中国的太阳能/风能发电量现已超过美国所有家庭和工业用电量，这种廉价电力直接促进了其在全球工业领域的主导地位
正文翻译
评论翻译
rickdeckard8
They don’t really, more than nuclear plants but less than fossile fuel. The problem with wind and solar is that energy is much more expensive than just drilling oil and burn it and that puts an immense pressure on societies to keep their people happy.
实际上，风能和太阳能发电的能耗并不高，比核电站高，但比化石燃料发电低。风能和太阳能的问题在于，它们的能源成本远高于开采石油并燃烧，这给社会带来了巨大的压力，迫使其努力维持民众的幸福感。
Common-Image-3758
Solar is the cheapest form of energy since Christian prayer. You can't seriously believe drilling for oil is cheaper?
太阳能是继基督教祈祷之后最便宜的能源形式。你不会真的认为开采石油更便宜吧？
narfig_agar
It's not more expensive. It's far, far cheaper in every way. With minimal maintenance it's free energy from the sky for 50 years.
它并不更贵，而是在各方面都便宜得多。只需极少的维护，就能享受长达50年的免费太阳能。
u/mid-random
mid-random
The most widely cited measure for comparing energy sources is the levelized cost of energy, or LCOE. It captures the total lifetime cost of building and operating a power plant divided by the total energy it produces. Lazard, a financial advisory firm that publishes annual LCOE analyses, released its 2024 upxe with these unsubsidized ranges per megawatt-hour:
Onshore wind: $27 to $73
Utility-scale solar: $29 to $92
Natural gas (combined cycle): $45 to $108
Coal: $69 to $168
At the low end, the cheapest new wind and solar projects cost roughly 40 to 60 percent less than the cheapest new gas plants, and less than half the cost of coal. Even at the high end of the renewable ranges, solar and wind overlap with or beat the midrange of fossil fuels. These figures reflect unsubsidized costs, meaning they don’t factor in tax credits or government incentives that would push renewable prices even lower.
比较能源来源最常用的指标是平准化能源成本（LCOE）。它衡量的是一座发电厂的建设和运营全生命周期总成本除以其总发电量。金融咨询公司拉扎德（Lazard）每年发布LCOE分析报告，并发布了2024年更新版，其中包含以下每兆瓦时未补贴的LCOE范围：
陆上风电：27 至 73 美元
公用事业规模太阳能：29 至 92 美元
天然气（联合循环）：45 至 108 美元
煤炭：69 至 168 美元
在低成本领域，最便宜的新建风能和太阳能项目比最便宜的新建燃气电厂成本低约40%至60%，不到煤炭发电成本的一半。即使在可再生能源成本的高端，太阳能和风能的成本也与化石燃料的中端水平相当或更低。这些数据反映的是未补贴成本，也就是说，它们没有考虑税收抵免或政府激励措施，而这些措施会进一步降低可再生能源的价格。
u/turtlepsp
turtlepsp
$73 for wind and $92 for solar is greater than $45 for gas and $69 for coal. Oil and gas are cheaper. Checkmate! /s
This has been researched endlessly, anyone who can't accept it either will not never learn or paid for by oil to take that position. The goal post will keep moving until everything is under water or the oil industry collapses.
风能73美元/小时，太阳能92美元/小时，都高于天然气45美元/小时和煤炭69美元/小时。石油和天然气更便宜。胜负已分！
这个问题已经被反复研究过了，任何无法接受的人要么永远不会明白，要么就是被石油公司收买才持这种立场。最终目标会不断变化，直到一切都被淹没或者石油行业崩溃为止。
u/leoencore
leoencore
It's not more expensive though.
不过它的价格并不更贵。
HITACHIMAGICWANDS
So, I’m not going to explain myself. I live near a bunch of windmills, they leak oil, kill birds and seems to be worthless after a number of years. I think in theory it could be good but as it is now I feel it might actually be bad for the environment.
Solar panels are awesome in urban areas on roofs and shit, but in fields that could otherwise be trees they kind of piss me off.
所以，我不想解释。我家附近有很多风车，它们漏油，还会杀死鸟类，而且几年后似乎就没什么用了。我觉得理论上风车可能不错，但就目前的情况来看，我觉得它实际上可能对环境有害。
太阳能电池板在城市地区的屋顶上很棒，但在原本可以种树的田地里，它们就让我很恼火。
u/riverrats2000
riverrats2000
okay, now compare them to coal powerplants. The alternative is not doing nothing, it's getting the energy a different way
好的，现在把它们和燃煤电厂比较一下。另一种选择并非无所作为，而是以不同的方式获取能源。
MikeyKillerBTFU
Yes, definitely worse than dumping literal tons of coal burn into the atmosphere.
是的，这绝对比直接向大气中倾倒数吨煤炭燃烧产生的废气更糟糕。
Sgt_Fox
Reminder that coal pollution also contains radioactive material that spreads along with the sulfur dioxide and the rest of the waste material from the dirtiest fuel we're using
提醒大家，煤炭污染中也含有放射性物质，这些物质会随着二氧化硫以及我们使用的最脏燃料产生的其他废料一起扩散。
u/dropkickoz
dropkickoz
Do wind turbines kill birds?
Yes—but only a fraction as many as are killed by house cats, buildings, or even the fossil fuel operations that wind farms replace.
风力涡轮机会导致鸟类死亡吗？
是的——但与家猫、建筑物，甚至风力发电场所取代的化石燃料发电作业造成的鸟类死亡数量相比，风力涡轮机造成的鸟类死亡数量只是很小一部分。
SDL68
Just avoid installing windmills along migratory bird routes
只要避免在候鸟迁徙路线上安装风车即可。
u/seanflyon
seanflyon
Or put small whistles on them. Or put in particularly large windmills that rotate at fewer RPM and generally don't hit birds.
或者在上面装上小哨子。或者装上转速较低、通常不会撞到鸟类的超大型风车。
u/kompergator
kompergator
Cats kill millions more birds. I doubt you’re in favour of outlawing cats.
