia, Ukraine, China, US, etc. It's part of creating and maintaining a national identity, and can even persist in countries that wink out of existence for a while (see Poland, which didn't exist for about 150 years, or for that matter Israel) or ethnic populations that have always been stateless (see Kurdistan). And so while I think they're going way overboard, Ukraine's attempt to rewrite history is understandable. As is Russia's insistence that Ukraine is "not a state", but inextricably bound with Russia. But if claims to identity were acceptable as a basis of war through the world, there would be chaos. Which is why territorial integrity means to much, insofar as it is a clear and obxtive descxtor of a country.
While i understand how both Ukraine and Russia are trying to offer competing national narratives, I'm really not that sympathetic with either one. History should be uncut, national myths should be identified as the allegorical stories that they often are. But nations often use these narratives in self-serving ways, and likely always will when a war is involved. But truth is one of the first casualties once the bullets start flying, and in that regard the Ukrainian war is not different than dozens of other wars fought over some form of grievance, to restore some notion of grandeur, or simply because one nation views its history and culture as superior to that of another. And hence war is not just a battle of weapons and people, it ends up being a battle of culture.
西方国家的一个特点是，几乎所有的国家都有民族神话和民族历史感。俄罗斯、乌克兰、中国、美国等都是如此。这是创造和维持国家认同的一部分，甚至可以在那些眨眼间就不存在的国家（比如波兰，它大约有150年时间是不存在的，或者以色列）或一直没有国家的民族（比如库尔德斯坦）中持续存在。因此，虽然我认为他们做得很过分，但乌克兰试图改写历史是可以理解的。正如俄罗斯坚持认为乌克兰“不是一个国家”，而是与俄罗斯密不可分。但是，如果对身份的主张可以被接受为全世界的战争基础，那么就会出现混乱。这就是为什么领土完整意义重大，因为它是一个国家的明确和客观的描述。
虽然我理解乌克兰和俄罗斯都在努力提供相互竞争的国家叙事，但我真的不那么同情任何一方。历史应该是不加修饰的，民族神话应该被认定为寓言故事，而它们往往就是这样。但国家经常以自私自利的方式使用这些叙事，而且在涉及战争时可能总是如此。但是，一旦子弹开始横飞，真相就会成为首当其冲的牺牲品之一，在这方面，乌克兰战争与其他几场因某种形式的不满、为恢复某种宏伟概念，或者仅仅是因为一个国家认为其历史和文化优于另一个国家而进行的战争没有区别。因此，战争不仅仅是一场武器和人民的战斗，它最终是一场文化的战斗。
One character of western nations is that nearly all of them have national mythologies and a sense of national history. This is true for Russia, Ukraine, China, US, etc. It's part of creating and maintaining a national identity, and can even persist in countries that wink out of existence for a while (see Poland, which didn't exist for about 150 years, or for that matter Israel) or ethnic populations that have always been stateless (see Kurdistan). And so while I think they're going way overboard, Ukraine's attempt to rewrite history is understandable. As is Russia's insistence that Ukraine is "not a state", but inextricably bound with Russia. But if claims to identity were acceptable as a basis of war through the world, there would be chaos. Which is why territorial integrity means to much, insofar as it is a clear and obxtive descxtor of a country.
While i understand how both Ukraine and Russia are trying to offer competing national narratives, I'm really not that sympathetic with either one. History should be uncut, national myths should be identified as the allegorical stories that they often are. But nations often use these narratives in self-serving ways, and likely always will when a war is involved. But truth is one of the first casualties once the bullets start flying, and in that regard the Ukrainian war is not different than dozens of other wars fought over some form of grievance, to restore some notion of grandeur, or simply because one nation views its history and culture as superior to that of another. And hence war is not just a battle of weapons and people, it ends up being a battle of culture.
