quora讨论：土耳其战斗机“KAAN”真的是第5代吗？
正文翻译
Is the Turkish fighter jet 'KAAN' really the 5th generation?
土耳其战斗机“KAAN”真的是第5代吗？
Mehmet Emin Engineer Upvoted by Colin Guest, lives in Turkey (1988-present) 1y
穆罕默德·埃明 工程师 获科林·格斯特（1988年至今居住于土耳其）
In order to answer this question, it is necessary to understand Türkiye's aircraft production ability and capacity.
Contrary to popular belief, Türkiye's aviation adventure goes back a long way. Nu.D 36 aircraft ordered by the Netherlands in 1936 and Thk-5 aircraft exported to Denmark are examples of these.
Turkish defense industry has been developing rapidly in recent years. Türkiye produces its own tanks, planes, jets, helicopters and the engines of these vehicles.
So, despite all this, does the Turkish defense industry have the ability to produce a real 5th generation fighter jet?
The biggest obstacle to making a jet is undoubtedly making a its engine. The biggest challenge in making a jet engine is making single crystal turbine blades. TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries) CEO Temel Kotil announced that Türkiye achieved this.
As it is known, helicopter engines are actually jet engines. Türkiye has successfully flown using its own production engines in its own Gokbey helicopter.
There are various types of jet engines produced by Türkiye.
Türkiye produces aircraft parts for Boeing and Airbus companies. It is one of the manufacturers of F-35 and hundreds of F-16 were produced in Türkiye.
要回答这个问题，有必要了解土耳其的飞机生产能力。与普遍看法相反，土耳其的航空探索历史十分悠久。1936年荷兰订购的Nu.D 36飞机以及出口到丹麦的Thk-5飞机就是例证。近年来，土耳其国防工业发展迅速，能够自主生产坦克、固定翼飞机、喷气式战斗机、直升机以及这些装备的发动机。那么，尽管取得了这些成就，土耳其国防工业是否有能力生产出真正的第五代战斗机呢？制造喷气式战斗机最大的障碍无疑是发动机制造，而制造喷气发动机的最大挑战在于单晶涡轮叶片的生产。土耳其航空航天工业公司（TAI）首席执行官泰梅尔·科蒂尔宣布，土耳其已成功攻克这一难题。众所周知，直升机发动机本质上也是喷气发动机，土耳其的“戈克贝伊”直升机已成功使用自主生产的发动机实现飞行。土耳其生产的喷气发动机种类多样，还为波音和空客公司生产飞机零部件，同时也是F-35战斗机的制造商之一，并且已在本国生产了数百架F-16战斗机。
In addition, Türkiye has its own light attack and training aircraft called Hurjet.
In Kaan, almost all parts and systems such as canopy, landing gear, avionic systems, all weapon systems, AESA radar are produced domestically. Only the ejection seat and engines were imported. TAI CEO Temel Kotil said today that the engines of the first aircraft to be delivered to the Turkish Armed Forces will be domestically produced and the aircraft will be delivered in 2028 at the latest. This date coincides with a date even earlier than the date on which the F-35s, which were not given to Türkiye due to a betrayal by the USA and announced to be given to Greece, will be delivered to Greece.
此外，土耳其拥有自主研发的“胡尔捷特”轻型攻击机和教练机。在“KAAN”战斗机上，座舱盖、起落架、航空电子系统、所有武器系统、有源相控阵（AESA）雷达等几乎所有零部件和系统均实现国产化，仅弹射座椅和发动机为进口。土耳其航空航天工业公司首席执行官泰梅尔·科蒂尔近日表示，首批交付给土耳其武装部队的“KAAN”战斗机，其发动机将实现国产化，且该机型最迟将于2028年交付。这一交付时间甚至早于美国因背信弃义未交付给土耳其、转而宣布要交付给希腊的F-35战斗机的预计交付时间。
The fact that Türkiye is NATO's second largest army, that it uses NATO weapon systems, that it produces in accordance with NATO standards, and that it is a supplier of parts and weapon systems to NATO countries proves that it is a respected arms manufacturer.
So, Türkiye has become the 4th country in the world that can produce 5th generation jet aircraft, after the USA, Russia and China.
土耳其作为北约第二大军队，不仅使用北约武器系统、按北约标准进行生产，还是北约国家的零部件和武器系统供应商，这些事实都证明它是一家受尊重的武器制造商。因此，土耳其已成为继美国、俄罗斯和中国之后，全球第四个有能力生产第五代喷气式战斗机的国家。
Jamie Wang Born and raised in China, had lived in Swiss and Germany Upvoted by Paul Tomblin, Licensed private pilot. PP-ASEL-IA with high performance and complex endorsements. and David Tussey, 20 yrs as a US Navy fighter pilot.
王 Jamie 在中国出生长大，曾在瑞士和德国生活 获保罗·汤布林（持有私人飞行员执照，拥有高性能和复杂机型驾驶认证的PP-ASEL-IA飞行员）与戴维·塔西（拥有20年美国海军战斗机飞行员服役经历）
No it’s not.
It only looks like one.
Very simple:
See the intake (red line) and the gap between the intake and body?
It's called Caret inlet.
It's to separate the slower speed air of the boundary layer from entering the engine, which will cause the engine to surge.
Caret inlet was OK for jet fighters, until the 5th gen fighters need stealth ability.
The caret inlet contributes 89.8% of F-22’s front radar cross section.
I.E. around 90% of the size of an F-22 shown on radar is because of the inlet.
On F-35, they used a new design called diverterless supersonic inlet.
It’s simpler and lighter, and it makes the jet less obvious on radar.
F-22 was designed before the manufacturer obtain the ability to draw the correct shape of a DSI, and it would cause the body to be redesigned if they want to modify F-22.
So US military leave the F-22s as they are.
But it’s kind of a standard for 5th gen stealth fighter now:
The front RCS of F-35 is 0.0015 square meters.
For J-20, it’s 0.001 to 0.005 square meters. J-20 at its worst is 3 times big on radar comparing to F-35, and usually there is no significant difference if the RCS is within 10 times.
不是的，它只是看起来像第五代战斗机而已。
道理很简单：看到那个进气道（红线标注处）以及进气道与机身之间的缝隙了吗？这被称为“尖劈式进气道”（Caret inlet），其作用是阻止边界层内流速较慢的空气进入发动机，因为这些空气会导致发动机喘振。对于普通喷气式战斗机来说，尖劈式进气道是可行的，但到了需要具备隐身能力的第五代战斗机时代，这种设计就不行了。F-22战斗机前部雷达反射截面（RCS）的89.8%都来自于其尖劈式进气道，也就是说，F-22在雷达上显示的信号大小中，约90%都是由进气道造成的。而F-35采用了一种名为“无附面层隔道超音速进气道”（DSI）的新设计，这种设计更简单、更轻便，能让战斗机在雷达上的信号更不明显。F-22的设计早于制造商掌握DSI进气道正确外形设计技术的时间，如果要对F-22的进气道进行改造，就需要重新设计机身，因此美国军方决定不对F-22进行改动。但如今，无附面层隔道超音速进气道已成为第五代隐身战斗机的一种标配。F-35的前部雷达反射截面为0.0015平方米，歼-20的前部雷达反射截面则在0.001至0.005平方米之间。歼-20最差情况下的雷达反射截面是F-35的3倍，而通常来说，只要雷达反射截面差距在10倍以内，就不会有显著差异。
The estimation of KAAN’s front RCS is between 6.7 to 66 times of F-35, that’s 0.01 to 0.99 square meter. That’s better than F-16’s 0.1 to 1.5, but not significantly better than Rafale’s 0.06+/-0.02.
So from the outside, it’s at the best a 4.5 gen.
据估算，“KAAN”的前部雷达反射截面是F-35的6.7至66倍，即0.01至0.99平方米。这一数据虽然优于F-16的0.1至1.5平方米，但并不比“阵风”战斗机的0.06±0.02平方米有显著优势。因此，仅从外观设计来看，“KAAN”充其量只能算作4.5代战斗机。
Plus, I highly doubt from where should Turkey to purchase the avionics and engines…
Turkey claimed that it will develop a magical engine with 16 tons of thrust… judging by its previous experience being only 4.5 tons… I can only wish for a good luck.
此外，我非常怀疑土耳其能从哪里采购到适配的航空电子设备和发动机……土耳其声称将研发一款推力达16吨的高性能发动机，但从其之前最高仅能研发推力4.5吨发动机的经验来看，我只能祝它好运。
Michael X Knows Chinese Upvoted by Adrian Kruger, Qualified pilot with a PPL, student of all things Aviation.
迈克尔·X 懂中文 获阿德里安·克鲁格（持有私人飞行员执照的合格飞行员，航空领域全能学习者）
We don't know yet. The most challenging part for building a 5th gen, isn't how stealthy the shape is. The external shape is the easiest part, because it can be designed on a computer and run countless RCS simulations.
目前还无法确定。制造第五代战斗机最具挑战性的部分并非外形的隐身设计，外形设计反而是最容易的环节，因为可以通过计算机进行设计，并开展无数次雷达反射截面模拟测试。
The most challenging part is that, the production method changed. They can not be built with the same tools and methods used building a 4th gen. A lot of parts had to be forged under extreme pressure, or using very complex 3D printed structure, otherwise the fighter jet is going to flex, resulting in internal weapon bay couldn't open under extreme load. Only very few countries have those tools, they all built by themselves, and won't be exported.
最困难的在于生产方式的变革——第五代战斗机无法采用与第四代战斗机相同的工具和制造方法来生产。其许多零部件需要在极端压力下锻造，或是采用极为复杂的3D打印结构，否则战斗机在承受极端载荷时会发生形变，导致内置武器舱无法打开。拥有这类制造工具的国家寥寥无几，而且这些工具均为各国自主研发，不会对外出口。
It needs extremely large carbon fiber weaving machines for those wings, yet had to be designed by yourself. Good luck buying them.
The aircraft skin has to be produced in extreme large pieces and avoiding rivets as much as possible, even the riveting tool had to be re-designed. Building a production line for 5th gen aircraft are way more challenging than building the aircraft itself.
Let me stop here, skipping radar, engine, datalix...etc, but i hope people get the idea. Developing a 5th gen will easily cost hundreds of billions, making buying F35 from the US looks like a very cheap option.
So for KAAN, we don't know yet.
制造第五代战斗机的机翼需要超大型碳纤维编织机，而这类设备也必须自主设计，想通过采购获得难度极大。此外，机身蒙皮需要采用超大尺寸的整体构件制造，尽可能减少铆钉的使用，甚至连铆接工具都需要重新设计。建立一条第五代战斗机生产线的难度，远大于研发战斗机本身。这里我就不再赘述雷达、发动机、数据链等其他方面了，但希望大家能明白其中的关键：研发一款第五代战斗机很容易就会耗费数千亿美元，相比之下，从美国购买F-35反而成了非常便宜的选择。因此，对于“KAAN”是否属于真正的第五代战斗机，目前还无法给出定论。
Rodra Hascaryo Studied Aerospace and Aeronautical Engineering at University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Upvoted by Tunacan Gulec, lives in Turkey (1987-present) and Adrian Kruger, Qualified pilot with a PPL, student of all things Aviation. 1y
罗德拉·哈斯卡约 曾在伊利诺伊大学厄巴纳-香槟分校攻读航空航天工程专业 获图纳坎·古莱克（1987年至今居住于土耳其）与阿德里安·克鲁格（持有私人飞行员执照的合格飞行员，航空领域全能学习者）
First of all, to me, “5th generation” means “it’s stealthy”. Any other advanced features like data lix or AESA radar can be integrated to older jets, but “true” stealth like the F-22 and F-35 (as opposed to semi-stealthy features like those in the Rafale or Hornet) has to be designed from the start.
Looking at some info available (and the fact that Turkey was once a partner in the F-35 program), the claim seems pretty credible.
首先，在我看来，“第五代战斗机”的核心标志就是“具备隐身能力”。数据链、有源相控阵雷达等其他先进功能，都可以集成到较老旧的机型上，但像F-22和F-35那样的“真正隐身能力”（而非“阵风”或“大黄蜂”战斗机所具备的半隐身特性），必须从设计之初就进行整体规划。结合现有信息（以及土耳其曾是F-35项目合作伙伴这一事实）来看，土耳其声称“KAAN”是第五代战斗机的说法，似乎具有较高的可信度。
It looks like a cross between the F-35 and F-22. The mockups showed internal weapon bays on the sides, something non-negotiable if you want a stealthy airplane because those pylons and weapons can show up on radar. It’s roughly the same size as the F-22 (actually slightly bigger) although it weighs closer to the F-35, so it definitely can carry weapons internally.
“KAAN”的外形看起来像是F-35和F-22的结合体，其模型显示机身侧面设有内置武器舱——对于隐身战斗机而言，内置武器舱是必不可少的设计，因为外挂架和外挂武器会在雷达上产生明显信号。“KAAN”的尺寸与F-22大致相当（实际上略大一些），但重量更接近F-35，因此完全具备内置武器挂载能力。
Right now, their first models are going to use the same engines as the F-16 but they are developing new ones in cooperation with Rolls-Royce. Since engines contributes to stealth, it might mean that it might not as stealthy as the F-35, but it’s better than the likes of F-16.
As for stealth coating, the same facility that was commissioned to make F-35 fuselages are now being used to make it for this airplane, so chances are, they know what they’re doing and will probably deliver.
So maybe Turkey is going to be the third country to make stealth fighter jets on their own after US and China (Russia’s Su-57 doesn’t count).
目前，“KAAN”的首批原型机将采用与F-16相同的发动机，但土耳其正与劳斯莱斯公司合作研发新型发动机。由于发动机性能也会影响隐身效果，这意味着“KAAN”的隐身能力可能不及F-35，但肯定优于F-16这类机型。在隐身涂层方面，此前负责生产F-35机身的工厂如今已开始为“KAAN”制造相关部件
因此土耳其很可能掌握了隐身涂层的相关技术，并且有望顺利应用到“KAAN”上。如此看来，土耳其或许将成为继美国和中国之后，第三个能够自主研发隐身战斗机的国家（俄罗斯的苏-57不算在内）。
BORIS Business Owner Investor at Luxury Property Developments 1y
鲍里斯 豪华房地产开发领域企业主、投资者
As a Russian Aerospace Engineer with Phd degree from caltech I can definetely say that Turks are in good path because without help of BAE it would be just a daydream even leading manufacturers like safran rolls royce etc. Struggle due to combined obstacles e.g. Programme cost budget constraints Scarcity of key resources and High R&D costs Comonality and adaptability of existing and new markets barrier entry Politics etc. etc. You may add more.