Cars leak millions more times oil. I doubt you’re in favour of banning cars.
Both your counterarguments are less than paper thin.
猫捕杀的鸟类比鸟类多数百万只。我怀疑你会赞成禁止养猫。
汽车漏油量比鸟类多数百万倍。我怀疑你会赞成禁止汽车。
你的两个反驳论点都站不住脚。
Sgt_Fox
"I'm not going to explain myself" is a solid way to convince people of your incorrect and unpopular opinions /s
“我不会解释”这句话很容易让人接受你错误且不受欢迎的观点。
FauxReal
They also don't crate fly ash which is a vital carcinogen to the cancer treatment industry.
他们也不生产粉煤灰，而粉煤灰是癌症治疗行业的重要致癌物。
u/pm_me_beerz
pm_me_beerz
Try living next to an oil refinery or power plant. They have to exist somewhere.
试想一下住在炼油厂或发电厂旁边是什么感觉。它们总得存在于某个地方。
eskjcSFW
Sounds like your wind turbine aren't properly maintained.
听起来像是你们的风力涡轮机没有得到妥善维护。
u/starker
starker
Yeah, it’s not like natural gas power plants don’t require maintenance. It’s not like we release wind turbines to the wild never to be seen again. A company owns them and needs to manage their upkeep.
没错，天然气发电厂并非不需要维护。我们也不会把风力涡轮机随意丢弃在野外，从此消失得无影无踪。它们都归公司所有，公司需要负责它们的维护保养。
u/BasvanS
BasvanS
How much oil is there in a wind turbine? Round up to the next 100 liters.
I’m really happy people start caring about birds, oil spills and nature, but fuck this shit.
一台风力涡轮机里有多少石油？向上取整到下一个100升。
我很高兴人们开始关注鸟类、石油泄漏和自然环境，但去他妈的这破事儿。
el_diego
Probably juiced as a racket
可能被当成敲诈勒索的工具
Gerroh
There are so many things that kill way more birds than windmills that if people were really worried about birds, they'd have no time to bother with the windmill kill count.
有很多东西比风车杀死的鸟类多得多，如果人们真的关心鸟类，他们就不会有时间去费心统计风车造成的鸟类死亡数量了。
Polymeriz
I mean you're just wrong if you think windmills kill more wildlife than a coal or oil plant.
我的意思是，如果你认为风力发电厂比燃煤或燃油发电厂杀死更多野生动物，那就大错特错了。
zeptillian
They don't leak oil like drilling for oil, refining it and transporting it around the globe does.
Killing of birds should obviously be minimized though.
Putting solar panels on all the roofs in an urban area would actually have the effect of absorbing more solar radiation rather than reflecting it back into space so it can actually heat up the areas it's deployed in.
There are tradeoffs with everything.
它们不像石油钻探、提炼和全球运输那样会泄漏石油。
当然，杀害鸟类的行为应该尽量减少。
在城市地区所有屋顶上都安装太阳能电池板，实际上会吸收更多的太阳辐射，而不是将其反射回太空，因此反而会加热安装区域。
凡事都有利弊。
u/brickmaj
brickmaj
Comparing leaking lubricating oil to fossil fuel impacts is insane.
将润滑油泄漏的影响与化石燃料的影响相提并论简直荒谬。
a2controversial
The fields that solar panels are put in are usually former ag fields. I like the idea of rewilding old farmland but that’s a costly endeavor and can’t be done for each plot of land. Utilizing it for clean energy production is a good land use and with agrovoltaics you can still grow crops on the same lot.
太阳能电池板通常安装在以前的农田上。我喜欢让旧农田恢复自然状态的想法，但这成本很高，而且不可能适用于每一块土地。利用这些土地生产清洁能源是一种很好的土地利用方式，而且通过农光互补，你仍然可以在同一块土地上种植作物。
u/Spiritual_Panic_6992
Spiritual_Panic_6992
In stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
In stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.←You are here now
Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.
第一阶段，我们认为什么都不会发生。
第二阶段，我们认为可能即将发生某些事情，但我们不应该采取任何行动。
在第三阶段，我们会说也许我们应该做点什么，但我们无能为力。←您现在在这里
在第四阶段，我们会说也许我们本来可以做些什么，但现在为时已晚。
u/MrRightHanded
MrRightHanded
Yes Minister still ever relevant.
《是，大臣》依然具有现实意义。
lorarc
Yes, but that's from the sequel, Yes, Prime Minister.
是的，但那是出自续集《是，首相》。
u/Theduckisback
Theduckisback
I dont know that fossil fuel people are that interested in the second narrative. They'll just say it's bad because China is doing it, and point out how important fossil fuels still are to the global economy based on the US doing stupid shit in the middle east to create a global economic crisis.
我不认为化石燃料行业的人对第二种说法感兴趣。他们只会说这是不好的，因为中国也在这么做，然后指出化石燃料对全球经济仍然有多么重要，理由是美国在中东的愚蠢行径引发了全球经济危机。
u/Kevadu
Kevadu
Hey, don't forget the "but China is building coal powerplants" excuse.
嘿，别忘了还有“但是中国正在建设燃煤电厂”这个借口。
elephantmouse92
most conservatives would agree to follow Chinas energy policy, but thats not what your advocating is it
大多数保守派人士都会同意效仿中国的能源政策，但这并非你所倡导的，对吗？
u/Kevadu
Kevadu
I didn't "advocate" for anything in that post. There seems to be a lot of projection here.
I would love it if we followed China's energy policy broadly, but it would make absolutely no sense to copy it exactly when we have abundant, cheap natural gas in the US. But regardless we're not doing either.
我在那篇文章里并没有“提倡”任何事情。这里似乎有很多臆测。
我当然希望我们能大体上效仿中国的能源政策，但美国拥有丰富且廉价的天然气，照搬中国的政策完全没有意义。但无论如何，我们最终都没有这样做。
u/silverionmox
silverionmox
China is burning 56% of the world's coal. That's a fact, deal with it.
