网帖翻译

Bradley Betts, studied Bachelor of Science in Geology with Honors at University of Portsmouth, UK (2011)
Much of Europe does not have olive oil. Indeed, those countries which historically relied on olive oil were very much outnumbered, and confined entirely to southern Europe.
Those countries that didn’t have olive oil used butter and animal fats. Indeed, the butter/olive oil line is one of the great culinary divides of Europe, the others being tomato/potato, beer/wine/clear spirits, and tea/coffee.
I imagine that if southern Europe didn’t have olive oil, they’d have used butter too.

Bradley Betts, 曾在英国朴茨茅斯大学获得地质学荣誉理学学士学位(2011)
欧洲大部分地区没有橄榄油。从历史上讲，依赖橄榄油的国家在很大程度上是少数派，完全局限于南欧。
那些没有橄榄油的国家使用黄油和动物脂肪。的确，黄油/橄榄油是欧洲美食的一大特色，其他特色还包括西红柿/土豆、啤酒/葡萄酒/烈酒和茶/咖啡。
我想如果南欧没有橄榄油，他们也会用黄油。

Joan Carles Martin
“historically speaking the countries which relied on olive oil were very much in the minority, confined entirely to southern Europe.”
Well, yes but no. The Iberian Peninsula, Italy, Greece, France… were orders of magnitude more populated than the north and some other parts of Europe.
It’s not really useful to compare today demographics to those of the past.

“从历史上讲，依赖橄榄油的国家在很大程度上是少数派，完全局限于南欧。”
是也不是。伊比利亚半岛、意大利、希腊、法国的人口比欧洲北部和其他一些地区的人口都要多几个数量级。
将今天的人口统计数据与过去的相比并没有什么用处。

Bradley Betts
I wasn’t. When I said ‘historically speaking’, I was referring to the fact that today olive oil is available in the north and butter in the south, when historically that would not have been the case. Perhaps I should have been clearer.

我也没有这样做。
当我说“从历史的角度来看”时，我指的是今天在北方可以吃到橄榄油而在南方可以吃到黄油的事实，而从历史的角度来看，这是不可能的。也许我应该说得更清楚些。

Louis Kolkman
Not sure about the butter. As butter can spoil easily in warm weather, I would think the would have chosen another oil (or oil-like substance) because those would keep better in the warmer climate of the Mediterranean

我不确定黄油是不是如此。由于黄油在温暖的天气很容易变质，我想他们会选择另一种油(或类似油的物质)，因为它们在地中海温暖的气候中保存得更好。

Indicus
I don't know if that's true because India has a longstanding tradition of using butter and butter-derived products in their various cuisines. It's undeniable that Indian summers are often hotter and more humid than the Mediterranean ones.

我不知道这是不是真的，因为印度有在各种菜肴中使用黄油和黄油衍生产品的悠久传统。
不可否认，印度的夏天通常比地中海的夏天更热、更潮湿。

Stepan Lisovsky
In 2019, coffee overtook tea in popularity in Russia. Not long before that, beer overtook vodka also.

2019年，咖啡在俄罗斯的受欢迎程度超过了茶。在那之前不久，啤酒也超过了伏特加。

Bradley Betts
Yeah, the map isn’t strictly accurate, it’s more a generalisation. Scandinavia drinks beer too.

是的，这张地图并不精确，它更像是一种概括。斯堪的纳维亚人也喝啤酒。

Ed Qualls
The English word “butter" is a borrowing from Ancient Greek. It was borrowed into English from Latin, through its having been borrowed by those speaking Latin, Oscan or Umbrian: communities who had developed cheese, but not butter.
Even with the higher average temperatures of the Greek-speaking lands, butter could be kept in caves. These are more common in the ancient area of both Greece and “Magna Graecia", i.e., Naples, southern Italy and Sicily, all lying to the south of those Latinate areas of central and northern Italy.
So, butter was an option in ancient, Greek-speaking areas, too.

英语单词“butter（黄油）”是从古希腊借来的。尽管它是从拉丁语借用到英语的，是由那些说拉丁语的人、奥斯坎人或翁布里亚人那里借用的，但后者发明的是奶酪，而不是黄油本身。
即使在说希腊语的地方，平均温度更高，黄油也可以保存在洞穴里。这些在古希腊和“大希腊”地区很常见。例如，那不勒斯，意大利南部和西西里岛。
所以，在古代说希腊语的地区，黄油也是一种选择。

Khalid Elhassan
Doubt the southern Europeans would have used butter if they didn’t have olive oil. Northern Europe was/ is suitable for raising cattle and the fodder necessary to feed them. Southern Europe, not so much.