作为一名拥有加州理工学院博士学位的俄罗斯航空航天工程师，我可以明确地说，土耳其在研发“KAAN”的道路上进展顺利，但如果没有英国宇航系统公司（BAE）的帮助，这一切都将是白日梦。即便像赛峰、劳斯莱斯等顶尖制造商，也会因各种综合障碍而举步维艰，比如项目成本超支、预算受限、关键资源稀缺、研发成本高昂、现有及新兴市场的通用性与适应性问题、市场准入壁垒以及政治因素等等，类似的障碍还有很多。
Also Note that F16 multirole is currently cheapest(you can check the comparsion data its awailable I dunno exactly)to Operate fighter jet with high commonality that's why Turks and Greeks (btw Greece has the biggest fleet of F16 in the World) its for them plausible and well defined strategy.
Another important issue is the supposed price I read that it nominal unit price will be 100mil USD Its too much and its definetely failed Business like F35.
另外需要注意的是，F-16多用途战斗机是目前运营成本最低的机型之一（具体数据可查询相关对比资料，我记不太准确了），而且零部件通用性高。这也是土耳其和希腊（顺便提一句，希腊拥有全球规模最大的F-16机群）选择装备该机型的合理且明确的战略考量。
另一个重要问题是“KAAN”的预期价格，我了解到其名义单价将达到1亿美元，这个价格过高，其商业前景必然会像F-35一样惨淡。
In comparison such newly entrant in these business Turkey therefore it has quite low credibility,even if she is NATO Member we have to look from a Marketing perspective if another Manufacturer let say USA or Europe offer cheaper price than the given buyer will do its best to purchase since as we all know politics unfortunately play higher roles than a technology or trade combined all together therefore it seems to be only for own use and non export 。
相比之下，土耳其作为航空制造领域的新入局者，可信度相当低。即便它是北约成员国，从市场营销的角度来看，如果其他制造商（比如美国或欧洲的厂商）能提供更低的价格，采购方肯定会优先选择购买。因为我们都知道，不幸的是，政治因素的影响力远超技术或贸易本身。因此，“KAAN”似乎很可能仅用于土耳其本国军方，不具备出口潜力。
intended again its highly expensive job for such Economically miserable country like Turkey for example we had Summer Residency as you know we Russians like so much unfortunately but we choose not to go to Turkey since its extremely expensive in comparison to make Holiday in Spain Italy(we have German Citizenship)or another place to take holiday after long exhausting work and winter season let alone live in this Country.
而对于土耳其这样经济状况糟糕的国家来说，研发这款战斗机无疑是一项代价极高的工程。举个例子，众所周知，我们俄罗斯人原本非常喜欢去土耳其度过暑期，但今年我们家却选择不去了，因为相比之下，去西班牙、意大利度假（我们持有德国公民身份）或其他地方放松要便宜得多——毕竟经过漫长繁忙的工作和寒冬，我们需要的是度假，更不用说在土耳其长期生活了。
I gave that small example from my family because I As a Russian Businessman who is over 40 married with kids and loads of International experience both life work and Education and as Scholar Educator.
我之所以举这个家庭中的小例子，是因为我作为一名40多岁、已婚有孩的俄罗斯商人，在生活、工作、教育等方面都拥有丰富的国际经验，同时也是一名学者和教育工作者。
Economically collapsed country such as Turkey tries it best to show up its military power via catapulting itsself from nothing to gen 5 fighter jet level nothing in our World is impossible but Economically miserable country like Turkey does exactly the same mistakes of our Soviet unx people need salaries,availability of products purchasing power and a possibility a path for better life instead of show people need at the first glance Soviet unx made huge mistakes by doing so and failed due to inertness of aforementioned issues and Turks exactly trying nowadays doing the same mistake.
像土耳其这样经济濒临崩溃的国家，试图通过跨越式发展，从几乎没有基础的状态直接迈向第五代战斗机研发水平，以此彰显其军事实力。虽然世界上没有绝对不可能的事情，但土耳其这种经济困窘的国家，正在重蹈苏联的覆辙。民众首先需要的是薪水、充足的商品供应、购买力以及通往更好生活的途径，而非空洞的“展示”。苏联当年正是因为忽视了这些民生需求，犯下了严重错误，最终因上述问题积重难返而解体。如今，土耳其正在犯同样的错误。
1 2 Lived in Air Headquarters, Islamabad, Pakistan (2021–2023) 1y
1 2 2021-2023年居住于巴基斯坦伊斯兰堡空军总部
The first block of KAAN will not be a 5th gen aircraft but rather a advanced 4.5 gen aircraft. Definitely more advanced than Rafales and Eurofighters.
The 5th gen block of KAAN will be KAAN Blk1. This block will have internal weapons bay hence making it a true 5th gen aircraft. This aircraft will be similar to F-35s. This block will have sensor fusion, manned/unmanned teaming, advanced HMDs, supercruse and many more making it a feared opponent in the battlefield.
“KAAN”战斗机的首个批次（Block 0）并非第五代战斗机，而是一款先进的4.5代战斗机，但肯定比“阵风”和“台风”战斗机更先进。“KAAN”的第五代机型批次将是“KAAN Blk1”，该批次机型将配备内置武器舱，因此堪称真正的第五代战斗机，性能与F-35相近。此外，“KAAN Blk1”还将具备传感器融合、有人-无人协同作战、先进头盔显示系统、超音速巡航等多种先进功能，使其成为战场上令人生畏的对手。
Jim Walt 1y
吉姆·沃尔特
lets assume it is not let say its 4.5++generation with some stealth characters, even then , it is an paramount technical and industrial Achievement for the Turks , especially if they manage to design and build their own jet engine , form history we can say the design and development process will not be easy and smooth ,but unlike the MBT altay program the Turks have huge experience in building f16 , in fact at the end if its turn out to be 4 gen at f16 level it is still an achievement that no other regional and view global powers can say they have done it or they can doit , so go Turkey…
即便我们假设它不是第五代战斗机，比如称其为具备部分隐身特性的4.5++代战斗机，对于土耳其而言，这依然是一项极其重大的技术和工业成就，尤其是如果他们能成功自主设计并制造出喷气发动机的话。从历史经验来看，战斗机的设计和研发过程绝非一帆风顺，但与“阿尔泰”主战坦克项目不同，土耳其在制造F-16战斗机方面拥有丰富的经验。事实上，即便最终这款机型仅达到F-16水平的第四代战斗机标准，这仍然是一项诸多地区性力量乃至部分全球性力量都无法企及或宣称能够实现的成就，所以，土耳其加油……
Peter Don Konics II Former Officer/Fighter Pilot at The United States of America (1966–1972) 1y
彼得·唐·科尼克斯二世 美国前军官/战斗机飞行员（1966-1972年）
ME! Who cares, Mehmet!? It is not the machine/generation that is the most important; it is the PILOT/AIRCREW/WEAPONS OPERATORS! And where they come from and how they are raised. Societies have built-in cultural weaknesses and strengths in everything they do/build/use! My generation was crude, rude, and profane. Yet, gentlemen officers, ‘” seeking to be the best they could be” from different “walks of life.” Then, the “not-so-United States of America” had the advantage in attitude and weapons when actual men and women were predominant within their societal roles. Thus, combining natural male aggression/mechanical aptitude and female birthing, supporting, protecting, and reminding both of the “reasons why” of living a life worth living and protecting it! When I was in basic pilot training during the 1960s, Saudi princes were being trained as pilots at our base. During the winter, it was usual to see ice forming on the leading edge of our T-38’s wings when climbing out during take-off. It was only innocuous rime ice that evaporated as we passed through ten thousand feet. But one day, a Saudi pilot panicked at the sight of the ice on his wings and ejected himself and his “What the…!” shouting instructor. The not-panicking aircraft did what it was supposed to do: continued flying to a soft landing in an empty, snow-covered, cotton-growing field. America is a place/concept which does not guarantee us individual successes in our lifetimes. But it does allow us the opportunity to achieve our dreams—if we are willing to live and continue paying the price of achieving them!
我才不在乎呢，穆罕默德！最重要的根本不是战机本身或它属于第几代，而是飞行员、机组人员和武器操作员！以及他们来自哪里、是如何成长起来的。社会在其从事的事业、制造的物品、使用的工具中，都蕴含着固有的文化短板与优势！我们那一代人粗俗、无礼，还满口脏话，但那些出身各行各业的军官们，却都秉持着“力求做到最好”的信念，堪称绅士。那时的美国虽称不上“团结一致”，但当人们还能在社会中各司其职、发挥主导作用时，整个国家在态度和武器方面都具备优势。正是这种优势，将男性天生的攻击性与机械天赋，同女性的生育、支持、保护能力，以及让所有人铭记“为何要过有价值的生活并守护它”的初心结合在了一起！20世纪60年代我参加基础飞行员训练时，有沙特王子在我们基地接受飞行员培训。冬天，我们驾驶T-38教练机起飞爬升时，机翼前缘常常会结冰，不过那只是无害的雾凇，飞到一万英尺高度时就会蒸发。可某天，一名沙特飞行员看到机翼结冰后惊慌失措，直接弹射逃生，还连累了他那大喊“搞什么……！”的教官。而那架没有“恐慌”的飞机，则按其设计初衷继续飞行，最终在一片空旷的、积雪覆盖的棉花地里平稳着陆。美国这个国家、这个概念，无法保证我们每个人在一生中都能取得成功，但它给了我们实现梦想的机会——前提是我们愿意为之坚持，并持续付出努力。
Redneck Picard Former Geologist at United States Geological Survey (USGS) (1994–2012)
雷德尼克·皮卡德 美国地质调查局（USGS）前地质学家（1994-2012年）
It is hard to say. From the spec sheet and photos, it can pass be passed off as a G5 fighter. But given Turkey’s relative lack of aviation expertise and fighter design and manufacturing, and its comparatively weak industrial base, it seems reasonable to suppose the Turks will struggle to make it fully competitive with other country’s G5 fighter without extensive foreign support.
很难说。从技术规格表和照片来看，它勉强能被当作第五代战斗机。但考虑到土耳其在航空专业知识、战斗机设计与制造方面相对欠缺，且工业基础较为薄弱，有理由认为，如果没有大量外部支持，土耳其将难以使其（“KAAN”战斗机）与其他国家的第五代战斗机具备完全的竞争力。
Tolga Karakaya International Politics
托尔加·卡拉卡亚 研究国际政治领域
No. For now, it can be considered a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft. The most important equipment for an aircraft to be considered a 5th generation fighter jet is the engine it uses. Turkey is a country that has the capacity to produce jet engines locally, but the product we call Crystal Turbine jet engine is on a very different level. Even in the world, the number of companies that can produce this engine can be counted on the fingers of one hand. That's why Turkey has a long way to go.
不是的。目前来看，“KAAN”只能被归为4.5代战斗机。一款战机要被认定为第五代战斗机，其最关键的装备便是所使用的发动机。土耳其虽然具备自主生产喷气发动机的能力，但我们所说的“单晶涡轮喷气发动机”（此处“Crystal Turbine jet engine”结合上下文应为“单晶涡轮喷气发动机”，即single crystal turbine jet engine）属于完全不同的技术层级。即便在全球范围内，能够生产这种发动机的公司也屈指可数。因此，土耳其要实现真正的第五代战斗机研发目标，还有很长的路要走。
ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΣΚΟΡΔΟΣ Former MECHANICAL ENGINEER at O.S.Y. (1981–2012) 1y
尼科拉奥斯·斯科尔佐斯 希腊国家造船公司（O.S.Y.）前机械工程师（1981-2012年） 1年前
Turkey has three strong advantages when it comes to the production of industrial products.
1) very high availability of unskilled labor due to large population.
2) large energy availability from Azerbaijan
3) insufficient and ineffective scientific and technological personnel.
在工业产品生产方面，土耳其拥有三项显著“优势”：
1. 人口规模庞大，可提供大量非技术劳动力；
2. 能从阿塞拜疆获取充足的能源；
3. 科技人才数量不足且能力有限。
So, based on the above, large technology companies from the United States and Europe, have sent thousands of their technicians to Turkey and are already producing ready-made solutions mainly of weapons systems.
In Turkey, weapons systems are being developed in about one or two years, the research, development and production of which in their original countries took several decades.
The weapons systems are not developed by Turkish technicians, but by the armies of European and American technicians and scientists.
In the case of KAAN, we see an attempt to continue and improve the F35 fighter in Turkey, given that in the US it is almost impossible to continue the production and improvement of the F35 fighter.
基于上述情况，来自美国和欧洲的大型科技公司已向土耳其派遣了数千名技术人员，目前正主要在土耳其生产武器系统的现成解决方案。
在土耳其，一些武器系统的研发周期仅需一到两年，而这些武器系统在其原产国（欧美国家）的研发和生产曾耗费了数十年时间。
这些武器系统并非由土耳其技术人员研发，而是由大批欧美技术人员和科学家研发的。
就“KAAN”战斗机而言，考虑到美国几乎已无法继续F-35战斗机的生产与改进工作，我们看到的是土耳其在试图延续并改进F-35战斗机的技术路线。
Eleftheriou Dorotheos-Vasileios MRes in Synthetic Biology, University College London (UCL) (Graduated 2011) 1y
埃莱夫塞里乌·多罗西奥斯-瓦西利奥斯 伦敦大学学院（UCL）合成生物学硕士（2011年毕业）
Yes! It is analogue to the F-22. The USA gave to Turkey the know how to built a 5th Generation fighter since Turkey is the most important ally in NATO. Initially Turkey was to build the F-35. Since Turkey decided to step out from the F-35 program USA gave her the blueprints to build TXF/KAAN. Regarding the other facts about the “disagreement” between USA and Turkey… It was a little Diplomatic theatre to convince Russia to sell to Turkey the S-400 system and then Turkey let the American experts find out critical information about the S-400, as to how it locks etc…
是的！“KAAN”战斗机与F-22类似。由于土耳其是北约最重要的盟友，美国向土耳其提供了制造第五代战斗机的技术诀窍。最初，土耳其本计划参与制造F-35战斗机。后来，在土耳其决定退出F-35项目后，美国向其提供了制造TXF/KAAN战斗机的设计蓝图。至于美土之间“存在分歧”等其他说法……那不过是一场小小的外交表演，目的是说服俄罗斯向土耳其出售S-400防空系统，之后土耳其再让美国专家获取关于S-400的关键信息，比如该系统的锁定机制等。
土耳其战斗机“KAAN”真的是第5代吗？
Mehmet Emin Engineer Upvoted by Colin Guest, lives in Turkey (1988-present) 1y
穆罕默德·埃明 工程师 获科林·格斯特（1988年至今居住于土耳其）
In order to answer this question, it is necessary to understand Türkiye's aircraft production ability and capacity.