中国消耗了全球56%的煤炭。这是事实，接受现实吧。
Fake_William_Shatner
China gets more sun, duh!
中国日照时间更长，这还用说吗！
u/elephantmouse92
elephantmouse92
China also leads on new coal power plants, coal lng gasification, and nuclear power plants. they are doing this diverse energy mix to decrease the leverage other countries have over its energy sovereignty not altruistic environmental causes (have you been to China lol)
中国在新建燃煤电厂、煤气化和核电站方面也处于领先地位。他们推行这种多元化的能源结构是为了减少其他国家对其能源主权的影响力，而不是出于利他主义的环保目的（你去过中国吗？哈哈）。
u/Mozambique_Sauce
Mozambique_Sauce
If you hear them change their tune you're paying them too much attention.
如果你听到他们改变了说法，说明你对他们太过关注了。
u/Wloak
Wloak
I'm a renewable fan, but there's a reason this happened and it isn't because China is paving the way.
China offered massive incentives to companies to build renewable energy plants, and announced they were ending them unless completed by a certain date. This led to companies building a ton of energy farms producing 1/10th of the expected output but getting the full credit because it was based on potential output. What gets reported is the total potential output and not the actual.
我支持可再生能源，但这事发生是有原因的，并不是因为中国在为此铺路。
中国曾向企业提供巨额补贴以鼓励其建设可再生能源电站，并宣布若未在特定日期前完工，将终止补贴。这导致许多企业建造了大量实际产量仅为预期产量十分之一的电站，却获得了全额补贴，因为补贴是基于潜在产量计算的。最终公布的是潜在总产量，而非实际产量。
Necessary-Music-6685
Emissions have been dropping in the US for two decades. China burns more coal than the rest of the world combined.
美国的碳排放量已经连续二十年下降。中国的煤炭消耗量比世界其他国家加起来还要多。
Fluffy-Rope-8719
Cool, what are their emissions per capita and what has been their emissions growth/shrinkage vs the US?
好的，他们的人均排放量是多少？与美国相比，他们的排放量增长/减少情况如何？
Ok-Assistant-1761
Estimates China: 8-9 tons CO2 per person US: 14-15 tons CO2 per person
China emits ~2x the gross amount but has 4.2x population. Source: trust me bro, found it on the internets.
估计中国人均二氧化碳排放量：8-9吨；美国人均二氧化碳排放量：14-15吨。
中国的二氧化碳排放总量约为美国的2倍，但人口却是美国的4.2倍。来源：相信我，兄弟，这是我在网上找到的。
u/Necessary-Music-6685
Necessary-Music-6685
Their emissions have been skyrocketing while the US’s have been in decline.
Did you know that China consumes more coal in a single year than the US has in its entire existence?
他们的排放量一直在飙升，而美国的排放量却在下降。
你知道吗？中国一年消耗的煤炭比美国建国以来消耗的煤炭还要多。
Space_Conductor
I do not know where this vehement defending of China came from on Reddit. Has to be bots slowly propagandizing people. Like, I get we hate trump. That's understandable but people act like America is the worst country in the world in everything.
Their foreign policy is abysmal right now but they are still an insanely diverse country and just about as free as you can get.
China is consistently near the bottom of the human rights index and America is consistently near the top.
Their are things good about China but A LOT of bad. Whereas (I believe) there is a lot of good in America but some bad.
I mean, just imagine people from mainland China saying the shit that Americans say about the government dya after day. They would shut. That. Shit. Down.
我不知道红迪上这股强烈的护华风潮是从哪儿来的。肯定是机器人慢慢地在煽动民众。我知道我们都讨厌特朗普，这可以理解，但人们现在好像觉得美国在所有方面都是世界上最糟糕的国家。
他们目前的外交政策糟糕透顶，但他们仍然是一个极其多元化的国家，而且几乎是你能想象到的最自由的国家之一。
中国的人权指数一直处于垫底位置，而美国的人权指数则一直处于前列。
中国有很多优点，但也有很多缺点。而（我认为）美国也有很多优点，但也有一些缺点。
我的意思是，想象一下，如果中国大陆的人每天都像美国人那样抨击政府，那会是什么景象？他们肯定会把那些破事儿都堵死。
u/liva608
liva608
I'm not defending their human rights. I never mentioned human rights. I only presented facts about emissions to correct the misinformation presented above. China can be bad at one thing and good at another.
我并非在捍卫他们的任泉。我从未提及任泉。我只是列举了排放方面的数据，以纠正上述错误信息。中国在某些方面可能表现不佳，但在另一些方面却表现出色。
Fluffy-Rope-8719
I don't know why you are conflating rational analysis with broad-spectrum support for China. You can recognize that they are advancing while the US is declining while still not preferring that outcome.
I agree with you, life under Chinese rule would likely be terrible if you aren't textbook perfect Han Chinese.
This doesn't change the fact that their advancement of renewable energy sources far exceeds that of the US, and China is incredibly well positioned to fill the global soft power void the US just ripped itself out of. Just on a power grid position alone China is crushing the US, which has many serious implications. But just sticking our fingers in our ears and screaming "nuh uh they're the bad guys" is counterproductive at best, and woefully destructive at worst.
我不明白你为什么把理性分析和对中国的广泛支持混为一谈。你可以承认中国在发展而美国在衰落，但你仍然可能并不希望出现这种结果。
我同意你的看法，如果你不是教科书上定义的完美汉族人，那么在中国的统治下生活可能会非常糟糕。
但这并不改变中国在可再生能源领域的发展远超美国的事实，而且中国完全有能力填补美国刚刚失去的全球软实力空白。仅就电网地位而言，中国就已遥遥领先于美国，这具有诸多深远的影响。
但是，如果我们捂住耳朵大喊“不不不，他们是坏人”，往好了说是适得其反，往坏了说是造成了极其严重的破坏。
Space_Conductor
"conflating" lol. yup, I'm on Reddit. I'm not conflating anything. There IS broad-spectrum support for China on Reddit in every. single. thread about China or America, this one included. Maybe it's bots, maybe the propaganda has worked. Idk. I personally love both countries and have always defended both countries but in this thread, america was being trashed again so I defend them. Next thread if China is bashed I will defend them.