如果没有橄榄油，我怀疑南欧人会使用黄油。北欧适合饲畜牧业和喂养它们所需的饲料。南欧则不然。

Glejdi Kapo
Cattle raising is/was an activity throughout Europe (and everywhere else). It has nothing to do with North vs. South Europe.

畜牧业在整个欧洲(以及其他任何地方)都是一项活动。这与北欧和南欧无关。

Khalid Elhassan
Of course it does. Cattle require rich grazing lands that are ample in northern Europe but scarce in southern Europe, and a climate suitable for growing nutritionally rich fodder that’s easier to grow in northern Europe than southern.
There’s a reason why there have historically been a lot of cows in northern Europe and so few in southern Europe. So much so that there’s even a lactose tolerance/ lactose intolerance divide between southern and northern Europe because one population used dairy products for thousands of years and developed the (acquired) tolerance for that stuff over the generations, while the other didn’t.

是的，当然。
畜牧业需要肥沃的牧场，这在北欧是充足的，但在南欧是稀缺的，以及适合生长营养丰富的饲料的气候，这在北欧比在南欧更容易生长。
这就是为什么在历史上北欧有很多奶牛而南欧却很少的原因。以至于在南欧和北欧之间甚至存在着乳糖耐受性和不耐受性的分界线，因为一个国家的人使用乳制品已有数千年之久，经过几代人的进化，他们对乳制品产生了(后天的)耐受性，而另一个国家的人则没有。

Zoran Borut Vresnik
Nope. Mediterranean area is not good for cattle. You need wide pasture, but we have only stones and grass sometimes.
Goat, sheep that's for Mediterran, but no cow.

不。地中海地区不适合畜牧业。你需要广阔的牧场，但我们有时只有石头和草。
地中海有的是山羊和绵羊，但不是奶牛。

Mick von Bornemann
Plenty of cows arround the Med, the difference is relative, not absolute.

地中海周围有很多奶牛，差别是相对的，而不是绝对的。

Zoran Borut Vresnik
This is coast in my country Cow my ass


这是我国家的海岸线，鬼才有奶牛。

Carlos Raygoza
Spain has always had a big cattle raising culture, the bull is also very symbolic of Hispanic cultire. It wasnt for nothing that when Spain colonized the Americas they took there knowledge of animal husbandry there to raise cattle pretty much the same way they did in the peninsula but now it was done in the wide open plains of the Americas (also adapted to the new obstacles), this knowledge was then passed on to their decendants, the Mexicans (one example) who then taught the Americans (Northern European stock) what they knew about cowboying (not the same techniques as cattle raising in Northern Europe).

西班牙一直有大型畜牧业文化，公牛也是西班牙文化的重要象征。
当西班牙殖民美洲的时候他们把畜牧业的知识带到那里，就像他们在半岛上的畜牧业一样。
但现在他们在美洲开阔的平原上开展畜牧业了(也适应了新的障碍)，这些知识随后被传给了他们的后代，例如墨西哥人，然后墨西哥人向美国人(北欧血统)传授了他们所知道的关于牛仔的知识(与北欧的畜牧技术不同)。

Zoran Borut Vresnik
Yes, it's true. But difference is that Spain is huge. Long coast but also spacious inland.
But Spain is also not famous for butter production. Not ridiculous amount like Denmark, Germany and such. Also butter is heavy to keep in hot area. Cheese is more suitable

是的, 你说得对。但不同之处在于，西班牙是一个巨大的国家。海岸线很长，但内陆也很广阔。
但西班牙的黄油生产也并不出名，不像丹麦、德国等国家那样驰名海外。
另外，黄油在热的地方也很难保存。奶酪更合适。

Colin Reid
Regarding Tea Europe versus Coffee Europe, I’m pretty sure tea was at least as popular as coffee in Poland until quite recently, and I would guess tea has long been widespread throughout the former Russian empire. European Turkey also belongs in Tea Europe more than Coffee Europe, but it seems that during and after the Ottoman era, Turkish coffee was a much more successful import than Turkish tea among the other peoples of the Balkans.

