网帖翻译

Chris Ebbert
, lives in Sweden
Answered May 9
Having lived in Canada for a few years myself, I have to admit I struggle to come up with a point where Canada actually would make more sense than the Nordics.
But I am a European myself, so the advantages of Canada may well be outside that sphere of values. To be more specific, I think life in Canada can be easier and more harmonious for immigrants from Africa and the Middle East than it would be in the Nordics, because Canada’s climate of sympathies is more in favour of them than that of the Nordics.
Perhaps it isn’t so evident from the outside, but there are pretty strong, xenophobic currents here at the moment, targeted at these groups.
We have political parties in power that are coming up with decisions that are clearly inspired by something less than sheer enthusiasm about the immigration of non-Europeans, and finding oneself at the center of that in coming years could be less than pleasant.
I think if I were not European, I would feel more welcome in Canada.

我自己在加拿大生活了几年，我不得不承认，我很难想出加拿大实际上比北欧国家更好的一点。
但我自己是欧洲人，所以加拿大的优势很可能对我来说不在讨论范围之内。更具体地说，我认为来自非洲和中东的移民在加拿大的生活会比在北欧更容易、更和谐，因为加拿大的同情气氛比北欧更有利于他们。
也许从外面看并不明显，但目前这里（北欧）有着相当强烈的、针对这些群体的排外主义思潮。
我们有一些政党在执政，他们做出的决定显然不是出于对非欧洲人移民的热情，而在未来几年发现自己处于这种情况的中心可能会让你不太愉快。
我想如果我不是欧洲人，我会觉得在加拿大更好。

Erik Johansson
May 9
So the narrative in Sweden is getting more and more hostile towards non European immigrants? That’s sad

所以，瑞典的叙事对非欧洲移民越来越怀有敌意了吗？这真令人伤心

Chris Ebbert
May 9
It’s hopefully only a passing trend. But the writing is clearly on the wall. In Denmark more so than in Sweden, I find.

希望这只是一个短暂的趋势。但（排外的）文字很明显地写在墙上。我发现在丹麦比在瑞典更是如此。

Erik Johansson
May 9
I think Sweden could find a way to keep a humane refugee stance, while being stricter on who gets to stay. More language training and culture school, where they get to learn more about the Do’s and don’ts of Swedish society. Eventually, that positive effect will make Sverigedemokraterna lose their power

我认为瑞典可以找到一种方法来保持对难民的人道立场，同时对谁能留下来更加严格。建立更多的语言培训和文化学校，让他们更多地了解瑞典社会的"该"和"不该"。最终，这种积极的效果将使Sverigedemokraterna失去他们的权力。

Chris Ebbert
May 9
When even a region as level headed as the Nordics leans to the right, there must be something wrong. And it’s either in the perception of things, or in the actual management of things. Personally, I think it’s a bit of both. Some overhauls of processes are most likely in order.

当一个像北欧这样平和的地区也向右倾斜的时候，一定出现了什么问题。这要么是在对事物的看法上，要么是在对事物的实际管理上。我个人认为，两者都有。很可能需要对（难民的接收）流程进行一些彻底的改革。

Peter Harris
May 19
Does the Nordic Region have a right-wing equivalent to a FOX “News” or similar?

北欧地区是否有相当于福克斯新闻或类似的右翼？

Doug Corson
May 14
Sweden’s government was built around Swedish culture… other cultures are way different..it is obvious why this would be an issue in my view.
Anglo Saxon societies are built around individual freedoms , not culture or government , so the immigrants can fit in faster..
I would compare it to the Rome Republic vs Vikings…. which one had more mix of people ?

瑞典的政府是围绕瑞典文化建立的......其他文化与此大相径庭。在我看来，这显然是一个问题。
盎格鲁撒克逊社会是围绕着个人自由而建立的，而不是文化或政府，所以移民可以更快地适应。
我想把它比作罗马共和国与维京人....哪个国家的人更多？

Jennifer Trem
May 19
But I saw a lot of immigrants from africa and Middle East in USA who faced discrimination ! And a lot of Americans call them foreigners even if they become citizen !