“混淆”？哈哈。没错，我在红迪上。我没混淆任何东西。红迪上所有关于中国或美国的帖子，包括这个帖子，都存在对中国的广泛支持。也许是机器人，也许是宣传奏效了。我不知道。我个人热爱这两个国家，也一直支持它们，但在这个帖子里，美国又被抨击了，所以我才维护美国。如果下一个帖子里中国被抨击，我也会维护中国。
u/Ass4ssinX
Ass4ssinX
LOL American people are free? Sure, to be fleeced by big Capital.
People are defending China more now because more people actually looked into China. The West's propaganda just isn't as effective anymore.
哈哈，美国人自由了？当然，自由自在地被大资本榨取。
现在更多人维护中国，是因为更多人真正了解了中国。西方的宣传已经不再那么有效了。
joogabah
THEIR foreign policy is abysmal? the USA just launched another illegal aggressive war, the highest crime possible. Man you people have it totally upside down. Are YOU a state department bot?
他们的外交政策糟糕透顶？美国刚刚又发动了一场非法侵略战争，这是最严重的罪行。你们这些人完全搞反了。你是国务院的机器人吗？
u/Wonckay
Wonckay
The “their” in that comment refers precisely to the US.
那条评论中的“他们”指的正是美国。
u/Space_Conductor
Space_Conductor
What?! I agree and said their foreign policy is abysmal. I was talking about the US not China
什么？！我同意，我也说过他们的外交政策糟糕透顶。我指的是美国，不是中国。
u/Dramatic_Security3
Dramatic_Security3
Everything you've been told about China has come from the US and its proxies. Those human rights indexes are worthless if they're being created by American and European institutions. They frx western capitalist countries as morally superior, yet the countries that fall toward the bottom like the DRC and Sudan are controlled by puppets of those same capitalist regimes. The US literally has legal slavery, is disappearing people, and is engaged in multiple GENOCIDEs, yet it still gets a score of 81 from Freedom House.
People have started defending China because we've come to realize we've been lied to. I married a Chinese person, learned the language, spoke to the people there, and realized that everything I've been told about the country is false.
你所听到的关于中国的一切信息都来自美国及其代理人。如果人权指数是由美国和欧洲机构制定的，那么它们就毫无价值。
他们将西方资本主义国家描绘成道德优越的典范，然而像刚果民主共和国和苏丹这样排名垫底的国家，却被这些资本主义政权的傀儡所控制。美国明明存在合法的奴隶制，正在进行人口失踪，并犯下多起种族灭绝罪行，却仍然在自由之家的评分中获得了81分。
人们开始为中国辩护，是因为我们意识到自己一直被蒙在鼓里。我娶了一位中国人，学习了中文，与中国人交谈，然后意识到我之前听到的关于这个国家的一切都是假的。
u/t1010011010
t1010011010
Guess what happens if you go to prison in C. You also have to work, lol, is that legal slavery? If you get sent to a labor camp even more so
猜猜在C坐牢会发生什么？你还得劳动，哈哈，这算合法NU隶制吗？要是被送到劳改营就更糟了。
grundar
“people act like America is the worst country in the world in everything.”
“人们表现得好像美国在所有方面都是世界上最糟糕的国家。”
Edgelords gonna edge.
This isn't new -- angsty diatribes about how the US is the worst ever at everything go back to at least the 60s and Vietnam (see, for example, Chomsky criticizing America while shilling for the Khmer Rouge despite their actively-occurring genocidal massacres).
Most of the comments you're getting triggered by don't seem particularly informed about or interested in the details of China, as they're mainly interested in using China as a cudgel with which to beat America.
Since the main point is "America bad! (I'm so edgy!)", it's questionable whether attempting to engage with those comments will result in a good-faith response.
(For the edgelords, yes, I've been to China numerous times. It's not the worst ever, just like it's not the best ever -- false dichotomies are false.)
这并非新鲜事——关于美国在所有方面都是有史以来最差的愤懑之词至少可以追溯到 60 年代的越南战争时期（例如，乔姆斯基批评美国，同时为红色高棉摇旗呐喊，尽管红色高棉当时正在进行种族灭绝式的大屠杀）。
让你感到愤怒的大多数评论似乎对中国的细节并不特别了解或感兴趣，因为他们主要感兴趣的是利用中国作为打击美国的武器。
由于主要观点是“美国不好！（我好另类！）”，因此尝试回应这些评论是否会得到真诚的回应是值得怀疑的。
（致那些喜欢唱反调的人：是的，我去过中国很多次。它不是最糟糕的，就像它也不是最好的一样——非此即彼的说法是错误的。）
u/Space_Conductor
Space_Conductor
This can not be a real. I have never seen a more insanely Reddit comment in my life. How many times can you use edgelord??? Lol. If you are not a bot my dude, you need to reuate how you communicate online because what you typed is wildly over-written for a comment on a jack off website.
You may be right. I don't care anymore. You need help and if this is the type of stuff that gets uovoted then let's just say!!!. Big Yikes (typing this from my rented room in a tiny village in China) so yes, I have been here before the trolls come out!!!
这不可能是真的。我这辈子都没见过这么离谱的Reddit评论。你到底要用多少次“边缘人”这个词啊？？？哈哈。老兄，如果你不是机器人，那你真该好好反思一下你的网络交流方式了，因为你打的这些字，对于一个自慰网站来说，简直是胡扯到家了。
你说的或许有道理。我不在乎了。你需要帮助，如果这种帖子会被点踩，那我就直说了！！！真是太糟糕了（我现在在中国一个小村庄的租房里打字），所以，是的，在喷子出现之前，我就已经经历过这种事了！！！
They don’t really, more than nuclear plants but less than fossile fuel. The problem with wind and solar is that energy is much more expensive than just drilling oil and burn it and that puts an immense pressure on societies to keep their people happy.