关于茶和咖啡，我很确定直到最近茶在波兰至少和咖啡一样受欢迎，我猜茶已经在前俄罗斯帝国广泛传播了很长时间。
巴尔干半岛更喜欢茶，而不是咖啡，似乎在奥斯曼时期及之后都是如此，而在巴尔干其他地方的人则更喜欢咖啡而非茶。

Henriikka Keskinen
Regarding tea in the Russian Empire:
Drinking tea isn't popular in Finland. Nowhere near as popular as coffee, anyway. We consume more coffee per capita (and milk, much of it consumed with coffee, I'd wager) than any other nation.
Tea is a bit more popular in Estonia and the Baltics, but not as popular as it is or was in Poland.
Therefore I'd suggest that it's more to do with Slavic cultural customs than Russian expansion in Europe.

说到俄罗斯帝国的茶：
喝茶在芬兰不受欢迎，反正比不上咖啡受欢迎。我们的人均咖啡消费量(还有牛奶，我敢打赌，大部分牛奶都是和咖啡一起消耗的)比其他任何国家都要多。
茶在爱沙尼亚和波罗的海国家更受欢迎，但不像在波兰那么受欢迎。
因此，我认为这更多地与斯拉夫文化习俗有关，而不是俄罗斯在欧洲的扩张。
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Colin Reid
Maybe there’s also a story about the rise of tea in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, then. I don’t think it’s a Slavic thing, as tea isn’t especially popular in the South Slavic countries. Since neither tea nor coffee is grown in Europe, they started as upper-class fashions and later spread to the rest of the population, so patterns of preference for one over the other are generally the legacy of old empires and trade companies. (For example in the UK, coffee became popular before tea did; mass consumption of tea really took off in the 19th century due to a rapid expansion of tea farms in British-controlled India.)

也许还有一个关于茶在波兰-立陶宛联邦兴起的故事。我不认为这能跟斯拉夫扯上关系，因为茶在南斯拉夫国家并不流行。
由于茶和咖啡在欧洲都不种植，它们一开始是上流社会的时尚，后来传播到其他人群，所以对其中一种的偏好通常是旧帝国和贸易公司的遗产。
例如，在英国，咖啡比茶更受欢迎;19世纪，由于英属印度的茶园迅速扩张，茶叶的大规模消费才真正开始。

Jeff Verkouille
Tomatoes, potatoes, tea, and coffee are very much not European: the first two were crops developed by the indigenous peoples of the Americas, and the latter two are from East Asia and Africa/Arabia respectively.
It’s great Europeans appreciate these foods and drinks, but that doesn’t make them European. Heck, you can’t even grow tea or coffee in Europe!

番茄、土豆、茶和咖啡都不是欧洲的特产:前两种作物是美洲土著种植的，后两种分别来自东亚和非洲/阿拉伯。
欧洲人很喜欢这些食物和饮料，但这并不意味着它们就是欧洲的。
见鬼，你们甚至都不能在欧洲种植茶叶或咖啡!
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Jason Harris
It's not that they're European, or even originally European, it's just that an awful lot of each of them is consumed in Europe, and there isn't an equivalent alternative that originates in Europe. I, for one, will certainly not be going back to a morning cup of broth or posset (hot milk curdled with wine or ale, apparently!)

这并不是说它们是欧洲的，甚至是原产欧洲，只是它们中的每一种都在欧洲被消费，而且没有一种来自欧洲的替代品。
就我个人而言，我肯定不会在早上去喝一杯肉汤或牛乳。

Mithur Sheridan
The potato one is very wrong, at least in what refers to Spain. We eat a lot of tomato, but even more potato.

马铃薯这个分布大错特错，至少在西班牙是这样。
我们是会吃很多西红柿，但土豆吃得更多。

Corrin Lakeland
So, if I prefer tomatoes, wine, butter and coffee
Then Slovenia is pretty much the only place to be?

所以，如果我更喜欢番茄，葡萄酒，黄油和咖啡
那么斯洛文尼亚大概是我唯一能去的地方了?

Charles Stuart
In recent times, cold pressed virgin rapeseed oil has been promoted in the UK as our equivalent to olive oil, as a flavoursome and healthy oil that doesn't have to be imported.

最近，冷榨初榨菜籽油在英国被推广为相当于橄榄油的产品，是一种不需要进口的美味健康的油。

Bradley Betts
Yes it has, and it really is an excellent cooking oil. However, modern cultivars of rapeseed weren’t around until the 1970s

是的，它确实是。
它确实是一种极好的食用油。然而，现代的油菜籽品种直到20世纪70年代才出现。

Chris Sturt
Interesting. I wonder why northern Europe went with butter and not other vegetable oils that we now have like rape sead and sunflour. They all grow well in the climate.