西方国家的一个特点是，几乎所有的国家都有民族神话和民族历史感。俄罗斯、乌克兰、中国、美国等都是如此。这是创造和维持国家认同的一部分，甚至可以在那些眨眼间就不存在的国家（比如波兰，它大约有150年时间是不存在的，或者以色列）或一直没有国家的民族（比如库尔德斯坦）中持续存在。因此，虽然我认为他们做得很过分，但乌克兰试图改写历史是可以理解的。正如俄罗斯坚持认为乌克兰“不是一个国家”，而是与俄罗斯密不可分。但是，如果对身份的主张可以被接受为全世界的战争基础，那么就会出现混乱。这就是为什么领土完整意义重大，因为它是一个国家的明确和客观的描述。
虽然我理解乌克兰和俄罗斯都在努力提供相互竞争的国家叙事，但我真的不那么同情任何一方。历史应该是不加修饰的，民族神话应该被认定为寓言故事，而它们往往就是这样。但国家经常以自私自利的方式使用这些叙事，而且在涉及战争时可能总是如此。但是，一旦子弹开始横飞，真相就会成为首当其冲的牺牲品之一，在这方面，乌克兰战争与其他几场因某种形式的不满、为恢复某种宏伟概念，或者仅仅是因为一个国家认为其历史和文化优于另一个国家而进行的战争没有区别。因此，战争不仅仅是一场武器和人民的战斗，它最终是一场文化的战斗。
shagrock
Putin's Russia needs Lebensraum. A concept Ukraine is familiiar with from bitter experience.
But apparently Ukraine are the nazis.
普京的俄罗斯需要“生活空间”。乌克兰在痛苦的经历中对这个概念非常熟悉。
但显然，乌克兰是纳粹。
Putin's Russia needs Lebensraum. A concept Ukraine is familiiar with from bitter experience.
But apparently Ukraine are the nazis.
普京的俄罗斯需要“生活空间”。乌克兰在痛苦的经历中对这个概念非常熟悉。
但显然，乌克兰是纳粹。
YT14 shagrock
Russia has lots of Lebensraum in Siberia. But they always have a problem of moving population there. Otherwise, their capital would have been in Tomsk for strategic reasons. Baltics and Novorossiya are primarily interesting for their access to the Baltic and Black seas. Have always been, since the times of Peter I and Catherine II.
俄罗斯在西伯利亚拥有大量的土地。但他们总是有一个问题，那就是人口的迁移。否则，出于战略考虑，他们的首都就会在托木斯克。波罗的海和新俄罗斯主要是由于其通往波罗的海和黑海的通道而受到关注。自彼得一世和凯瑟琳二世时代以来，一直如此。
Russia has lots of Lebensraum in Siberia. But they always have a problem of moving population there. Otherwise, their capital would have been in Tomsk for strategic reasons. Baltics and Novorossiya are primarily interesting for their access to the Baltic and Black seas. Have always been, since the times of Peter I and Catherine II.
俄罗斯在西伯利亚拥有大量的土地。但他们总是有一个问题，那就是人口的迁移。否则，出于战略考虑，他们的首都就会在托木斯克。波罗的海和新俄罗斯主要是由于其通往波罗的海和黑海的通道而受到关注。自彼得一世和凯瑟琳二世时代以来，一直如此。
Red Death
"the liberal elite of Ukraine" - I strongly disagree, the current elite of Ukraine is made up from rabid chauvinists and/or corrupt oligarch and their pawns who fear being swallowed up by the even more wealthier and influential Russian oligarchs. The true western-style liberals in Ukraine are probably not even present, those that pretend to be them do so just in order to get some money out of the EU's pockets.
The de-Russification campaign was not started now, it was under way at least from 2014, now it just switched to a higher gear. School curricula have been changed back then, Russian literature and language was all but banned in public schools. This was one of the reasons (toghether with open western/US meddling) the Russian elites in Moscow started to see Ukraine as a threat to their geopolitical sphere of influence and when the talks with the US (after all you don't talk to the pawns, you talk to their masters) in early 2022 failed they decided to act.