但我看到很多来自非洲和中东的移民（在美国）面临歧视！很多美国人称他们为外国人，即使他们成为了公民！

Doug Corson
May 19
Yep. But that happens in every country. However. They can still become successful faster. because of model of government, not rigid. More flexible. Not based on culture but economic freedom.
individuals within a country are mostly the same always have resistance. With some groups. but it wont make much difference in the long run

是的。但这发生在每个国家。然而，他们仍然可以更快地获得成功。因为政府的模式，不僵化、更加灵活。不是基于文化而是基于经济自由建立的。
一个国家的个人大多是一样的，总是有阻力。一些团体也是如此。但从长远来看，这不会有太大的区别。

Jennifer Trem
May 19
But They immigrated now to UK and some to France (the people who I know) and they said they treated very will in UK and France comparing to USA ! To be honest some of us looking down to Arabs even if they are not Muslims ! I know that

但他们现在移民到了英国，有些移民到了法国（我认识的人），他们说，与美国相比，他们在英国和法国受到的待遇非常好。说实话，我们有些人看不起阿拉伯人，即使他们不是穆斯林。我知道这种情况。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

Doug Corson
May 20
USA is a 50 state country.
I don't have answers for you. Peoples experiences vary
Treated very well.
Sounds vague. Not sure what that means.
treated well by who. I mentioned economic freedom. And the ability to be economically successful much quicker.
also. My comparison was to Sweden. The UK is another Anglo Saxon country. And might be more similar to US.

美国是一个50个州的国家。
我没有答案给你。人们的经历各不相同
受到很好的对待。
听起来很含糊。不知道那是什么意思。
被谁对待得很好。我提到了经济自由。以及在经济上可以更快取得成功的能力。
还有。我的比较是与瑞典相比。英国是另一个盎格鲁撒克逊国家。而且可能与美国更相似。

Nader Hussain
May 10
Yes but the barbarous behavior of many immigrants is a contributing factor. Consider more than 100 grenade attacks on police stations by foreigners.

是的，但许多移民的野蛮行为是一个促成因素。想想外国人用手榴弹对警察局进行100多次袭击。

Chris Ebbert
May 11
In Canada? Seriously?

在加拿大？认真的吗？

Nader Hussain
May 11
No in Sweden. Seriously.

不，发生在瑞典，认真的。

Chris Ebbert
May 11
That blows the mind. Do you have a statistics lix to that?

这让我感到很震惊。你有一个统计数据的链接吗？

Nader Hussain
May 11
It occurred less than five years ago. Just look it up.

它发生在不到五年前。只需谷歌一下。

Chris Ebbert
May 11
I’m sorry, but you’re wrong. There is nothing at all on the web to even suggest such a thing.

对不起，但你错了。网上没有查到任何类似的东西。

Nader Hussain
May 11
Are you sure about that?

你确定？

Chris Ebbert
May 11
Those are bombings. They are not “100 attacks on police stations.” And they are also not all committed by immigrants. :) We do have an organized crime problem in Sweden, but the problem goes deeper than coming from immigrants.

这些是爆炸事件。它们不是"对警察局的100次攻击"。而且它们也不全是由移民犯下的。:) 我们在瑞典确实有一个有组织犯罪的问题，而且这个问题比来自移民的问题更深。

Chris Cunningham
May 13
There does seem to be a weird problem with gangs using ex-Yugoslav grenades. About 100 incidents in the last decade or so - but only 4 seem to have been directed at the police. Mostly, they've been aimed at other gangs. Apparently it's partly due to lixs between sellers in Serbia and Bosnia (where there are a lot of grenades in private hands, due to the conflict there) and yugoslav diaspora in Sweden, and the fact that until recently grenades were classified as “flammable products” rather than “weapons”. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/03/world/europe/sweden-crime-immigration-hand-grenades.amp.html?0p19G=0232

使用前南斯拉夫手榴弹的帮派似乎确实是一个奇怪的问题。在过去十年左右，大约有100起事件--但似乎只有4起是针对警察的。大多数情况下，它们都是针对其他帮派的。显然，这部分是由于塞尔维亚和波斯尼亚的卖家（由于那里的冲突，有很多手榴弹在私人手中）和瑞典的南斯拉夫侨民之间的联系，以及直到最近手榴弹被列为"易燃品"而不是"武器"的事实。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/03/world/europe/sweden-crime-immigration-hand-grenades.amp.html?0p19G=0232
Nader Hussain
May 10
I think because Canada is a “new world” country as most of it’s modern population came from elsewhere. Noridc countries would be more alien for immigrants because most people there are natives.