有趣。我想知道为什么北欧人选择黄油而不是其他植物油，我们现在有菜籽和向日葵。它们在这种气候下都生长得很好。

Mehmet Fatih Yüksel
Sunflower is originated from North America, so there was no way it could be grown in Europe before Columbus (and it took a while after him that sunflower got to be known and cultivated in Europe, roughly in the 18th century).
Rapeseed is native to the Old World, and has long been known in Europe. But in its original form, it has high levels of erucic acid, which induces heart diseases, therefore it was understandably cultivated in very low amounts. It took until the 1970s that rapeseed cultivars low in erucic acid were bred (and that also happened in North America - Canada, to be specific, which is why those cultivars are collectively known as canola), after only which rapeseed has become a common source of edible vegetable oil.

向日葵原产于北美，所以在哥伦布之前欧洲是不可能种植向日葵的(在哥伦布之后，大约在18世纪，欧洲才开始知道和种植向日葵)。
油菜籽原产于旧大陆，在欧洲早已为人所知。但在它的原始形态中，它含有高水平的芥酸，而芥酸会引发心脏病，因此它的培养量很低就可以理解了。
直到20世纪70年代才培育出芥酸含量低的油菜籽品种, 这也发生在北美，具体来说是加拿大，这就是为什么这些品种被统称为油菜籽，此后菜籽才成为一种常见的食用植物油来源。

Katarzyna Czarnas
Sunflower doesn’t like spring freezes, so in more northern countries like Poland it doesn’t thrive well.
Rapeseed is much better, because it can be sown in autumn and harvested in early summer, but it needs fertile soils. Low-erucic variants are quite recent and people in the past were aware that rapeseed oil and mustard oil can be toxic when eaten frequently.
In the medi times flax oil (linseed oil) was quite popular.
Butter, lard, goose lard and other animal fats are popular mainly because northern countries have short periods of hot summers, but long, cold winters, which are non-growing season. Solid fats don’t spill, preserve well and can be made even in winter.

向日葵不喜欢倒春寒，所以在像波兰这样的北方国家，向日葵生长不好。
油菜籽要好得多，因为它可以在秋天播种，在初夏收获，但它需要肥沃的土壤。
低芥子变异体是最近才出现的，过去的人们意识到经常食用菜籽油和芥子油是有毒的。
在中世纪，亚麻油(亚麻籽油)很受欢迎。
黄油、猪油、鹅油和其他动物脂肪很受欢迎，主要是因为北方国家炎热的夏季短暂，但冬季漫长而寒冷，这不是植物生长的季节。
固体脂肪不会散溢，易于保存，即使在冬天也可以制作。

Rachele Trevisan
I love butter and I can't stand the taste of olive oil, it's pretty much the only thing I can't eat. I hold an Italian passport. The homemade butter from my homeland the Alps is really good (but I like Kerrygold too)

我喜欢黄油，我受不了橄榄油的味道，这几乎是我唯一不能吃的东西。我持有意大利护照。
我家乡阿尔卑斯山的自制黄油也很好(但我也喜欢Kerrygold)。

Alan Canzian
I’m from extreme north Italy, which is traditionally branded as south europe, even thought it’s central, and we can see that in traditions.
I can’t think of any traditional recipe which uses olive oil instead of butter, but olive oil use is widely spread anyway
That’s to say that olive oil’s use spread in the last ..20 years, but it has always been much more butter.
Not to mention production.
I guess same could happen throughout Europe, as its known to be more healthy than animal based fat
I saw olive oil being sold everywhere outside Italy

我来自意大利最北部，传统上被认为是南欧，尽管它是中部，我们可以从传统上看到这一点。
我想不出任何用橄榄油代替黄油的传统食谱，但橄榄油的使用确实也很广泛就是了。
也就是说，橄榄油的使用（在我这里）是最近20年里传播开来的，这里一直都是黄油。
更不用说生产了。我想同样的事情可能会发生在整个欧洲，因为它被认为比动物脂肪更健康
我看到意大利以外的地方都在卖橄榄油。
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Graham Pearson
I'm not convinced: butter needs refrigerated, making it less suitable for Southern Europe. It seems more likely to me that they would use some other form of vegetable oil, or animal fat.

我不相信:黄油需要冷藏，所以不太适合南欧人食用。在我看来，他们更有可能使用其他形式的植物油，或动物脂肪。

Ciprian Cladoveanu
Actually, Romania (others - without olive trees- in Eastern Europe, too) uses sun flower oil, not butter.

实际上，罗马尼亚(东欧其他国家也没有橄榄树)使用葵花籽油，而不是黄油。

Bradley Betts
Yes, but not historically. Sun flowers are new world plants, we didn’t have them until we discovered America in the 1600s.