实际上，风能和太阳能发电的能耗并不高，比核电站高，但比化石燃料发电低。风能和太阳能的问题在于，它们的能源成本远高于开采石油并燃烧，这给社会带来了巨大的压力，迫使其努力维持民众的幸福感。
Common-Image-3758
Solar is the cheapest form of energy since Christian prayer. You can't seriously believe drilling for oil is cheaper?
太阳能是继基督教祈祷之后最便宜的能源形式。你不会真的认为开采石油更便宜吧？
narfig_agar
It's not more expensive. It's far, far cheaper in every way. With minimal maintenance it's free energy from the sky for 50 years.
它并不更贵，而是在各方面都便宜得多。只需极少的维护，就能享受长达50年的免费太阳能。
u/mid-random
mid-random
The most widely cited measure for comparing energy sources is the levelized cost of energy, or LCOE. It captures the total lifetime cost of building and operating a power plant divided by the total energy it produces. Lazard, a financial advisory firm that publishes annual LCOE analyses, released its 2024 upxe with these unsubsidized ranges per megawatt-hour:
Onshore wind: $27 to $73
Utility-scale solar: $29 to $92
Natural gas (combined cycle): $45 to $108
Coal: $69 to $168
At the low end, the cheapest new wind and solar projects cost roughly 40 to 60 percent less than the cheapest new gas plants, and less than half the cost of coal. Even at the high end of the renewable ranges, solar and wind overlap with or beat the midrange of fossil fuels. These figures reflect unsubsidized costs, meaning they don’t factor in tax credits or government incentives that would push renewable prices even lower.
比较能源来源最常用的指标是平准化能源成本（LCOE）。它衡量的是一座发电厂的建设和运营全生命周期总成本除以其总发电量。金融咨询公司拉扎德（Lazard）每年发布LCOE分析报告，并发布了2024年更新版，其中包含以下每兆瓦时未补贴的LCOE范围：
陆上风电：27 至 73 美元
公用事业规模太阳能：29 至 92 美元
天然气（联合循环）：45 至 108 美元
煤炭：69 至 168 美元
在低成本领域，最便宜的新建风能和太阳能项目比最便宜的新建燃气电厂成本低约40%至60%，不到煤炭发电成本的一半。即使在可再生能源成本的高端，太阳能和风能的成本也与化石燃料的中端水平相当或更低。这些数据反映的是未补贴成本，也就是说，它们没有考虑税收抵免或政府激励措施，而这些措施会进一步降低可再生能源的价格。
u/turtlepsp
turtlepsp
$73 for wind and $92 for solar is greater than $45 for gas and $69 for coal. Oil and gas are cheaper. Checkmate! /s
This has been researched endlessly, anyone who can't accept it either will not never learn or paid for by oil to take that position. The goal post will keep moving until everything is under water or the oil industry collapses.
风能73美元/小时，太阳能92美元/小时，都高于天然气45美元/小时和煤炭69美元/小时。石油和天然气更便宜。胜负已分！
这个问题已经被反复研究过了，任何无法接受的人要么永远不会明白，要么就是被石油公司收买才持这种立场。最终目标会不断变化，直到一切都被淹没或者石油行业崩溃为止。
u/leoencore
leoencore
It's not more expensive though.
不过它的价格并不更贵。
HITACHIMAGICWANDS
So, I’m not going to explain myself. I live near a bunch of windmills, they leak oil, kill birds and seems to be worthless after a number of years. I think in theory it could be good but as it is now I feel it might actually be bad for the environment.
Solar panels are awesome in urban areas on roofs and shit, but in fields that could otherwise be trees they kind of piss me off.
所以，我不想解释。我家附近有很多风车，它们漏油，还会杀死鸟类，而且几年后似乎就没什么用了。我觉得理论上风车可能不错，但就目前的情况来看，我觉得它实际上可能对环境有害。
太阳能电池板在城市地区的屋顶上很棒，但在原本可以种树的田地里，它们就让我很恼火。
u/riverrats2000
riverrats2000
okay, now compare them to coal powerplants. The alternative is not doing nothing, it's getting the energy a different way
好的，现在把它们和燃煤电厂比较一下。另一种选择并非无所作为，而是以不同的方式获取能源。
MikeyKillerBTFU
Yes, definitely worse than dumping literal tons of coal burn into the atmosphere.
是的，这绝对比直接向大气中倾倒数吨煤炭燃烧产生的废气更糟糕。
Sgt_Fox
Reminder that coal pollution also contains radioactive material that spreads along with the sulfur dioxide and the rest of the waste material from the dirtiest fuel we're using
提醒大家，煤炭污染中也含有放射性物质，这些物质会随着二氧化硫以及我们使用的最脏燃料产生的其他废料一起扩散。
u/dropkickoz
dropkickoz
Do wind turbines kill birds?
Yes—but only a fraction as many as are killed by house cats, buildings, or even the fossil fuel operations that wind farms replace.
风力涡轮机会导致鸟类死亡吗？
是的——但与家猫、建筑物，甚至风力发电场所取代的化石燃料发电作业造成的鸟类死亡数量相比，风力涡轮机造成的鸟类死亡数量只是很小一部分。
SDL68
Just avoid installing windmills along migratory bird routes
只要避免在候鸟迁徙路线上安装风车即可。
u/seanflyon
seanflyon
Or put small whistles on them. Or put in particularly large windmills that rotate at fewer RPM and generally don't hit birds.
或者在上面装上小哨子。或者装上转速较低、通常不会撞到鸟类的超大型风车。
u/kompergator
kompergator
Cats kill millions more birds. I doubt you’re in favour of outlawing cats.