我想这是因为加拿大是一个"新世界"国家，因为它的大部分现代人口来自其他地方。北欧国家对移民来说会更加陌生，因为那里的大多数人是本地人。

Bryan Robertson
May 17
Western Canada and the more rural areas of Canada do have certain race relations issues and there is the rather poor treatment of the First Nations people - it also seems some of the pro-Trump mania has worked it’s way northward.
So, far it isn’t reaching a level that would create more then isolated incidents - but we still have some work ahead of us.

加拿大西部和更多的农村地区确实存在某些种族关系问题，而且原住民的待遇相当差--似乎一些支持特朗普的狂热已经向北蔓延。
到目前为止，它还没有达到会造成更多孤立事件的程度--但我们仍有一些工作要做。

Roman Martyn
May 12
Where would you advice an Eastern European to migrate to (non-EU country, Ukraine)? To Nordics or to Canada?

你会建议一个东欧人移民到哪里（非欧盟国家，乌克兰）？去北欧还是去加拿大？

Rohit Arora
May 11
Are people becoming racist towards Indians too in Europe?

在欧洲，人们也会对印度人产生种族主义吗？
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

Erik Engheim
, studied at University of North Dakota
From having lived in different countries I think it is hard to say one country is definitely better than another. It depends so much on what you value as a person, what kind of job you have, where you are in life. Are you single, have children and a family etc?
It may be tempting to compare Canada to Nordic countries because they are all far north and known as quite successful countries. However these countries are dramatically different from each other.
I have not spent a lot of time in Canada, but I have lived in the US, and I am married to a Canadian. My impression of Canada is that it is sort of America done right. Take away the really bad things about America and you get Canada.
While Canadians love to compare Canada to Europe it really is nothing like it. Canada is far more similar to the US. As a Norwegian visiting Canada what struck me is that suburbs, stores, downtowns, public transport, how people interact etc is very similar to the US.
From a European perspective I found e.g. Toronto and areas around it to have very little public transport compared to what I am used to in Norway or the rest of Europe. Mississauga e.g. which has a 1 million inhabitants has no subway or tram and only a pretty rudimentary buss network. Contrast that with Oslo which has half the population but which has an extensive subway network (larger than Toronto with much larger population), extensive tram network and busses.
Canada is probably better if you want a place where it is easy and convenient to drive. Want a big house and make a rapid career. However if you value more work-life balance then Nordic countries are better. More of society is setup to benefit children and family life: shorter work days, more autonomy and flexibility at work. Better maternity leave and childcare solutions. Nordic neighborhoods from what I have seen are also better organized for children. They tend to be built like little villages where children can move between houses, playgrounds, schools etc safely. I Canada it seems like all houses are placed along car roads, because garages are placed with each house. In Norway e.g. one tends to place garages away from the houses to allow a car free neighborhood. There is more playgrounds scattered about than I could see when walking around Canadian neighborhoods.
Nordic cities also have walkable downtown areas. I tried walking around downtown Toronto. It was terrible. Everything is spaced too far apart and each area is very specialized. I found it hard to replace are regular day in Oslo, where I walk to a bookstore, look at some books, then go past an ice cream place to get some ice cream. Later maybe get some dinner before I walk into a movie theatre and watch a movie. In Toronto your feet would hurt bad if you tried that. You have to use a car to move around.
So what you want depends on whether you are into a more urban style European lifestyle or if you want the more car-centric North American lifestyle.
For adults without children, there are many things which are nicer in Canada though. E.g. they have very large apartment complexes with a lot of facilities like their own library swimming pool etc.
Basically Canada offers more material benefits: easier access to swimming pools, more sextion in stores, bigger houses, cheaper cars etc. Nordic countries offer more family oriented work-life balance. However Canadians are also more social and easier to get to know than Scandinavians. If you are a very social and outgoing person, Scandinavia can be a bit though initially.
Each Nordic country of course is a bit different in what it offers. Denmark is amazing for biking, great beaches etc. Norway has impressive and very accessible nature and outdoor activities. While Canada of course has large nature areas I would claim it is more accessible in Norway. You can just jump on a subway in Oslo and go skiing or Snowboarding after work in Norway. Sweden is a bit in between Norway and Denmark. Finland I don’t know well enough.