“乌克兰的自由主义精英”——我坚决不同意，目前乌克兰的精英是由狂热的沙文主义者和腐败的寡头及其走狗组成的，他们害怕被更富有和更有影响力的俄罗斯寡头吞噬掉。乌克兰真正的西式自由主义者可能根本不存在，那些假装是自由主义者的人只是为了从欧盟的口袋里捞点钱。
去俄罗斯化的运动不是现在才开始的，它至少从2014年就开始了，现在只是换成了更高的档次。那时学校的课程已经改变，俄罗斯文学和语言在公立学校几乎被禁止。这也是莫斯科的俄罗斯精英们开始将乌克兰视为其地缘政治势力范围的威胁的原因之一（再加上西方和美国的公开干涉），当2022年初与美国的会谈（毕竟你不和棋子说话，你只和他们的主人说话）失败后，他们决定采取行动。
"the liberal elite of Ukraine" - I strongly disagree, the current elite of Ukraine is made up from rabid chauvinists and/or corrupt oligarch and their pawns who fear being swallowed up by the even more wealthier and influential Russian oligarchs. The true western-style liberals in Ukraine are probably not even present, those that pretend to be them do so just in order to get some money out of the EU's pockets.
The de-Russification campaign was not started now, it was under way at least from 2014, now it just switched to a higher gear. School curricula have been changed back then, Russian literature and language was all but banned in public schools. This was one of the reasons (toghether with open western/US meddling) the Russian elites in Moscow started to see Ukraine as a threat to their geopolitical sphere of influence and when the talks with the US (after all you don't talk to the pawns, you talk to their masters) in early 2022 failed they decided to act.
“乌克兰的自由主义精英”——我坚决不同意，目前乌克兰的精英是由狂热的沙文主义者和腐败的寡头及其走狗组成的，他们害怕被更富有和更有影响力的俄罗斯寡头吞噬掉。乌克兰真正的西式自由主义者可能根本不存在，那些假装是自由主义者的人只是为了从欧盟的口袋里捞点钱。
去俄罗斯化的运动不是现在才开始的，它至少从2014年就开始了，现在只是换成了更高的档次。那时学校的课程已经改变，俄罗斯文学和语言在公立学校几乎被禁止。这也是莫斯科的俄罗斯精英们开始将乌克兰视为其地缘政治势力范围的威胁的原因之一（再加上西方和美国的公开干涉），当2022年初与美国的会谈（毕竟你不和棋子说话，你只和他们的主人说话）失败后，他们决定采取行动。
maralexa@inbox.ru Red Death
De-Russification started way back in the mid-fifties of XX century when former OUN-UPA Bandera and Galizien SS Division members were granted amnesty and returned home. They were able to get to the highest ranks of Ukranian hierarchy, deceased former President Leonid Krawczuk is a brilliant example.
去俄罗斯化早在20世纪50年代中期就开始了，当时班德拉和党卫队第14师的成员获得了大赦并返回了家乡。他们能够进入乌克兰的最高层，已故的前总统列昂尼德·克劳祖克就是一个很好的例子。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
De-Russification started way back in the mid-fifties of XX century when former OUN-UPA Bandera and Galizien SS Division members were granted amnesty and returned home. They were able to get to the highest ranks of Ukranian hierarchy, deceased former President Leonid Krawczuk is a brilliant example.
去俄罗斯化早在20世纪50年代中期就开始了，当时班德拉和党卫队第14师的成员获得了大赦并返回了家乡。他们能够进入乌克兰的最高层，已故的前总统列昂尼德·克劳祖克就是一个很好的例子。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Kessler
The Western Liberalism has done it to our history, complete re-writing & fabrication. We think Dark Ages were actually dark and ignorant, Church was prosecuting scientists and witches, slavery was US/European institution, scientific progress occured in Universites through peer reviewed research papers, etc, etc.