Cars leak millions more times oil. I doubt you’re in favour of banning cars.
Both your counterarguments are less than paper thin.
猫捕杀的鸟类比鸟类多数百万只。我怀疑你会赞成禁止养猫。
汽车漏油量比鸟类多数百万倍。我怀疑你会赞成禁止汽车。
你的两个反驳论点都站不住脚。
Sgt_Fox
"I'm not going to explain myself" is a solid way to convince people of your incorrect and unpopular opinions /s
“我不会解释”这句话很容易让人接受你错误且不受欢迎的观点。
FauxReal
They also don't crate fly ash which is a vital carcinogen to the cancer treatment industry.
他们也不生产粉煤灰，而粉煤灰是癌症治疗行业的重要致癌物。
u/pm_me_beerz
pm_me_beerz
Try living next to an oil refinery or power plant. They have to exist somewhere.
试想一下住在炼油厂或发电厂旁边是什么感觉。它们总得存在于某个地方。
eskjcSFW
Sounds like your wind turbine aren't properly maintained.
听起来像是你们的风力涡轮机没有得到妥善维护。
u/starker
starker
Yeah, it’s not like natural gas power plants don’t require maintenance. It’s not like we release wind turbines to the wild never to be seen again. A company owns them and needs to manage their upkeep.
没错，天然气发电厂并非不需要维护。我们也不会把风力涡轮机随意丢弃在野外，从此消失得无影无踪。它们都归公司所有，公司需要负责它们的维护保养。
u/BasvanS
BasvanS
How much oil is there in a wind turbine? Round up to the next 100 liters.
I’m really happy people start caring about birds, oil spills and nature, but fuck this shit.
一台风力涡轮机里有多少石油？向上取整到下一个100升。
我很高兴人们开始关注鸟类、石油泄漏和自然环境，但去他妈的这破事儿。
el_diego
Probably juiced as a racket
可能被当成敲诈勒索的工具
Gerroh
There are so many things that kill way more birds than windmills that if people were really worried about birds, they'd have no time to bother with the windmill kill count.
有很多东西比风车杀死的鸟类多得多，如果人们真的关心鸟类，他们就不会有时间去费心统计风车造成的鸟类死亡数量了。
Polymeriz
I mean you're just wrong if you think windmills kill more wildlife than a coal or oil plant.
我的意思是，如果你认为风力发电厂比燃煤或燃油发电厂杀死更多野生动物，那就大错特错了。
zeptillian
They don't leak oil like drilling for oil, refining it and transporting it around the globe does.
Killing of birds should obviously be minimized though.
Putting solar panels on all the roofs in an urban area would actually have the effect of absorbing more solar radiation rather than reflecting it back into space so it can actually heat up the areas it's deployed in.
There are tradeoffs with everything.
它们不像石油钻探、提炼和全球运输那样会泄漏石油。
当然，杀害鸟类的行为应该尽量减少。
在城市地区所有屋顶上都安装太阳能电池板，实际上会吸收更多的太阳辐射，而不是将其反射回太空，因此反而会加热安装区域。
凡事都有利弊。
u/brickmaj
brickmaj
Comparing leaking lubricating oil to fossil fuel impacts is insane.
将润滑油泄漏的影响与化石燃料的影响相提并论简直荒谬。
a2controversial
The fields that solar panels are put in are usually former ag fields. I like the idea of rewilding old farmland but that’s a costly endeavor and can’t be done for each plot of land. Utilizing it for clean energy production is a good land use and with agrovoltaics you can still grow crops on the same lot.
太阳能电池板通常安装在以前的农田上。我喜欢让旧农田恢复自然状态的想法，但这成本很高，而且不可能适用于每一块土地。利用这些土地生产清洁能源是一种很好的土地利用方式，而且通过农光互补，你仍然可以在同一块土地上种植作物。
u/Spiritual_Panic_6992
Spiritual_Panic_6992
In stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
In stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.←You are here now
Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.
第一阶段，我们认为什么都不会发生。
第二阶段，我们认为可能即将发生某些事情，但我们不应该采取任何行动。
在第三阶段，我们会说也许我们应该做点什么，但我们无能为力。←您现在在这里
在第四阶段，我们会说也许我们本来可以做些什么，但现在为时已晚。
u/MrRightHanded
MrRightHanded
Yes Minister still ever relevant.
《是，大臣》依然具有现实意义。
lorarc
Yes, but that's from the sequel, Yes, Prime Minister.
是的，但那是出自续集《是，首相》。
u/Theduckisback
Theduckisback
I dont know that fossil fuel people are that interested in the second narrative. They'll just say it's bad because China is doing it, and point out how important fossil fuels still are to the global economy based on the US doing stupid shit in the middle east to create a global economic crisis.
我不认为化石燃料行业的人对第二种说法感兴趣。他们只会说这是不好的，因为中国也在这么做，然后指出化石燃料对全球经济仍然有多么重要，理由是美国在中东的愚蠢行径引发了全球经济危机。
u/Kevadu
Kevadu
Hey, don't forget the "but China is building coal powerplants" excuse.
嘿，别忘了还有“但是中国正在建设燃煤电厂”这个借口。
elephantmouse92
most conservatives would agree to follow Chinas energy policy, but thats not what your advocating is it
大多数保守派人士都会同意效仿中国的能源政策，但这并非你所倡导的，对吗？
u/Kevadu
Kevadu
I didn't "advocate" for anything in that post. There seems to be a lot of projection here.
I would love it if we followed China's energy policy broadly, but it would make absolutely no sense to copy it exactly when we have abundant, cheap natural gas in the US. But regardless we're not doing either.
我在那篇文章里并没有“提倡”任何事情。这里似乎有很多臆测。
我当然希望我们能大体上效仿中国的能源政策，但美国拥有丰富且廉价的天然气，照搬中国的政策完全没有意义。但无论如何，我们最终都没有这样做。
u/silverionmox
silverionmox
China is burning 56% of the world's coal. That's a fact, deal with it.