从在不同国家生活的经验来看，我认为很难说一个国家肯定比另一个国家好。这在很大程度上取决于你作为一个人的价值，你有什么样的工作，你在生活中处于什么位置。你是单身，还是有孩子和家庭等等？
将加拿大与北欧国家进行比较可能是很诱人的，因为它们都在北方，而且被称为相当成功的国家。然而，这些国家彼此之间存在着巨大的差异。
我没有在加拿大呆过很长时间，但我在美国生活过，而且我和一个加拿大人结了婚。我对加拿大的印象是，它有点像美国。去掉美国真正不好的东西，你就得到了加拿大。
虽然加拿大人喜欢将加拿大与欧洲相提并论，但它真的与欧洲完全不同。加拿大与美国更为相似。作为一个访问加拿大的挪威人，我感到惊讶的是，加拿大的郊区、商店、市中心、公共交通、人们的交往方式等都与美国非常相似。
从欧洲的角度来看，我发现，与我在挪威或欧洲其他地方所习惯的相比，多伦多及其周边地区的公共交通非常少。例如，拥有100万居民的密西沙加没有地铁或有轨电车，只有一个相当简陋的公交网络。奥斯陆的人口只有多伦多的一半，但它有一个广泛的地铁网络（比多伦多大得，而后者有着更多的人口），广泛的有轨电车网络和公共汽车，两者形成鲜明对比。
如果你想找一个开车容易和方便的地方，加拿大可能更好。想拥有一栋大房子并迅速发展事业。然而，如果你重视工作和生活的平衡，那么北欧国家会更好。这里更多的社会设置有利于儿童和家庭生活：更短的工作日，更多的工作自主权和灵活性。更好的产假和托儿解决方案。就我所见，北欧的社区也更适合儿童。它们往往建得像小村庄一样，孩子们可以在房屋、操场、学校等之间安全移动。在加拿大，似乎所有的房子都是沿着汽车道路建造的，因为每栋房子都有车库。在挪威，人们倾向于将车库放在远离房屋的地方，以便建立一个没有汽车的社区。到处散落的操场比我在加拿大社区散步时看到的还要多。
北欧的城市也有适合散步的市中心地区。我试着在多伦多市中心散步。这很糟糕。所有的东西都隔得太远，每个区域都很专业。我发现很难取代在奥斯陆的常规日子，我走到一家书店，看一些书，然后经过一家冰淇淋店，买一些冰淇淋。后来也许会吃点晚饭，然后再走进一家电影院看电影。在多伦多，如果你想这样做，你的脚会很疼。你必须使用汽车来移动。
所以你想要什么取决于你是喜欢更多城市风格的欧洲生活方式，还是想要更多以汽车为中心的北美生活方式。
对于没有孩子的成年人来说，加拿大有很多东西是比较好的。例如，他们有非常大的公寓楼，这里有很多设施，如他们自己的图书馆游泳池等。
基本上加拿大提供了更多的物质利益：更容易获得游泳池，商店里有更多的选择，更大的房子，更便宜的汽车等等。北欧国家提供更多以家庭为导向的工作和生活平衡。然而加拿大人也比斯堪的纳维亚人更善于社交，更容易结识。如果你是一个非常善于社交和外向的人，斯堪的纳维亚半岛最初可能会有点难。
当然，每个北欧国家提供的东西都有点不同。丹麦的自行车、海滩等都很不错。挪威有令人印象深刻和非常容易接近的自然和户外活动。虽然加拿大当然也有着大片的自然区域，但我认为挪威的自然区域更容易到达。你可以在奥斯陆跳上地铁，下班后去挪威滑雪或滑雪板。瑞典有点介于挪威和丹麦之间。芬兰我不太了解。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