西方自由主义对我们的历史做了这种事，它完全是重写和捏造。我们认为黑暗时代实际上是黑暗和无知的，教会正在起诉科学家和女巫，奴隶制是美国和欧洲的制度，科学进步通过同行评审的研究论文发生在大学之中，等等。
The Western Liberalism has done it to our history, complete re-writing & fabrication. We think Dark Ages were actually dark and ignorant, Church was prosecuting scientists and witches, slavery was US/European institution, scientific progress occured in Universites through peer reviewed research papers, etc, etc.
西方自由主义对我们的历史做了这种事，它完全是重写和捏造。我们认为黑暗时代实际上是黑暗和无知的，教会正在起诉科学家和女巫，奴隶制是美国和欧洲的制度，科学进步通过同行评审的研究论文发生在大学之中，等等。
Civis Romanus Sum Kessler
Dark Ages (roughly 500-1000) and High Middle Ages (1000-1400) are not really the same thing. The latter was a much more creative period than the former.
Slavery was a US/European institution, but plenty of other places had it too.
黑暗时代（大约500-1000年）和中世纪（1000-1400年）并不是真正意义上的一回事。后者是一个比前者更有创造力的时期。
奴隶制是美国和欧洲的一种制度，但其他地方也有很多。
Dark Ages (roughly 500-1000) and High Middle Ages (1000-1400) are not really the same thing. The latter was a much more creative period than the former.
Slavery was a US/European institution, but plenty of other places had it too.
黑暗时代（大约500-1000年）和中世纪（1000-1400年）并不是真正意义上的一回事。后者是一个比前者更有创造力的时期。
奴隶制是美国和欧洲的一种制度，但其他地方也有很多。
Fazal Majid
The history of Athens, Rome and London *is* the history of America. That does not give us the right to bomb Greece, Italy and the UK to smithereens, or to meddle in their affairs as we have done in both Greece (1967-1974 coup of the colonels and ensuing junta) and Italy (P2 cell).
雅典、罗马和伦敦的历史就是美国的历史。这并不意味着我们有权利把希腊、意大利和英国炸成碎片，或者像我们在希腊（1967-1974年的上校政变和随后的军政府）和意大利那样干涉他们的事务。
The history of Athens, Rome and London *is* the history of America. That does not give us the right to bomb Greece, Italy and the UK to smithereens, or to meddle in their affairs as we have done in both Greece (1967-1974 coup of the colonels and ensuing junta) and Italy (P2 cell).
雅典、罗马和伦敦的历史就是美国的历史。这并不意味着我们有权利把希腊、意大利和英国炸成碎片，或者像我们在希腊（1967-1974年的上校政变和随后的军政府）和意大利那样干涉他们的事务。
Mike Fazal Majid
I’ve always thought King Constantine of the Hellenes was hard done by.
我一直认为希腊人的君士坦丁堡国王是很难得的。
I’ve always thought King Constantine of the Hellenes was hard done by.
我一直认为希腊人的君士坦丁堡国王是很难得的。
Miguel Cervantes
On the contrary. "De-Russification" will advance in leaps and bounds as long as the bloody invasion continues. There is nothing we can do about it. Better to write about something else.
恰恰相反。只要血腥入侵继续下去，“去俄罗斯化”的进程就会突飞猛进。我们对此无能为力。还是写点别的吧。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
On the contrary. "De-Russification" will advance in leaps and bounds as long as the bloody invasion continues. There is nothing we can do about it. Better to write about something else.
恰恰相反。只要血腥入侵继续下去，“去俄罗斯化”的进程就会突飞猛进。我们对此无能为力。还是写点别的吧。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Woland
Am I ever glad to live in a country without foundational myths. No centuries-old battles to glorify, no lost Gilded Age, no imperialism which made us great, no revanchism when we were made small again. No oppressors to shake off, no ungrateful neighbours shaking us off. Ask a hundred people here on the street about the revolution that gave us our independence, and 95 wouldn't even know its name.
It's great. I can honestly recommend it to everyone.