Contrary to popular belief, Türkiye's aviation adventure goes back a long way. Nu.D 36 aircraft ordered by the Netherlands in 1936 and Thk-5 aircraft exported to Denmark are examples of these.
Turkish defense industry has been developing rapidly in recent years. Türkiye produces its own tanks, planes, jets, helicopters and the engines of these vehicles.
So, despite all this, does the Turkish defense industry have the ability to produce a real 5th generation fighter jet?
The biggest obstacle to making a jet is undoubtedly making a its engine. The biggest challenge in making a jet engine is making single crystal turbine blades. TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries) CEO Temel Kotil announced that Türkiye achieved this.
As it is known, helicopter engines are actually jet engines. Türkiye has successfully flown using its own production engines in its own Gokbey helicopter.
There are various types of jet engines produced by Türkiye.
Türkiye produces aircraft parts for Boeing and Airbus companies. It is one of the manufacturers of F-35 and hundreds of F-16 were produced in Türkiye.
要回答这个问题，有必要了解土耳其的飞机生产能力。与普遍看法相反，土耳其的航空探索历史十分悠久。1936年荷兰订购的Nu.D 36飞机以及出口到丹麦的Thk-5飞机就是例证。近年来，土耳其国防工业发展迅速，能够自主生产坦克、固定翼飞机、喷气式战斗机、直升机以及这些装备的发动机。那么，尽管取得了这些成就，土耳其国防工业是否有能力生产出真正的第五代战斗机呢？制造喷气式战斗机最大的障碍无疑是发动机制造，而制造喷气发动机的最大挑战在于单晶涡轮叶片的生产。土耳其航空航天工业公司（TAI）首席执行官泰梅尔·科蒂尔宣布，土耳其已成功攻克这一难题。众所周知，直升机发动机本质上也是喷气发动机，土耳其的“戈克贝伊”直升机已成功使用自主生产的发动机实现飞行。土耳其生产的喷气发动机种类多样，还为波音和空客公司生产飞机零部件，同时也是F-35战斗机的制造商之一，并且已在本国生产了数百架F-16战斗机。
In addition, Türkiye has its own light attack and training aircraft called Hurjet.
In Kaan, almost all parts and systems such as canopy, landing gear, avionic systems, all weapon systems, AESA radar are produced domestically. Only the ejection seat and engines were imported. TAI CEO Temel Kotil said today that the engines of the first aircraft to be delivered to the Turkish Armed Forces will be domestically produced and the aircraft will be delivered in 2028 at the latest. This date coincides with a date even earlier than the date on which the F-35s, which were not given to Türkiye due to a betrayal by the USA and announced to be given to Greece, will be delivered to Greece.
此外，土耳其拥有自主研发的“胡尔捷特”轻型攻击机和教练机。在“KAAN”战斗机上，座舱盖、起落架、航空电子系统、所有武器系统、有源相控阵（AESA）雷达等几乎所有零部件和系统均实现国产化，仅弹射座椅和发动机为进口。土耳其航空航天工业公司首席执行官泰梅尔·科蒂尔近日表示，首批交付给土耳其武装部队的“KAAN”战斗机，其发动机将实现国产化，且该机型最迟将于2028年交付。这一交付时间甚至早于美国因背信弃义未交付给土耳其、转而宣布要交付给希腊的F-35战斗机的预计交付时间。
The fact that Türkiye is NATO's second largest army, that it uses NATO weapon systems, that it produces in accordance with NATO standards, and that it is a supplier of parts and weapon systems to NATO countries proves that it is a respected arms manufacturer.
So, Türkiye has become the 4th country in the world that can produce 5th generation jet aircraft, after the USA, Russia and China.
土耳其作为北约第二大军队，不仅使用北约武器系统、按北约标准进行生产，还是北约国家的零部件和武器系统供应商，这些事实都证明它是一家受尊重的武器制造商。因此，土耳其已成为继美国、俄罗斯和中国之后，全球第四个有能力生产第五代喷气式战斗机的国家。
Jamie Wang Born and raised in China, had lived in Swiss and Germany Upvoted by Paul Tomblin, Licensed private pilot. PP-ASEL-IA with high performance and complex endorsements. and David Tussey, 20 yrs as a US Navy fighter pilot.
王 Jamie 在中国出生长大，曾在瑞士和德国生活 获保罗·汤布林（持有私人飞行员执照，拥有高性能和复杂机型驾驶认证的PP-ASEL-IA飞行员）与戴维·塔西（拥有20年美国海军战斗机飞行员服役经历）
No it’s not.
It only looks like one.
Very simple:
See the intake (red line) and the gap between the intake and body?
It's called Caret inlet.
It's to separate the slower speed air of the boundary layer from entering the engine, which will cause the engine to surge.
Caret inlet was OK for jet fighters, until the 5th gen fighters need stealth ability.
The caret inlet contributes 89.8% of F-22’s front radar cross section.
I.E. around 90% of the size of an F-22 shown on radar is because of the inlet.
On F-35, they used a new design called diverterless supersonic inlet.
It’s simpler and lighter, and it makes the jet less obvious on radar.
F-22 was designed before the manufacturer obtain the ability to draw the correct shape of a DSI, and it would cause the body to be redesigned if they want to modify F-22.
So US military leave the F-22s as they are.
But it’s kind of a standard for 5th gen stealth fighter now:
The front RCS of F-35 is 0.0015 square meters.
For J-20, it’s 0.001 to 0.005 square meters. J-20 at its worst is 3 times big on radar comparing to F-35, and usually there is no significant difference if the RCS is within 10 times.
不是的，它只是看起来像第五代战斗机而已。
道理很简单：看到那个进气道（红线标注处）以及进气道与机身之间的缝隙了吗？这被称为“尖劈式进气道”（Caret inlet），其作用是阻止边界层内流速较慢的空气进入发动机，因为这些空气会导致发动机喘振。对于普通喷气式战斗机来说，尖劈式进气道是可行的，但到了需要具备隐身能力的第五代战斗机时代，这种设计就不行了。F-22战斗机前部雷达反射截面（RCS）的89.8%都来自于其尖劈式进气道，也就是说，F-22在雷达上显示的信号大小中，约90%都是由进气道造成的。而F-35采用了一种名为“无附面层隔道超音速进气道”（DSI）的新设计，这种设计更简单、更轻便，能让战斗机在雷达上的信号更不明显。F-22的设计早于制造商掌握DSI进气道正确外形设计技术的时间，如果要对F-22的进气道进行改造，就需要重新设计机身，因此美国军方决定不对F-22进行改动。但如今，无附面层隔道超音速进气道已成为第五代隐身战斗机的一种标配。F-35的前部雷达反射截面为0.0015平方米，歼-20的前部雷达反射截面则在0.001至0.005平方米之间。歼-20最差情况下的雷达反射截面是F-35的3倍，而通常来说，只要雷达反射截面差距在10倍以内，就不会有显著差异。
The estimation of KAAN’s front RCS is between 6.7 to 66 times of F-35, that’s 0.01 to 0.99 square meter. That’s better than F-16’s 0.1 to 1.5, but not significantly better than Rafale’s 0.06+/-0.02.
So from the outside, it’s at the best a 4.5 gen.
据估算，“KAAN”的前部雷达反射截面是F-35的6.7至66倍，即0.01至0.99平方米。这一数据虽然优于F-16的0.1至1.5平方米，但并不比“阵风”战斗机的0.06±0.02平方米有显著优势。因此，仅从外观设计来看，“KAAN”充其量只能算作4.5代战斗机。
Plus, I highly doubt from where should Turkey to purchase the avionics and engines…
Turkey claimed that it will develop a magical engine with 16 tons of thrust… judging by its previous experience being only 4.5 tons… I can only wish for a good luck.
此外，我非常怀疑土耳其能从哪里采购到适配的航空电子设备和发动机……土耳其声称将研发一款推力达16吨的高性能发动机，但从其之前最高仅能研发推力4.5吨发动机的经验来看，我只能祝它好运。
Michael X Knows Chinese Upvoted by Adrian Kruger, Qualified pilot with a PPL, student of all things Aviation.
迈克尔·X 懂中文 获阿德里安·克鲁格（持有私人飞行员执照的合格飞行员，航空领域全能学习者）
We don't know yet. The most challenging part for building a 5th gen, isn't how stealthy the shape is. The external shape is the easiest part, because it can be designed on a computer and run countless RCS simulations.
目前还无法确定。制造第五代战斗机最具挑战性的部分并非外形的隐身设计，外形设计反而是最容易的环节，因为可以通过计算机进行设计，并开展无数次雷达反射截面模拟测试。
The most challenging part is that, the production method changed. They can not be built with the same tools and methods used building a 4th gen. A lot of parts had to be forged under extreme pressure, or using very complex 3D printed structure, otherwise the fighter jet is going to flex, resulting in internal weapon bay couldn't open under extreme load. Only very few countries have those tools, they all built by themselves, and won't be exported.
最困难的在于生产方式的变革——第五代战斗机无法采用与第四代战斗机相同的工具和制造方法来生产。其许多零部件需要在极端压力下锻造，或是采用极为复杂的3D打印结构，否则战斗机在承受极端载荷时会发生形变，导致内置武器舱无法打开。拥有这类制造工具的国家寥寥无几，而且这些工具均为各国自主研发，不会对外出口。
It needs extremely large carbon fiber weaving machines for those wings, yet had to be designed by yourself. Good luck buying them.
The aircraft skin has to be produced in extreme large pieces and avoiding rivets as much as possible, even the riveting tool had to be re-designed. Building a production line for 5th gen aircraft are way more challenging than building the aircraft itself.
Let me stop here, skipping radar, engine, datalix...etc, but i hope people get the idea. Developing a 5th gen will easily cost hundreds of billions, making buying F35 from the US looks like a very cheap option.
So for KAAN, we don't know yet.
制造第五代战斗机的机翼需要超大型碳纤维编织机，而这类设备也必须自主设计，想通过采购获得难度极大。此外，机身蒙皮需要采用超大尺寸的整体构件制造，尽可能减少铆钉的使用，甚至连铆接工具都需要重新设计。建立一条第五代战斗机生产线的难度，远大于研发战斗机本身。这里我就不再赘述雷达、发动机、数据链等其他方面了，但希望大家能明白其中的关键：研发一款第五代战斗机很容易就会耗费数千亿美元，相比之下，从美国购买F-35反而成了非常便宜的选择。因此，对于“KAAN”是否属于真正的第五代战斗机，目前还无法给出定论。
Rodra Hascaryo Studied Aerospace and Aeronautical Engineering at University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Upvoted by Tunacan Gulec, lives in Turkey (1987-present) and Adrian Kruger, Qualified pilot with a PPL, student of all things Aviation. 1y
罗德拉·哈斯卡约 曾在伊利诺伊大学厄巴纳-香槟分校攻读航空航天工程专业 获图纳坎·古莱克（1987年至今居住于土耳其）与阿德里安·克鲁格（持有私人飞行员执照的合格飞行员，航空领域全能学习者）
First of all, to me, “5th generation” means “it’s stealthy”. Any other advanced features like data lix or AESA radar can be integrated to older jets, but “true” stealth like the F-22 and F-35 (as opposed to semi-stealthy features like those in the Rafale or Hornet) has to be designed from the start.
Looking at some info available (and the fact that Turkey was once a partner in the F-35 program), the claim seems pretty credible.
首先，在我看来，“第五代战斗机”的核心标志就是“具备隐身能力”。数据链、有源相控阵雷达等其他先进功能，都可以集成到较老旧的机型上，但像F-22和F-35那样的“真正隐身能力”（而非“阵风”或“大黄蜂”战斗机所具备的半隐身特性），必须从设计之初就进行整体规划。结合现有信息（以及土耳其曾是F-35项目合作伙伴这一事实）来看，土耳其声称“KAAN”是第五代战斗机的说法，似乎具有较高的可信度。
It looks like a cross between the F-35 and F-22. The mockups showed internal weapon bays on the sides, something non-negotiable if you want a stealthy airplane because those pylons and weapons can show up on radar. It’s roughly the same size as the F-22 (actually slightly bigger) although it weighs closer to the F-35, so it definitely can carry weapons internally.
“KAAN”的外形看起来像是F-35和F-22的结合体，其模型显示机身侧面设有内置武器舱——对于隐身战斗机而言，内置武器舱是必不可少的设计，因为外挂架和外挂武器会在雷达上产生明显信号。“KAAN”的尺寸与F-22大致相当（实际上略大一些），但重量更接近F-35，因此完全具备内置武器挂载能力。
Right now, their first models are going to use the same engines as the F-16 but they are developing new ones in cooperation with Rolls-Royce. Since engines contributes to stealth, it might mean that it might not as stealthy as the F-35, but it’s better than the likes of F-16.
As for stealth coating, the same facility that was commissioned to make F-35 fuselages are now being used to make it for this airplane, so chances are, they know what they’re doing and will probably deliver.
So maybe Turkey is going to be the third country to make stealth fighter jets on their own after US and China (Russia’s Su-57 doesn’t count).
目前，“KAAN”的首批原型机将采用与F-16相同的发动机，但土耳其正与劳斯莱斯公司合作研发新型发动机。由于发动机性能也会影响隐身效果，这意味着“KAAN”的隐身能力可能不及F-35，但肯定优于F-16这类机型。在隐身涂层方面，此前负责生产F-35机身的工厂如今已开始为“KAAN”制造相关部件
因此土耳其很可能掌握了隐身涂层的相关技术，并且有望顺利应用到“KAAN”上。如此看来，土耳其或许将成为继美国和中国之后，第三个能够自主研发隐身战斗机的国家（俄罗斯的苏-57不算在内）。
BORIS Business Owner Investor at Luxury Property Developments 1y
鲍里斯 豪华房地产开发领域企业主、投资者
As a Russian Aerospace Engineer with Phd degree from caltech I can definetely say that Turks are in good path because without help of BAE it would be just a daydream even leading manufacturers like safran rolls royce etc. Struggle due to combined obstacles e.g. Programme cost budget constraints Scarcity of key resources and High R&D costs Comonality and adaptability of existing and new markets barrier entry Politics etc. etc. You may add more.