中国消耗了全球56%的煤炭。这是事实，接受现实吧。
Fake_William_Shatner
China gets more sun, duh!
中国日照时间更长，这还用说吗！
u/elephantmouse92
elephantmouse92
China also leads on new coal power plants, coal lng gasification, and nuclear power plants. they are doing this diverse energy mix to decrease the leverage other countries have over its energy sovereignty not altruistic environmental causes (have you been to China lol)
中国在新建燃煤电厂、煤气化和核电站方面也处于领先地位。他们推行这种多元化的能源结构是为了减少其他国家对其能源主权的影响力，而不是出于利他主义的环保目的（你去过中国吗？哈哈）。
u/Mozambique_Sauce
Mozambique_Sauce
If you hear them change their tune you're paying them too much attention.
如果你听到他们改变了说法，说明你对他们太过关注了。
u/Wloak
Wloak
I'm a renewable fan, but there's a reason this happened and it isn't because China is paving the way.
China offered massive incentives to companies to build renewable energy plants, and announced they were ending them unless completed by a certain date. This led to companies building a ton of energy farms producing 1/10th of the expected output but getting the full credit because it was based on potential output. What gets reported is the total potential output and not the actual.
我支持可再生能源，但这事发生是有原因的，并不是因为中国在为此铺路。
中国曾向企业提供巨额补贴以鼓励其建设可再生能源电站，并宣布若未在特定日期前完工，将终止补贴。这导致许多企业建造了大量实际产量仅为预期产量十分之一的电站，却获得了全额补贴，因为补贴是基于潜在产量计算的。最终公布的是潜在总产量，而非实际产量。
Necessary-Music-6685
Emissions have been dropping in the US for two decades. China burns more coal than the rest of the world combined.
美国的碳排放量已经连续二十年下降。中国的煤炭消耗量比世界其他国家加起来还要多。
Fluffy-Rope-8719
Cool, what are their emissions per capita and what has been their emissions growth/shrinkage vs the US?
好的，他们的人均排放量是多少？与美国相比，他们的排放量增长/减少情况如何？
Ok-Assistant-1761
Estimates China: 8-9 tons CO2 per person US: 14-15 tons CO2 per person
China emits ~2x the gross amount but has 4.2x population. Source: trust me bro, found it on the internets.
估计中国人均二氧化碳排放量：8-9吨；美国人均二氧化碳排放量：14-15吨。
中国的二氧化碳排放总量约为美国的2倍，但人口却是美国的4.2倍。来源：相信我，兄弟，这是我在网上找到的。
u/Necessary-Music-6685
Necessary-Music-6685
Their emissions have been skyrocketing while the US’s have been in decline.
Did you know that China consumes more coal in a single year than the US has in its entire existence?
他们的排放量一直在飙升，而美国的排放量却在下降。
你知道吗？中国一年消耗的煤炭比美国建国以来消耗的煤炭还要多。
Space_Conductor
I do not know where this vehement defending of China came from on Reddit. Has to be bots slowly propagandizing people. Like, I get we hate trump. That's understandable but people act like America is the worst country in the world in everything.
Their foreign policy is abysmal right now but they are still an insanely diverse country and just about as free as you can get.
China is consistently near the bottom of the human rights index and America is consistently near the top.
Their are things good about China but A LOT of bad. Whereas (I believe) there is a lot of good in America but some bad.
I mean, just imagine people from mainland China saying the shit that Americans say about the government dya after day. They would shut. That. Shit. Down.
我不知道红迪上这股强烈的护华风潮是从哪儿来的。肯定是机器人慢慢地在煽动民众。我知道我们都讨厌特朗普，这可以理解，但人们现在好像觉得美国在所有方面都是世界上最糟糕的国家。
他们目前的外交政策糟糕透顶，但他们仍然是一个极其多元化的国家，而且几乎是你能想象到的最自由的国家之一。
中国的人权指数一直处于垫底位置，而美国的人权指数则一直处于前列。
中国有很多优点，但也有很多缺点。而（我认为）美国也有很多优点，但也有一些缺点。
我的意思是，想象一下，如果中国大陆的人每天都像美国人那样抨击政府，那会是什么景象？他们肯定会把那些破事儿都堵死。
u/liva608
liva608
I'm not defending their human rights. I never mentioned human rights. I only presented facts about emissions to correct the misinformation presented above. China can be bad at one thing and good at another.
我并非在捍卫他们的任泉。我从未提及任泉。我只是列举了排放方面的数据，以纠正上述错误信息。中国在某些方面可能表现不佳，但在另一些方面却表现出色。
Fluffy-Rope-8719
I don't know why you are conflating rational analysis with broad-spectrum support for China. You can recognize that they are advancing while the US is declining while still not preferring that outcome.
I agree with you, life under Chinese rule would likely be terrible if you aren't textbook perfect Han Chinese.
This doesn't change the fact that their advancement of renewable energy sources far exceeds that of the US, and China is incredibly well positioned to fill the global soft power void the US just ripped itself out of. Just on a power grid position alone China is crushing the US, which has many serious implications. But just sticking our fingers in our ears and screaming "nuh uh they're the bad guys" is counterproductive at best, and woefully destructive at worst.
我不明白你为什么把理性分析和对中国的广泛支持混为一谈。你可以承认中国在发展而美国在衰落，但你仍然可能并不希望出现这种结果。
我同意你的看法，如果你不是教科书上定义的完美汉族人，那么在中国的统治下生活可能会非常糟糕。
但这并不改变中国在可再生能源领域的发展远超美国的事实，而且中国完全有能力填补美国刚刚失去的全球软实力空白。仅就电网地位而言，中国就已遥遥领先于美国，这具有诸多深远的影响。
但是，如果我们捂住耳朵大喊“不不不，他们是坏人”，往好了说是适得其反，往坏了说是造成了极其严重的破坏。
Space_Conductor
"conflating" lol. yup, I'm on Reddit. I'm not conflating anything. There IS broad-spectrum support for China on Reddit in every. single. thread about China or America, this one included. Maybe it's bots, maybe the propaganda has worked. Idk. I personally love both countries and have always defended both countries but in this thread, america was being trashed again so I defend them. Next thread if China is bashed I will defend them.