我很高兴能生活在一个没有奠基神话的国家。没有几百年前的战役可供颂扬，没有失去的黄金时代，没有使我们变得伟大的帝国主义，没有使我们再次变得渺小的民族主义。没有压迫者要甩掉，没有忘恩负义的邻居要甩掉我们。在大街上问一百个人关于给我们带来独立的革命，95个人甚至都不知道它的名字。
这很好。我可以真诚地向大家推荐它。
Am I ever glad to live in a country without foundational myths. No centuries-old battles to glorify, no lost Gilded Age, no imperialism which made us great, no revanchism when we were made small again. No oppressors to shake off, no ungrateful neighbours shaking us off. Ask a hundred people here on the street about the revolution that gave us our independence, and 95 wouldn't even know its name.
It's great. I can honestly recommend it to everyone.
我很高兴能生活在一个没有奠基神话的国家。没有几百年前的战役可供颂扬，没有失去的黄金时代，没有使我们变得伟大的帝国主义，没有使我们再次变得渺小的民族主义。没有压迫者要甩掉，没有忘恩负义的邻居要甩掉我们。在大街上问一百个人关于给我们带来独立的革命，95个人甚至都不知道它的名字。
这很好。我可以真诚地向大家推荐它。
Chris Woland
Andorra?
是安道尔吗？
Andorra?
是安道尔吗？
Woland Chris
Close, you're only a France off.
接近了，你只差一个法国。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Close, you're only a France off.
接近了，你只差一个法国。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Jim Thms Woland
Luxembourg, then?
是卢森堡，然后呢？
Luxembourg, then?
是卢森堡，然后呢？
Woland Jim Thms
Just the tiniest bit to the Northwest.
就在西北方向的犄角旮旯里。
Just the tiniest bit to the Northwest.
就在西北方向的犄角旮旯里。
Miguel Cervantes longlance
Soviet tradition?
苏联传统？
Soviet tradition?
苏联传统？
maralexa@inbox.ru Miguel Cervantes
But you must admit that without Russia the whole Europe would be Third Reich now!
但你必须承认，如果没有俄罗斯，现在整个欧洲都属于第三帝国了！
But you must admit that without Russia the whole Europe would be Third Reich now!
但你必须承认，如果没有俄罗斯，现在整个欧洲都属于第三帝国了！
Miguel Cervantes maralexa@inbox.ru
Without Russia, and the Europeans , and the US. If the Soviet unx alone could have got rid of its former allies the Nazis is very debatable. Nor whether it would even have tried, if its former Nazi allies had not attacked it first. What we do know is that half of Europe had to live the communist nightmare for half a century. What I think is that any memory of the defeat of the Nazis that involves glorifying the Soviet Regime is now getting a bit sick. The Ukrainians have the right idea on this issue.
没有俄罗斯，没有欧洲人，也没有美国。苏联是否能独自摆脱其前盟友纳粹，这一点非常值得商榷。如果它的前纳粹盟友没有首先攻击它，它是否甚至会尝试这么做。我们所知道的是，半个欧洲不得不在半个世纪的时间里生活在共产主义的o梦中。我认为，任何涉及美化苏维埃政权击败纳粹的记忆，现在都变得有点恶心。在这个问题上，乌克兰人的想法是正确的。
Without Russia, and the Europeans , and the US. If the Soviet unx alone could have got rid of its former allies the Nazis is very debatable. Nor whether it would even have tried, if its former Nazi allies had not attacked it first. What we do know is that half of Europe had to live the communist nightmare for half a century. What I think is that any memory of the defeat of the Nazis that involves glorifying the Soviet Regime is now getting a bit sick. The Ukrainians have the right idea on this issue.
没有俄罗斯，没有欧洲人，也没有美国。苏联是否能独自摆脱其前盟友纳粹，这一点非常值得商榷。如果它的前纳粹盟友没有首先攻击它，它是否甚至会尝试这么做。我们所知道的是，半个欧洲不得不在半个世纪的时间里生活在共产主义的o梦中。我认为，任何涉及美化苏维埃政权击败纳粹的记忆，现在都变得有点恶心。在这个问题上，乌克兰人的想法是正确的。
Slenderman2008 longlance
Sure, a tradition of brutal tyranny and killing civilians.