Alan Dillman
“Everything is spaced too far apart and each area is very specialized.”
We definitely space things out, because we can. The area specialization might be a Toronto/Ontario thing.
Western Canadian cities tend to be laid out so that each neighbourhood has access to some shopping. For instance, I can get banking, bread or a snack about 5 minutes walk from me, or about 2.0 km in different directions are two supermarkets. Plus fine dining, drug store, pet stores, et cetera. The local recreation center is 1.7 km. 900 meters if I take shortcuts that google maps isn’t aware of. such as along side a soccer/football pitch.
Still more like US neighbourhoods, I am sure, but we try to have livable communities, instead of bedroom neighbourhoods and distant shopping centres.
The closest shopping centre has apartment buildings alongside it, as well as row houses for seniors. They are also five and ten minutes from a choice of supermarkets and all the stuff my neighbourhood has.
We do have to work on public transportation though.

"一切都间隔得太远，每个领域都非常专业化。"
我们肯定会把事情分开，因为我们可以。区域专业化可能只是多伦多/安大略的事情。
加拿大西部城市的布局倾向于使每个社区都能获得一些购物机会。例如，我可以在离我步行5分钟的地方买到银行业务、面包或小吃，或者在不同方向约2.0公里处有两家超市。另外还有高级餐厅、药店、宠物店等等。当地的娱乐中心是1.7公里。如果我走谷歌地图不知道的捷径，则是900米，比如在一个足球场边上。
我敢肯定，这仍然更像美国的社区，但我们试图建立宜居社区，而不是卧室社区和遥远的购物中心。
最近的购物中心旁边有公寓楼，也有老年人的排屋。他们距离可供选择的超市和我所在社区的所有东西也有5到10分钟的路程。
不过我们确实要在公共交通上下功夫。

Erik Engheim
March 18, 2020
Actually where my mother and father live in the outskirts of Toronto, it is a bit like this. There is road close by with all sorts of stores. But it is not like walking in a big city. What I mean is if you are in town Oslo, it offers the kind of things a proper city does. You can go into a specialized bookstore, a store for artists with oil painting stuff. There are several large movie theaters, museums, a board game, sci-fi and comic book store etc. You know kind of specialized stores you don’t find in say a typical smaller town. All those things I am sure exists in Toronto, but the city is spaced out and things seems organized by function. Say when we went to a movie theatre in Toronto, it was just enormous. There was a huge parking lot outside and there was some dining. So if you went there, then you had kind of made up your mind what you wanted to do that evening. Maybe watch a movie and then go eat. You are not going to browse a board game store afterwards. If you are you first have to walk some distance to locate your car on the large parking lot and find the area where that kind of stuff exists and drive there. I find that in these North American cities, the car is your legs.
There is also the lack of urban life. These enormous movie theaters with with huge parking lots may be very functional: You get huge movie sextions, great seats, lots of snacks, and park conveniently. But all the charm of city life is gone. You just stroll across a pretty dead parking lot to the entrance.
Contrast that with going to a theatre in a Dutch city. You walk along a bustling canal with people sitting outside enjoying food by small tables while people move past. You walk past all this life as you enter your movie theatre. Maybe you see some people on the canal outside the theatre enjoying themselves on the boat.
Not sure I am getting this across well, but the urban ambiance and charm is just all missing from this very functional setup. North American cities seem to be a lot about: all residential houses go in this area. All restaurants in this area, all offices go here, and then some big highways to connect it all.
Although I do notice Canadian cities are not as extreme in this regard as many American cities are.
This setup is of course not without benefits. I found driving and shopping in America amazing. You quickly get onto high speed roads and zip along until you hit a big box store, where you park right outside the mega store you want. Inside you got everything you want. Everything is organized and categorized and you get a load of stuff you load up your car with easily and drive home.
Shopping in an European city tends to be messier and slower. Stores are smaller and scattered about. You need to ping pong more around. More walking. So in terms of efficiency it may not be great. But if you want to just enjoy a day out in the city it is unparalleled.