“混淆”？哈哈。没错，我在红迪上。我没混淆任何东西。红迪上所有关于中国或美国的帖子，包括这个帖子，都存在对中国的广泛支持。也许是机器人，也许是宣传奏效了。我不知道。我个人热爱这两个国家，也一直支持它们，但在这个帖子里，美国又被抨击了，所以我才维护美国。如果下一个帖子里中国被抨击，我也会维护中国。
u/Ass4ssinX
Ass4ssinX
LOL American people are free? Sure, to be fleeced by big Capital.
People are defending China more now because more people actually looked into China. The West's propaganda just isn't as effective anymore.
哈哈，美国人自由了？当然，自由自在地被大资本榨取。
现在更多人维护中国，是因为更多人真正了解了中国。西方的宣传已经不再那么有效了。
joogabah
THEIR foreign policy is abysmal? the USA just launched another illegal aggressive war, the highest crime possible. Man you people have it totally upside down. Are YOU a state department bot?
他们的外交政策糟糕透顶？美国刚刚又发动了一场非法侵略战争，这是最严重的罪行。你们这些人完全搞反了。你是国务院的机器人吗？
u/Wonckay
Wonckay
The “their” in that comment refers precisely to the US.
那条评论中的“他们”指的正是美国。
u/Space_Conductor
Space_Conductor
What?! I agree and said their foreign policy is abysmal. I was talking about the US not China
什么？！我同意，我也说过他们的外交政策糟糕透顶。我指的是美国，不是中国。
u/Dramatic_Security3
Dramatic_Security3
Everything you've been told about China has come from the US and its proxies. Those human rights indexes are worthless if they're being created by American and European institutions. They frx western capitalist countries as morally superior, yet the countries that fall toward the bottom like the DRC and Sudan are controlled by puppets of those same capitalist regimes. The US literally has legal slavery, is disappearing people, and is engaged in multiple GENOCIDEs, yet it still gets a score of 81 from Freedom House.
People have started defending China because we've come to realize we've been lied to. I married a Chinese person, learned the language, spoke to the people there, and realized that everything I've been told about the country is false.
你所听到的关于中国的一切信息都来自美国及其代理人。如果人权指数是由美国和欧洲机构制定的，那么它们就毫无价值。
他们将西方资本主义国家描绘成道德优越的典范，然而像刚果民主共和国和苏丹这样排名垫底的国家，却被这些资本主义政权的傀儡所控制。美国明明存在合法的奴隶制，正在进行人口失踪，并犯下多起种族灭绝罪行，却仍然在自由之家的评分中获得了81分。
人们开始为中国辩护，是因为我们意识到自己一直被蒙在鼓里。我娶了一位中国人，学习了中文，与中国人交谈，然后意识到我之前听到的关于这个国家的一切都是假的。
u/t1010011010
t1010011010
Guess what happens if you go to prison in C. You also have to work, lol, is that legal slavery? If you get sent to a labor camp even more so
猜猜在C坐牢会发生什么？你还得劳动，哈哈，这算合法NU隶制吗？要是被送到劳改营就更糟了。
grundar
“people act like America is the worst country in the world in everything.”
“人们表现得好像美国在所有方面都是世界上最糟糕的国家。”
Edgelords gonna edge.
This isn't new -- angsty diatribes about how the US is the worst ever at everything go back to at least the 60s and Vietnam (see, for example, Chomsky criticizing America while shilling for the Khmer Rouge despite their actively-occurring genocidal massacres).
Most of the comments you're getting triggered by don't seem particularly informed about or interested in the details of China, as they're mainly interested in using China as a cudgel with which to beat America.
Since the main point is "America bad! (I'm so edgy!)", it's questionable whether attempting to engage with those comments will result in a good-faith response.
(For the edgelords, yes, I've been to China numerous times. It's not the worst ever, just like it's not the best ever -- false dichotomies are false.)
这并非新鲜事——关于美国在所有方面都是有史以来最差的愤懑之词至少可以追溯到 60 年代的越南战争时期（例如，乔姆斯基批评美国，同时为红色高棉摇旗呐喊，尽管红色高棉当时正在进行种族灭绝式的大屠杀）。
让你感到愤怒的大多数评论似乎对中国的细节并不特别了解或感兴趣，因为他们主要感兴趣的是利用中国作为打击美国的武器。
由于主要观点是“美国不好！（我好另类！）”，因此尝试回应这些评论是否会得到真诚的回应是值得怀疑的。
（致那些喜欢唱反调的人：是的，我去过中国很多次。它不是最糟糕的，就像它也不是最好的一样——非此即彼的说法是错误的。）
u/Space_Conductor
Space_Conductor
This can not be a real. I have never seen a more insanely Reddit comment in my life. How many times can you use edgelord??? Lol. If you are not a bot my dude, you need to reuate how you communicate online because what you typed is wildly over-written for a comment on a jack off website.
You may be right. I don't care anymore. You need help and if this is the type of stuff that gets uovoted then let's just say!!!. Big Yikes (typing this from my rented room in a tiny village in China) so yes, I have been here before the trolls come out!!!
这不可能是真的。我这辈子都没见过这么离谱的Reddit评论。你到底要用多少次“边缘人”这个词啊？？？哈哈。老兄，如果你不是机器人，那你真该好好反思一下你的网络交流方式了，因为你打的这些字，对于一个自慰网站来说，简直是胡扯到家了。
你说的或许有道理。我不在乎了。你需要帮助，如果这种帖子会被点踩，那我就直说了！！！真是太糟糕了（我现在在中国一个小村庄的租房里打字），所以，是的，在喷子出现之前，我就已经经历过这种事了！！！