作为一名拥有加州理工学院博士学位的俄罗斯航空航天工程师，我可以明确地说，土耳其在研发“KAAN”的道路上进展顺利，但如果没有英国宇航系统公司（BAE）的帮助，这一切都将是白日梦。即便像赛峰、劳斯莱斯等顶尖制造商，也会因各种综合障碍而举步维艰，比如项目成本超支、预算受限、关键资源稀缺、研发成本高昂、现有及新兴市场的通用性与适应性问题、市场准入壁垒以及政治因素等等，类似的障碍还有很多。
Also Note that F16 multirole is currently cheapest(you can check the comparsion data its awailable I dunno exactly)to Operate fighter jet with high commonality that's why Turks and Greeks (btw Greece has the biggest fleet of F16 in the World) its for them plausible and well defined strategy.
Another important issue is the supposed price I read that it nominal unit price will be 100mil USD Its too much and its definetely failed Business like F35.
另外需要注意的是，F-16多用途战斗机是目前运营成本最低的机型之一（具体数据可查询相关对比资料，我记不太准确了），而且零部件通用性高。这也是土耳其和希腊（顺便提一句，希腊拥有全球规模最大的F-16机群）选择装备该机型的合理且明确的战略考量。
另一个重要问题是“KAAN”的预期价格，我了解到其名义单价将达到1亿美元，这个价格过高，其商业前景必然会像F-35一样惨淡。
In comparison such newly entrant in these business Turkey therefore it has quite low credibility,even if she is NATO Member we have to look from a Marketing perspective if another Manufacturer let say USA or Europe offer cheaper price than the given buyer will do its best to purchase since as we all know politics unfortunately play higher roles than a technology or trade combined all together therefore it seems to be only for own use and non export 。
相比之下，土耳其作为航空制造领域的新入局者，可信度相当低。即便它是北约成员国，从市场营销的角度来看，如果其他制造商（比如美国或欧洲的厂商）能提供更低的价格，采购方肯定会优先选择购买。因为我们都知道，不幸的是，政治因素的影响力远超技术或贸易本身。因此，“KAAN”似乎很可能仅用于土耳其本国军方，不具备出口潜力。
intended again its highly expensive job for such Economically miserable country like Turkey for example we had Summer Residency as you know we Russians like so much unfortunately but we choose not to go to Turkey since its extremely expensive in comparison to make Holiday in Spain Italy(we have German Citizenship)or another place to take holiday after long exhausting work and winter season let alone live in this Country.
而对于土耳其这样经济状况糟糕的国家来说，研发这款战斗机无疑是一项代价极高的工程。举个例子，众所周知，我们俄罗斯人原本非常喜欢去土耳其度过暑期，但今年我们家却选择不去了，因为相比之下，去西班牙、意大利度假（我们持有德国公民身份）或其他地方放松要便宜得多——毕竟经过漫长繁忙的工作和寒冬，我们需要的是度假，更不用说在土耳其长期生活了。
I gave that small example from my family because I As a Russian Businessman who is over 40 married with kids and loads of International experience both life work and Education and as Scholar Educator.
我之所以举这个家庭中的小例子，是因为我作为一名40多岁、已婚有孩的俄罗斯商人，在生活、工作、教育等方面都拥有丰富的国际经验，同时也是一名学者和教育工作者。
Economically collapsed country such as Turkey tries it best to show up its military power via catapulting itsself from nothing to gen 5 fighter jet level nothing in our World is impossible but Economically miserable country like Turkey does exactly the same mistakes of our Soviet unx people need salaries,availability of products purchasing power and a possibility a path for better life instead of show people need at the first glance Soviet unx made huge mistakes by doing so and failed due to inertness of aforementioned issues and Turks exactly trying nowadays doing the same mistake.
像土耳其这样经济濒临崩溃的国家，试图通过跨越式发展，从几乎没有基础的状态直接迈向第五代战斗机研发水平，以此彰显其军事实力。虽然世界上没有绝对不可能的事情，但土耳其这种经济困窘的国家，正在重蹈苏联的覆辙。民众首先需要的是薪水、充足的商品供应、购买力以及通往更好生活的途径，而非空洞的“展示”。苏联当年正是因为忽视了这些民生需求，犯下了严重错误，最终因上述问题积重难返而解体。如今，土耳其正在犯同样的错误。
1 2 Lived in Air Headquarters, Islamabad, Pakistan (2021–2023) 1y
1 2 2021-2023年居住于巴基斯坦伊斯兰堡空军总部
The first block of KAAN will not be a 5th gen aircraft but rather a advanced 4.5 gen aircraft. Definitely more advanced than Rafales and Eurofighters.
The 5th gen block of KAAN will be KAAN Blk1. This block will have internal weapons bay hence making it a true 5th gen aircraft. This aircraft will be similar to F-35s. This block will have sensor fusion, manned/unmanned teaming, advanced HMDs, supercruse and many more making it a feared opponent in the battlefield.
“KAAN”战斗机的首个批次（Block 0）并非第五代战斗机，而是一款先进的4.5代战斗机，但肯定比“阵风”和“台风”战斗机更先进。“KAAN”的第五代机型批次将是“KAAN Blk1”，该批次机型将配备内置武器舱，因此堪称真正的第五代战斗机，性能与F-35相近。此外，“KAAN Blk1”还将具备传感器融合、有人-无人协同作战、先进头盔显示系统、超音速巡航等多种先进功能，使其成为战场上令人生畏的对手。
Jim Walt 1y
吉姆·沃尔特
lets assume it is not let say its 4.5++generation with some stealth characters, even then , it is an paramount technical and industrial Achievement for the Turks , especially if they manage to design and build their own jet engine , form history we can say the design and development process will not be easy and smooth ,but unlike the MBT altay program the Turks have huge experience in building f16 , in fact at the end if its turn out to be 4 gen at f16 level it is still an achievement that no other regional and view global powers can say they have done it or they can doit , so go Turkey…
即便我们假设它不是第五代战斗机，比如称其为具备部分隐身特性的4.5++代战斗机，对于土耳其而言，这依然是一项极其重大的技术和工业成就，尤其是如果他们能成功自主设计并制造出喷气发动机的话。从历史经验来看，战斗机的设计和研发过程绝非一帆风顺，但与“阿尔泰”主战坦克项目不同，土耳其在制造F-16战斗机方面拥有丰富的经验。事实上，即便最终这款机型仅达到F-16水平的第四代战斗机标准，这仍然是一项诸多地区性力量乃至部分全球性力量都无法企及或宣称能够实现的成就，所以，土耳其加油……
Peter Don Konics II Former Officer/Fighter Pilot at The United States of America (1966–1972) 1y
彼得·唐·科尼克斯二世 美国前军官/战斗机飞行员（1966-1972年）
ME! Who cares, Mehmet!? It is not the machine/generation that is the most important; it is the PILOT/AIRCREW/WEAPONS OPERATORS! And where they come from and how they are raised. Societies have built-in cultural weaknesses and strengths in everything they do/build/use! My generation was crude, rude, and profane. Yet, gentlemen officers, ‘” seeking to be the best they could be” from different “walks of life.” Then, the “not-so-United States of America” had the advantage in attitude and weapons when actual men and women were predominant within their societal roles. Thus, combining natural male aggression/mechanical aptitude and female birthing, supporting, protecting, and reminding both of the “reasons why” of living a life worth living and protecting it! When I was in basic pilot training during the 1960s, Saudi princes were being trained as pilots at our base. During the winter, it was usual to see ice forming on the leading edge of our T-38’s wings when climbing out during take-off. It was only innocuous rime ice that evaporated as we passed through ten thousand feet. But one day, a Saudi pilot panicked at the sight of the ice on his wings and ejected himself and his “What the…!” shouting instructor. The not-panicking aircraft did what it was supposed to do: continued flying to a soft landing in an empty, snow-covered, cotton-growing field. America is a place/concept which does not guarantee us individual successes in our lifetimes. But it does allow us the opportunity to achieve our dreams—if we are willing to live and continue paying the price of achieving them!
我才不在乎呢，穆罕默德！最重要的根本不是战机本身或它属于第几代，而是飞行员、机组人员和武器操作员！以及他们来自哪里、是如何成长起来的。社会在其从事的事业、制造的物品、使用的工具中，都蕴含着固有的文化短板与优势！我们那一代人粗俗、无礼，还满口脏话，但那些出身各行各业的军官们，却都秉持着“力求做到最好”的信念，堪称绅士。那时的美国虽称不上“团结一致”，但当人们还能在社会中各司其职、发挥主导作用时，整个国家在态度和武器方面都具备优势。正是这种优势，将男性天生的攻击性与机械天赋，同女性的生育、支持、保护能力，以及让所有人铭记“为何要过有价值的生活并守护它”的初心结合在了一起！20世纪60年代我参加基础飞行员训练时，有沙特王子在我们基地接受飞行员培训。冬天，我们驾驶T-38教练机起飞爬升时，机翼前缘常常会结冰，不过那只是无害的雾凇，飞到一万英尺高度时就会蒸发。可某天，一名沙特飞行员看到机翼结冰后惊慌失措，直接弹射逃生，还连累了他那大喊“搞什么……！”的教官。而那架没有“恐慌”的飞机，则按其设计初衷继续飞行，最终在一片空旷的、积雪覆盖的棉花地里平稳着陆。美国这个国家、这个概念，无法保证我们每个人在一生中都能取得成功，但它给了我们实现梦想的机会——前提是我们愿意为之坚持，并持续付出努力。
Redneck Picard Former Geologist at United States Geological Survey (USGS) (1994–2012)
雷德尼克·皮卡德 美国地质调查局（USGS）前地质学家（1994-2012年）
It is hard to say. From the spec sheet and photos, it can pass be passed off as a G5 fighter. But given Turkey’s relative lack of aviation expertise and fighter design and manufacturing, and its comparatively weak industrial base, it seems reasonable to suppose the Turks will struggle to make it fully competitive with other country’s G5 fighter without extensive foreign support.
很难说。从技术规格表和照片来看，它勉强能被当作第五代战斗机。但考虑到土耳其在航空专业知识、战斗机设计与制造方面相对欠缺，且工业基础较为薄弱，有理由认为，如果没有大量外部支持，土耳其将难以使其（“KAAN”战斗机）与其他国家的第五代战斗机具备完全的竞争力。
Tolga Karakaya International Politics
托尔加·卡拉卡亚 研究国际政治领域
No. For now, it can be considered a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft. The most important equipment for an aircraft to be considered a 5th generation fighter jet is the engine it uses. Turkey is a country that has the capacity to produce jet engines locally, but the product we call Crystal Turbine jet engine is on a very different level. Even in the world, the number of companies that can produce this engine can be counted on the fingers of one hand. That's why Turkey has a long way to go.
不是的。目前来看，“KAAN”只能被归为4.5代战斗机。一款战机要被认定为第五代战斗机，其最关键的装备便是所使用的发动机。土耳其虽然具备自主生产喷气发动机的能力，但我们所说的“单晶涡轮喷气发动机”（此处“Crystal Turbine jet engine”结合上下文应为“单晶涡轮喷气发动机”，即single crystal turbine jet engine）属于完全不同的技术层级。即便在全球范围内，能够生产这种发动机的公司也屈指可数。因此，土耳其要实现真正的第五代战斗机研发目标，还有很长的路要走。
ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΣΚΟΡΔΟΣ Former MECHANICAL ENGINEER at O.S.Y. (1981–2012) 1y
尼科拉奥斯·斯科尔佐斯 希腊国家造船公司（O.S.Y.）前机械工程师（1981-2012年） 1年前
Turkey has three strong advantages when it comes to the production of industrial products.
1) very high availability of unskilled labor due to large population.
2) large energy availability from Azerbaijan
3) insufficient and ineffective scientific and technological personnel.
在工业产品生产方面，土耳其拥有三项显著“优势”：
1. 人口规模庞大，可提供大量非技术劳动力；
2. 能从阿塞拜疆获取充足的能源；
3. 科技人才数量不足且能力有限。
So, based on the above, large technology companies from the United States and Europe, have sent thousands of their technicians to Turkey and are already producing ready-made solutions mainly of weapons systems.
In Turkey, weapons systems are being developed in about one or two years, the research, development and production of which in their original countries took several decades.
The weapons systems are not developed by Turkish technicians, but by the armies of European and American technicians and scientists.
In the case of KAAN, we see an attempt to continue and improve the F35 fighter in Turkey, given that in the US it is almost impossible to continue the production and improvement of the F35 fighter.
基于上述情况，来自美国和欧洲的大型科技公司已向土耳其派遣了数千名技术人员，目前正主要在土耳其生产武器系统的现成解决方案。
在土耳其，一些武器系统的研发周期仅需一到两年，而这些武器系统在其原产国（欧美国家）的研发和生产曾耗费了数十年时间。
这些武器系统并非由土耳其技术人员研发，而是由大批欧美技术人员和科学家研发的。
就“KAAN”战斗机而言，考虑到美国几乎已无法继续F-35战斗机的生产与改进工作，我们看到的是土耳其在试图延续并改进F-35战斗机的技术路线。
Eleftheriou Dorotheos-Vasileios MRes in Synthetic Biology, University College London (UCL) (Graduated 2011) 1y
埃莱夫塞里乌·多罗西奥斯-瓦西利奥斯 伦敦大学学院（UCL）合成生物学硕士（2011年毕业）
Yes! It is analogue to the F-22. The USA gave to Turkey the know how to built a 5th Generation fighter since Turkey is the most important ally in NATO. Initially Turkey was to build the F-35. Since Turkey decided to step out from the F-35 program USA gave her the blueprints to build TXF/KAAN. Regarding the other facts about the “disagreement” between USA and Turkey… It was a little Diplomatic theatre to convince Russia to sell to Turkey the S-400 system and then Turkey let the American experts find out critical information about the S-400, as to how it locks etc…
是的！“KAAN”战斗机与F-22类似。由于土耳其是北约最重要的盟友，美国向土耳其提供了制造第五代战斗机的技术诀窍。最初，土耳其本计划参与制造F-35战斗机。后来，在土耳其决定退出F-35项目后，美国向其提供了制造TXF/KAAN战斗机的设计蓝图。至于美土之间“存在分歧”等其他说法……那不过是一场小小的外交表演，目的是说服俄罗斯向土耳其出售S-400防空系统，之后土耳其再让美国专家获取关于S-400的关键信息，比如该系统的锁定机制等。
评论翻译
Is the Turkish fighter jet 'KAAN' really the 5th generation?