事实上，我母亲和父亲住在多伦多郊区的地方，就有点像你说的这样。附近有路，有各种各样的商店。但与大城市中心的散步并没有什么关联。我的意思是，如果你在奥斯陆，它能提供一个适当的城市所做的那种东西。你可以进入一家专业书店，一家为艺术家提供油画材料的商店。有几个大的电影院，博物馆，棋盘游戏，科幻和漫画书商店等等。你知道的，就是那种你在典型的小城镇找不到的专业商店。我相信所有这些东西在多伦多都存在，但这个城市是有间隔的，东西似乎是按功能组织的。比方说，当我们去多伦多的一家电影院时，它非常巨大。外面有一个巨大的停车场，有一些餐饮。因此，如果你去那里，那么你就已经决定了你那晚要做什么。也许看一场电影，然后去吃饭。之后你是不会去逛棋牌游戏店的。如果你要去的话，你首先要走一段路，在大的停车场上找到你的车，再找到存在那种东西的地方，然后开车去。我发现在这些北美城市，汽车就是你的腿。
还有就是缺乏城市生活。这些巨大的电影院和巨大的停车场可能非常实用：你可以得到大量的电影选择，超棒的座位，大量的小吃，并方便地停车。但所有城市生活的魅力都消失了。你只是漫步穿过一个死气沉沉的停车场到电影院入口处。
这与去荷兰城市的剧院看电影形成了对比。你会沿着熙熙攘攘的运河行走，人们坐在外面的小桌旁享受食物，同时人们也在走过。当你进入电影院时，你走过所有这些生活。也许你还能看到剧院外的运河上有一些人在船上享受。
我不确定我是否能很好地理解这一点，但城市的氛围和魅力在这种非常实用的设置中是完全缺失的。北美的城市似乎有很多关于：所有的住宅都在这个区域。所有的餐馆都在这个区域，所有的办公室都在这里，然后是一些大的高速公路来连接这一切。
虽然我确实注意到加拿大的城市在这方面不像许多美国城市那样极端。
当然，这种设置并非没有好处。我发现在美国开车和购物的体验都很棒。你很快就上了高速路，一路狂奔，直到你遇到一家大卖场，你把车停在你想要的巨型商店外面。里面有你想要的一切。所有东西都被组织和分类，你得到的东西很容易装上你的车，然后开车回家。
在欧洲城市购物往往更混乱、更缓慢。商店比较小，而且分散在各处。你需要在周围更多的地方来来回回。走更多的路。所以就效率而言，它可能不是很好。但如果你想在城市里享受一天的生活，它是无可比拟的。

Inés Del Revés
I am not the questioner but I was eager for an answer like yours since it’s been my suspicion for quite a while now -as an architect and urbanist- that the main issue which makes family life so hard in North-America is precisely the one you have spotted: how urban design configures your whole existence and how our life choices are very much influenced by picking the right place to develop our personal project.
I feel attracted to both venues but as an example in my personal case though I very much appreciate solitude and nature I guess the smart move for me would be Northern Europe as I am someone with a slight disability which makes isolated life in the wild open a much harder environment to attend family health issues if things turn ugly.

我不是提问者，但我渴望得到你这样的答案，因为作为一个建筑师和城市主义者，我已经怀疑了很久，在北美使家庭生活如此艰难的主要问题正是你所发现的：城市的设计如何塑造了你的整个生活方式，以及我们的生活选择如何在很大程度上受到选择正确的地方来发展我们的个人项目的影响。
我觉得这两个地方都很吸引人，但就我个人而言，虽然我非常欣赏孤独和自然，但我想对我来说明智的做法是北欧，因为我是一个有轻微残疾的人，这使得在野外的孤立生活变得更加困难，如果事情变开始得困难，野外孤立的环境更难处理家庭健康问题。

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