当然，残酷的暴政和杀害平民的传统。
Sure, a tradition of brutal tyranny and killing civilians.
当然，残酷的暴政和杀害平民的传统。
Karen VLK*
English is a mix of French and German. The US is much younger than England. Does that mean English isn’t a language and the US isn’t a nation?
英语是法语和德语的混合体。美国比英国年轻得多。这是否意味着英语不是一种语言，美国不是一个国家？
English is a mix of French and German. The US is much younger than England. Does that mean English isn’t a language and the US isn’t a nation?
英语是法语和德语的混合体。美国比英国年轻得多。这是否意味着英语不是一种语言，美国不是一个国家？
maralexa@inbox.ru Karen
You're right! But no one with sane mind tries to monger war between US and UK, as well as between France and Germany. But we can see constant efforts to ignite war between Russia and former USSR republics. It's a long story dating way back centuries! Ukrainian is much more akin to Russian than English to French.
你说的很对! 但没有一个头脑清醒的人试图在美国和英国以及法国和德国之间制造战争。但我们可以看到，俄罗斯和前苏联各共和国之间一直在努力挑起战争。这是个漫长的故事，可以追溯到几个世纪以前！乌克兰语与俄语的关系比英语与法语的关系要近得多。
You're right! But no one with sane mind tries to monger war between US and UK, as well as between France and Germany. But we can see constant efforts to ignite war between Russia and former USSR republics. It's a long story dating way back centuries! Ukrainian is much more akin to Russian than English to French.
你说的很对! 但没有一个头脑清醒的人试图在美国和英国以及法国和德国之间制造战争。但我们可以看到，俄罗斯和前苏联各共和国之间一直在努力挑起战争。这是个漫长的故事，可以追溯到几个世纪以前！乌克兰语与俄语的关系比英语与法语的关系要近得多。
Ind S Wichman
Nikolai Gogol was "Ukrainian." He's a lot better novelist than the others mentioned. Ukraine was the birthplace of modern Russia, but after that birth the Russians moved on. Time will tell what happens with the current situation. Perhaps the West's (NATO, etc.) approach should be to not make a bad situation worse. Good luck with that, however, given the current leadership and perpetual neocon aggression.
果戈里是“乌克兰人”。他是一个比上述其他人好得多的小说家。乌克兰是现代俄罗斯的诞生地，但在诞生之后，俄罗斯人就转移去其他地方了。时间会告诉我们目前的情况会怎样。也许西方（北约等）的做法应该是不要让糟糕的局势雪上加霜。然而，鉴于目前的领导层和新政客的长期侵略政策，祝你们好运。
Nikolai Gogol was "Ukrainian." He's a lot better novelist than the others mentioned. Ukraine was the birthplace of modern Russia, but after that birth the Russians moved on. Time will tell what happens with the current situation. Perhaps the West's (NATO, etc.) approach should be to not make a bad situation worse. Good luck with that, however, given the current leadership and perpetual neocon aggression.
果戈里是“乌克兰人”。他是一个比上述其他人好得多的小说家。乌克兰是现代俄罗斯的诞生地，但在诞生之后，俄罗斯人就转移去其他地方了。时间会告诉我们目前的情况会怎样。也许西方（北约等）的做法应该是不要让糟糕的局势雪上加霜。然而，鉴于目前的领导层和新政客的长期侵略政策，祝你们好运。
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maralexa@inbox.ru Ind S Wichman
Gogol never wrote a single line in Ukranian. He obviously had that Malorossian flavour, but not Ukranian.
果戈理从未用乌克兰语写过一句话。他显然有那种小俄罗斯的味道，但不是乌克兰语。
maralexa@inbox.ru Ind S Wichman
Gogol never wrote a single line in Ukranian. He obviously had that Malorossian flavour, but not Ukranian.
果戈理从未用乌克兰语写过一句话。他显然有那种小俄罗斯的味道，但不是乌克兰语。
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