是的，但不是从历史上看。葵花是新世界的植物，我们在17世纪发现美洲之前没有葵花。

Mehmet Fatih Yüksel
Well, those maps are all from a publication named “Atlas of Prejudice” so they entail a fair bit of prejudice, bigotry, and generalization.

这些地图都来自于一本名为《偏见地图集》的出版物，所以它们包含了相当多的偏见、偏执和概括。

Bradley Betts
No they don’t. They are generalised, yes, but it’s called the Atlas of Prejudice because the author is taking the mickey out of national stereotypes, not because he himself is prejudiced.
They’re not exhaustively accurate, they’re just there to demonstrate a point.

不是这样的，这些地图确实是泛化的，但它被称为《偏见地图集》是因为作者在嘲笑国家的刻板印象，而不是因为他自己有偏见。
它们并不是完全准确的，它们只是为了证明一个观点。

Andrea Valenti, works at University of Pisa
Actually, most of Europe did not use olive oil up until relatively recently.
The only ones who had access to olive oil were the people living in regions with a mediterranean climate, such as Spain, Greece, southern France and southern Italy.
I am from a mountain town in northern Italy, and my grandparents still used mostly animal oils (such as butter and pig's fat) instead of olive oil up until after the end of the war. It was cheaper, as many families already had animals like cows and pigs, and growing olive trees was not really an option due to the climate being too cold.

事实上，大多数欧洲人直到最近才开始使用橄榄油。
只有那些生活在地中海气候地区的人们，如西班牙、希腊、法国南部和意大利南部，才有机会接触到橄榄油。
我来自意大利北部的一个山城，在战争结束之前，我的祖父母仍然主要使用动物油(比如黄油和猪油)而不是橄榄油。它更便宜，因为许多家庭已经有了牛和猪等动物，而且由于气候太冷，种植橄榄树不是一个真正的选择。

Allen Jones, lives in Montana, North Dakota
Hemp was cultivated in many parts of Europe and Central Asia thousands of years ago, as old or older than olives, and it’s seed oil takes relatively little technology to extract, also in use thousands of years ago. Hemp grows much faster than the several years it takes to develop olive fields (hemp can produce 4 crops per year in warm places and 2 crops in places with long cold seasons.) It’s oil has as many or more applications than olive oil and higher production volumes so in many ways it was the substitute oil for millennia in some of Eurasia.
Grapeseeds also produce a cooking oil. Obviously there’s a lot of grapes in Europe up into Northern Europe’s river valleys.
I think rapeseed/canola was a central Asian plant but could well be wrong and that’s productive for cooking oil in large, cheap quantitities.
Post 1500’s and if North American corns were planted as enthusiastically as potatoes (don’t seem to have been), corn oil is a very common cooking oil today.
An oil seed crusher is basically a series of heavy rollers so something that could be powered by men turning a big crank, harnessed oxen, or a waterwheel so quite ancient technologies for large scale production beyond hand tools like mortar and pestle.
Animal fats were in short supply up until modern feedlots and plentiful animal feed from harvested grains like corn so the pigs and cattle didn’t walk off much of their calories as they do roaming large pastures. Devoting a lot of a big grain harvest like wheat in North Africa/Egypt to making lard/pig fat wasn’t much of an option with famines every few years a norm.

数千年前，欧洲和中亚的许多地区种植了大麻，比橄榄还要古老，而且提取大麻籽油所需的技术相对较少，也在数千年前就开始使用了。大麻的生长速度比开发橄榄田要快得多(大麻在温暖的地方每年可以产4稻，在寒冷的季节里能产2稻)。
它的用途和橄榄油一样多甚至更多，产量也更高，所以在许多方面，它是欧亚大陆一些地区几千年来的替代油。
我认为油菜籽是一种中亚植物，但也可能是错的，可以大量廉价生产食用油。
在15世纪后，如果北美的玉米种植和土豆一样热情(似乎没有)，玉米油在今天也会是一个非常普遍的食用油。
油籽碾碎机基本上是由一系列沉重的滚轮组成的，所以它可以由人转动大曲柄，驾驭牛，或水车来提供动力。这是超越了研钵及研杵的、大规模生产中相当古老的技术。
在现代饲养场出现之前，动物脂肪一直很短缺，而大量的动物饲料来自谷物，比如玉米，再者猪和牛不像在大牧场上散步那样消耗掉太多的热量。。
在每隔几年就会发生饥荒的情况下，把北非/埃及的小麦那样的大量谷物收成用于生产猪油/猪油并不是一个很好的选择。