土耳其战斗机“KAAN”真的是第5代吗？
Mehmet Emin Engineer Upvoted by Colin Guest, lives in Turkey (1988-present) 1y
穆罕默德·埃明 工程师 获科林·格斯特（1988年至今居住于土耳其）
In order to answer this question, it is necessary to understand Türkiye's aircraft production ability and capacity.
Contrary to popular belief, Türkiye's aviation adventure goes back a long way. Nu.D 36 aircraft ordered by the Netherlands in 1936 and Thk-5 aircraft exported to Denmark are examples of these.
Turkish defense industry has been developing rapidly in recent years. Türkiye produces its own tanks, planes, jets, helicopters and the engines of these vehicles.
So, despite all this, does the Turkish defense industry have the ability to produce a real 5th generation fighter jet?
The biggest obstacle to making a jet is undoubtedly making a its engine. The biggest challenge in making a jet engine is making single crystal turbine blades. TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries) CEO Temel Kotil announced that Türkiye achieved this.
As it is known, helicopter engines are actually jet engines. Türkiye has successfully flown using its own production engines in its own Gokbey helicopter.
There are various types of jet engines produced by Türkiye.
Türkiye produces aircraft parts for Boeing and Airbus companies. It is one of the manufacturers of F-35 and hundreds of F-16 were produced in Türkiye.
要回答这个问题，有必要了解土耳其的飞机生产能力。与普遍看法相反，土耳其的航空探索历史十分悠久。1936年荷兰订购的Nu.D 36飞机以及出口到丹麦的Thk-5飞机就是例证。近年来，土耳其国防工业发展迅速，能够自主生产坦克、固定翼飞机、喷气式战斗机、直升机以及这些装备的发动机。那么，尽管取得了这些成就，土耳其国防工业是否有能力生产出真正的第五代战斗机呢？制造喷气式战斗机最大的障碍无疑是发动机制造，而制造喷气发动机的最大挑战在于单晶涡轮叶片的生产。土耳其航空航天工业公司（TAI）首席执行官泰梅尔·科蒂尔宣布，土耳其已成功攻克这一难题。众所周知，直升机发动机本质上也是喷气发动机，土耳其的“戈克贝伊”直升机已成功使用自主生产的发动机实现飞行。土耳其生产的喷气发动机种类多样，还为波音和空客公司生产飞机零部件，同时也是F-35战斗机的制造商之一，并且已在本国生产了数百架F-16战斗机。
In addition, Türkiye has its own light attack and training aircraft called Hurjet.
In Kaan, almost all parts and systems such as canopy, landing gear, avionic systems, all weapon systems, AESA radar are produced domestically. Only the ejection seat and engines were imported. TAI CEO Temel Kotil said today that the engines of the first aircraft to be delivered to the Turkish Armed Forces will be domestically produced and the aircraft will be delivered in 2028 at the latest. This date coincides with a date even earlier than the date on which the F-35s, which were not given to Türkiye due to a betrayal by the USA and announced to be given to Greece, will be delivered to Greece.
此外，土耳其拥有自主研发的“胡尔捷特”轻型攻击机和教练机。在“KAAN”战斗机上，座舱盖、起落架、航空电子系统、所有武器系统、有源相控阵（AESA）雷达等几乎所有零部件和系统均实现国产化，仅弹射座椅和发动机为进口。土耳其航空航天工业公司首席执行官泰梅尔·科蒂尔近日表示，首批交付给土耳其武装部队的“KAAN”战斗机，其发动机将实现国产化，且该机型最迟将于2028年交付。这一交付时间甚至早于美国因背信弃义未交付给土耳其、转而宣布要交付给希腊的F-35战斗机的预计交付时间。
The fact that Türkiye is NATO's second largest army, that it uses NATO weapon systems, that it produces in accordance with NATO standards, and that it is a supplier of parts and weapon systems to NATO countries proves that it is a respected arms manufacturer.
So, Türkiye has become the 4th country in the world that can produce 5th generation jet aircraft, after the USA, Russia and China.
土耳其作为北约第二大军队，不仅使用北约武器系统、按北约标准进行生产，还是北约国家的零部件和武器系统供应商，这些事实都证明它是一家受尊重的武器制造商。因此，土耳其已成为继美国、俄罗斯和中国之后，全球第四个有能力生产第五代喷气式战斗机的国家。
Jamie Wang Born and raised in China, had lived in Swiss and Germany Upvoted by Paul Tomblin, Licensed private pilot. PP-ASEL-IA with high performance and complex endorsements. and David Tussey, 20 yrs as a US Navy fighter pilot.
王 Jamie 在中国出生长大，曾在瑞士和德国生活 获保罗·汤布林（持有私人飞行员执照，拥有高性能和复杂机型驾驶认证的PP-ASEL-IA飞行员）与戴维·塔西（拥有20年美国海军战斗机飞行员服役经历）
No it’s not.
It only looks like one.
Very simple:
See the intake (red line) and the gap between the intake and body?
It's called Caret inlet.
It's to separate the slower speed air of the boundary layer from entering the engine, which will cause the engine to surge.
Caret inlet was OK for jet fighters, until the 5th gen fighters need stealth ability.
The caret inlet contributes 89.8% of F-22’s front radar cross section.
I.E. around 90% of the size of an F-22 shown on radar is because of the inlet.
On F-35, they used a new design called diverterless supersonic inlet.
It’s simpler and lighter, and it makes the jet less obvious on radar.
F-22 was designed before the manufacturer obtain the ability to draw the correct shape of a DSI, and it would cause the body to be redesigned if they want to modify F-22.
So US military leave the F-22s as they are.
But it’s kind of a standard for 5th gen stealth fighter now:
The front RCS of F-35 is 0.0015 square meters.
For J-20, it’s 0.001 to 0.005 square meters. J-20 at its worst is 3 times big on radar comparing to F-35, and usually there is no significant difference if the RCS is within 10 times.
不是的，它只是看起来像第五代战斗机而已。
道理很简单：看到那个进气道（红线标注处）以及进气道与机身之间的缝隙了吗？这被称为“尖劈式进气道”（Caret inlet），其作用是阻止边界层内流速较慢的空气进入发动机，因为这些空气会导致发动机喘振。对于普通喷气式战斗机来说，尖劈式进气道是可行的，但到了需要具备隐身能力的第五代战斗机时代，这种设计就不行了。F-22战斗机前部雷达反射截面（RCS）的89.8%都来自于其尖劈式进气道，也就是说，F-22在雷达上显示的信号大小中，约90%都是由进气道造成的。而F-35采用了一种名为“无附面层隔道超音速进气道”（DSI）的新设计，这种设计更简单、更轻便，能让战斗机在雷达上的信号更不明显。F-22的设计早于制造商掌握DSI进气道正确外形设计技术的时间，如果要对F-22的进气道进行改造，就需要重新设计机身，因此美国军方决定不对F-22进行改动。但如今，无附面层隔道超音速进气道已成为第五代隐身战斗机的一种标配。F-35的前部雷达反射截面为0.0015平方米，歼-20的前部雷达反射截面则在0.001至0.005平方米之间。歼-20最差情况下的雷达反射截面是F-35的3倍，而通常来说，只要雷达反射截面差距在10倍以内，就不会有显著差异。
The estimation of KAAN’s front RCS is between 6.7 to 66 times of F-35, that’s 0.01 to 0.99 square meter. That’s better than F-16’s 0.1 to 1.5, but not significantly better than Rafale’s 0.06+/-0.02.
So from the outside, it’s at the best a 4.5 gen.
据估算，“KAAN”的前部雷达反射截面是F-35的6.7至66倍，即0.01至0.99平方米。这一数据虽然优于F-16的0.1至1.5平方米，但并不比“阵风”战斗机的0.06±0.02平方米有显著优势。因此，仅从外观设计来看，“KAAN”充其量只能算作4.5代战斗机。
Plus, I highly doubt from where should Turkey to purchase the avionics and engines…
Turkey claimed that it will develop a magical engine with 16 tons of thrust… judging by its previous experience being only 4.5 tons… I can only wish for a good luck.
此外，我非常怀疑土耳其能从哪里采购到适配的航空电子设备和发动机……土耳其声称将研发一款推力达16吨的高性能发动机，但从其之前最高仅能研发推力4.5吨发动机的经验来看，我只能祝它好运。
Michael X Knows Chinese Upvoted by Adrian Kruger, Qualified pilot with a PPL, student of all things Aviation.
迈克尔·X 懂中文 获阿德里安·克鲁格（持有私人飞行员执照的合格飞行员，航空领域全能学习者）
We don't know yet. The most challenging part for building a 5th gen, isn't how stealthy the shape is. The external shape is the easiest part, because it can be designed on a computer and run countless RCS simulations.
目前还无法确定。制造第五代战斗机最具挑战性的部分并非外形的隐身设计，外形设计反而是最容易的环节，因为可以通过计算机进行设计，并开展无数次雷达反射截面模拟测试。
The most challenging part is that, the production method changed. They can not be built with the same tools and methods used building a 4th gen. A lot of parts had to be forged under extreme pressure, or using very complex 3D printed structure, otherwise the fighter jet is going to flex, resulting in internal weapon bay couldn't open under extreme load. Only very few countries have those tools, they all built by themselves, and won't be exported.
最困难的在于生产方式的变革——第五代战斗机无法采用与第四代战斗机相同的工具和制造方法来生产。其许多零部件需要在极端压力下锻造，或是采用极为复杂的3D打印结构，否则战斗机在承受极端载荷时会发生形变，导致内置武器舱无法打开。拥有这类制造工具的国家寥寥无几，而且这些工具均为各国自主研发，不会对外出口。
It needs extremely large carbon fiber weaving machines for those wings, yet had to be designed by yourself. Good luck buying them.
The aircraft skin has to be produced in extreme large pieces and avoiding rivets as much as possible, even the riveting tool had to be re-designed. Building a production line for 5th gen aircraft are way more challenging than building the aircraft itself.
Let me stop here, skipping radar, engine, datalix...etc, but i hope people get the idea. Developing a 5th gen will easily cost hundreds of billions, making buying F35 from the US looks like a very cheap option.
So for KAAN, we don't know yet.
制造第五代战斗机的机翼需要超大型碳纤维编织机，而这类设备也必须自主设计，想通过采购获得难度极大。此外，机身蒙皮需要采用超大尺寸的整体构件制造，尽可能减少铆钉的使用，甚至连铆接工具都需要重新设计。建立一条第五代战斗机生产线的难度，远大于研发战斗机本身。这里我就不再赘述雷达、发动机、数据链等其他方面了，但希望大家能明白其中的关键：研发一款第五代战斗机很容易就会耗费数千亿美元，相比之下，从美国购买F-35反而成了非常便宜的选择。因此，对于“KAAN”是否属于真正的第五代战斗机，目前还无法给出定论。
Rodra Hascaryo Studied Aerospace and Aeronautical Engineering at University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Upvoted by Tunacan Gulec, lives in Turkey (1987-present) and Adrian Kruger, Qualified pilot with a PPL, student of all things Aviation. 1y
罗德拉·哈斯卡约 曾在伊利诺伊大学厄巴纳-香槟分校攻读航空航天工程专业 获图纳坎·古莱克（1987年至今居住于土耳其）与阿德里安·克鲁格（持有私人飞行员执照的合格飞行员，航空领域全能学习者）
First of all, to me, “5th generation” means “it’s stealthy”. Any other advanced features like data lix or AESA radar can be integrated to older jets, but “true” stealth like the F-22 and F-35 (as opposed to semi-stealthy features like those in the Rafale or Hornet) has to be designed from the start.
Looking at some info available (and the fact that Turkey was once a partner in the F-35 program), the claim seems pretty credible.
首先，在我看来，“第五代战斗机”的核心标志就是“具备隐身能力”。数据链、有源相控阵雷达等其他先进功能，都可以集成到较老旧的机型上，但像F-22和F-35那样的“真正隐身能力”（而非“阵风”或“大黄蜂”战斗机所具备的半隐身特性），必须从设计之初就进行整体规划。结合现有信息（以及土耳其曾是F-35项目合作伙伴这一事实）来看，土耳其声称“KAAN”是第五代战斗机的说法，似乎具有较高的可信度。
It looks like a cross between the F-35 and F-22. The mockups showed internal weapon bays on the sides, something non-negotiable if you want a stealthy airplane because those pylons and weapons can show up on radar. It’s roughly the same size as the F-22 (actually slightly bigger) although it weighs closer to the F-35, so it definitely can carry weapons internally.
“KAAN”的外形看起来像是F-35和F-22的结合体，其模型显示机身侧面设有内置武器舱——对于隐身战斗机而言，内置武器舱是必不可少的设计，因为外挂架和外挂武器会在雷达上产生明显信号。“KAAN”的尺寸与F-22大致相当（实际上略大一些），但重量更接近F-35，因此完全具备内置武器挂载能力。
Right now, their first models are going to use the same engines as the F-16 but they are developing new ones in cooperation with Rolls-Royce. Since engines contributes to stealth, it might mean that it might not as stealthy as the F-35, but it’s better than the likes of F-16.
As for stealth coating, the same facility that was commissioned to make F-35 fuselages are now being used to make it for this airplane, so chances are, they know what they’re doing and will probably deliver.
So maybe Turkey is going to be the third country to make stealth fighter jets on their own after US and China (Russia’s Su-57 doesn’t count).
目前，“KAAN”的首批原型机将采用与F-16相同的发动机，但土耳其正与劳斯莱斯公司合作研发新型发动机。由于发动机性能也会影响隐身效果，这意味着“KAAN”的隐身能力可能不及F-35，但肯定优于F-16这类机型。在隐身涂层方面，此前负责生产F-35机身的工厂如今已开始为“KAAN”制造相关部件
因此土耳其很可能掌握了隐身涂层的相关技术，并且有望顺利应用到“KAAN”上。如此看来，土耳其或许将成为继美国和中国之后，第三个能够自主研发隐身战斗机的国家（俄罗斯的苏-57不算在内）。
BORIS Business Owner Investor at Luxury Property Developments 1y
鲍里斯 豪华房地产开发领域企业主、投资者
As a Russian Aerospace Engineer with Phd degree from caltech I can definetely say that Turks are in good path because without help of BAE it would be just a daydream even leading manufacturers like safran rolls royce etc. Struggle due to combined obstacles e.g. Programme cost budget constraints Scarcity of key resources and High R&D costs Comonality and adaptability of existing and new markets barrier entry Politics etc. etc. You may add more.
作为一名拥有加州理工学院博士学位的俄罗斯航空航天工程师，我可以明确地说，土耳其在研发“KAAN”的道路上进展顺利，但如果没有英国宇航系统公司（BAE）的帮助，这一切都将是白日梦。即便像赛峰、劳斯莱斯等顶尖制造商，也会因各种综合障碍而举步维艰，比如项目成本超支、预算受限、关键资源稀缺、研发成本高昂、现有及新兴市场的通用性与适应性问题、市场准入壁垒以及政治因素等等，类似的障碍还有很多。
Also Note that F16 multirole is currently cheapest(you can check the comparsion data its awailable I dunno exactly)to Operate fighter jet with high commonality that's why Turks and Greeks (btw Greece has the biggest fleet of F16 in the World) its for them plausible and well defined strategy.
Another important issue is the supposed price I read that it nominal unit price will be 100mil USD Its too much and its definetely failed Business like F35.
另外需要注意的是，F-16多用途战斗机是目前运营成本最低的机型之一（具体数据可查询相关对比资料，我记不太准确了），而且零部件通用性高。这也是土耳其和希腊（顺便提一句，希腊拥有全球规模最大的F-16机群）选择装备该机型的合理且明确的战略考量。
另一个重要问题是“KAAN”的预期价格，我了解到其名义单价将达到1亿美元，这个价格过高，其商业前景必然会像F-35一样惨淡。
In comparison such newly entrant in these business Turkey therefore it has quite low credibility,even if she is NATO Member we have to look from a Marketing perspective if another Manufacturer let say USA or Europe offer cheaper price than the given buyer will do its best to purchase since as we all know politics unfortunately play higher roles than a technology or trade combined all together therefore it seems to be only for own use and non export 。
相比之下，土耳其作为航空制造领域的新入局者，可信度相当低。即便它是北约成员国，从市场营销的角度来看，如果其他制造商（比如美国或欧洲的厂商）能提供更低的价格，采购方肯定会优先选择购买。因为我们都知道，不幸的是，政治因素的影响力远超技术或贸易本身。因此，“KAAN”似乎很可能仅用于土耳其本国军方，不具备出口潜力。
intended again its highly expensive job for such Economically miserable country like Turkey for example we had Summer Residency as you know we Russians like so much unfortunately but we choose not to go to Turkey since its extremely expensive in comparison to make Holiday in Spain Italy(we have German Citizenship)or another place to take holiday after long exhausting work and winter season let alone live in this Country.
而对于土耳其这样经济状况糟糕的国家来说，研发这款战斗机无疑是一项代价极高的工程。举个例子，众所周知，我们俄罗斯人原本非常喜欢去土耳其度过暑期，但今年我们家却选择不去了，因为相比之下，去西班牙、意大利度假（我们持有德国公民身份）或其他地方放松要便宜得多——毕竟经过漫长繁忙的工作和寒冬，我们需要的是度假，更不用说在土耳其长期生活了。
I gave that small example from my family because I As a Russian Businessman who is over 40 married with kids and loads of International experience both life work and Education and as Scholar Educator.
我之所以举这个家庭中的小例子，是因为我作为一名40多岁、已婚有孩的俄罗斯商人，在生活、工作、教育等方面都拥有丰富的国际经验，同时也是一名学者和教育工作者。
Economically collapsed country such as Turkey tries it best to show up its military power via catapulting itsself from nothing to gen 5 fighter jet level nothing in our World is impossible but Economically miserable country like Turkey does exactly the same mistakes of our Soviet unx people need salaries,availability of products purchasing power and a possibility a path for better life instead of show people need at the first glance Soviet unx made huge mistakes by doing so and failed due to inertness of aforementioned issues and Turks exactly trying nowadays doing the same mistake.
像土耳其这样经济濒临崩溃的国家，试图通过跨越式发展，从几乎没有基础的状态直接迈向第五代战斗机研发水平，以此彰显其军事实力。虽然世界上没有绝对不可能的事情，但土耳其这种经济困窘的国家，正在重蹈苏联的覆辙。民众首先需要的是薪水、充足的商品供应、购买力以及通往更好生活的途径，而非空洞的“展示”。苏联当年正是因为忽视了这些民生需求，犯下了严重错误，最终因上述问题积重难返而解体。如今，土耳其正在犯同样的错误。
1 2 Lived in Air Headquarters, Islamabad, Pakistan (2021–2023) 1y
1 2 2021-2023年居住于巴基斯坦伊斯兰堡空军总部
The first block of KAAN will not be a 5th gen aircraft but rather a advanced 4.5 gen aircraft. Definitely more advanced than Rafales and Eurofighters.
The 5th gen block of KAAN will be KAAN Blk1. This block will have internal weapons bay hence making it a true 5th gen aircraft. This aircraft will be similar to F-35s. This block will have sensor fusion, manned/unmanned teaming, advanced HMDs, supercruse and many more making it a feared opponent in the battlefield.
“KAAN”战斗机的首个批次（Block 0）并非第五代战斗机，而是一款先进的4.5代战斗机，但肯定比“阵风”和“台风”战斗机更先进。“KAAN”的第五代机型批次将是“KAAN Blk1”，该批次机型将配备内置武器舱，因此堪称真正的第五代战斗机，性能与F-35相近。此外，“KAAN Blk1”还将具备传感器融合、有人-无人协同作战、先进头盔显示系统、超音速巡航等多种先进功能，使其成为战场上令人生畏的对手。
Jim Walt 1y
吉姆·沃尔特
lets assume it is not let say its 4.5++generation with some stealth characters, even then , it is an paramount technical and industrial Achievement for the Turks , especially if they manage to design and build their own jet engine , form history we can say the design and development process will not be easy and smooth ,but unlike the MBT altay program the Turks have huge experience in building f16 , in fact at the end if its turn out to be 4 gen at f16 level it is still an achievement that no other regional and view global powers can say they have done it or they can doit , so go Turkey…
即便我们假设它不是第五代战斗机，比如称其为具备部分隐身特性的4.5++代战斗机，对于土耳其而言，这依然是一项极其重大的技术和工业成就，尤其是如果他们能成功自主设计并制造出喷气发动机的话。从历史经验来看，战斗机的设计和研发过程绝非一帆风顺，但与“阿尔泰”主战坦克项目不同，土耳其在制造F-16战斗机方面拥有丰富的经验。事实上，即便最终这款机型仅达到F-16水平的第四代战斗机标准，这仍然是一项诸多地区性力量乃至部分全球性力量都无法企及或宣称能够实现的成就，所以，土耳其加油……
Peter Don Konics II Former Officer/Fighter Pilot at The United States of America (1966–1972) 1y
彼得·唐·科尼克斯二世 美国前军官/战斗机飞行员（1966-1972年）
ME! Who cares, Mehmet!? It is not the machine/generation that is the most important; it is the PILOT/AIRCREW/WEAPONS OPERATORS! And where they come from and how they are raised. Societies have built-in cultural weaknesses and strengths in everything they do/build/use! My generation was crude, rude, and profane. Yet, gentlemen officers, ‘” seeking to be the best they could be” from different “walks of life.” Then, the “not-so-United States of America” had the advantage in attitude and weapons when actual men and women were predominant within their societal roles. Thus, combining natural male aggression/mechanical aptitude and female birthing, supporting, protecting, and reminding both of the “reasons why” of living a life worth living and protecting it! When I was in basic pilot training during the 1960s, Saudi princes were being trained as pilots at our base. During the winter, it was usual to see ice forming on the leading edge of our T-38’s wings when climbing out during take-off. It was only innocuous rime ice that evaporated as we passed through ten thousand feet. But one day, a Saudi pilot panicked at the sight of the ice on his wings and ejected himself and his “What the…!” shouting instructor. The not-panicking aircraft did what it was supposed to do: continued flying to a soft landing in an empty, snow-covered, cotton-growing field. America is a place/concept which does not guarantee us individual successes in our lifetimes. But it does allow us the opportunity to achieve our dreams—if we are willing to live and continue paying the price of achieving them!
我才不在乎呢，穆罕默德！最重要的根本不是战机本身或它属于第几代，而是飞行员、机组人员和武器操作员！以及他们来自哪里、是如何成长起来的。社会在其从事的事业、制造的物品、使用的工具中，都蕴含着固有的文化短板与优势！我们那一代人粗俗、无礼，还满口脏话，但那些出身各行各业的军官们，却都秉持着“力求做到最好”的信念，堪称绅士。那时的美国虽称不上“团结一致”，但当人们还能在社会中各司其职、发挥主导作用时，整个国家在态度和武器方面都具备优势。正是这种优势，将男性天生的攻击性与机械天赋，同女性的生育、支持、保护能力，以及让所有人铭记“为何要过有价值的生活并守护它”的初心结合在了一起！20世纪60年代我参加基础飞行员训练时，有沙特王子在我们基地接受飞行员培训。冬天，我们驾驶T-38教练机起飞爬升时，机翼前缘常常会结冰，不过那只是无害的雾凇，飞到一万英尺高度时就会蒸发。可某天，一名沙特飞行员看到机翼结冰后惊慌失措，直接弹射逃生，还连累了他那大喊“搞什么……！”的教官。而那架没有“恐慌”的飞机，则按其设计初衷继续飞行，最终在一片空旷的、积雪覆盖的棉花地里平稳着陆。美国这个国家、这个概念，无法保证我们每个人在一生中都能取得成功，但它给了我们实现梦想的机会——前提是我们愿意为之坚持，并持续付出努力。
Redneck Picard Former Geologist at United States Geological Survey (USGS) (1994–2012)
雷德尼克·皮卡德 美国地质调查局（USGS）前地质学家（1994-2012年）
It is hard to say. From the spec sheet and photos, it can pass be passed off as a G5 fighter. But given Turkey’s relative lack of aviation expertise and fighter design and manufacturing, and its comparatively weak industrial base, it seems reasonable to suppose the Turks will struggle to make it fully competitive with other country’s G5 fighter without extensive foreign support.
很难说。从技术规格表和照片来看，它勉强能被当作第五代战斗机。但考虑到土耳其在航空专业知识、战斗机设计与制造方面相对欠缺，且工业基础较为薄弱，有理由认为，如果没有大量外部支持，土耳其将难以使其（“KAAN”战斗机）与其他国家的第五代战斗机具备完全的竞争力。
Tolga Karakaya International Politics
托尔加·卡拉卡亚 研究国际政治领域
No. For now, it can be considered a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft. The most important equipment for an aircraft to be considered a 5th generation fighter jet is the engine it uses. Turkey is a country that has the capacity to produce jet engines locally, but the product we call Crystal Turbine jet engine is on a very different level. Even in the world, the number of companies that can produce this engine can be counted on the fingers of one hand. That's why Turkey has a long way to go.
不是的。目前来看，“KAAN”只能被归为4.5代战斗机。一款战机要被认定为第五代战斗机，其最关键的装备便是所使用的发动机。土耳其虽然具备自主生产喷气发动机的能力，但我们所说的“单晶涡轮喷气发动机”（此处“Crystal Turbine jet engine”结合上下文应为“单晶涡轮喷气发动机”，即single crystal turbine jet engine）属于完全不同的技术层级。即便在全球范围内，能够生产这种发动机的公司也屈指可数。因此，土耳其要实现真正的第五代战斗机研发目标，还有很长的路要走。
ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΣΚΟΡΔΟΣ Former MECHANICAL ENGINEER at O.S.Y. (1981–2012) 1y
尼科拉奥斯·斯科尔佐斯 希腊国家造船公司（O.S.Y.）前机械工程师（1981-2012年） 1年前
Turkey has three strong advantages when it comes to the production of industrial products.
1) very high availability of unskilled labor due to large population.
2) large energy availability from Azerbaijan
3) insufficient and ineffective scientific and technological personnel.
在工业产品生产方面，土耳其拥有三项显著“优势”：
1. 人口规模庞大，可提供大量非技术劳动力；
2. 能从阿塞拜疆获取充足的能源；
3. 科技人才数量不足且能力有限。
So, based on the above, large technology companies from the United States and Europe, have sent thousands of their technicians to Turkey and are already producing ready-made solutions mainly of weapons systems.
In Turkey, weapons systems are being developed in about one or two years, the research, development and production of which in their original countries took several decades.
The weapons systems are not developed by Turkish technicians, but by the armies of European and American technicians and scientists.
In the case of KAAN, we see an attempt to continue and improve the F35 fighter in Turkey, given that in the US it is almost impossible to continue the production and improvement of the F35 fighter.
基于上述情况，来自美国和欧洲的大型科技公司已向土耳其派遣了数千名技术人员，目前正主要在土耳其生产武器系统的现成解决方案。
在土耳其，一些武器系统的研发周期仅需一到两年，而这些武器系统在其原产国（欧美国家）的研发和生产曾耗费了数十年时间。
这些武器系统并非由土耳其技术人员研发，而是由大批欧美技术人员和科学家研发的。
就“KAAN”战斗机而言，考虑到美国几乎已无法继续F-35战斗机的生产与改进工作，我们看到的是土耳其在试图延续并改进F-35战斗机的技术路线。
Eleftheriou Dorotheos-Vasileios MRes in Synthetic Biology, University College London (UCL) (Graduated 2011) 1y
埃莱夫塞里乌·多罗西奥斯-瓦西利奥斯 伦敦大学学院（UCL）合成生物学硕士（2011年毕业）
Yes! It is analogue to the F-22. The USA gave to Turkey the know how to built a 5th Generation fighter since Turkey is the most important ally in NATO. Initially Turkey was to build the F-35. Since Turkey decided to step out from the F-35 program USA gave her the blueprints to build TXF/KAAN. Regarding the other facts about the “disagreement” between USA and Turkey… It was a little Diplomatic theatre to convince Russia to sell to Turkey the S-400 system and then Turkey let the American experts find out critical information about the S-400, as to how it locks etc…
是的！“KAAN”战斗机与F-22类似。由于土耳其是北约最重要的盟友，美国向土耳其提供了制造第五代战斗机的技术诀窍。最初，土耳其本计划参与制造F-35战斗机。后来，在土耳其决定退出F-35项目后，美国向其提供了制造TXF/KAAN战斗机的设计蓝图。至于美土之间“存在分歧”等其他说法……那不过是一场小小的外交表演，目的是说服俄罗斯向土耳其出售S-400防空系统，之后土耳其再让美国专家获取关于S-400的关键信息，比如该系统的锁定机制等。
土耳其战斗机“KAAN”真的是第5代吗？
Mehmet Emin Engineer Upvoted by Colin Guest, lives in Turkey (1988-present) 1y
穆罕默德·埃明 工程师 获科林·格斯特（1988年至今居住于土耳其）
In order to answer this question, it is necessary to understand Türkiye's aircraft production ability and capacity.
Contrary to popular belief, Türkiye's aviation adventure goes back a long way. Nu.D 36 aircraft ordered by the Netherlands in 1936 and Thk-5 aircraft exported to Denmark are examples of these.
Turkish defense industry has been developing rapidly in recent years. Türkiye produces its own tanks, planes, jets, helicopters and the engines of these vehicles.
So, despite all this, does the Turkish defense industry have the ability to produce a real 5th generation fighter jet?
The biggest obstacle to making a jet is undoubtedly making a its engine. The biggest challenge in making a jet engine is making single crystal turbine blades. TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries) CEO Temel Kotil announced that Türkiye achieved this.
As it is known, helicopter engines are actually jet engines. Türkiye has successfully flown using its own production engines in its own Gokbey helicopter.
There are various types of jet engines produced by Türkiye.
Türkiye produces aircraft parts for Boeing and Airbus companies. It is one of the manufacturers of F-35 and hundreds of F-16 were produced in Türkiye.
要回答这个问题，有必要了解土耳其的飞机生产能力。与普遍看法相反，土耳其的航空探索历史十分悠久。1936年荷兰订购的Nu.D 36飞机以及出口到丹麦的Thk-5飞机就是例证。近年来，土耳其国防工业发展迅速，能够自主生产坦克、固定翼飞机、喷气式战斗机、直升机以及这些装备的发动机。那么，尽管取得了这些成就，土耳其国防工业是否有能力生产出真正的第五代战斗机呢？制造喷气式战斗机最大的障碍无疑是发动机制造，而制造喷气发动机的最大挑战在于单晶涡轮叶片的生产。土耳其航空航天工业公司（TAI）首席执行官泰梅尔·科蒂尔宣布，土耳其已成功攻克这一难题。众所周知，直升机发动机本质上也是喷气发动机，土耳其的“戈克贝伊”直升机已成功使用自主生产的发动机实现飞行。土耳其生产的喷气发动机种类多样，还为波音和空客公司生产飞机零部件，同时也是F-35战斗机的制造商之一，并且已在本国生产了数百架F-16战斗机。
In addition, Türkiye has its own light attack and training aircraft called Hurjet.
In Kaan, almost all parts and systems such as canopy, landing gear, avionic systems, all weapon systems, AESA radar are produced domestically. Only the ejection seat and engines were imported. TAI CEO Temel Kotil said today that the engines of the first aircraft to be delivered to the Turkish Armed Forces will be domestically produced and the aircraft will be delivered in 2028 at the latest. This date coincides with a date even earlier than the date on which the F-35s, which were not given to Türkiye due to a betrayal by the USA and announced to be given to Greece, will be delivered to Greece.
此外，土耳其拥有自主研发的“胡尔捷特”轻型攻击机和教练机。在“KAAN”战斗机上，座舱盖、起落架、航空电子系统、所有武器系统、有源相控阵（AESA）雷达等几乎所有零部件和系统均实现国产化，仅弹射座椅和发动机为进口。土耳其航空航天工业公司首席执行官泰梅尔·科蒂尔近日表示，首批交付给土耳其武装部队的“KAAN”战斗机，其发动机将实现国产化，且该机型最迟将于2028年交付。这一交付时间甚至早于美国因背信弃义未交付给土耳其、转而宣布要交付给希腊的F-35战斗机的预计交付时间。
The fact that Türkiye is NATO's second largest army, that it uses NATO weapon systems, that it produces in accordance with NATO standards, and that it is a supplier of parts and weapon systems to NATO countries proves that it is a respected arms manufacturer.
So, Türkiye has become the 4th country in the world that can produce 5th generation jet aircraft, after the USA, Russia and China.
土耳其作为北约第二大军队，不仅使用北约武器系统、按北约标准进行生产，还是北约国家的零部件和武器系统供应商，这些事实都证明它是一家受尊重的武器制造商。因此，土耳其已成为继美国、俄罗斯和中国之后，全球第四个有能力生产第五代喷气式战斗机的国家。
Jamie Wang Born and raised in China, had lived in Swiss and Germany Upvoted by Paul Tomblin, Licensed private pilot. PP-ASEL-IA with high performance and complex endorsements. and David Tussey, 20 yrs as a US Navy fighter pilot.
王 Jamie 在中国出生长大，曾在瑞士和德国生活 获保罗·汤布林（持有私人飞行员执照，拥有高性能和复杂机型驾驶认证的PP-ASEL-IA飞行员）与戴维·塔西（拥有20年美国海军战斗机飞行员服役经历）
No it’s not.
It only looks like one.
Very simple:
See the intake (red line) and the gap between the intake and body?
It's called Caret inlet.
It's to separate the slower speed air of the boundary layer from entering the engine, which will cause the engine to surge.
Caret inlet was OK for jet fighters, until the 5th gen fighters need stealth ability.
The caret inlet contributes 89.8% of F-22’s front radar cross section.
I.E. around 90% of the size of an F-22 shown on radar is because of the inlet.
On F-35, they used a new design called diverterless supersonic inlet.
It’s simpler and lighter, and it makes the jet less obvious on radar.
F-22 was designed before the manufacturer obtain the ability to draw the correct shape of a DSI, and it would cause the body to be redesigned if they want to modify F-22.
So US military leave the F-22s as they are.
But it’s kind of a standard for 5th gen stealth fighter now:
The front RCS of F-35 is 0.0015 square meters.
For J-20, it’s 0.001 to 0.005 square meters. J-20 at its worst is 3 times big on radar comparing to F-35, and usually there is no significant difference if the RCS is within 10 times.
不是的，它只是看起来像第五代战斗机而已。
道理很简单：看到那个进气道（红线标注处）以及进气道与机身之间的缝隙了吗？这被称为“尖劈式进气道”（Caret inlet），其作用是阻止边界层内流速较慢的空气进入发动机，因为这些空气会导致发动机喘振。对于普通喷气式战斗机来说，尖劈式进气道是可行的，但到了需要具备隐身能力的第五代战斗机时代，这种设计就不行了。F-22战斗机前部雷达反射截面（RCS）的89.8%都来自于其尖劈式进气道，也就是说，F-22在雷达上显示的信号大小中，约90%都是由进气道造成的。而F-35采用了一种名为“无附面层隔道超音速进气道”（DSI）的新设计，这种设计更简单、更轻便，能让战斗机在雷达上的信号更不明显。F-22的设计早于制造商掌握DSI进气道正确外形设计技术的时间，如果要对F-22的进气道进行改造，就需要重新设计机身，因此美国军方决定不对F-22进行改动。但如今，无附面层隔道超音速进气道已成为第五代隐身战斗机的一种标配。F-35的前部雷达反射截面为0.0015平方米，歼-20的前部雷达反射截面则在0.001至0.005平方米之间。歼-20最差情况下的雷达反射截面是F-35的3倍，而通常来说，只要雷达反射截面差距在10倍以内，就不会有显著差异。
The estimation of KAAN’s front RCS is between 6.7 to 66 times of F-35, that’s 0.01 to 0.99 square meter. That’s better than F-16’s 0.1 to 1.5, but not significantly better than Rafale’s 0.06+/-0.02.
So from the outside, it’s at the best a 4.5 gen.
据估算，“KAAN”的前部雷达反射截面是F-35的6.7至66倍，即0.01至0.99平方米。这一数据虽然优于F-16的0.1至1.5平方米，但并不比“阵风”战斗机的0.06±0.02平方米有显著优势。因此，仅从外观设计来看，“KAAN”充其量只能算作4.5代战斗机。
Plus, I highly doubt from where should Turkey to purchase the avionics and engines…
Turkey claimed that it will develop a magical engine with 16 tons of thrust… judging by its previous experience being only 4.5 tons… I can only wish for a good luck.
此外，我非常怀疑土耳其能从哪里采购到适配的航空电子设备和发动机……土耳其声称将研发一款推力达16吨的高性能发动机，但从其之前最高仅能研发推力4.5吨发动机的经验来看，我只能祝它好运。
Michael X Knows Chinese Upvoted by Adrian Kruger, Qualified pilot with a PPL, student of all things Aviation.
迈克尔·X 懂中文 获阿德里安·克鲁格（持有私人飞行员执照的合格飞行员，航空领域全能学习者）
We don't know yet. The most challenging part for building a 5th gen, isn't how stealthy the shape is. The external shape is the easiest part, because it can be designed on a computer and run countless RCS simulations.
目前还无法确定。制造第五代战斗机最具挑战性的部分并非外形的隐身设计，外形设计反而是最容易的环节，因为可以通过计算机进行设计，并开展无数次雷达反射截面模拟测试。
The most challenging part is that, the production method changed. They can not be built with the same tools and methods used building a 4th gen. A lot of parts had to be forged under extreme pressure, or using very complex 3D printed structure, otherwise the fighter jet is going to flex, resulting in internal weapon bay couldn't open under extreme load. Only very few countries have those tools, they all built by themselves, and won't be exported.
最困难的在于生产方式的变革——第五代战斗机无法采用与第四代战斗机相同的工具和制造方法来生产。其许多零部件需要在极端压力下锻造，或是采用极为复杂的3D打印结构，否则战斗机在承受极端载荷时会发生形变，导致内置武器舱无法打开。拥有这类制造工具的国家寥寥无几，而且这些工具均为各国自主研发，不会对外出口。
It needs extremely large carbon fiber weaving machines for those wings, yet had to be designed by yourself. Good luck buying them.
The aircraft skin has to be produced in extreme large pieces and avoiding rivets as much as possible, even the riveting tool had to be re-designed. Building a production line for 5th gen aircraft are way more challenging than building the aircraft itself.
Let me stop here, skipping radar, engine, datalix...etc, but i hope people get the idea. Developing a 5th gen will easily cost hundreds of billions, making buying F35 from the US looks like a very cheap option.
So for KAAN, we don't know yet.
制造第五代战斗机的机翼需要超大型碳纤维编织机，而这类设备也必须自主设计，想通过采购获得难度极大。此外，机身蒙皮需要采用超大尺寸的整体构件制造，尽可能减少铆钉的使用，甚至连铆接工具都需要重新设计。建立一条第五代战斗机生产线的难度，远大于研发战斗机本身。这里我就不再赘述雷达、发动机、数据链等其他方面了，但希望大家能明白其中的关键：研发一款第五代战斗机很容易就会耗费数千亿美元，相比之下，从美国购买F-35反而成了非常便宜的选择。因此，对于“KAAN”是否属于真正的第五代战斗机，目前还无法给出定论。
Rodra Hascaryo Studied Aerospace and Aeronautical Engineering at University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Upvoted by Tunacan Gulec, lives in Turkey (1987-present) and Adrian Kruger, Qualified pilot with a PPL, student of all things Aviation. 1y
罗德拉·哈斯卡约 曾在伊利诺伊大学厄巴纳-香槟分校攻读航空航天工程专业 获图纳坎·古莱克（1987年至今居住于土耳其）与阿德里安·克鲁格（持有私人飞行员执照的合格飞行员，航空领域全能学习者）
First of all, to me, “5th generation” means “it’s stealthy”. Any other advanced features like data lix or AESA radar can be integrated to older jets, but “true” stealth like the F-22 and F-35 (as opposed to semi-stealthy features like those in the Rafale or Hornet) has to be designed from the start.
Looking at some info available (and the fact that Turkey was once a partner in the F-35 program), the claim seems pretty credible.
首先，在我看来，“第五代战斗机”的核心标志就是“具备隐身能力”。数据链、有源相控阵雷达等其他先进功能，都可以集成到较老旧的机型上，但像F-22和F-35那样的“真正隐身能力”（而非“阵风”或“大黄蜂”战斗机所具备的半隐身特性），必须从设计之初就进行整体规划。结合现有信息（以及土耳其曾是F-35项目合作伙伴这一事实）来看，土耳其声称“KAAN”是第五代战斗机的说法，似乎具有较高的可信度。
It looks like a cross between the F-35 and F-22. The mockups showed internal weapon bays on the sides, something non-negotiable if you want a stealthy airplane because those pylons and weapons can show up on radar. It’s roughly the same size as the F-22 (actually slightly bigger) although it weighs closer to the F-35, so it definitely can carry weapons internally.
“KAAN”的外形看起来像是F-35和F-22的结合体，其模型显示机身侧面设有内置武器舱——对于隐身战斗机而言，内置武器舱是必不可少的设计，因为外挂架和外挂武器会在雷达上产生明显信号。“KAAN”的尺寸与F-22大致相当（实际上略大一些），但重量更接近F-35，因此完全具备内置武器挂载能力。
Right now, their first models are going to use the same engines as the F-16 but they are developing new ones in cooperation with Rolls-Royce. Since engines contributes to stealth, it might mean that it might not as stealthy as the F-35, but it’s better than the likes of F-16.
As for stealth coating, the same facility that was commissioned to make F-35 fuselages are now being used to make it for this airplane, so chances are, they know what they’re doing and will probably deliver.
So maybe Turkey is going to be the third country to make stealth fighter jets on their own after US and China (Russia’s Su-57 doesn’t count).
目前，“KAAN”的首批原型机将采用与F-16相同的发动机，但土耳其正与劳斯莱斯公司合作研发新型发动机。由于发动机性能也会影响隐身效果，这意味着“KAAN”的隐身能力可能不及F-35，但肯定优于F-16这类机型。在隐身涂层方面，此前负责生产F-35机身的工厂如今已开始为“KAAN”制造相关部件
因此土耳其很可能掌握了隐身涂层的相关技术，并且有望顺利应用到“KAAN”上。如此看来，土耳其或许将成为继美国和中国之后，第三个能够自主研发隐身战斗机的国家（俄罗斯的苏-57不算在内）。
BORIS Business Owner Investor at Luxury Property Developments 1y
鲍里斯 豪华房地产开发领域企业主、投资者
As a Russian Aerospace Engineer with Phd degree from caltech I can definetely say that Turks are in good path because without help of BAE it would be just a daydream even leading manufacturers like safran rolls royce etc. Struggle due to combined obstacles e.g. Programme cost budget constraints Scarcity of key resources and High R&D costs Comonality and adaptability of existing and new markets barrier entry Politics etc. etc. You may add more.
作为一名拥有加州理工学院博士学位的俄罗斯航空航天工程师，我可以明确地说，土耳其在研发“KAAN”的道路上进展顺利，但如果没有英国宇航系统公司（BAE）的帮助，这一切都将是白日梦。即便像赛峰、劳斯莱斯等顶尖制造商，也会因各种综合障碍而举步维艰，比如项目成本超支、预算受限、关键资源稀缺、研发成本高昂、现有及新兴市场的通用性与适应性问题、市场准入壁垒以及政治因素等等，类似的障碍还有很多。
Also Note that F16 multirole is currently cheapest(you can check the comparsion data its awailable I dunno exactly)to Operate fighter jet with high commonality that's why Turks and Greeks (btw Greece has the biggest fleet of F16 in the World) its for them plausible and well defined strategy.
Another important issue is the supposed price I read that it nominal unit price will be 100mil USD Its too much and its definetely failed Business like F35.
另外需要注意的是，F-16多用途战斗机是目前运营成本最低的机型之一（具体数据可查询相关对比资料，我记不太准确了），而且零部件通用性高。这也是土耳其和希腊（顺便提一句，希腊拥有全球规模最大的F-16机群）选择装备该机型的合理且明确的战略考量。
另一个重要问题是“KAAN”的预期价格，我了解到其名义单价将达到1亿美元，这个价格过高，其商业前景必然会像F-35一样惨淡。
In comparison such newly entrant in these business Turkey therefore it has quite low credibility,even if she is NATO Member we have to look from a Marketing perspective if another Manufacturer let say USA or Europe offer cheaper price than the given buyer will do its best to purchase since as we all know politics unfortunately play higher roles than a technology or trade combined all together therefore it seems to be only for own use and non export 。
相比之下，土耳其作为航空制造领域的新入局者，可信度相当低。即便它是北约成员国，从市场营销的角度来看，如果其他制造商（比如美国或欧洲的厂商）能提供更低的价格，采购方肯定会优先选择购买。因为我们都知道，不幸的是，政治因素的影响力远超技术或贸易本身。因此，“KAAN”似乎很可能仅用于土耳其本国军方，不具备出口潜力。
intended again its highly expensive job for such Economically miserable country like Turkey for example we had Summer Residency as you know we Russians like so much unfortunately but we choose not to go to Turkey since its extremely expensive in comparison to make Holiday in Spain Italy(we have German Citizenship)or another place to take holiday after long exhausting work and winter season let alone live in this Country.
而对于土耳其这样经济状况糟糕的国家来说，研发这款战斗机无疑是一项代价极高的工程。举个例子，众所周知，我们俄罗斯人原本非常喜欢去土耳其度过暑期，但今年我们家却选择不去了，因为相比之下，去西班牙、意大利度假（我们持有德国公民身份）或其他地方放松要便宜得多——毕竟经过漫长繁忙的工作和寒冬，我们需要的是度假，更不用说在土耳其长期生活了。
I gave that small example from my family because I As a Russian Businessman who is over 40 married with kids and loads of International experience both life work and Education and as Scholar Educator.
我之所以举这个家庭中的小例子，是因为我作为一名40多岁、已婚有孩的俄罗斯商人，在生活、工作、教育等方面都拥有丰富的国际经验，同时也是一名学者和教育工作者。
Economically collapsed country such as Turkey tries it best to show up its military power via catapulting itsself from nothing to gen 5 fighter jet level nothing in our World is impossible but Economically miserable country like Turkey does exactly the same mistakes of our Soviet unx people need salaries,availability of products purchasing power and a possibility a path for better life instead of show people need at the first glance Soviet unx made huge mistakes by doing so and failed due to inertness of aforementioned issues and Turks exactly trying nowadays doing the same mistake.
像土耳其这样经济濒临崩溃的国家，试图通过跨越式发展，从几乎没有基础的状态直接迈向第五代战斗机研发水平，以此彰显其军事实力。虽然世界上没有绝对不可能的事情，但土耳其这种经济困窘的国家，正在重蹈苏联的覆辙。民众首先需要的是薪水、充足的商品供应、购买力以及通往更好生活的途径，而非空洞的“展示”。苏联当年正是因为忽视了这些民生需求，犯下了严重错误，最终因上述问题积重难返而解体。如今，土耳其正在犯同样的错误。
1 2 Lived in Air Headquarters, Islamabad, Pakistan (2021–2023) 1y
1 2 2021-2023年居住于巴基斯坦伊斯兰堡空军总部
The first block of KAAN will not be a 5th gen aircraft but rather a advanced 4.5 gen aircraft. Definitely more advanced than Rafales and Eurofighters.
The 5th gen block of KAAN will be KAAN Blk1. This block will have internal weapons bay hence making it a true 5th gen aircraft. This aircraft will be similar to F-35s. This block will have sensor fusion, manned/unmanned teaming, advanced HMDs, supercruse and many more making it a feared opponent in the battlefield.
“KAAN”战斗机的首个批次（Block 0）并非第五代战斗机，而是一款先进的4.5代战斗机，但肯定比“阵风”和“台风”战斗机更先进。“KAAN”的第五代机型批次将是“KAAN Blk1”，该批次机型将配备内置武器舱，因此堪称真正的第五代战斗机，性能与F-35相近。此外，“KAAN Blk1”还将具备传感器融合、有人-无人协同作战、先进头盔显示系统、超音速巡航等多种先进功能，使其成为战场上令人生畏的对手。
Jim Walt 1y
吉姆·沃尔特
lets assume it is not let say its 4.5++generation with some stealth characters, even then , it is an paramount technical and industrial Achievement for the Turks , especially if they manage to design and build their own jet engine , form history we can say the design and development process will not be easy and smooth ,but unlike the MBT altay program the Turks have huge experience in building f16 , in fact at the end if its turn out to be 4 gen at f16 level it is still an achievement that no other regional and view global powers can say they have done it or they can doit , so go Turkey…
即便我们假设它不是第五代战斗机，比如称其为具备部分隐身特性的4.5++代战斗机，对于土耳其而言，这依然是一项极其重大的技术和工业成就，尤其是如果他们能成功自主设计并制造出喷气发动机的话。从历史经验来看，战斗机的设计和研发过程绝非一帆风顺，但与“阿尔泰”主战坦克项目不同，土耳其在制造F-16战斗机方面拥有丰富的经验。事实上，即便最终这款机型仅达到F-16水平的第四代战斗机标准，这仍然是一项诸多地区性力量乃至部分全球性力量都无法企及或宣称能够实现的成就，所以，土耳其加油……
Peter Don Konics II Former Officer/Fighter Pilot at The United States of America (1966–1972) 1y
彼得·唐·科尼克斯二世 美国前军官/战斗机飞行员（1966-1972年）
ME! Who cares, Mehmet!? It is not the machine/generation that is the most important; it is the PILOT/AIRCREW/WEAPONS OPERATORS! And where they come from and how they are raised. Societies have built-in cultural weaknesses and strengths in everything they do/build/use! My generation was crude, rude, and profane. Yet, gentlemen officers, ‘” seeking to be the best they could be” from different “walks of life.” Then, the “not-so-United States of America” had the advantage in attitude and weapons when actual men and women were predominant within their societal roles. Thus, combining natural male aggression/mechanical aptitude and female birthing, supporting, protecting, and reminding both of the “reasons why” of living a life worth living and protecting it! When I was in basic pilot training during the 1960s, Saudi princes were being trained as pilots at our base. During the winter, it was usual to see ice forming on the leading edge of our T-38’s wings when climbing out during take-off. It was only innocuous rime ice that evaporated as we passed through ten thousand feet. But one day, a Saudi pilot panicked at the sight of the ice on his wings and ejected himself and his “What the…!” shouting instructor. The not-panicking aircraft did what it was supposed to do: continued flying to a soft landing in an empty, snow-covered, cotton-growing field. America is a place/concept which does not guarantee us individual successes in our lifetimes. But it does allow us the opportunity to achieve our dreams—if we are willing to live and continue paying the price of achieving them!
我才不在乎呢，穆罕默德！最重要的根本不是战机本身或它属于第几代，而是飞行员、机组人员和武器操作员！以及他们来自哪里、是如何成长起来的。社会在其从事的事业、制造的物品、使用的工具中，都蕴含着固有的文化短板与优势！我们那一代人粗俗、无礼，还满口脏话，但那些出身各行各业的军官们，却都秉持着“力求做到最好”的信念，堪称绅士。那时的美国虽称不上“团结一致”，但当人们还能在社会中各司其职、发挥主导作用时，整个国家在态度和武器方面都具备优势。正是这种优势，将男性天生的攻击性与机械天赋，同女性的生育、支持、保护能力，以及让所有人铭记“为何要过有价值的生活并守护它”的初心结合在了一起！20世纪60年代我参加基础飞行员训练时，有沙特王子在我们基地接受飞行员培训。冬天，我们驾驶T-38教练机起飞爬升时，机翼前缘常常会结冰，不过那只是无害的雾凇，飞到一万英尺高度时就会蒸发。可某天，一名沙特飞行员看到机翼结冰后惊慌失措，直接弹射逃生，还连累了他那大喊“搞什么……！”的教官。而那架没有“恐慌”的飞机，则按其设计初衷继续飞行，最终在一片空旷的、积雪覆盖的棉花地里平稳着陆。美国这个国家、这个概念，无法保证我们每个人在一生中都能取得成功，但它给了我们实现梦想的机会——前提是我们愿意为之坚持，并持续付出努力。
Redneck Picard Former Geologist at United States Geological Survey (USGS) (1994–2012)
雷德尼克·皮卡德 美国地质调查局（USGS）前地质学家（1994-2012年）
It is hard to say. From the spec sheet and photos, it can pass be passed off as a G5 fighter. But given Turkey’s relative lack of aviation expertise and fighter design and manufacturing, and its comparatively weak industrial base, it seems reasonable to suppose the Turks will struggle to make it fully competitive with other country’s G5 fighter without extensive foreign support.
很难说。从技术规格表和照片来看，它勉强能被当作第五代战斗机。但考虑到土耳其在航空专业知识、战斗机设计与制造方面相对欠缺，且工业基础较为薄弱，有理由认为，如果没有大量外部支持，土耳其将难以使其（“KAAN”战斗机）与其他国家的第五代战斗机具备完全的竞争力。
Tolga Karakaya International Politics
托尔加·卡拉卡亚 研究国际政治领域
No. For now, it can be considered a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft. The most important equipment for an aircraft to be considered a 5th generation fighter jet is the engine it uses. Turkey is a country that has the capacity to produce jet engines locally, but the product we call Crystal Turbine jet engine is on a very different level. Even in the world, the number of companies that can produce this engine can be counted on the fingers of one hand. That's why Turkey has a long way to go.
不是的。目前来看，“KAAN”只能被归为4.5代战斗机。一款战机要被认定为第五代战斗机，其最关键的装备便是所使用的发动机。土耳其虽然具备自主生产喷气发动机的能力，但我们所说的“单晶涡轮喷气发动机”（此处“Crystal Turbine jet engine”结合上下文应为“单晶涡轮喷气发动机”，即single crystal turbine jet engine）属于完全不同的技术层级。即便在全球范围内，能够生产这种发动机的公司也屈指可数。因此，土耳其要实现真正的第五代战斗机研发目标，还有很长的路要走。
ΝΙΚΟΛΑΟΣ ΣΚΟΡΔΟΣ Former MECHANICAL ENGINEER at O.S.Y. (1981–2012) 1y
尼科拉奥斯·斯科尔佐斯 希腊国家造船公司（O.S.Y.）前机械工程师（1981-2012年） 1年前
Turkey has three strong advantages when it comes to the production of industrial products.
1) very high availability of unskilled labor due to large population.
2) large energy availability from Azerbaijan
3) insufficient and ineffective scientific and technological personnel.
在工业产品生产方面，土耳其拥有三项显著“优势”：
1. 人口规模庞大，可提供大量非技术劳动力；
2. 能从阿塞拜疆获取充足的能源；
3. 科技人才数量不足且能力有限。
So, based on the above, large technology companies from the United States and Europe, have sent thousands of their technicians to Turkey and are already producing ready-made solutions mainly of weapons systems.
In Turkey, weapons systems are being developed in about one or two years, the research, development and production of which in their original countries took several decades.
The weapons systems are not developed by Turkish technicians, but by the armies of European and American technicians and scientists.
In the case of KAAN, we see an attempt to continue and improve the F35 fighter in Turkey, given that in the US it is almost impossible to continue the production and improvement of the F35 fighter.
基于上述情况，来自美国和欧洲的大型科技公司已向土耳其派遣了数千名技术人员，目前正主要在土耳其生产武器系统的现成解决方案。
在土耳其，一些武器系统的研发周期仅需一到两年，而这些武器系统在其原产国（欧美国家）的研发和生产曾耗费了数十年时间。
这些武器系统并非由土耳其技术人员研发，而是由大批欧美技术人员和科学家研发的。
就“KAAN”战斗机而言，考虑到美国几乎已无法继续F-35战斗机的生产与改进工作，我们看到的是土耳其在试图延续并改进F-35战斗机的技术路线。
Eleftheriou Dorotheos-Vasileios MRes in Synthetic Biology, University College London (UCL) (Graduated 2011) 1y
埃莱夫塞里乌·多罗西奥斯-瓦西利奥斯 伦敦大学学院（UCL）合成生物学硕士（2011年毕业）
Yes! It is analogue to the F-22. The USA gave to Turkey the know how to built a 5th Generation fighter since Turkey is the most important ally in NATO. Initially Turkey was to build the F-35. Since Turkey decided to step out from the F-35 program USA gave her the blueprints to build TXF/KAAN. Regarding the other facts about the “disagreement” between USA and Turkey… It was a little Diplomatic theatre to convince Russia to sell to Turkey the S-400 system and then Turkey let the American experts find out critical information about the S-400, as to how it locks etc…
是的！“KAAN”战斗机与F-22类似。由于土耳其是北约最重要的盟友，美国向土耳其提供了制造第五代战斗机的技术诀窍。最初，土耳其本计划参与制造F-35战斗机。后来，在土耳其决定退出F-35项目后，美国向其提供了制造TXF/KAAN战斗机的设计蓝图。至于美土之间“存在分歧”等其他说法……那不过是一场小小的外交表演，目的是说服俄罗斯向土耳其出售S-400防空系统，之后土耳其再让美国专家获取关于S-400的关键信息，比如该系统的锁定机制等。
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